just how important IS having fast repeat fire capability

[rimrock]

I had a recent conversation with a guy at a local range when he saw me pull a browning 78 single shot out of my rifle case, he asked me how I could even think of hunting with out at least a bolt action so ID have a quick second shot, available.
now Ive hunted with single shots,lever guns, semi autos, bolt and slide action rifles for years, and Ive rarely found any gun that's accurate and of a decent caliber for the game hunted needs a quick second shot capability, but this guy was insistent that quick follow-up shot capability was critical.....the more I thought back on many hunts the more, I struggled to think of even once when a single shot rifle would not have proven just as effective as a bolt, lever or slide action , or where the type of action had any effect on my results at all.
Ive used a RUGER or BROWNING single shot in calibers ranging from 6mm remington,25/06, 300 wby, 375 H&H, even 458 win at times, and I can,t recall a single time, I used a single shoot rifle,that I could not have reloaded well in time for a second shoot if I needed one, or even needing one for that matter, and its not that Im a great shot, I just don,t fire until Im really sure of my target and have a good shot angle inside a decent range, and can clearly see the anatomy or I don,t shoot. now Ive had ELK spin and run a few yards after being hit, but Ive never worried, I mean if your sure you placed your shot correctly they rarely go more than 30 yards, but then if you use a 340wby, 375 H&H, 35 whelen,45/70 etc on ELK,they don,t go far, and a 6mm rem , 270 win,or 257 roberts does deer ok inside reasonable ranges
has anyone here ever lost game because they could not get a second shot off fast enough?

[DancesWithKnives]

I once hit a large hog right in the boiler room with a .338. He spun around and charged.

Another time I shot a hog that was part of a group. The group apparently heard the echo of the report off a nearby hillside and they all ran toward me. Although they probably would have run right by me, I wanted to drop a couple in a short period of time.

The one time I hunted hogs with a guide, I drilled one through the shoulders with a .338 but it still ran fast for heavy brush. The guide was hollering for an immediate second shot (which prevented it from reaching the thick brush).

I've never needed a follow-up shot on deer.

DWK

[I have a Shiloh Sharps and a Browning 1885 Hi-Wall, both in 45-70, that I would use without hesitation. But I would adjust my tactics on hogs.]

[dave-t.]

The only time I really needed to shoot a deer more than once, I had bullets that didn't expand. I got no reaction from the deer, and that was a first for me, so I shot, and shot again, all three being good shots, but the deer never acted hit, until he wobbled a bit and finally fell. That was the first deer to just stand there after I shot it with a 300wm, and I didn't know what to make of it, so I kept shooting. Some buck fever helped on that decision, 149gross/144net.

One other deer was shot on the run too far back, and after it stopped running, I put one in her head.

Both deer were mortally shot, but considering the circumstances, and 'the heat of the moment', insurance shot/s were taken. I don't think I would have lost either deer, but I do know the one shot in particular dropped the deer faster.

[Twanger]

My experience gun hunting is something like:

a) 80% of the deer run like hell and you'll never get another shot until they fall over dead. Then what's the point of shooting them again?

b) 15% of deer drop on the spot or within a few feet and if you're just a little bit patient you don't need a second shot.

c) 5% of deer will run, or perhaps even just fall down, and jump back up and run again. This is a tough one, because most of the time (say 80%) a downed deer ain't getting back up, so what's the point in shooting him again? If he does jump back up then you're back to situation a) blasting away at a rapidly bouncing flag that is retreating into the distance. Not a high-percentage situation.

I'm not a big fan of repeaters used against deer. One shot, one kill. My experience has been that if I can't make the first shot under ideal conditions on an unalerted deer, that I don't have a snowball's chance in a hot over hitting one that's taking 20-foot leaps through the air.

Conversely, for critters with teeth that know how to use them, I'm a big fan of firepower. :rolleyes:

[LE]

I am like you in that if I don't feel the first shot will do the job I won't take it. The situation did happen where I shot a deer in the leg "not the shoulder" & I could tell I did make a hit, just not a good one. The second shot was good & litterly dropped the deer in his tracks. In other woods a good unsupported shot can turn into a bad one. The second shot got the deer before he went over the hill to parts unknown. So in other words the sure shot isn't always so. By-the-way I also hunt with a muzzleloader & there is no fast follow up shot with them.

[tommyt]

Rim
Two guys talking one was a HUNTER the Other a Shooter
The hunter to me is the better man the shooter suffers from many things that cause him the need for following shots,If he had said he was a deer dog hunter , he would have some need for follow ups,
Heck I know a guy who can shoot two clays with a single 20 gage
I started with a Lever,went to a rem jamomatic (it was as good as any single shot:D)a pump and a Bolt,I don't know (remember) If I ever took but one follow up , I did however shoot 3 deer in one sitting 2 in succession and the chasing buck a Half hour later I had a 308 Bolt for that adventure ,Now I mainly use the contender or encore mostly under 16"
The Old I get the slower and Surer I get.
as the Brit says Don't worry how hard you hit ,Hit it correct
Tommyt


I had a recent conversation with a guy at a local range when he saw me pull a browning 78 single shot out of my rifle case, he asked me how I could even think of hunting with out at least a bolt action so ID have a quick second shot, available.
now Ive hunted with single shots,lever guns, semi autos, bolt and slide action rifles for years, and Ive rarely found any gun that's accurate and of a decent caliber for the game hunted needs a quick second shot capability, but this guy was insistent that quick follow-up shot capability was critical.....the more I thought back on many hunts the more, I struggled to think of even once when a single shot rifle would not have proven just as effective as a bolt, lever or slide action , or where the type of action had any effect on my results at all.
Ive used a RUGER or BROWNING single shot in calibers ranging from 6mm remington,25/06, 300 wby, 375 H&H, even 458 win at times, and I can,t recall a single time, I used a single shoot rifle,that I could not have reloaded well in time for a second shoot if I needed one, or even needing one for that matter, and its not that Im a great shot, I just don,t fire until Im really sure of my target and have a good shot angle inside a decent range, and can clearly see the anatomy or I don,t shoot. now Ive had ELK spin and run a few yards after being hit, but Ive never worried, I mean if your sure you placed your shot correctly they rarely go more than 30 yards, but then if you use a 340wby, 375 H&H, 35 whelen,45/70 etc on ELK,they don,t go far, and a 6mm rem , 270 win,or 257 roberts does deer ok inside reasonable ranges
has anyone here ever lost game because they could not get a second shot off fast enough?

[kenjs1]

I think it depends entirely on what I am hunting. For Deer the speed of a followup shot has been a non factor -but I will list a point on that in a second. If hunting hogs I think it matters a pretty good bit. A poorly hit hog can be dangerous for one thing so there is that to consider, plus they travel in groups and oftentimes taking more than one is a goal. For varmints such as coyote I think fast followup ability is also a plus. They can surprise you close in, making it tough to acquire in a scope's field of view, or they can be far away so that wind and bullet drop might factor into a 1st shot miss- but in any case they seem to nearly always be on the move. Quick 2nd shot, though I imagine a lot less successful, offer another chance at least. The point I alluded to earlier is this - if deer hunting, you never know when hogs or coyotes (or other stuff) might come into the mix so the question is interpretive if you catch my meaning. This make sense to anyone else?

