45acp or 10mm, when it hits the fan...

[rimrock]

45acp or 10mm, when it hits the fan, and your life might depend on the results which is the better option and WHY??
Ive carried a 45acp or 10mm full size handgun for many years, COLTS 1911,EAA witness,AMT long slide, in 45acp,GLOCK 20, S&W 1006,in 10mm the pistols have changed occasionally but not the calibers
anyone care to tell me any reason the 45acp or 10mm should not be selected over a 9mm or 40cal as a personal defensive handgun caliber other than gun size,recoil levels and the magazine capacity and cost of ammo issues which I feel are a total non-issue, at least in my case,in that I reload and shoot ALL of those calibers accurately, and given the choice between those two, calibers,45acp or 10mm which is the better choice?

the reason I ask is that I can,t think of a single reason, if given a choice you won,t select the calibers that should at least in theory put an opponent down faster, so my personal choice seems to be between those two calibers, and IM wondering which of the two calibers is the better choice, lately Ive carried a glock 20 with a 6" barrel, or a 1006 in 10mm, but most of my friends carry 45acp pistols and insist that the bigger slugs are a better choice while I point out that the 750 ft lbs and higher velocity of the 155grn 10mm seems to hit harder to me (IVE SHOT DEER WITH BOTH CALIBERS)

10mm ammo
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=297

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=34

45acp ammo
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=299

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=95

[MOGC]

You are really bored today, huh?

[rimrock]

I posted that for two reasons, to get some feed back on the question,and mostly just trying to get some guys thinking about what THEY carry and WHY!

[Bushman]

Well, for me it has been the .45 ACP because it has stood the test of time, bullets are better now than they ever were before, ammunition is cheaper and more available so you can practice more, recoil is less than a 10mm and I would worry about over penetration with a 10mm more than with a .45 ACP. Another thing is that my Para-Ordnance P12 is has a double stack magazine with more rounds available than a single stack 10mm. In my opinion, a deer is tougher than a person, but it does give you personally a frame of reference. For the average person, a 10mm is probably a little too much of a good thing. It being overly powerful is the whole reason that the .40 S&W came into being. Psychologically that larger .45 caliber hole in the end of a stainless .45 ACP just looks more formidable to me. The 10mm is bordering on being powerful enough to be a hunting pistol, but we are talking about personal defense here, not hunting. I do have a flash back a couple weeks back when I wilderness camped in grizzly country north of Yellowstone when all I had along was a night sighted .45 ACP. I'd have changed it in a second for the M629 .44 magnum back home in the gun safe. It would be a tough two legged varmint that would stand up to a 230 grain .45 ACP Hydra-Shok JHP though.

[Bushman]

I've been noodling around the question for an hour or so and think that there is just a narrow range of cartridges that are ideal for any given situation. To use my camping in bear country analogy, a .44 magnum would be better for a bear and while it would work for personal defense, it is outside the squares of being just too powerful. The same with rifle cartridges. Like many of you, I have used a .300 WM for deer hunting and while it worked okay, I've been much more content using a more moderate .300 Savage, 7mm-08 or a .308. A .45 ACP is enough without being too much and fits within that narrow range that I think is the ideal for a personal defense cartridge.

[GF.]

Energy, schmenergy!

1) Without striking the spine, I've dropped deer every bit as quickly with a .54 RB at 1700-1800 fps as with a 7-08 launching a 150-grain Sierra about 1000 fps faster. Obviously, we're talking about much higher velocities than just about any handgun, but fact is that what matters is where you hit 'em and getting adequate penetration.


2) 'Energy' derived from velocity is lost upon impact; 'energy' derived from mass is retained. And the faster you drive a bullet, the faster you lose velocity, but a big hunk of lead takes a lotta stopping, no matter what...

3) The 'energy' figures for my .45/70 are almost trivial when compared to something like a .243, yet there is quite a bit of criticism for the old girl's 'heavy' recoil (and this round often gets used for scope 'abuse' testing) while a .243 is generally considered something of a Sissy Gun with -barring a super-premium bullet - an unusually controversial history of effectiveness.

Zipping a bullet through real fast (or having it blow to pieces) may produce a lightning-bolt kill, or it may produce a tough tracking job. Big, heavy bullets hit hard when they pass through, and they smack like a freight train when they don't. There's a reason that the DG Stopping Rifles have crappy 200-yard ballistics.

