Elk Antler Sizes

[postoak]

Can someone translate a 340" elk into an equivalent white tail number? What about a 400" er?

[Bushman]

I know whitetail numbers better than elk numbers, but just off the top of my head I would say a 340 elk would be like a 150 deer. A 400 elk probably up around a 200 deer. Interesting comparison and I'll be interested to read what the others write. In CO. where we go in the West Elk Wilderness I've been happy just to get a legal bull and they are mostly some smaller than trophy class.

[Rock Chuck]

I've never scored anything. A 340 elk is what we call a decent elk. A 400 is what we call a BIG sucker.

[postoak]

What about a 300"?

[dave-t.]

I did a google image search for "340 inch elk", this guy says it grosses 340+. I stole the pic, and don't know anything else about it.


http://www.biggamehunt.net/graphics/photos_talltales/s_schulz_elk1.jpg

[postoak]

That's a magnificant trophy in my opinion, if collected while really hunting.

This Texas place I was looking at, you can get a 400 incher off of 1,000 acres, guaranteed!

I think Africa is the place for me.

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Can someone translate a 340" elk into an equivalent white tail number? What about a 400" er?

A 340" (using the P&Y or B&C scoring system) is a very large bull. Most people really don't appreciate how difficult it is to harvest such bulls today. I'd say that a 300" bull is a very nice 'average mature' animal in most elk hunting areas.

Here are some photos from one of my hunting areas to give you some idea:

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/1KevinElk-383PY.jpg
383" P&Y Record Book

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/BradBull2.jpg
345" P&Y Record Book

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/BobBullElk08.jpg
381" B&C Record Book

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Can someone translate a 340" elk into an equivalent white tail number? What about a 400" er?

I actually think a 300" bull elk is about equal to a 150" whitetail... 340" class maybe more like 160-165" whitetail, but I find whitetails of this size far easier to come by than 300" elk (free range/wild). A 400" bull is indeed comparable to a 200"+ whitetail.

It's kinda 'apples and oranges' but that's my best guess comparison.

[postoak]

Thanks. Are these just random photos or elk you've taken? I can't tell if the same person is in the photos, or not.

Don't some Indian reservations have huge elk that are free ranging? I saw a show last week on hunting on some Apache reservation where the host "debated" over taking a 370" elk.

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

No, not random photos... These are elk taken from one of my hunting areas in Montana. I'm in the 'biz' so to speak. We take only 12 or so hunters per year in this area... huge blocks of private land, but all free range and wild. Our clients are advised NOT to shoot bulls under 350" early in a hunt and yes, many have actually passed on 350"+ bulls here as well, as you often do see 380"-400" animals.... but usually during bow season and seldom within range of an arrow! ;-) That's hunting!

If you get VERSUS TV, look for Babe Winkleman's show... he's hunted here for a couple of seasons now... his wife killed her first ever archery animal (5x5 bull) on the lease this fall. All of the 'pro staff' people who have hunted the ranch say that it's the best elk herd in terms of mere numbers and trophy quality they've ever hunted... anywhere! I'm bias, but it is the best I've ever seen. I'll try to post some raw clips here later, as this seasons filming probably won't air for a long time (I'd guess maybe next fall?).

Yes, some of the reservations have really big bulls too but tend to be very expensive... more than I'd pay anyway, but then I live in elk country.

Merry Christmas!

[Greybeard]

The northeast side of Mt.Hood has quite a range of bulls. Every year someone kills a big 7x7, several 6x6s. Normal bull is anything from a spike to a 5x5. This is thick 2nd growth at the lower slopes and the USFS hasn't had a real timber harvest in 25 years. They are starting some thinning operations for forest health and to minimize big forest fires. If we had more open patches we'd have more elk and bigger bulls. Greybeard/

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Hi, Greybeard! Yep... although I've not hunted that area, I have cousin over there who I've spent time with (in the woods). While horsebacking over there at summer's end, I saw a nice 7x7 that would have went about 320" - guestimate. It is beautiful country and should hold some nice elk.

