you call the shot - #4 Dead deer walking

[Twanger]

This deer is walking from right to left at an average gate, say 3 miles per hour, and is at a range of 15 yards. In 10 yards he's going to hit your scent stream and blow out of there. You've practiced shots on walking deer and are comfortable with this one. Your bow is drawn and you decide to take the shot without stopping him. Where do you aim?

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/white_tail_quartering_towards_dots.JPG

[DaveHawk]

Bottom Blue when he drops the left front leg.

[dave-t.]

Between mid blue and mid red when that front leg gets out in front of the deer. The worst bloodtrail I ever got was from that exact shot, with the deer's near leg in the far front position and the far leg in the far back position. Still, he went less than 75yrds.

[My buddy]

I've only shot one deer that was moving. It was about 15 yards out, with a muzzleloader. between the delay of the primer/charge discharge and his walking I put a otherwise perfect lung shot into the guts, while I did get him it took a follow up shot to keep him from traveling through a swamp.

Since then I stop them all. They are smart if they dont' stop cause I dont shoot. However, I will say that I don't give them much time to figure out what is going on. I am ready to shoot before I try to stop them and once they do stop I am firing. In most cases though the deer do enough stopping on their own.

[GF.]

And a little sense of deja-vu ;)

With the recurve, bottom red. There's bone under it right now, but it will be forward when the shaft arrives. Actually, no. On further review, I'd split the difference between bottom and center red. Maybe even lock onto that little dark spot that lies just below the center of the X formed by connecting bottom red to center blue and bottom blue to center red. That one will probably miss heart but it's a solid double-lunger for sure...

That is, assuming that his left front hoof is still traveling upward/forward....

Really, the smart shot (IMO) is to wait just a couple of beats. He's coming toward you on that quartering angle and will be that much closer to broadside--you hit the blue dot right now, and you're going to be into liver for sure; might even miss the off lung entirely- especially if you're not swingin' with him.

Compound, I'm gonna say I'd center my #1 pin on bottom red and try not to punch the shot. I hit a couple inches high at that range, and that'd be about 'zactly right for a shaft with plenty of stuff behind it.

Come to think of it.....Deja-vu wise...This is almost exactly the shot that I took on the yearling bull Elk, except the bull was closer and more nearly broadside. And there was that one damn 2" lodgepole....

[GF.]

The worst bloodtrail I ever got was from that exact shot, with the deer's near leg in the far front position and the far leg in the far back position. Still, he went less than 75yrds.

Yup. Just like the buck I stitched through the meaty part of both shoulders when he stopped on his own. If he stops, he's going to be a little tense, and he's going to have triceps covering his heart from both sides. With the curve, I didn't get an exit.

And talk about your crappy blood trails. Twarn't none! But yeah, about 80 yards and I could see the lights going down.

At least with him walking, you'd have one side staying fairly open. Blue dots would bleed more. Green dots would leave a trail of green goop. At least you'd be able to trail him by the smell.:eek:

[Twanger]

Here my cut, based on taking this exact shot on a walking buck between the bottom blue dots last season.... and I shot him in the guts, starting a grueling 8 hour follow-up that fortunately ended in my favor.

Deer speed is 3mph or about 5 feet per second. Range is 15 yards or 45 feet. Flight time of arrow is 45 ft / 250 fps = 0.18 sec. Computed required lead is 0.9 feet.

You should shoot this deer slightly forward of the middle red dot and by the time the arrow gets there it will hit between the blue and green dots.

My $0.02 - don't try this shot unless you've practiced it on a range with a moving target. It's not hard to make - unless you've never practiced it. I've practiced on moving targets and still couldn't convince myself in the moment of truth to lead that deer as far forward as I needed to. Facing down Big Bone with seconds to make the decision does nothing for shot confidence. :D:rolleyes:

[My buddy]

Although I said I wouldn't......

Once again my mind may change with a quartering away shot.

It just seems as though the quartering away shot offers a much larger vital area and a lot more room for error.

[ncboman]

Here my cut, based on taking this exact shot on a walking buck between the bottom blue dots last season.... and I shot him in the guts, starting a grueling 8 hour follow-up that fortunately ended in my favor.