[Altjaeger]

On a scale of 1 to 10 I would rate it about a two. However, I have a son who has twice done a quick left and right on deer and once on hogs so I am sure he would rate it higher. :D

I would not feel handicapped at all with a single shot for deer.

[tincan]

a) 80% of the deer run like hell and you'll never get another shot until they fall over dead. Then what's the point of shooting them again?

bingo.

[Sabre]

A repeater is awfuly handy for taking multiples out of a group. I've put down as many as 3 deer in so many seconds on more than one occasion and I'd say that would be nearly impossible with a single shot. Unforseen bullet deflections are another instance where a quick repeat shot can save a lost deer or a wholelotta trackin'. I once had an unseen twig turn what should have been a slam-dunk broadside lunger into a pefect broadside through the hips.:eek: Naturally the deer instantly dropped in the hindquarters and proceeded to scoot away at about warp 3 with it's front feet while dragging it's crippled caboose behind. A fast followup with my Marlin 30-30 put a quick end to it's escape plans. I'd say those who see no value in quick repeat fire have lived an incredibly charmed life and/or haven't nearly as much experience as they'd like to believe.:rolleyes:

[southtexas]

"I'd say those who see no value in quick repeat fire have lived an incredibly charmed life and/or haven't nearly as much experience as they'd like to believe"

...or hunt in a different area with different conditions than you.:rolleyes:

[Silvertip]

Once again...it depends on where and what type of hunting your doing.If your stand hunting where deer are motionless or grazing like cows in a field then most likely if your any good at all one shot should be all that is required.
However if your in thick woods doing deer drives where the game is often on the move when your chance occurs the odds of making that first shot decreases greatly.If you do happen to miss your first shot the sudden boom can stop a deer dead in its tracks giving you a nice standing opportunity.This is when you appreciate a rifle that offers a quick followup to down that monster buck of a lifetime before he bolts. I have seen this happen and I believe if all I had was a single shot it would get wrapped around a tree faster than a whitetail could raise a flag.

[Sabre]

...or hunt in a different area with different conditions than you.:rolleyes:

Well Tex, I'd say if someone has only hunted in a place or manner where there is no possibilty for an unforseen bullet deflection his experience is pretty damned limited.:rolleyes:

[Altjaeger]

Well Tex, I'd say if someone has only hunted in a place or manner where there is no possibilty for an unforseen bullet deflection his experience is pretty damned limited.:rolleyes:

Or it represents the norm for that persons hunting and not the total of his experience. Or more likely in my opinion just a bit more discriminating in the shots they will take no matter what the conditions being perfectly satisfied to let an animal walk than not eliminate every reasonably possible error. Of course one persons reasonable maybe another's atrocious. :D

[Sabre]

Or it represents the norm for that persons hunting and not the total of his experience. Or more likely in my opinion just a bit more discriminating in the shots they will take no matter what the conditions being perfectly satisfied to let an animal walk than not eliminate every reasonably possible error. Of course one persons reasonable maybe another's atrocious. :D

Whut ?:confused:

[Hi Ball]

In the act of deer hunting to harvest a nice buck, I would give it a possible 3 or 4 on a scale of one to 10. Now that is taking in all the various types of terrain throughout the USA where deer hunters go to hunt there deer.

In combat, I rank it very high indeed but that is another subject for another time I suppose. Something I would rather not dwell on at the moment thank you!

In the hunting of dangerous game, I would have to say extremely important, even though I know there have been some, who have hunted dangerous game animals with a Ruger #1 rifle. However, they had a PH or backup person or two near by their side.

My tool of hunting is a model 70 Winchester bolt action rifle, in several calibers all the way up to a .475 diameter bullet. It is what feels the best in my hands these past 45 years or so when going to the woods or fields.:)

[southtexas]

Well Tex, I'd say if someone has only hunted in a place or manner where there is no possibilty for an unforseen bullet deflection his experience is pretty damned limited.:rolleyes:

Well, Sab: I've hunted lots of places in the last 50+ years. Some where bullet deflection was a concern, and some not. Not a lot of brush in pronghorn country, or northern Quebec caribou, or across beanfields in the south, or oatfields, or down senderos, or across canyons in the Rockies, or....

Can't, and won't speak for your little corner of NY.:rolleyes: But I can't recall the last time that a fast followup shot was needed.

[rimrock]

I just timed myself loading and firing five primed/fired empty cases with bullets seated, as a test of reload speed, with the browning 78 single shot just to see how fast I could fire get a decent sight picture and fire again for three shots, now granted theres no recoil, but I did have the sight picture dead steady between shots , and I averaged according to the wife and stop watch, right at 2.8-2.9 seconds per shot and thats pulling the cartridges out of my sleeve band , cambering and firing,, ejecting, etc. now I can load and fire faster , just not with a firm sight picture.
so obviously a slide or bolt actions not ALL THAT much faster when carefully AIMED fire is required

[Badger]

rimrock,

I think having a fast repeat fire capability is like the spare tire on my truck: Better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

I was amused by your stop watch verified repeat fire with your single shot rifle. I guess you Florida folks do not wear gloves. Please repeat your single shot repeat fire with gloves on to simulate how Northern folks hunt in zero degree Decembers.

I hunt with bow, muzzleloader and both single shot and bolt rifles. (semi-autos are not legal for hunting in PA.) I don't know an archer who hunts with ONE arrow or a muzzleloader with just one load in the musket. I have needed a second shot from my M70 .30-06 on deer to keep a well-hit deer from going into the adjacent farm to be taken by meat hunters. Well-hit deer may be dead, but they can still cover some ground before they drop. My favorite single shot is a M1884 Trapdoor .45/70 rifle with 500 grain cast handloads. A second shot has not yet been needed for the .45/70 on deer.

Badger

[Sabre]

Well, Sab: I've hunted lots of places in the last 50+ years. Some where bullet deflection was a concern, and some not. Not a lot of brush in pronghorn country, or northern Quebec caribou, or across beanfields in the south, or oatfields, or down senderos, or across canyons in the Rockies, or....

Can't, and won't speak for your little corner of NY.:rolleyes: But I can't recall the last time that a fast followup shot was needed.

It might surprise you to know that, although I've never hunted there, I have travelled all over the West several times and have spent considerable time in Montana {lived and worked there for a short time}, Wyoming, Idaho the Dakota's, Washington and Oregon. I'm very familiar with the flora and fauna and the terrain/conditions under which the indigenous game lives and is hunted. The funny thing is, I watched one of the "pro's" on the outdoor channel flub a shot across open prairie on the outdoor channel just the other day. He didn't seem to have a clue what went wrong but he took the shot from a prone position and it was quite obvious that he shot through some low growing vegetation just a few feet in front of his muzzle and most likely had a bullet deflection. The same thing has happened to me a time or two when shooting at woodchucks across open fields. Of course, I know you Texicans are so unneringly infallible and supernaturally charmed that you are completely above EVER having an "unseen" obstruction give you any problems under any circumstances whatsoever.:rolleyes: For those of us who live and hunt in the real world it's a good idea to hedge our bets and expect the unexpected. Since a single shot offers NO ADVANTAGES over a repeater and only leaves you with the DISADVANTAGE of a slow second shot, {and yes, rimrocks 2.9 seconds between shots is sloooooow} I can see no practical reason to ever hinder onesself with the single shooter.