[Bushman]

Graybeard, are those the Roosevelt elk over your way in OR? I don't know how the antlers compare, but I've heard that the body size is much larger.

[Greybeard]

They are Rocky Mt. elk and are similar to Rocky Mt. elk elsewhere, perhaps somewaht smaller than New Mexico elk, but similar to Colorado, Wyoming, Montanna, etc. elk.

Roosevelts are found east of the Cascade Mts. especially along both sides of the Coast Mts. The Roosevelts have larger bodies (up to 1,000 lbs.) but smaller narrower racks. They may not get a mature rack until 5 or 6 years old and many are dead by year 8 or so of liver flukes. Nutrition generally limits Roosevelt antler growth. I've seen a few spectacular Roosevelt racks.

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Here are a few crappy vid caps of one of the bulls on the Montana lease that has been estimated at over 400". Even though these video captures are blurry, you can easily see that this old boy is a big fella... and he's not alone. ;)



http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/1mussBullvid1.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/1mussBullvid2.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/1mussBullvid3.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/1mussBullvid4.jpg

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/ScottBull2007.jpg

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

This bull was not killed either... he's still running around those Musselshell hills.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/1mussBull09.jpg

[Bushman]

Bill, I suspect antler induced camera shake on that big one. Man, what an animal. And here I thought that the Irish Elk went extinct.

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Hahahaaa.... He is indeed a monster of a bull. He was seen on several occasions but only during archery season and never within ethical bow range. My brother killed a nice 345" P&Y bull that we actually also have on film right with this huge old bull (probably 100 head were in the herd at the time) and brother's 345" looks, honest to God, like a pimple-faced raghorn next to this guy! ;)

Once I get to learning more about how to edit down some of these vids and get them uploaded to my site, I will try to post some of the raw footage in short clips.... it is amazing stuff even though it's shot by plain old elk guides and not pro 'movie makers'....

I've also got some other vids shot on the lease by pros and will post links to a few of those short clips soon... they're already 'net ready' and on youtube and elsewhere.

[Hi Ball]

Bull Elk! Well it has been my experience that if you take a 300 score bull on public ground, you have one heck of a trophy bull period. A 340 score bull would be like taking a 160 score whitetail buck. I have only seen one bull in my entire elk hunting years, in the wild mind you, that would score a possible 380 or better on public ground. I will NEVER forget that bull and the way he moved with the herd that day. I was 545 yards away and roughly 140 feet above him and the herd. There were at least 60 head of elk in that herd and 4 other smaller bulls, which any of them would have been a trophy to 90% of the elk hunters. Another hunter spooked the heard and all I could do at that point was watch his magnificent body trot away, while everything else ran like hell. He was so frigging big in the body, I have never seen such a bull in my lifetime until that day. I still dream about that bull elk, yes I do.

Now that bull in the picture is indeed a "Monster Bull" by all means, why just to get a glimpse of that critter could cause a hunter to have a heart attack before he got his gun to his shoulder. I wish the pic's could have been better, I would love to see him standing broadside. I like to see a nice big body on a bull elk! I have seen several 6 x 6's that scored well but just did not have the body of a big bull. Great pic's too!

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

After talking to my brother yesterday, he told me that a previous years shed antlers from this bull were found on a neighboring ranch and the fella mounted them up... the antlers scored 435" using the B&C system. Of course, spread credit is never 100% accurate when dealing with scoring of shed antlers. Yep, you're right about true trophy bulls... they have massive bodies that dwarf the cows in the herd... or any smaller satellite bulls.

Although many people like hunting late in the rifle season for really large bulls (375"+), I've found that the archery season is far more productive, especially on public ground... but these days a man must really get back into the bush to avoid a bunch of yahoos. Now, if one hunts migrant herds this is probably different and the cold and deep snows of late season can really help, but most of my hunting is within local herds (on public forest/wilderness or private lands) where the elk really don't move that darn far between September and end November (unless we get a real freak storm). And, yep, many (most) people never score on a 300" 6x6 bull and that has aways been a general yardstick number for me when talking about 'trophy elk'... ever since I arrowed my first at 16.