So JMO...

Whether you're deer/Elk hunting or dealing with a 2-legger with your hide on the line, you ought to pack as potent a round as you can control effectively - up until you get to the class you're talking about, anyway... I don't believe there's much debate about the effectiveness of the old .45 Colt whether it's LC, ACP or otherwise... Beyond that, though, I'd think that other factors such as muzzle flash & report would factor in.

But what a person can handle is basically determined by recoil tolerance, and that comes down to powder and lead. You don't get big energy numbers without using a lot of flaming gas to push a lightish bullet at high speeds. That means a lot of flash & bang, and while it might actually disorient the Bad Guy, there's no sense (IMO) in setting off a flash-bang grenade right in front of your own damn face in hopes that it'll screw him up worse than it does you.

Then, too, what if the guy is armored up somehow? I don't know if anybody has run a study on the effectiveness of different rounds against body-armored opposition, but I'd think that the heavier slugs might pack the meaner wallop--if you can't defeat the armor, then maybe the next best thing is to take as much air out of the guys as possible...


:confused:

[Badger]

rimrock,

I would take a .45 ACP. If the bad guy is armored up, just shoot 200 grain JHPs on his sternum until he disappears from the front sight.

Badger

[Dennis Keith]

Well I carry the .45acp on my new job. It just appears to be one more thing that old Mr Browning put together correctly. I had to carry my Smith 66 on the last gig (company policy) and though, I can hit with either rather well, I have three extra rounds with the Springer. I've had a 1911 for close to forty-years and even with the big target grips on the 66 I just like having that big old bullet more than I like the high speed .357, regardless of weight and energy. Big and heavy just seem to get to the "end of the job" a bit quicker from the reports of gun fights that I have read. Not having been in one, I have to go with the "evidence" as I see it.

[Hi Ball]

Well, I have several 45acp caliber pistols and two of them will shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards right out of the box. A Les Baer gun will cost you starting out at $1,700 bucks and they say they will do 3 inch groups at 50 yards.

However, when it comes to carrying nowdays (Wake up GC!!!) I am sticking with my GLOCK 29 or 20 model simply put. A picture is worth a thousand words and ole English teacher once told me. Go to AR-15.com and see the results of the ballistic gelletin shot with various calibers. The 10mm takes all Gents!!!:eek::cool::cool::D

[Bushman]

But Hi Ball, you are a way more dedicated pistol shooter than the average guy packing out there. When you are talking 10mm full power loads, you might as well be talking about the equivalent of a .41 Magnum out of a revolver. It is just a lot more pistol than most guys can handle. To make an analogy to my deer hunting again, the deer I shot with a 7mm RM and a .300 WM had bigger holes in them, but I've had the heart and lungs strain through my fingers using my 7mm-08 and .308 and the deer went down just as fast as with the larger magnums. Wouldn't you agree that there is a practical maximum for the average defensive handgun?

[Hi Ball]

Bushman yes I will give you that for a fact! Years ago the 9mm Luger was just about in the same boat energy wise as the .380-auto is today. However, with new powder and bullet development, things have change and the 9mm Luger is NO PUSSY CAT in the energy department. POW-R-BALL uses a 100 grain bullet going over 1400fps and develops 488 lbs of kinetic energy.

My wife shoots this in her Glock 26 and I venture to say that 99.5 percent of all men can handle the 9mm Luger nowdays also. Yes Bushman, I have been shooting a lot of years with a pistol and it does take lots of rounds and proper practice to be able to hang on to some of those larger calibers like the .41mag, 10mm or 44 mag. I think a good .357mag is within most mens reach with steady practice and dedication to want to shoot that round too.

[MOGC]

HiBall, I am fully awake. You are a good guy, but tend to be a little quirky IMHO. Just a little while ago you made the statement that the .380 would do anything a CCW holder would need done. You rode that bus for awhile and after the mouse guns didn't work out you dumped that notion and went to the extreme opposite by hitching your wagon to the 10mm. I'm waiting to see where you'll land next as you bounce around extolling the virtues of your next whim.

Me? I tend to like proven and solid, reliable, no guess work kinda things. I am happy and confident in my choice of the 1911 .45 ACP as a carry gun. I shoot it very well and have "rode the river" with that combination for many years. It gives me peace of mind. You work out your bugs with whatever suits you and I'll be happy for you and pray you pack it safely and peacefully.

[Hi Ball]

MoGC..........Ummmmmmmm Quirky, now you don't say mate! Now just what river boat you been sailing on these days Captain Hook? Your shorts must have been tied in a knot this morning before you laced into them!!! I don't believe I ever stated that the .380-auto was the one to carry for all those with a CCW permit savvy. I sure did go through several small CHEAP & SMALL .380-auto and the 9mm Luger as well before the dust settled in the OK corral in the backyard. I did however run the tests and give the results on a forum or two.

I satisfied my wife's curiosity through my bank-account, when it came to a pistol or two she thought she wanted. I presented the facts to her in a couple of tests and the truth unveiled itself. The fact that I purchased several just keeps the money circulating around the county. Now beside I can afford to spend a dollar or two.:rolleyes:

Now "River Man" I just want you to know, that I been handeling the 45acp caliber in Colts and Kimbers for years and realize the effectiveness and the downfalls of said caliber in a semi-auto handgun. Why I was doing so when you took your first "river ride" in a bathtub and a rubber ducky.

I turned my nose up at those ugly GLOCKS for over 25 years in case you want to name that tune as well!!!:rolleyes: The fact is simply that nothing on the market ever outshot my Colt Python period. The only reason I ever went to the Gold Cup or model 70 series was because of competitive shooting.:eek: :D Those auto's had a big advantage over us wheelgun types.

Well, there is some truth to the fact, you can teach on old dog a new trick or two even it they can not run with the pack anymore. The moral to that statement is that my Glocks in the 10mm are much more the caliber than any 45acp on the market for self-defense. Now that is the way I see things through my eyes. Now I also have the Glock 22 in the 40 and the Glock 27 in the .40 cal, as I remember you don't care for that caliber. Funny how 90% of US Law Enforcement is using the .40 cal. I'll use what I wish to use and don't need any advice from someone who has only gone down 20 miles of that 40 mile road.

Those GLOCKS make an excellent carry gun for anyone with a CCW period. You don't have to carry a Glock locked & cocked, like your model 1911 45acp. On the contrary my good man, you just simply pull the Glock and pull the trigger making it go BANG BANG BANG!!! Hey, I still think the Glocks are UGLY but they are the best blessed weapon on the market in my eyes for self defense purposes. Now down to the real ballistic facts shall we, the velocity of my 10mm is at least 400fps faster than your 45acp "River Man" :D The kinetic energy is another 300-lbs more depending on who's ammo is used. One does not need a PHD to realize the physical results of a geletin block test between the 10mm and the 45acp to sort out the truth. I rest my case "River Pirate" and don't let those Ozark Crocks, bit you in the ARSE anytime soon.:D :D

[MOGC]

Although the .380-auto is NOT a so called Stopper, it is sufficient to take care of 85% of most problems that might arise on the street using the Cor-Bon brand ammo in the little roach killer.


Ok, note this part of the direct quote, "...it is sufficient to take care of 85% of most problems that might arise on the street..." Your words...

[Hi Ball]

MOGC,.....So you want to go on some kind of "witch hunt" well those are NOT my words but those I barrowed from a well known gun rag! His expertise is somewhat more advanced in the department of pistols than mine. :rolleyes:

If someone were to lay their hands on your body (in other words close up and personnel) the .380-auto caliber pistol will take care of things in a hurry. I sure wouldn't want to get hit with 3 shots to the chest, at point blank range with Cor-Bon ammo coming out the barrel my dear River Man. One would never be able to read the newspaper the next morning for being dead as a door nail.:eek: :D

It seems as though popular demand has brought a great deal of interest in the making of new .380-auto caliber pistols by several gun manufacturers. The ammo is very hard to get because of the run on all those whose total is astonding in numbers compared to other handgun calibers. All in the name of a SELF-DEFENSE weapon of choice. :)

Now this .308-auto caliber does not meet my standards of having a pistol for self defense (never did really) and being able to cover all the bases from point blank to 50 yards, especially if under fire at the time. Thus the 10mm comes into play like magic wond. Great penetration, shoots flatter than a table top and doesn't have a softball trajectory like the much slower 45 acp.:p;)