[southtexas]

Sabre:

I took my first buck in '55. Have hunted every year since. Have never needed a "fast second shot". So I'll say it again, I disagree with your comment, to wit:

"I'd say those who see no value in quick repeat fire have lived an incredibly charmed life and/or haven't nearly as much experience as they'd like to believe"

And I can assure you that, while I have been richly blessed, I have by no means lead a charmed life.

BTW, don't own a single shot rifle. Usually use bolt actions, occasionally pull our the old pre64 M94...but not because it offers "fast second shots"

[Sabre]

Sabre:I took my first buck in '55. Have hunted every year since. Have never needed a "fast second shot". So I'll say it again, I disagree with your comment, to wit:

"I'd say those who see no value in quick repeat fire have lived an incredibly charmed life and/or haven't nearly as much experience as they'd like to believe"

Well then I'd say you've been very lucky and/or haven't shot a whole lotta game in thickly wooded terrain in your lifetime. Either that or you simply won't admit or don't/didn't recognize a situation in which a quick second shot could have prevented a lost animal or long tracking job, or would have allowed the taking of multiple animals in rapid succession. I killed my first deer in '69 and have taken a considerable number since. Although a single shot would have done me fine 98% of the time there have been a few instances where availability of quick repeat fire has allowed me to take game or quickly finish wounded game that would have been virtually impossible with a single shot rifle. Since there is no disadvantage to a repeater in weight, portability or accuracy I'll gladly carry one in preference to a single shot for that once or twice in a hundred times it'll allow me to put more game in the bag or prevent a lost animal/long tracking job or a long drag out of a steep ravine.

[Herne]

Nor me ST Just get it right and one is all you need. In any case, the first shot is always the best opportunity. If one can't make that one stick, the rest of the mag blasted off into woodland is probalby not going to get a better result!!!

I did once shoot 8 deer, with 8 rounds in a minute or so - in heavy woodland. May not be all that fast , but its still more deer than many yourside can kill in a season!

Most of the time all follow up shots do is hit what they are aimed at- the scenery.

I always worked on the earhole principle. You hear one shot - good. 2 shots well spaced, probably better. Two shots quick - trouble. More than 2 shots quick - a real effing mess that's going to take bigtime sorting and is guaranteed to result in trashed carcasses.

Perhaps some are good at the follow up, but I never yet met one - well not one that was as good in reality as they claimed to be at the bar.

So I wouldn't trouble with a lever gun for its claimed rapid fire or handling, and I never bothered to load more than 3 in the magazine, and I'm mindful that some of the most expert shots I have seen in action used single shot break guns - didn't seem to go home empty handed much..

[Bowhunter57]

a) 80% of the deer run like hell and you'll never get another shot until they fall over dead. Then what's the point of shooting them again?

If there's a point to be made, it would be a humane kill.

It also depends on the area you're hunting. In a high pressure hunting area, it's very important to get the deer, hog, elk, etc. on the ground. Another 100 yards could be the difference between getting to tag an animal or watching someone else tag it.

Shot placement is everything. :cool:

I shot a deer with a slug gun that passed through the top of the heart / bottom of the lungs and it only went 40 yards. In the split seconds after the shot was made, I recovered from the recoil and was back on the deer for a second shot. I passed and let it go. As it turned out, the deer zigged and zagged and dropped. Looking back, I feel it was a mistake and should've taken that second shot. Reason being: it was the deer gun season and often there's little or no tracking, as the next person over the ridge, across the creek, etc. will drop it and tag it. :p

My Dad shot a nice 8 pt. buck, in the shoulders, at 50 yards with a .444 Marlin. The shot knocked it off of its' feet. As soon as he could lever a second shot, it was up and running again. The first shot had passed through both lungs. However, it ran over the hill (75 yards) and 2 guys cut him down with .30-30s. A second shot could've put him on the ground perminantly, but a second shot didn't connect. :(

I'm a firm believer in second shots...no matter the type/size of the game. :)

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

[Sabre]

I always worked on the earhole principle. You hear one shot - good. 2 shots well spaced, probably better. Two shots quick - trouble.

My 2001 buck proves your earhole principle dead wrong. The day I killed him I was hunting a brush choked area above Cayuga lake when I heard deer busting brush and headed my way. He broke into view about 35 yards to my left front and was headed toward a STEEP bank { just 10 yards to my right} that goes almost straight down to the lake shore. That bank drops roughly 400 feet right to the waters edge and previous experience has proven it's no place you want to drag a deer out of.:eek: Anyway, I swung with the buck and touched one off. No reaction to the shot whatsoever so I racked the slide {12 gauge pump slug gun}, adjusted my aim to the base of his neck and hit the trigger again, just 30 feet before he would have dropped over the edge. Bingo ! He rolled up like a shotgunned cottontail right on the edge of that damned cliff. Later examination of the deer and the kill site showed my first shot had hit just behind the shoulder, the second shot broke his neck and the distance he travelled between the first and second shot {at a dead run} was less than 50 feet. That second shot saved me one helluvalot of hard dragging and I'm darn glad I was carrying a repeater that day. Now, there may or may not be many hunters who can make shots like that but I can and have on numerous occasions and I refuse to be shackled by your or anyone else's shortcomings.;) For those who can't, perhaps if you'd spent 1/10th the time I have shooting running cottontails out from in front of howling beagles with a .22 rifle, you might not find a running whitetail quite so tough.

[Hink]

In the time it takes someone with a awkward to load single shot to load it takes time away from picking the next spot in front of the deer to kill it. I don't care if its 1.5 or 2.9 or 3.4 its eating up your window of time you have before that deer tops the ridge or gets out of sight. Its lost shot opportunities as the deer passed through openings while you were fiddling with your rig. Its the difference in a bullet deflection going from a lost deer to a deer that is down.

I've cut brush with model 70s, jamomatics, 760s, and a weatherby that was so fine most bucks dropped dead at the sight of it. I've recovered parts of my first bullet in places i wasn't aiming but the second bullet hit where I was or I'd have never known about the first shot.

They have their place in the woods, in high pressure areas, and if you like them.

I've been using a jammomatic the past few years on really bad days as its hard to feel bad about laying it in the boat and heading up the lake or bad about rain or snow all over a $200 rifle that shoots good and has never jammed. Of course if you keep it clean, treat your magazine right and never load more than 3 in the mag it won't jam. I still try to pump it at times but I'm gradually getting over it.

Its all about whatever floats your boat when you go out. Carry what you have confidence in and enjoy using in your hunting areas.

[Smokey]

I agree with Sabre in that if you can shoot more than one deer in a day a repeater is the more efficient rifle. But as Herne and many other people stated your best shot will be your first shot in most cases. Your odds of good placement decrease with each shot. Even out here in the west when it used to be if you missed the first shot at a mule deer you waited a few seconds and it would stop in the open to see where you were and you had a good second shot. Doesn't happen any more, they now keep running.

