Why isn't the .458 WM a more popular choice?

[Bushman]

Not that I'll ever own something that big, but I've seen the .458 Winchester Magnum in line for bashing for a lot of years. Most recently in Bwana416's post on an African battery. I could see why a .460 Weatherby Magnum with 108 foot pounds of recoil would not be a popular choice, but why isn't the .458 WM with about half that recoil a good one for larger game?

[postoak]

I wouldn't want one because I've read a number of places that the velocity figures for it are not correct. It doesn't quite achieve them -- at least in 22 " or below barrels. Not achieving them, it doesn't quite cut the mustard. In fact, the .458 Lott was designed to achieve the actual velocity figures published for the .458 Winchester.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Lott


While the .458 Winchester Magnum remains a contender, it has always lacked true stopping power. Its stubby 2.50-inch (64 mm) case lacks the powder capacity to attain 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s)-or-greater velocities, which are viewed as the minimum acceptable by most knowledgeable hunters. The Lott, on the other hand, delivers 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) velocities from 24-inch (610 mm)-barreled rifles, which in turn produces 6,020 ft·lbf (8,160 J) of muzzle energy—1,400 ft·lbf more than the .458 Winchester.



Now the above may not be true, but a lot of people believe it and so have turned away from this cartridge.

[Indy]

All the BS about the .458 not having enough power is hooey. It refers to some ineptitude involving how Winchester loaded their .458 ammo in the 1950s.

It is a simple thing to load 500 grain bullets to 2200 fps in the .458 WM. I prefer to use 450 grain bullets because the 450 grain flat point solids will out penetrate 500 grain round nosed solids and the recoil is noticeably less. I load mine to 2250 because that's the velocity I need. Incidentally, those figures are with a 22" barrel.

[Hi Ball]

Indy I will come out of the clouds just to let you know, the .458 Winchester Magnum is enough gun, especially now days with the bullet and powder choices. Yes, all the bad HIPE came about when Winchester powder and loadings caused problems for many back in those days of glory.

I have both the model 70 pre-64 action, in .458 Winchester magnum with a 22 inch barrel and a .458-LOTT with a 24 inch barrel. Sure the LOTT hits harder but it is more than is needed and it will get your friggin attention in a big hurry, when that recoil comes back to slap your jaw and upper torso.

Now make no mistake, a good soft point bullet in the chamber of a .458 Winchester Magnum on on thin or medium skinned animals or a "solid" for dangerous game and your good to go, weather it is a push fed or controlled round fed magazine. Finn Aagaarad didn't have any trouble downing big African dangerous game with his push fed .458-Winchester Magnum, dangerous or otherwise.

It also makes one heck of a rifle to pack along on thick brush hunts for those wild boar. I use both 350 grain and 450 grain bullets in my 22 inch short barrel and it stops BIG HOGS (350 plus lbs) in their tracks with very little if any meat damage. It pulls the rug right out from underneath any bear and hits them like the "hammer of Thor".

[rimrock]

now IVE NEVER been to Africa, But I do own a 458 win mag, , and I have owned a 458 LOTT and anyone that says a properly loaded 458 win doesn,t hit with authority is "lets be nice" (stretching the facts a bit),both calibers loaded with 450grn-500grn solids shoot thru a great deal of plywood so I don,t think your risking much thinking either caliber won,t prove deadly at short ranges, I know for a FACT a 458 properly loaded shoots thru over 14" of plywood, yes I think the 458 LOTT is the superior cartridge but don,t assume the 458 win bounces off game

458 lott
http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=1766&caliber=.45&caliberid=26&header=.45%20Caliber%20Reloading%20Data

http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/Lott_data.htm


458 win
http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=458%20Winchester%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Winchester_Magnum

http://www.chuckhawks.com/458Win.htm

[postoak]

So, back to the OPs original question. Why isn't the .458 WM a more popular choice?

[Indy]

So, back to the OPs original question. Why isn't the .458 WM a more popular choice?

First, the .458WM is probably MORE popular with people who actually live in and hunt in Africa. The Lott is more popular with amateur sportsmen who are buying their first heavy rifle and will use it once (maybe).