Deer speed is 3mph or about 5 feet per second. Range is 15 yards or 45 feet. Flight time of arrow is 45 ft / 250 fps = 0.18 sec. Computed required lead is 0.9 feet.

You should shoot this deer slightly forward of the middle red dot and by the time the arrow gets there it will hit between the blue and green dots.

My $0.02 - don't try this shot unless you've practiced it on a range with a moving target. It's not hard to make - unless you've never practiced it. I've practiced on moving targets and still couldn't convince myself in the moment of truth to lead that deer as far forward as I needed to. Facing down Big Bone with seconds to make the decision does nothing for shot confidence. :D:rolleyes:

:)


don't try this shot unless you've practiced it on a range with a moving target.

agree.

[DaveHawk]

Bottom blue is a kill shot shot at 15 yards after he drops that front leg. Even if he drops to roll right you still have a double lung shot unless you are a poor shot at 15 yards.

[dave-t.]

Deer speed is 3mph or about 5 feet per second. Range is 15 yards or 45 feet. Flight time of arrow is 45 ft / 250 fps = 0.18 sec. Computed required lead is 0.9 feet.



The angle of direction will have some bearing on this also. If he's headed at you on a 45* angle, that .9 feet of lead can be cut some, compared to a straight 90* b-side lead.

I've shot a couple on a walk, and never had one issue with hitting out of the lung area, or needing 'x' many inches of lead. That leads me to believe that perception is subjective, even (maybe especially:o) for me.

Listen to shotgun guys talk about lead, and even guys who are very good shots never agree or give the same advice on lead or how to hold for a particular shot. Some swing way out ahead, and some put the bead right on the bird, both will hit the target shooting their way, and most likely would miss trying to do it the other guys way. I find that true with all kinds of shooting sports, archery included. The shooter sees things through his own eyes, and has to make the shot true with what he is working with.

I hope that makes some sense.:confused:

[GF.]

Yeah, I can see where 'aiming' low blue without swinging on him would lead you to perdition..... That's as far back as I'd want to hit on that angle.

I guess I've shot at so many moving targets over the years that I figured that keeping the bow moving was a given. If aiming without swinging, I wouldn't want to be much - if at all - behind the line formed by the front of the off-side foreleg and that break from light to shadow in the back ground..... Possible exception for focusing on that bright mark just a hair behind the line....(1st pic)

Interesting to think about, though, because I'm realizing that I'm always looking for the deer to give me something to hold on.... Light spot, dark spot... (2nd, 3rd pics)...Just gimme something small enough to look at that the rest of the deer disappears...

Keep at it, Twang, but from now on, I'm gonna reserve the right to make up my own aiming dots ;)

[Twanger]

One key thing is that whether or not you swing with the target you have to lead the target. This became very obvious to me in sporting clays when I was shooting at the bird thrown from the high tower. I couldn't hit the thing at all and I was swinging with the bird. I was lamenting my poor performance and then somebody said - hey, you've gotta lead that thing by 6 feet! After that I broke 3 in a row. :D

That's six feet of lead with a load traveling 1200 fps when it leaves the barrel, range was about 40 yards. I don't how fast those clay birds go, but I'd guess 30 MPH, and it was totally cross range.

Lets see: 40 yards is 120 feet, so the shot gets to the bird in about 120 ft /1200 fps or about 0.1 seconds. 30 mph is about 50 feet per second, so the bird travels about 5 feet or so in the time it takes the shot to get there. They told me 6 feet. Not bad!

[GF.]

One key thing is that whether or not you swing with the target you have to lead the target.


It's not a matter of swinging with the target, but swinging through the target.

I'd venture that another key thing is that if you're practiced enough on moving targets that you have any business taking this shot in the first place, then you'll never give the lead any conscious thought :cool:


So in a sense, you're being pretty crafty presenting this as a slam-dunk shot when the reality is fraught with peril!:eek::eek::eek:

[Twanger]

So in a sense, you're being pretty crafty presenting this as a slam-dunk shot when the reality is fraught with peril!:eek::eek::eek:

Nothing like stirring up some controversy to get a conversation going, eh? :rolleyes: :D :p
(I learned that from NCBowman)

[ncboman]

It's not a matter of swinging with the target, but swinging through the target.