The only reason the .380 caliber made it into our home, was because my wife purchased them in the first place. Sold to her by some gun dealer down your way for starters. Nonetheless the saga with the .380-auto is over and she now has what fits her and what is a good weapon for self-defense, a GLOCK model 26 in the 9mm Luger caliber, it simply works for women. ;):D:D

[MOGC]

They are the words YOU typed in YOUR post as YOUR opinion. You gave no reference to anyone else. It is what it is... and nobody really cares all that much. It is the Internet, big deal. You get worked up too easy friend.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Someone_Is_Wrong_On_The_Internet.jpg

[Just a Hunter]

45acp or 10mm when crap hits the fan.
9mm or 45 when crap hits the fan
380 or 9mm when crap hits the fan
380 or 10 mm when crap hits the fan

such topics tend to begin with alot of talk of energy, ballistics, trajectory etc etc etc, but how is so much of it really relevant?

Is a lasar flat trajectory really relevant for a pistol which is intended to be used for self defense? It's very unlikly you will need to make a shot over 20feet and far more likly it will be under 12 feet should you ever need your pistol for self defense.

How important is it to get a pistol that has the greatest amount of penetration available? Penetration can be both a asset and one of great detriment at the same time. I could feel very confident in protecting my house with a 44mag, but I wouldnt wish to live with the guilt if a bullet was to exit my assailant and find its way into my neighbors house

The ballistics of my cartridge is far superior to that of your own choice.
(yawn) everyone is so interested in the pistol cartridge that is expected to flat drop anyone it hits, but we all need to stop for a second and be honest with ourselves. A pistol cartridge's ballistics flat out pale in comparison to those of a rifle cartridge. How many of us have made a excellent shot on deer sized game only to see them run off after the shot. I myself have shot dozens of deer with 7mm & 300 Win mags and there are no guarantee's your not going to track your deer afterwards.

SO what really makes for a goodchoice in a self defense cartridge?

I would say most any cartridge that is capable of around 12 inches of penetration and that can expand to .50 or greater on impact.

If one cartridge is capable of doing so with less recoil than another I will gladly shoot the lighter recoil of the two.

If I also get the benefit of a higher capacity magazine in one cartridge than the otherI will happily take a few more bullets if needed.

Here is a few results that many might find interesting.
9mm Remington 147gr Golden Saber JHP
penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.622".
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html

.45ACP Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P
penetrated to 12.3 ” and expanded to 0.668
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FlyingAshtray.html

Remington 10mm 180gr JHP
expanded to 0.647" average diameter and penetrated to 12.7
expanded to 0.664" average diameter and penetrated to 13.1
expanded to 0.669" average diameter and penetrated to 14.1" plus. The 'plus' is because the bullet exited the back of the block and penetrated ~ 4" into the polyester bullet arresting box. The bullets actual penetration should be well over 15
http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html


I would feel more than confident with a quality 9mm cartridge that can penetrate close to the same distance as a 45acp or a 10mm and expand to a diameter that is within a few hundreds of a inch of what the other two are capable of. If as a benefit I can carrry twice the ammo as the other two offerings with less recoil I can only see this as a benefit.

Is the 9mm a better cartridge than the 10mm or a 45acp for self defense? For my wishes I would prefer a good 9mm, but I understand that for others it has no merit. I must admit that with the latest segment of high capacity 45acp pistols such as is being offered by Springfield I may yet carry one in the future.

Would the 10mm be a better hunting cartridge than a 45acp or 9mm? Sure it would, but then again there are better cartridges available if hunting is what one wishes to do with there pistols.

[Bushman]

Then too the size of the pistol enters into the equation. Sure, given the choice of what pistol to have in my hand in the gravest extreme it would be a big one. When the car or the truck gets to carry the pistol, it will be a big one. When I have to carry the pistol, it is nearly always a smaller framed .380 ACP and is probably the reason that the smaller framed .380's and 9mm's are so popular. If I was 50 yards away and still shooting, I wonder how the law would view that as an immanent treat? In reality if I was 50 yards away it would have meant that one of us just did a 40 yard dash. Where I go the likelihood of an armed confrontation is very remote. A .380 ACP in the hand beats a big 10mm or .45 ACP back the truck or home in the gun safe.

[Hi Ball]

MOGC.......My opinion is formulated from all the tests I have done in the passed and those that others have done. My education on the subject matter lays with what I have read printed by professional writers who also gather information and put it out to public.