[Bushman]

Wild Bill, how about muzzle loader season as a close second to archery for a big bull? I hung up my bow years ago after I wounded my second deer with it, but I've heard that the guys who go to CO. do pretty well on big bulls during the bugling season with that muzzle loading equipment. I assume that MT. would be similar, right?

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

... I assume that MT. would be similar, right?

Sadly, nope. Muzzle loader elk hunters must hunt during the general rifle season. There are some special late seasons for extra whitetail doe where muzzle loaders are allowed (with other primitive weapons...i.e... archery) and perhaps even a zone or two for late season elk, but no elk hunting in any of my areas (nor any areas that I know of) that is open during bugle season with muzzle loader. There may be some special permit areas, select zones, or something that I'm not aware of, but not any widely open, early-season general muzzle loader season, as in many other states. Idaho's Selway Bitterroot Wilderness would probably be one of the best bets for a muzzle loader hunt up in my neighborhood... it's real wilderness hunting and some nice bulls are routinely taken during the firearm bugle season. My guy outfits out of Unit 17.

[swamp]

575 elk... high fence but just goes to show you how big these elk can get

http://blog.kingsoutdoorworld.com/2006/10/03/the-biggest-elk-575-archery-bull/

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Yep, that was a big bull... I think it actually ended up scoring 560" SCI. Too bad it came from behind a high fence... that just doesn't 'do it' for me. I have no problem with some of these really big high fence ranches that are spread out over a godszillion acres and are primarily for rare or exotic species, as to me there is some sense to that and I guess (I've never done it) they provide a sporting experience as long as the spreads are in the x-thousands of acres in size. I don't know the details of the ranch this 560" bull came from...

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

The fence in the foreground of the photo below is more what I'm used to. Those fences hardly will keep in a semi-retarded herford! ;) Those two 'seed bulls' treat fences such as that with no respect whatsoever... :D

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/elk_musselshell_ranch_broadside.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/MTelkhunt2008.jpg

[swamp]

talk about impressive antlers... http://blog.kingsoutdoorworld.com/2006/01/23/world-record-elk-from-texas/

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

I recall seeing this huge bull before, and yes, what a massive set of antlers! Too bad about the origin, however, as once again... a product of high fence game farming - even if it was released into the wild long before being killed. It sure is a pretty set of antlers...

Quote from linked article:

"I received further proof about the conclusion it was a ranch bull when I received some interesting news. Chris mentioned to me that all the ranch bulls have tags in their ear. Even the ranch bulls that were released would still have a tag in one ear. When Ronnie arrowed this bull, Chris didn’t notice a tag in its ear and didn’t think much about it at the time. However, some time later, after the hunt, the cape and antlers were being scored and prepared for taxidermy work. The cape was inspected and it was discovered that one of the ears had a round hole in it. It was not a natural tear or hole from an injury. It was a clean, round hole. Chris admitted that the round hole sounded just like the hole that would be made to secure the metal tag from a ranch bull. It looks like this bull originally had a tag in it, but fell out."

"Conclusion:
Ronnie took this great bull in a fair chase environment, however, this bull is not a fair chase bull. It will not be accepted in the Boone and Crockett or Pope and Young record books because of the managed status of elk in Texas through the Fish and Game. Furthermore, even if elk in Texas were accepted entry into the record books, this bull would still not be eligible due to the fact that it is linked to a high fenced game farm... However, this bull was not released and immediately hunted or shot like some operations. It was in the wild for several years, but this does not change the fact that it is a ranch bull."

I find it very strange that Texas would allow the release of farm-raised elk into the wild. All wildlife biologists that I know would highly disapprove of this practice on several levels... genetic impurities (mixed genes / often of European red deer and Mongolian elk) probably foremost. This old bull sure looks 'Mongolian' to me. ;)

[Hi Ball]

I would be curious as to what it cost this Ronnie bow-hunter for the hunt down in Texas, where he arrowed this monster bull?