I would not feel under gunned with a single shot. I also have no problem letting a deer or elk walk when a good shot is not presented. If they are here today they will be around somewhere tomorrow.

When hunting with a handgun I feel I only have one shooting opportunity, and the same with bow and black powder hunting. I have no problem with that.

[southtexas]

"Well then I'd say you've been very lucky and/or haven't shot a whole lotta game in thickly wooded terrain in your lifetime. Either that or you simply won't admit or don't/didn't recognize a situation in which a quick second shot could have prevented a lost animal or long tracking job, or would have allowed the taking of multiple animals in rapid succession"



Sabre:

One last time:

What amazes me is how, without knowing me or the way I hunt or the anything about the kind of country I hunt in, you can make such sweeping assumptions and then reach such conclusions base on zero data. Reminds me of the old saying: "often wrong, but never in doubt".

For you and where you hunt and your local conditions, a fast 2nd shot might be advantageous. For me, and perhaps many others, a fast second shot just ain't of much value. The whole world is not like upstate NY.

[Sabre]

What amazes me is how, without knowing me or the way I hunt or the anything about the kind of country I hunt in, you can make such sweeping assumptions and then reach such conclusions base on zero data. Reminds me of the old saying: "often wrong, but never in doubt"

What amazes me is how full of crap you are. It all goes back to that lack of experience I mentioned in my first post. You may think you have tons of it because you've hunted for a long time or in several different states but if you've always used the same method in similar terrain you don't. How do I know ? Because if you'd ever hunted coyotes in front of hounds you'd damn well KNOW a hunting situation where a repeater is unquestionably superior to a single shot and WILL put more game on the ground. Likewise if you'd participated in many organized deer drives, party hunted {where you're expected to drop as many deer as you can as quickly as you can for the good of the party} or even went beagling for cottontails with a .22.

[southtexas]

Well, gosh, I thought we were talking abut deer hunting. But let's see. When I hunt doves or ducks, I use either a double, pump or autoloader. When I hunt hogs, I have used pump and autoloading shotguns, AR15's, auto pistols, and scope-sighted rifles, as the situation dictates. For calling varmints (primarily coyotes and bobcats), I'll use either shotgun or rifle depending on the terrain.

But back to deer. If I hunted in your country, based on what you have said, I'd probably use my M94, or Dad's ol' 740 30/06. I have nothing against using firearms with fast repeat fire capability. Just think one ought to use the best tool for the job at hand. Which in deer hunting often (but no ALWAYS) means a bolt action is better suited, at least where I hunt.

I think I'm bored with this conversation, adios.

[Bowhunter57]

The only reason that I don't care for single shot weapons is that IF you miss that first shot, you have to take your eyes off of the animal to reload. I don't like to take my eyes off of the animal, period.

Even if I'm bowhunting, I know my bow well enough to get a second arrow out of the quiver, but will wait until the animal is either down or standing still to put it on the string.

Perhaps it's just something to get used to, but I've never cared for single shot firearms. :) For those that like single shot firearms, I say that's great and I wish them all the best. There are some very nice single shot weapons out there to choose from and they all get the job done. :cool:

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

[Bushman]

"Has anyone here ever lost game because they could not get a second shot off fast enough?" Well not on deer, but then I've not lost one ever that I've hit with a firearm. I can say that having a faster and more quietly fed second or third round through a semi-auto has given me a better standing shot when I got brush deflection with the first shot. As far as I'm concerned, a guy has an air tight reason for missing a shot if they get brush deflection. The smarter, older deer where I hunt are very security conscious and they don't give you much to look at for very long. I do have to say that I felt more the need to use my 742 .308 carbine when I was in my limiting out stage of my deer hunting. I have had to shoot more than once with a bolt action too, but the noise of chambering another round put the deer into motion and resulted in a tougher shot.

The one deer that does come to mind was a very large buck that hung up in the thick cover out in front of me. Try as I might I could not see enough to get a decent shot. He knew something was up and when he came out of there, he came out at a full run. I had a bolt action that day and knew that I would have only one shot. I waited too long and never did try the shot. If I would have had my 742, I think that I would have gotten that deer because I would have had the confidence to shoot in the first place.

I read a line in a magazine once that stuck with me. "A bolt action is a single shot with a convenient place to store cartridges." That said, most of my deer hunting these days IS with a bolt action because I prefer to post and take my chances with one well aimed shot. WI. is full of hunters and in the more crowded areas the deer are often on the move. It is very typical to hear multiple shots and you know that those are not coming from a bolt action. The shot presentations are more like bird hunting and not many guys use a bolt action for bird hunting.

[Herne]

Come on Sabre- that's the exception that proves the rule - the rule that even though an animal is clinically dead (H&L behind the shoulder) you cannot guarantee that it will go down on the spot. There was no need of a second shot to put him down. Going down he was- just not conveniently, and bullets are not clairvoyant.

-------------------------------------- Just to show that "you" is the general "you" as in "anyone".

Personally I believe that such circumstances - gullies, ravines, boundaries, heavy cover are one in the neck country, and I wouldn't piss about H&L. Just smack him in the neck in the first place, and put him down on the spot. (Taxidermists, if that's the worry, have plenty of capes)

I have always found, if one misses - which is but rarely and then due to some unseen obstruction - either the deer just whirls and is gone. Or it will hang about unknowing long enough for a good slow second aimed shot. There is little point in whanging rounds off in heavy cover - because the chances of a hit (except on the cover) are vanishingly small. There's no point in the open, because all one will do is hasten a deer that might stop and turn to look. There are exceptions of course, but they are not common enough to warrant selecting a style of gun on that basis.

The real problem in this is simply that many do not have the belief in their shot and the cartridge. Once that deer has a hole in the chest, it's dead and going down. There's no point in putting another in it, except in very rare and unusual circumstances.(Like a dodgy shot resulting in a creased spine - but then you know that's happened because of the reaction. Not btw some other wound, because left its going to stop very quickly if followed up correctly)

Perhaps I could make 2 points - one very real and one lighthearted.

1. No one is going to make a market hunter if he can't believe in his shot. If you can't take your eyes of the one you have shot before it goes down, you are going to end up with a very thin bank balance. Extra rounds in the magazine are for the next target - not mincing one that clinically dead!OK some would argue that they wouldn't want to be a market hunter- fair enough, but they still want to be classed as "good". Well if you can't hit something the size of a deer's chest reliably you ain't that good!!

2. If you don't believe in your shot, and some here clearly don't, then why not buy a machine gun and make a decent job of that first strike. Rather than try to make a repeater into something it isn't, just give him a burst from the outset. Saves a lot of grief. :)

-------------

I don't actually relate to the deflections in heavy cover argument. In and out the bracken and rhododenrons, all the grass stems, often well after sunset in woodland. Decent scope, and the ability to hit a very small mark. You find him in the binos, you don't need to see more than a few square inches, and you put your cross, (muntjac type close in) close in, at the top of the hole in the cover, because you know the bullet will be under the cross and will miss the obstructions. . I have missed a couple or so, usually from being off balance trying ot lean round cover, but I never needed a second round or banked on having one. Its just a matter of hunting in close enough, not letting the deer know you are there and taking him unawares. Then you have all the time in the world, because he isn't going to run away if he doesn't know you are there.