I'd venture that another key thing is that if you're practiced enough on moving targets that you have any business taking this shot in the first place, then you'll never give the lead any conscious thought :cool:


So in a sense, you're being pretty crafty presenting this as a slam-dunk shot when the reality is fraught with peril!:eek::eek::eek:

We ain't shootin doves here and swing thru or not, I'd wager 95% of hunters will hit behind where they shoot for. The is a case where experience on moving targets has the upper hand.


The shooter sees things through his own eyes, and has to make the shot true with what he is working with.


I think that's an accurate statement. :)

[dave-t.]

Has anyone heard anything negative about swinging the bow while you shoot? I've always heard to keep the bow as still as possible to keep from kicking the fletch of the arrow out on the shot.

It seems to me if you were swinging left, that the fletch of the arrow would get off line and be heading more left than the tip end of the arrow.

I use a WB, and it just seems like trouble. If I have to aim forward for lead, I just aim forward with the bow still and trip the trigger when the sight looks right for the shot.

[Twanger]

We practice moving shots by shooting at motorcycles tires with 2" high-density foam broadhead targets put in their center. They roll pretty well. :D

We always swing with target, take the lead we want, and then hit the trigger.

Two years ago I had a fox trot by my stand from right to left at about 10 yards (if memory serves). I swung with him, let the pin settle on his nose, and shot him through the ear. :rolleyes: A little too much lead I guess. It had a very dramatic effect though, and pinned him to the ground.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2008_fox_b.jpg

[dave-t.]

Sounds good to me. I had a guy tell me not to swing a bow for a moving shot about 14+yrs ago, and I never thought much else of it. If I shoot a walking deer, I release as the front edge of the kill zone gets to the sight pin. I've never shot a walking deer way out there at a full 20yds though.;)

[DaveHawk]

I have taken one shot at a doe running full speed at 10 yards, heart shot. With the crossbow I will take a walking shot on deer out to 20 yards but very seldom. Deer are not hard to get them to stop for the shot.

[Twanger]

A bow is a pretty unwieldy instrument, and you have to think ahead a little... especially if you're shooting from a tree stand. Eventually you run out of swinging room, and you want the arrow to be away before that happens. :eek: It all happens in 1-2 seconds... you can't dally. My sequence is something like this:

1) Position your stance so that your body will be in approximately the ideal shooting form when you actually trigger the shot - i.e. NOT WHEN YOU START TO SWING
2) Draw bow well before the animal (or tire) moves into the swing zone
3) When the target enters your swing zone, swing through it from behind.
4) As your pin approaches the aim-point slow your swing to match the aim-point and immediately hit the trigger when the pin covers the aim-point.

It takes much longer to write this than it does to do. :D

A good way to start practicing for this is to stand in front of a stationary target at about 5-10 yards and draw and shoot your bow before you complete saying the phrase "one one-thousand, two one-thousand." You will quickly learn how to do several things at once to cut down on your shot sequence time. You simultaneously draw, start bringing your bow into shooting position as you bring your peep to your eye as the pin is approaching the target and BOOM you trigger the shot as everything lines up all at once. Once you can hit the KZ of a deer doing this you're ready for the tire. :D

[ncboman]

I've killed several deer being run by deer hounds, connected with one in the middle of her jump going across a ditch, probably one of my best ever shots. We're talkin lead of two deer lengths here. :D

btw, I doan know about swinging thru with a bow.

I swing with the target and get out in front but when I touch off the release, I'm shootin by the sight but watching the deer if that makes any sense.

[GF.]

I doan know about swinging thru with a bow.

I swing with the target and get out in front...


If that's not "swingin' through", then I don't know how else to talk about it :cool:

All I really know about shooting at a moving deer with a bow is that the one time I took a 15-20 yard broadside at a trotting doe, I pegged the lead as perfectly as I could ever imagine doing. Dead-center 12-ring.... and right at the backline :eek::rolleyes: