Why do they keep reinventing calibers?

[Bwana416]

I am sick of the 7mm Express Remington (really the old .280) and the .260 Remington which is just the ballistic twin of the excellent and deadly 6.5 x 55 MM Swedish.:confused:

It's the same gun with a new name!! This is like putting out a Chevy and calling it a Cadillac. Wait. They DID that in the early Eighties and it stank on ice.:mad:

-Ray

[Hi Ball]

It's a new nitch for the industry to sell GUNS simply put! Most of the younger generation doesn't know from beans really, they don't hear anyone talking about various calibers at the supper table like when I was a kid, or a conversation with Uncle Pete with Pop about his trusted tried and true 30-06 or his cousin's long time inherited mode 70 Winchester in .270 caliber.

I started hearing about firearms in school from my friends in the classroom who lived on farms and hunted etc. They ate what they shot and I was one of the very few that never had a .410 shotgun but I did have a .22 rifle in LR.

A very good example of the new calbier issue, would be those Winchester Short Mags! I think only the one bares merit if any at all and that is the .270 WSM, it is actually 200 fps faster than the older .270 Winchester. However, it also kicks more as well........equal trade off I suppose. Those true magnums were born back in the late 1950's and early 1960's. They have one heck of a track record to back them up and all areas of hunting and competition shooting as well.:)

[Altjaeger]

I am sick of the 7mm Express Remington (really the old .280) and the .260 Remington which is just the ballistic twin of the excellent and deadly 6.5 x 55 MM Swedish.:confused:

It's the same gun with a new name!! This is like putting out a Chevy and calling it a Cadillac. Wait. They DID that in the early Eighties and it stank on ice.:mad:

-Ray

For old farts like us to complain that ours were just as good in the old days and because "new" sells in the market place keeping the industry upon which we depend afloat. :D

[Bwana416]

I used to get looks at the range when I had an original Winchester Lo-Wall in .22 Hornet. It was so mild and quiet but ACCURATE that you could on a calm day pop chucks at 150 yards and a tad more till you ran out of ammo!! In an area where the "big" .22s and 6mms would be impractical the little Hornet was a big fish in a very small pond.:D

-Ray

[Gil Martin]

Cartridge selection is a personal matter. I agree that some rounds hold little or not interest for me. On the other hand, the .280 Remington is a great cartridge and I love it. All the best...
Gil

[Bwana416]

I like the .270 but the 7mm bullets are more efficient and available in more weights so the Remington is a fine cartridge. The 7mm Express is the SAME danged gun!!! WHY must the fix what ain't broke, then break it again and claim to be fixing it?

-Ray

[kenjs1]

I agree in part, especially when it comes to 7mm's. Jeesh how many do we need before we call it done??? Still, most of us like to tinker so another part of me recognizes it as the search for perfection...........which, in a fascinating piece of historical note was finally achieved in a factory round not so long ago with the introduction of the 260Rem. True story.

[Altjaeger]

I agree in part, especially when it comes to 7mm's. Jeesh how many do we need before we call it done???

I guess maybe when we catch up with the number of .308 bullet firing cartridges? You know like the .30M1 Carbine, .30 Remington, .30-30, .300 Savage, .300 Win Mag, .307 Win, .308 Win, .30-06 Springfield, .30-40 Craig, .300 H&H, .308 Norma Mag, .300 Weatherby, .303 Savage, .30 Belted Newton, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R and Iam sure I am forgetting a few besides all the wildcats and proprietory cartidges.:)

[kenjs1]

ok Altjaeger- then of course we have the intersection of the two behemoths! A veritable clash of theTitans - the 7mm-08...its 30....its a 7....its a dessert topping. :) (OLD SNL reference in there in case you are wondering). Hey maybe I can get it in a magnum!

[southtexas]

I guess maybe when we catch up with the number of .308 bullet firing cartridges? You know like the .30M1 Carbine, .30 Remington, .30-30, .300 Savage, .300 Win Mag, .307 Win, .308 Win, .30-06 Springfield, .30-40 Craig, .300 H&H, .308 Norma Mag, .300 Weatherby, .303 Savage, .30 Belted Newton, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R and Iam sure I am forgetting a few besides all the wildcats and proprietory cartidges.:)

HOW...could you fergit the 300WSM and 300RSAUM???:)

[Altjaeger]

HOW...could you fergit the 300WSM and 300RSAUM???:)

Because they are too new and I am an old F++t?:D

[Bushman]

I stopped at a sporting goods store out in MT. along the Milk River last week and was asking the owner about hunting and the rifles around there. I heard about all the magnums and the potential for long range shooting. After he realized that I was not there to buy a .300 WSM and the commercial was over, he said that most guys around there just used a .270 or a .30-06.

[skb2706]

Anyone who handloads for both can assure you that a 6.5 x 55 and a .260 are not the same. One is most definitely a short action round the other is not. There was a reason...............

[GF.]

Fer whut? :confused:

What's 'good' about the .260 is what's 'good' about the 7-08 -- it puts a full-toot load for the Mauser into a factory load that won't fit into an old Mauser made of cheap steel that would blow under the full-toot pressure, so a non-loader like me can get all the velocity that the Mauser can provide.... assuming that I'm OK with a lighter bullet.

What's 'bad' about the .260 is what's 'bad' about the 7-08 - it puts that full-toot Mauser load into a short action case which won't handle the heavier bullets that the Mausers were born to shoot.

And the reason the .260 and 7-08 have done OK commercially is that here in the US, speed sells better than sectional density, even when we've got demonstrably too much of one and too little of the other.:rolleyes: Europeans don't know any better, so they keep shooting those too-slow, too-heavy bullets at everything up to and including moose, and since the moose don't know any better either, they just keep on tipping over just as they always have.... Of course, it doesn't hurt that the Euros have amped up the potency of the old Mauser rounds and that they have rifles that will shoot them without costing the shooter any favorite bits of his anatomy....