Now trying to be cute or turn something I typed on a hunting forum makes no "never mind" to me what so ever understand. Like I stated before I do have an opinion and I got that opinion from my tests and reading others tests and words of wisdom.

YOU evidently have a HANG UP on the model 1911 45acp, I surely don't even though I own several and have shot in competition doing so (back when you were playing with that Rubber Ducky in the bathtub) as well as using a wheel gun too.

Now getting worked up Nah! I don't get worked up much at all Mr. Carter but then you don't really know me from Adam. So on with your sketch work and next time try adding color ok.

PS.....I had a little conversation with a couple of friends of mine, who just happen to work for J. Edgar Hoover's long time administration. They agree that having a 10mm would be a big plus for those male agents in the field, over what they have now. Mr. Carter you have a great day and I'll pray you don't get wet going down the river ok.:D:D:D

[Hi Ball]

Bushman you said a mouthful and it is more important to have it and not need it than to need it and NOT have it on your person. NO MATTER WHAT THE CALIBER IS AT THE TIME !!! ;)

Now that goes for a .32 cal, 380-auto, 38spl, 9mm Luger, .357 mag, 40 cal S&W, 10mm, .41mag, or the 44 mag.

Bushman there are several self-defense DVD's that teach you how to retreat under gunfire and while returning fire. It takes only a second or two to be 20 to 25 yards to the rear while firing your pistol and retreating at the same time. You NEVER want to be a standing target in front of someone who would be shooting at you or about to shoot. I am positive MO-GC will share my view on this point.;) :D :D

[MOGC]

Who the heck is "Carter" and what dang river and "River Man" do you keep referring too? LOL... You have me mixed up with someone else I think. You say you don't get worked up but you keep throwing those defensive jabs out there. Just carry on a conversation and ease up on the trash talk. This is the Internet, nobody really cares about this stuff, none of us that I am aware of is a "paid professional opinion sharer." I said it before, but I'll say it again... I do NOT care what you CCW. I have said that and wished you well, and, that you pack it safely and in peace. Seriously…

[Hi Ball]

Well, he is some younger whipper snapper that makes a living sneaking around the woods trying to catch Ozark Mountain people poaching deer, turkey and big catfish. He lives back in the boondocks with the coyotes, opposum and coon.

I once seen the man with a Hwy. patrolman friend of mine at Roseners resturant. Never said anything cause the state tropper was working undercover at the time. Just so you know I do get around down in that leadbelt area and have a dozen relatives who still reside down that way. Now hold on to that rubber ducky ok!:D:D;)

[MOGC]

My rubber ducky packs a 1911 .45 ACP... he doesn't need taking care of! LOL!!! Take care... :)

[Hi Ball]

MO-GC......Now if that Ducky of yours quites Quacking, I'll come running with my 10mm's Blazing!!!:D :D :D

[MOGC]

If that should happen any and all help would be appreciated. :)

[Bwana416]

Seems he was called to testify on behalf of some guy who had to defend himself with his 10mm and factory hollowpoints. The weasel of a DA tried to get the jury riled up with talk of "overpowered and deadly magnum hollowpoints". He was able to get the guy acquitted but with difficulty do to the jury's lack of any gun knowledge. :mad:

Seems that's the problem with the 10mm. It gets a rep as a "high powered" handgun when you end up in court. The public has NO clue what a .40 S&W is but it is carried by many police departments and was developed in part for the FBI. That makes it more defensible as is the .45ACP since it is also accepted by the Bureau and many LEO agencies and has been around for 98 years.

Just a random thought.

-Ray

[MOGC]

Actually there is a guy in Arizona that was back packing and ran into a rude dude and bad dog at the trail head. The hiker was packing a 10mm and somehow got into an altercation with the rude dude and his dog. Hiker ends up shooting and killing the dude and the 10mm was played up to be a huge factor in the trial. The hiker stated he had the 10mm to protect himself from mountain lions and bears on the trail, which as we know is perfectly logical. The jury didn't see it the same way and later when interviewed stated they felt the 10mm was overkill and blah, blah, blah. Terrible "BS" for the hiker, though quite honestly it did seem he shot too quickly in this incident. But the caliber of the weapon should not have been a factor at all. But you can bet a lawyer is going to make a issue of anything they can to win their case - rightfully or not.

[Bushman]

I remember that case. The dog attacked the hiker and the hiker killed the dog. The dog's owner was irate at came at the hiker and was killed too. I never heard how it came out.

I do wonder how a jury would regard that specialty prefragmented ammunition like the Glaser or MagSafe? I remember that Winchester got into some problems by introducing their Black Talon hollow points as being too destructive. In reality the name was better than the bullets were, but the jury didn't know that.

[MOGC]

You can't trust lawyers and you can't trust people on a jury to have common sense, simple is always best.

[Hi Ball]

MO-GC yep words are wisdom for a fact! Lawyers working for the state are always trying to make a case of something to promote their future activities in politics down the road.

Now MO, that is why I carry a GLOCK model 22 (.40cal S&W) carried by 90% of Leo's in the USA. However, my Glock 29 in 10mm is my backup just in case I need a backup savvy~!:):D :D

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I don't have a 10mm, or a 40 or a 9mm. I do have a 1911 in 45 ACP and a 45 ACP cylinder for my Uberti 1873 Cattleman, so the choice is obvious for me. Even so I would still want the larger bullet (weight and claiber).

Alan

[Hi Ball]

Alan if you ever fire a 10mm into a line of gallon jugs filled with water, you will see in a big hurry the absolute power of the 10mm bullet over some of the more popular calibers for self-defense, such as the 45acp, 9mm Luger and the .40cal S&W. It also shoots very fast using a 165 grn bullet at 1350fps. I use a 180 grn at 1275fps.:D

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Hi Ball, If I'm ever attacked by a line of water filled milk jugs I can only hope I have a 10mm and an extra clip.

I've always had some thoughts about self defense. #1 - I try like Hell to stay out of situations the might require self defense with a firearm. That's really easy in Goliad, Texas because we have an exceptionally low crime rate and I've probably put anyone I might have to defend myself against between 18 and 35 in after school or Saturday detention so they leave me alone. #2 - For all comers in regards to home defense I'll probably use a shotgun if the need arises. It's very decisive, gets the job done and over with and really is not much messier than a pistol. You should see what a load of #2's does to a milk jug. #3 - when the police ask me about shooting someone, and they will, I'm going to have an old double barrel shotgun in my hand and not a 10mm or a 45 ACP/9mm/40cal., you know, like I wasn't waiting for something like that to happen??!?!!??

I have only one automatic pistol anyway, the 1911, and it was my grandfather's. It's a Colt and I don't shoot it much. In handguns I prefer revolvers and single actions most of all. I don't carry concealed, no need, and most days it would be illegal anyway. I am probably a better than average shot with a pistol and probably better than many of our LEOs. If I did ever decide to get my permit I would probably buy a short barreled Uberti of some other Colt replica in 45 Colt and get a 45 ACP Cylinder for it as well. They have just slightly more bulk than a 1911 and the first shot is what is going to be important anyway. Oh well, to each his own.

Alan

[Hi Ball]

Alan you and I think along the same lines! Yep, got my 590 Mossberg loaded up with #6's next to my bed. You know that in a street confrontation, must of the time it is going to be real close and the 45 caliber is a great piece to have (provided one can shoot it acurately) in such cases.

I don't suspect I will be shooting any milk jugs full of water in the future but I will say those 10mm sure do a job. However, I am not going to even begin to comparing them to a shotgun up close

Love to needle that young river captain known as MOGC. I understand very well about a shotgun up close and have run various tests on several types of shot and slugs over the years. They can get real messy!!!:eek:

Yes indeed, the police will ask the questions but the prosecutors are the people one has to please. Lawyers who will blow up a great big BAD picture of anybody having more than a simple small caliber in their hands to defend themselves......not to mention those, who may be on a jury that never have even fired a weapon in their entire life.

Now if I ever get down to your way in TEXAS, I'll be only to happy to show you my pair of self defense tools. Why I reckon even MOGC would get a big kick out of holding those critters.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

"All engagements involving a shotgun are of relative short duration". - Col. Jeff Cooper.

Alan

[Bill Gunn]

I've probably put anyone I might have to defend myself against between 18 and 35 in after school or Saturday detention so they leave me alone. Alan

:D :D :D Is that the age range of the students? :p :p

We have a bunch like that in NY. They usually graduate them at the age of 36 "In the best interest of all involved, community, and individual" :p

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Sometimes I wonder! That would be the age range that I had anything to do with so far.

Alan