[Hi Ball]

South Africa has high fences for it's game operations but when you consider the area, it some times will take you 2 days or longer to find that high fence, while driving in a vehicle, on a 180,000 acre hunting farm. Now for those that don't really understand, this is and area of over 280 square miles!!! Such an area would take you 3 weeks for the best in shape hunter to cross on foot covering 20 miles a day and how many of us hunters can cover 20 miles a day on foot with your gear I ask.

I personally believe the main concern for many hunters, was this a Fair Chase situation or hunt. Well, I would like to think so, since it did have a lot of area in acres to roam. If it came from a "game - farm" 5 or 7 years ago and was released into the wild, so be it. It is not like they just turned the animal loose 2 or 3 months prior to the hunt. Outstanding rack on that bull elk and a great trophy for the hunter!

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

... If it came from a "game - farm" 5 or 7 years ago and was released into the wild, so be it. It is not like they just turned the animal loose 2 or 3 months prior to the hunt. Outstanding rack on that bull elk and a great trophy for the hunter!

Well, the primary problem would be genetics (in so far as the official B&C/P&Y record books are concerned). I have no idea about the lineal genetics of these released elk but very few game farm herds (of wapiti) have a pure North American/Rocky Mountain lineage... in fact, I don't know of any... but there could be some, I suppose. This was one of the main legal issues raised when the such high-fenced farms were under investigation in Montana (i.e. escaping elk polluting the wild gene pool and spreading disease).

Other than that, yep... it was one massive bull and a beautiful set of antlers. All of the written reports seem to point to the actuality that the hunt itself was fair chase.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/MTrifleElk_Deb076.jpg

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

By the way... the bull elk pictured above is very much wild and genetically pure! :D

[JustaNobody]

Great elk pics you have here, Wild Bill! Some real big ones, for sure! Your website looks great and some reasonable prices too! Take care.

[Hi Ball]

Wild Bill, I enjoyed looking at your web sight! Nice looking pictures and will check things out further down the road. Thanks!!!

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Thanks, JustaNobody. Yes, we do very well in the taking of trophy bulls... especially on the ranch country hunts, where at times it almost seems like hunting in Yellowstone Park!

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/MTarcheryElk070.jpg

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Howdy, Hi Ball. Thanks. It was nice chatting with you this morning.

Just so that you know, we're working on expanding the central Montana trophy elk/deer hunting to include another super area for rifle hunters... bull elk on general guaranteed license (no special permit drawing).

Our bow hunts in this same general area are guaranteed licensing - 100% tags - but the rifle license in that zone is not... and so we're working on a new area to give our rifle hunters this same advantage and excellent trophy quality, as well.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/wild_bill_hiccup/MTarcheryElk105.jpg

[JustaNobody]

Hi again Bill. I heard from one of the 'big shots' in the outdoor writing/outdoor tv world that the bull you posted the vid stills of had drops that scored like 435" B&C! WOW! You have a great trophy elk area there. That outdoors guy is sold on hunting with you guys in Montana thats for sure. Good luck and keep me at least one little 350" bull.... OK? :D

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Yes, that was one big bull... about as big as they come in the wild. The drops were indeed found on an adjoining property.

If you're looking for this year, there aint many openings left but there are several 350-inchers runnin in those hills ! ;)

Take care.

[JustaNobody]

Looks like you guys are getting more snow and colder temps again up in Montana. Did you get any final word from fish and game about changes in the archery licenses?

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

We did get a bit of snow, but not much... I think about an inch here in the valley. The temps have been decent here in the Bitterroot (like spring again today) but over to the east of the Rockies, it has been quite chilly.

I made a post to your question about the archery permits in the elk hunt video thread.

[T2133]

Great pictures, beautiful game animals Bill.

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Thanks, T2133.

Happy hunting!

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

Just a couple elk vids from the ranch country...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7pbeulRiqs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rXNDMHnSP8