And I think one other reason there are so many choices is that there were always so many die-hard fans of each of the major rifle makers. Maybe, at one time, it would have been unthinkable to buy (or sell!) a Remington rifle in .270 Win, or a Winnie in .280 Rem, so we ended up with things like the .284 Winchester answering to the .280 and the 6mm Rem going head to head with the .243....

And JMO, damn few of the cartridges introduced in the last 100 years would have stood any chance at all if we weren't blessed in the US with so many guys (like me! :D ) who don't reload. But since every shooter has his own ideas about what a round should and should not do, it turns out there is a market for each and all of the hair-splitting differences between all of these ever-so-slightly 'different' rounds, whereas if we all reloaded, we'd just tweak the loads to do exactly what we had in mind and keep shooting the same old rifles 'til the barrels fell off.

[skb2706]

They really don't reinvent calibers but they have certainly reinvented many chamberings. The biggest reason would have to be to spark new interest and to those who don't know any better "if its new it must be better".

[Ol` Joe]

Fer whut? :confused:

What's 'good' about the .260 is what's 'good' about the 7-08 -- it puts a full-toot load for the Mauser into a factory load that won't fit into an old Mauser made of cheap steel that would blow under the full-toot pressure, so a non-loader like me can get all the velocity that the Mauser can provide.... assuming that I'm OK with a lighter bullet.

What's 'bad' about the .260 is what's 'bad' about the 7-08 - it puts that full-toot Mauser load into a short action case which won't handle the heavier bullets that the Mausers were born to shoot.

And the reason the .260 and 7-08 have done OK commercially is that here in the US, speed sells better than sectional density, even when we've got demonstrably too much of one and too little of the other.:rolleyes: Europeans don't know any better, so they keep shooting those too-slow, too-heavy bullets at everything up to and including moose, and since the moose don't know any better either, they just keep on tipping over just as they always have.... Of course, it doesn't hurt that the Euros have amped up the potency of the old Mauser rounds and that they have rifles that will shoot them without costing the shooter any favorite bits of his anatomy....

And I think one other reason there are so many choices is that there were always so many die-hard fans of each of the major rifle makers. Maybe, at one time, it would have been unthinkable to buy (or sell!) a Remington rifle in .270 Win, or a Winnie in .280 Rem, so we ended up with things like the .284 Winchester answering to the .280 and the 6mm Rem going head to head with the .243....

And JMO, damn few of the cartridges introduced in the last 100 years would have stood any chance at all if we weren't blessed in the US with so many guys (like me! :D ) who don't reload. But since every shooter has his own ideas about what a round should and should not do, it turns out there is a market for each and all of the hair-splitting differences between all of these ever-so-slightly 'different' rounds, whereas if we all reloaded, we'd just tweak the loads to do exactly what we had in mind and keep shooting the same old rifles 'til the barrels fell off.

From the VihtaVouri 2nd edition;

6.5x55
CIP max pressure = 47,800psi
SAAMI max = 46,000 CUP. According to Speer #13 pg 203 46,000 CUP = 51,000 psi

The 3rd edition lists a higher CIP figure then the 2nd
7x57
CIP max 56,500 psi vs 51,000psi from the 2nd edition
SAAMI max = 46,000CUP/51,000 psi is the same in both manuals.

It appears there is very little difference in the CIP and SAAMI std.

As for the ability to push heavy bullets;

The VV 3rd edition shows loads for the 6.5x55 with a 155gr "Mega" at a max velocity of 2454 fps. The same bullet in the 260 Rem in the manual runs 2551 fps, 100 fps difference in favor of the 260 :eek:
No 160 gr loads are listed for the 260 in either book but, Hornady in their newest shows a 160gr hitting 2600 fps and Lyman has 6 loads in their #48 doing over 2500 fps with 160s. I don`t think the Swede has anything on the 260 with heavy bullets that you or any game animal would notice.

The same book list 175 gr Speer mag Tips at2357 fps, and the 708 driving them (175gr Mag Tip) at 2298 fps. 50 fps difference with the 7x57 winning this race.

The main reasons I see for the 260 and 7-08 in this country is the availability of cheap brass that can be formed for them vs the harder to find brass for the Swede and 7x57, along with the abibity to squeeze them in short stiff actions for target shooting, or rifles like the M7 and modern levers such as the BLR for the hunter. The 708 was originally used for metalic shooting and a shorter cartridge slips nicely in single shot handguns too.

BTW I`ve in the pasted weighted both a 260 (Rem) and a Swede case (Norma) filled to the mouth with water and found ~ 3 gr difference in capacity with the Swede taking a little more then the 260. I`ve had multiple rifles in both chamberings and can`t see a bit of difference in either with any bullet wgt at similar pressures as measured with a pressure trace. All this backs up your thoughts that all we have are different names on the same old cartridges.

I do feel though if all we had is the few rounds our grandfathers grew up with how bored we all be....Non-reloaders like you would still be shooting a 30-30 or `06 once a year at deer while only the reloaders would be having all the fun shooting the latest wizzbang wildcat :D

[rimrock]

the longer I hunt the more I appreciate the rifles I own in calibers

44mag
257 roberts
340 wby
375 H&H
358 win
450 marlin

and the LESS I bother to read magazine articles on the new wizbang super mags

[kenjs1]

GF _ I dunno. All I ever hear about the 260 centers around its sectional density. Well that and low recoil. I keep thinking I will load lighter bullets to gain some speed but the 140 Gamekings work like magic and I am not taking long shots so why bother - right? Guess we are a sight full of tinkerers. My motto has become "My rifle shoots great- think I 'll fix it."