[Chuck S]

I've shot a few deer and on my first used that second shot. I was tracking a herd of deer, when a bruiser of a Whitetail, not seeing me, came into view from my right at about 20 yds. The first shot was quick but then deer got his head back up and started to move. Where I was, with other hunters around, property boundaries, etc I knew a deer that went very far might be lost so wanted him down on the spot. Another quick neck shot from my lever gun and he died on the spot. Seems that the first bullet, a Core Loct had exploded on the big vertebra forward of the shoulders and just momentarily stunned him causing him to drop his head for a moment. The little fellow was just over 325 on the hoof and heavily muscled with the rut.

For those of you slamming the so-called jammomatics. You might want to ask yourself why the Benoits use them as their weapon of choice. Pumps are second behind my levers for me but I do see the benefit of being able to get a very quick second shot off without any extraneous movement or fumbling.

Speaking of quick seconds, my Uncle, once when swinging on a Grouse cut a 2 inch tree down about five foot from the barrels end. The second barrel did the job and we ate grouse that evening.

An old article that I have somewhere shows how quickly a second shot can be taken with mildly recoiling bolts, semiautos, pumps and levers as well as a single shot. Singles were last by a considerable bit with bolts next and then the Auto/pump and lever crowded around the top. For dangerous game the double rifle has no equal in my opinion.

[Silvertip]

As far as market hunter/guide goes I knew of one that lived about 4 miles down the road from my Dads farm where I hunt today.He killed 60 deer alone in one fall and did this for years using a long barrel .30-30.They pushed the deer of mountains to men on watches in timber country.He was known to shoot five at a time in one drive.Try doing that with a single shot rifle.This man was a crack shot and knew what was the best suited rifle for the job from experience.
If anyone showed up with a single shot rifle in his camp they would of got their butt kicked down the trail.
Imo the single shot can be used by some in certain types of situations successfully but in other types of hunting settings are a poor choice.Anyone making the claim in our area that they only shoot deer with one shot would quickly be placed in our BS club because from experience we know it won't happen.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Time to weigh in with all the heavy hitters here. I don't own any single shot deer rifles. I have a pump, several semi-autos, a handful of levers and a good may bolt actions. I shoot them all one shot at a time. Each time I go out I load the magazine full. The number of deer that I have had to shoot more than once is insignificant to the number that have succumbed to one shot. I carry the extra rounds in the magazine for the same reasons that I carry the extra five rounds in my pocket. #1. I don't want to run out of ammo in the field. I've done this before and it didn't turn out well. #2. I want, if necessary, to be able to have another shot if I need one, whether it's due to a bad shot, a deflection or a really tough deer.

I am all for making the first shot count but the reality of it is that the devil fools in the best laid plans of mice, men and deer hunters. Plan "B" is the follow-up rounds.

If I had a single shot deer rifle I would not hesitate to hunt with it and would probably be much more discerning about my first (only) shot. At present the only single shots that hold any interest for me are Sharps and Rolling Blocks. Either of these would nearly guarantee the use of a large caliber and short range shooting (for me any way).

I do recall one day that I was hunting for meat and came up on two does at about 50 yards. I was shooting an 03A3 Sporter in 30-06 with buckhorn sights. I dropped to a knee and dropped the first one in her tracks. The second one jumped at the shot and trotted ahead and looked backover her shoulder. That 03A3 action is about as slick as they come and she was dead before she hit the ground. I shot her through the neck. The second shot came in real handy that day.

Now for the other side of the coin. When I was young (21) I was hunting with a friend one day. I was carrying a Mod 8 in 30 Rem and he had a Mod 141 in the same. We jumped a little buck and ended up shooting him 7 times. I'm not sure what we were thinking or if we even were thinking. We certainly weren't shooting well.

Make the first one count and those held in reserve will be just that, Reserve.

Alan

[Herne]

Imo the single shot can be used by some in certain types of situations successfully but in other types of hunting settings are a poor choice.Anyone making the claim in our area that they only shoot deer with one shot would quickly be placed in our BS club because from experience we know it won't happen.

Well it do happen Silvertip. It happens quite often.What it also means is that some people may just not be very good. And I'm not in the BS club and never have been. I have shot thousands of deer, rather more, I discovered than I thought I had. Woodlands, out in the open, deer that others that have fouled up and were on the run, messes that other people made and needed sorting in slow time. Whatever - just deer. The number missed or needed a second shot - a few tens. Why - because one shot one deer is just the baseline. Its what one should expect. Its quite normal. Beginners don't go shooting until they can etc. Of course it happens.

Put it this way - if someone were a deer and I had but one round, they would be unwise to put money on breakfast.

The point is, and this I can accept, is that a repeater can be a better choice, but one is at no real disadvantage, if one is halfways competent, with a single shot. A lever of course is always going to be a poor choice for rapid shooting, simply because of the design flaws - though of course, like all things, practise, familiarity and skill can overcome them (as the exhibition shooters show)

[Silvertip]

just how important IS having fast repeat fire capability--My firm belief is that in some circumstances it is very important.Again depending on what type of hunting you do and what the terrain is like.
I know there are folks on here whom disagree and thats alright it makes for interesting debate.
Make no mistake I know you can shoot deer with one shot--seen it done many times even in thick bush on deer drives like what we do.However even the best of hunters in our area will run into situations where a quick followup shot is necessary to bag the game while shooting moving deer.Now I am not talking about pray and spray I mean times when due to brush deflection,sunlight, or the deer makes an unexpected turn or jump etc.In these circumstances with deer moving through timber your shot can be rushed so its understandable that one could miss that first shot.If it happens don't worry. You quickly chamber another round and be ready should it stop behind a clump of trees or a boulder which they sometimes do.If it motors on and your not comfortable taking another shot then don't.But at least you are ready should the animal stop and offer up a good opportunity. It only makes sense.

Herne... I didn't put you in my BS club I was referring mainly to hunters in my own locale whom make these claims. There are always exceptions and I am sure you would be one of them. For example, my Dad hunted with an ole timer for over 30 yrs on deer drives and he never remembered him ever missing a deer and 95% of the time got them on the first shot.He piled up deer like cordwood.Interestingly he also used a repeater just incase of those rare moments when it was required.
The average hunter including myself will not make this claim because you know your soon bound to be taught a lesson about humility.The ones who keep quiet and don't make these types of claims are usually the better hunters and shots than those you hear crowing about never missing and only one shot deals.
Deer are often taken on the second shot and even third shot so a repeater styled rifle is a very important tool in our Area.
P.S- I consider myself an average hunter but not a poor shot.I once shot a coyote off hand at 380 yrds hitting him twice while it was trotting along the edge of a back field in the early morning shadows with a .303 british open sights.Second shot H/L.

Cheers-Silvertip

[Altjaeger]

An old article that I have somewhere shows how quickly a second shot can be taken with mildly recoiling bolts, semiautos, pumps and levers as well as a single shot. Singles were last by a considerable bit with bolts next and then the Auto/pump and lever crowded around the top. For dangerous game the double rifle has no equal in my opinion.

I remember a similar article probably 20-25 years ago. If I recall they used 3 shooters in the test. If you have a shooter who knows how to operate a bolt and is practiced they will give nothing up to a lever and little if any to the pump.

I enjoy hunting with my levers but due to technique and practice when young I am faster with my bolt actions I did use multiple shots some in my teens and had people nearby who heard my shots amazed to learn I had a bolt. I was taught by a former Marine who did his basic training with a Springfield in the late 1930's. The Brits were so fast with their SMLEs on the Western Front in WW I that the German's reports at times stated they were using machine guns.

If the rear of the scope is forward of the loading ramp of a single shot do not underestimate the speed of his reload if practiced. Having hunted with a break action shotgun with 2 shells between the fingers of the left hand I know they can be quite fast.

The point is that to make a single shot work it comes down to practice and believing in one's skills combined with the patience of that confidence, even in thick cover. You have to have confidence in your skill as a hunter that patience will give you a shot that you can make through a break in the cover no matter how small; then confidence your skill as a rifleman will let you take advantage of that opportunity. If not then you are simply taking a risky shot with a prayer that spraying lead will make up for it.

I have twice used two shots in the last 30 years and both were due to pix poor shooting on my part in wide open shots. I trained with the Army in the same woods I hunt today in the late 1970s. The officers of the cadre assured us that the terraine was as thick or thicker jungle than anything they experienced in Viet Nam so it is doubtful any you hunt anything denser. Take your time, pick your shots, know your rifle and have confidence. The second shot becomes pretty unimportant if you are only shooting one animal at a time when you do. The number of shots you pass on to let the animal walk is unlikely to exceed the number of animal otherwise lost due to wounding.

[Bushman]

I always thought that those Remington 742, 760 and their newer versions had a lot of the same handling characteristics as the 1100 and 870's that a lot of us have been using throughout the bird hunting season. They are not for the purest to be sure, but I did have an extra degree of confidence in shooting running deer with them. I know that a lot of guys on this board would give a pass to a running deer, but lots of them in WI. are taken that way. Actually if a guy can shoot grouse or skeet with a shotgun, a running deer with a rifle isn't that tough a shot. A pump or semi-auto or lever can shoot one shot just about as well as anything else at the short ranges that we have. If I participated in the deer drives and group hunting that is popular around here, I would darn sure dust off the 742 carbine again.

On wounding Alt, I am reminded of a buddy of mine who along with his whole group chased a 10 pointer for two days before they finally got it after it had been wounded by the first shot. The best shot was certainly their first shot, but due to something that went pear shaped the first shot only wounded that buck. In that circumstance a fast second shot when the deer was still disorientated would have saved them miles of chasing after it.

[Altjaeger]

On wounding Alt, I am reminded of a buddy of mine who along with his whole group chased a 10 pointer for two days before they finally got it after it had been wounded by the first shot. The best shot was certainly their first shot, but due to something that went pear shaped the first shot only wounded that buck. In that circumstance a fast second shot when the deer was still disorientated would have saved them miles of chasing after it.

How long did they give it to lay up and get stiff or die before taking up the chase?

[Bushman]

I don't know all the specifics, but if it could carry on for two days it was probably a deflection into a front leg I'm thinking. I kicked up an eight pointer like that once a week into the season. I spent all day on that track as we had good snow that year. I only saw it once in the late afternoon and grazed it with a shot. I got it the next day after I ran it out of blood from that broken front leg, but we were miles from where it had bedded the day before.

[Sabre]

I am all for making the first shot count but the reality of it is that the devil fools in the best laid plans of mice, men and deer hunters. Plan "B" is the follow-up rounds.

Exactly the point I was trying to make and well said Mr. McDaniel.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Well, thank you Mr. Sabre.

Alan

[Doug S]

Well, I think the guy in the original post here is correct, if he feels the need for more shots then so be it. Some people just like to hear the gun go off, you know. Kind of depends on why you hunt, I used to hunt to kill deer, then it was big racks, now it's all about the gun I carry and the heck with the deer. Couple years ago it was a civil war musket, last year my old friend the sidelock TC, this year it's going to be an 1897 Winchester thumb buster with buck shot. More than half the deer I've taken have been with a single shot ML'r but when I take a repeater, I plan on using just as many shells as it takes to keep the animal on the ground. That's why I brought it along in the first place.

I don't give myself bonus points for one-shot kills, could be it was too easy. Long shots are over rated depending on the situation and the gun used. Close shot are not always a sure thing, nor are they always the best thing.

To me:
Shooting a deer standing in a food plot you planted, from a tower, with a high power wiz/bang maybe single shot rifle, on a 5K per year prime lease that you drove to in a 10K ATV after getting dressed in clothes that cost more than an Armani suit so you are invisable up there in that little house on the tower-(did I leave anything out)....Is about as much of a thrill as opening the garage refridgerator after a hot day of lawn work and not finding a cold beer. Now there are people who like warm beer and godbless em, I hope they enjoy it.

And that's my point, as long as that guy in the original post is happy with his choice, then so am I. Like I tell my wife, "If you like it, I love it"

Doug

[LampLighter]

I once unloaded a 10 round clip from my Heckler & Koch .308 at a spike. He finally fell and I dropped the clip and put in another 10 rounder. That was 1986 in Brookhaven, Mississippi. I blame it on the ineffective .308

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Some people just like to hear the gun go off, you know.

Alan

[Fuzzball3]

"but this guy was insistent that quick follow-up shot capability was critical...."

My guess is "this guy" knows his shooting ability pretty well.

[southtexas]

"but this guy was insistent that quick follow-up shot capability was critical...."

My guess is "this guy" knows his shooting ability pretty well.


FB: I suspect you are correct! :D Welcome to the forum!

[Silvertip]

Fuzzball3,

I suspect you are wrong ...a second shot can be critical in certain hunting conditions and it has nothing to do with marksmanship.Its all about the terain your hunting in and the type of hunting your engaging in.I realize though that this is awfully hard for a certain group of hunters not mentioning any names to understand.

Welcome to the forum...its a good one!

Silvertip

[Bill Gunn]

http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/happy/happy0194.gif


I once unloaded a 10 round clip from my Heckler & Koch .308 at a spike. He finally fell and I dropped the clip and put in another 10 rounder. That was 1986 in Brookhaven, Mississippi. I blame it on the ineffective .308

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animals/animal0029.gifhttp://www.thescubasite.com/smile/fighting/fighting0015.gif



LAMPLIGHTER
Beat it with a sledge hammer and throw it in the trash.




http://www.thescubasite.com/smile/happy/happy0194.gif

[Badger]

Lamplighter,

WOT? You ONLY fired 10 rounds of .308 ammo and FINALLY dropped a spike and you BLAME it on the .308?

Nay, nay, my Boy, WOT you REALLY needed was a SELECTOR lever to "Hose" that dreadful Spike. LOL.

P.S. Have you ever had BASIC Firearms Marksmanship Instruction? If so, how badly did you FAIL? LOL.

Badger

[rimrock]

I must be doing something DREADFULLY wrong,(I never get to blaze away randomly while hunting) I can,t remember more than a single ELK hunt in the last 15-17 years where I fired more than a single cartridge to drop game, and only a few cases in the 25 years before that where more than two or at the most three cartridges, got fired.....but that was before I realized that once they start staggering around after being zapped with the first shot from my 340 wby, or 375 H&H or my 45/70 that they were not going anyplace, they were just confused at the concept of being dead........only thing I can think of is Ive got this bad habit of getting in close and not firing until IM certain of my shot placement, Ive got a decent solid shooting position, and know the ELKS anatomy, could that be causing it?

[Silvertip]

Rimrock ...Instead of glassing unsuspecting Elk why don't you try shooting a little whitetail zipping through thick hardwoods that has been pushed .I think you will be singin a different tune pretty quick.Oh I know ..you wouldn't even fire a shot would you.

[rimrock]

Ive lost count of the HOGS,deer Ive killed over the last 40 years in the palmetto thickets, in mid Florida,and while I fully agree that having a repeater is nice, especially on running shots, as its a faster next shot if needed,its hardly mandatory,as Ive killed at least 8 deer with a ruger #1 yes its a nice feeling having a fast second shot available, and if you need it having the option, makes sense, but then I usually use a 44 mag S&W revolver for most of my hunts in thickets and on hogs so that being a repeater I guess your correct, that in some areas a repeater makes a good hunting tool.
Ive never even hinted that I feel use of a repeater is a bad choice, just that its rarely been all that helpful in my experience, on most of the game I hunt in most of the areas I hunt

[Silvertip]

Shooting at moving/pushed deer in timber country is probably the only real place where a repeater style rifle is a very good choice.I wouldn't think of having anything else and I've been doing it for over 30 years.
All these one shot wonders are shooting at glassed unsuspecting animals.Its a totally different ball game.

[southtexas]

As a "one shot wonder" :rolleyes: I agree with that. I don't shoot at running deer. In the country I hunt, once they take two steps, they're off the sendero, and you can't see them anymore. Hunting is different in different geographical areas. Some folks don't seem to have a grasp of that concept.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I grew up in a place where deer hunting was about shooting (at) human/dog pushed/pursued deer. It was the norm. Those coonasses used automatic shotguns and buckshot. The first shot was just to clear the barrel.


Even in the S Texas brush country there have been several deer that I shot twice and a couple that I wish I had shot three times.

Alan

[LampLighter]

P.S. Have you ever had BASIC Firearms Marksmanship Instruction? If so, how badly did you FAIL? LOL.

Badger



Funny you should ask. I know all about judging wind speed, the respiratory pause and shooting through it, and, well, being a Southern hunter and woodsman, I guess you could say " I wouldn't want to go against Lamplighter in a simulation game." Ever see " Special Ops " on the Military channel with "whiskey whiskey?"

Never confuse different topics. Sneaking and accuracy of one shot is far away from bullet effects on game. A Heckler & Koch SL7 is far, far from a heavy barreled Ruger Target rifle with 2 stage olympic trigger. Got to look at each individual situation or you'll set yourself up for me to respond. :D

[Badger]

LampLighter,

Respond all you wish. I suspect you LACK credibility. I have better things to do than RAP with you. Be well.

Badger

[Perry]

Theres alot of people in my area that like to push the woods, and take stupid shots at deer, most of the time ripping up the legs, or gut shotin them. I have never hunt a push, and never will. In MY opionion its not hunting. Id rather go to the woods set up shop in an area where I KNOW deer travel, and yada yada. Call me crazy, but id rather take a clean ETHICAL shot, than at a deer on a dead run, duckin and divin threw the thickets, or woods. Im sure I could pop some deer runnin threw the woods, but I wont try it.

[Silvertip]

Deer on the move have a better chance of escaping.True some do get wounded..some die and some escape untouched.If your shooting at unsuspecting game from some sort of a stand and never miss a shot the animal has zero chance of escape..what is so ethical about that.
I do happen to know however that deer or game in general can be wounded by so called ethical hunters shooting from solid rests in stands as well.

[Badger]

Silvertip,

What does "chance of escape" have to do with "ethical hunting" from a stand? I would suggest ethics means one passes on small does and bucks and takes only a mature animal, if a proper shooting situation arises. When do you offer "chance of escape" to the animals you hunt? How do you put it into effect?

Badger

[Silvertip]

Badger,

Some folks believe an animal should have a fair chance of escape or its not ethical hunting.
Some stand hunters claim they never miss and only require one shot so if thats the case the animal has zero chance of escape making it unethical in some eyes.
Shooting pushed deer the more difficult task misses can occur which offer the animal a chance to escape

cheers --Silvertip

[southtexas]

And some folks think that "spraying and praying" and risking an wounding animal, to "escape" and suffer a long painful death is not ethical.

IMO, the "chance to escape" happens BEFORE the shot is made. Once there is pressure on the trigger, there should be no doubt about a clean humane kill.

[Bushman]

If a lot of guys didn't shoot at running deer here in WI., we wouldn't shoot over 300,000 a season. Lots of times deer get bumped from one hunter into another and they are moving. Actually if a guy is a decent wing shot with a shotgun, a deer on the run isn't too hard with a rifle. I've done it a bunch of times and I have never lost a deer that I've hit with a rifle. It isn't my preferred way of shooting a deer, but sometimes a guy needs to adapt to the conditions. An aimed shot at a moving deer does not seem to me it is a spray and pray. If I shoot, I expect to kill the deer running or stationary. The ethics of taking one type of shot over another has never even entered my mind. I'm out there hunting to kill a deer.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Chance to escape? Pushed deer? Running shots ethical/unethical? Standing shots ethical/unethical? This is not a Freaking Game! It's life and death. Nobody gets "Ethical Points" or "Unethical Gigs" for shooting a deer one way and not another.

Personally, I like to eat deer, and running them in front of dogs or people gets their blood flowing and all kinds of stuff pumped into the meat. I like to catch them completely unawares and kill them quickly with one shot preferably which I nearly always take from a dead rest. The whole idea for me is to not allow the deer to escape if it is the one that want to kill.

Does this mean that I would go out and tie up a deer and shoot it and call it hunting. No. I would call it something else, slaughtering the deer for meat maybe. But I wouldn't let it go and take a running shot just to let it have a fighting chance of escape. I realize that that example is kinda off topic but hopefully the meaning will not be lost.

Ethical Hunting? To me it means, within and according to the law, with the idea first and foremost that the animal is a living being that is going to be killed for human use, and that the method of dispatch be accomplished as quickly and expeditiously as possible to those ends.

I'm sure there's more.

Alan

Oh Yeah! I always try to have a second or third shot ready if need be.

Alan

[Hi Ball]

Well I remember many many years ago, when Remington brought out that newer semi-auto. model 742 in the 30-06 and man things got hot and heavy in the woods that year. We didn't hunt out of blinds and no idiot climbed a tree either or built a tree house in those days. It was stalk em on foot or just sit down under a tree and wait for the big critter to walk on by.

Many folks down in the Ozarks put on drives in the cut timber, with the new growth being 3 to 6 ft high. The jumping of deer was common place and many hunters took several shots at running deer through the woods. Some scored hits and others of course didn't but that is the way it was done back then and NOBODY wore camo!

I had one of the very first Ruger .44mag carbines and I can tell you all, I could hit jumped up deer while deer hunting. We used to practice over a month before the season, rolling tires with cardboard centers down a hillside, with the shooter standing mid-way down and his back turned away from the firing lane. The the GO yell! The shooter would turn and try to hit that rolling jumping tire as it made it's way down that steep hill past him or her. The little Ruger was fast to shoulder and paid for itself many times in venison on the table Gents!;) :D

The Ruger .44mag was given to my wife several years latter and she shot the biggest buck on record in Miller County, Missouri. She hit that buck and he jumped, she fired twice more and hit him once in the ribs. The buck went 40 yards and dropped.:cool:

[Doug S]

Ethics are what you do when nobody is watching. Anything else is just lip-service and there's alot of that in this thread.

Setting up a stand and shooting deer that just happen along is no more ethical, or unethical, than jumpshooting one off a push. Maybe that buck you shot from your ethical stand was bumped along by some guy going to lunch, that's about the same as a drive. Besides, what makes shooting some poor deer eating diner in a bean field 300 yards away where it can never know you are around; so ethical? For that matter, why is hunting the rut ethical, I'm a normal guy and when I'm rutting I've been known to let my guard down and do stupid things, who hasn't been horney. Cut the poor bucks some slack, killing them while they are trying too score is unethical in my book-LOL. Wounding a deer is not unethical, it's unfortunate and if you hunt long enough, it will probably happen-hasn't anyone ever missed a deer-are you sure you missed it? Maybe you hit it and didn't get any sign or reaction from the animal, especially at longer ranges. Taking multiple shots at a deer is not unethical, if fact at times it maybe more ethical than just taking one and watching what happens, just in case you screwed up.

Shooting running deer is hard, if it were easy then everyone would do it. Just because it's hard does not make it unethical, if you don't agree then I guess you just feel easy is ethical. Seems like almost everyone here thinks stand hunting and one shot kills are more ethical..hmmm, I guess that makes it easy.

Maybe the guy in the original post was a former one shot type of guy who screwed up and wounded one, and figures having multiple shots would have helped. Now he won't go hunting with out a repeater, if this is the case then he sounds like the smartest and most ethical one here. He is doing everything he thinks he can to make a clean kill, what's wrong with that? OH, I know, since he needs a repeater, must not be a good shot, probably not a good hunter either...I wish I had the crystal ball some of you guys have.

Doug

[Doug S]

HiBall,

We do the tire thing often, it's great practice especially if it's rolling down a bumpy hill. Running shots are certainly do-able, it takes practice, not everyone practices and the results are unfortunate. I'm not the greatest long range shot out there but I don't like scopes and don't do it often. I'll take em close and moving rather than far and standing anyday.

Doug

[Silvertip]

What frustrates me is as soon as you mention that you drive/push deer your automatically labelled as pray and spray hunter which is simply not true.

A good drive hunter will not rely on pray and spray but use skill and technique picking a spot just ahead of the moving animal and fire only when the target arrives .It may however require more than one shot which is why a repeater is a valued tool in this type of hunting.
Pray and spray is a form of slob hunting and slob hunting can exist in all types of hunting including stand hunters ie the one who closes both eyes and fires at the game beacuse he is afraid of the boom from his Mag or the one who doesn't take time to sight in his rifle properly or the one who sips on a pack of beer all day up in his cozy stand and then blasts a deer in the gut just before sunset.

[southtexas]

Silvertip:

I believe I was the one who used the term "spray and pray"/ I apologize. I fully recognize that there are many hunters who are fully accomplished and can shoot running deer consistently in the vitals. (I am not one of them).

My comment was more directed at the poster who implied that shooting an undisturbed deer from a rest was somehow unsporting because the deer doesn't have a "chance to escape".

IMO, as long as the hunter is practiced at the type of hunting dictated by the local conditions, and is confident of a quick, humane kill (whether the deer is standing or running) when the trigger is squeezed, the animal has received the respect that it deserves.


To take a shot at a deer when you are not 95% confident of a hit in the vitals is wrong, IMO. And to justify shooting when you are not confident by claiming that you gave the deer a chance to escape is also wrong.

And I agree there are slob hunters of all persuations.

[Silvertip]

Southtexas,

No problem... It's unfortunate that those kind of guys succeed in giving everyone a bad name even within the hunting community itself.

[Hi Ball]

Doug I never did much on long shooting (150yds max) when I was younger and besides those deer in the woods and even the smaller fields were often shot less than 100 yards, in the woods around 30 to 40 yards.

It wasn't until I started going on hunts out West or hunting Moose in Canada that I started practicing longer shots out to 250 yards usually. I figured back then, that my .300 Win mag being dead on at 250, would easy let me kill an animal out to 325.

We practiced a lot when I was a kid with a 22LR rifle! I had an old J.C. Higgins semi-auto that helped me a lot in hitting rolling tire targets that bounced down those Ozark hillsides in the woods. I used to use a fella's model 742 Remington and it worked great!!! However, when I purchased mine, I got the biggest LEMON a person could NEVER wish to own. Then I went to the bolt action rifle only.

I had a .270 Winchester before I got the .300 Win mag and practiced with it a bunch. Practice with the .300 mag was a real challenge to a guy who tipped the scales in those days at a mere 150 pounds soak in wet. Nonetheless, we did a lot of jump shooting in those days of deer in the woods or fields.....everybody at that time figured is was A-OK to do so period.

[rimrock]

my dad taught me to shoot, and he CONSTANTLY STRESSED taking your time, and making SURE of your shot placement, even on fast moving targets, and getting in as close as possibly on game.
you eventually develop an attitude, or approach to hunting somewhat similar to the sniper(ONE SHOT ONE KILL)mind set.
I frequently shoot SKEET, with a 20 ga, pump, and I know how to lead moving targets, but Ill admit Ive missed a few shots over the years, on game, but as I aged and gained experience the percentages got far better,I learned, to think about the games speed and range and my rifles velocity and drop. Ive made some spectacular shots, and learned from the missed shots
now I hunt with single shots, bolt actions, lever guns even some semi-autos, but if you have that single shot mind set, you tend to approach things differently, you don,t just blaze away as fast as you can, under the concept of if the first shot didn,t drop then the second or third should. instead you spend more time, getting in close, or getting into the best location, and preparing for the shots., and you look at that as the challenge as much as the shot.

[LampLighter]

The Ruger .44mag was given to my wife several years latter and she shot the biggest buck on record in Miller County, Missouri. She hit that buck and he jumped, she fired twice more and hit him once in the ribs. The buck went 40 yards and dropped.


I have the new version with the Garand action. I have taken quite a few meat deer with it. Excellent rifle in the woods - however if you have any chance of a shot, say, along a swamp edge over 100 yards, you'll fall short there.