The Lott is more popular because of all the misdirected hype directed toward the WM. Also the industry has a vested interest in making us buy new rifles.

Finally, those who don't shoot handloads (I have a hard time understanding such people because I never let factory rounds pollute my barrels) find some wimpy factory loads and judge the caliber by those. The see Winchester loading the .458WM to 2040 fps because Winchester is too cheap to use decent powder. Hornady loads the same round to 2200 fps.

My take is that, if I were buying a rifle, I would probably buy the Lott. But if I had a .458WM I would be foolish to rechamber it to the Lott.

[Wismon]

I don't understand why anyone would want a .458 Lott -- such folks must not like having their retina's attached. I guess if the rifle's heavy enough it would be ok, but somehow there's a trend amongst so many to have a lightweight rifle. And often it seems that somehow the loudenboomers and lightweight rifles attract the same clientele.

My $.02 worth.

[Indy]

Look at the Barnes reloading data on their web site. The Lott only gets 50 to 70 fps on the Winchester and it needs compressed loads to do even that.

[DUGABOY1]

All the BS about the .458 not having enough power is hooey. It refers to some ineptitude involving how Winchester loaded their .458 ammo in the 1950s.

It is a simple thing to load 500 grain bullets to 2200 fps in the .458 WM. I prefer to use 450 grain bullets because the 450 grain flat point solids will out penetrate 500 grain round nosed solids and the recoil is noticeably less. I load mine to 2250 because that's the velocity I need. Incidentally, those figures are with a 22" barrel.

……………………………………458 Win Mag

I don’t know why young folks who weren’t around in the 458 Win Mags problem days want to somehow deny that there was ever any problem with it. It was a dangerous cartridge in its youth, and very unpredictable. Winchester simply expected too much from that cartridge, with a 500 gr bullet, and compressing the powder trying to get 2200 fps out of a case that small. All it needed was a lighter bullet (480 gr soft & solid) and a little more powder capacity, for the powders available at the time.

Indy is correct in one thing most of the problems with the 458 Win Mag were in its infancy. However that infancy lasted 40 yrs before a partial cure was found. It is amazing that a cartridge that was designed purposefully to protect it owner from some very dangerous game animals lived long enough to be fixed.

For some reason Winchester chose to try to make a Nitro Express replacement cartridge, that was historically made on a 3 ¼” case, with a short 65 mm case in mod 70, instead of using the full length 375H&H case which the mod 70 held quite well. A case that would have solved any shortcomings from the get go! It would have easily yielded the velocity, and would have done it with less chamber pressure as well. The powders of 1954, the year the 458 Win Mag was introduced, were not right for a case that small to push a 500 gr bullet to 22oo fps.

It is true that today the 458WM can be loaded to the velocities that it was originally advertised to. But it just barely can be after 40 yrs that it couldn’t. The powders that make this easily possible have only been available for about six years or so, and one must load to max and/or use lighter bullets to get it done today. The biggest problem with the 458 Win Mag was case capacity, or the lack of.

The 458 Win Mag was supposed to take the place of the 450NE 3 ¼” cartridge, not the 470NE that has been stated many times in print in the gun rags. All that Winchester needed to do to make a fine cartridge of the 458 Win Mag was to use the full length 375 H&H case to simply add a little more powder room, and use the 480 gr bullet used by the 450NE, and load it very easily to the 2150 fps of the 450NE but in a case that would work in a bolt action.

Everybody has the wrong idea about the 458 LOTT. It only needs to be loaded up to the 2150 fps sweet spot with a 480 gr soft and solid, and is what the 458 Win Mag should have been in the first place, and that bad reputation would have never happened.

Because the 458 Win Mag cartridge can be loaded to good velocity today, doesn’t mean it didn’t spend 40 years giving problems. All could have been avoided with the 375 H&H case necked out to take the .458 bullets, (the Lott or Watts case) and not over loaded. The 450NE is the cartridge at 2150fps with a 480gr bullet was the one that set the bars height, and that is the way I load my 458 LOTT.

In 1955 I bought one of the first mod 70, 458 Win Mag rifles sold in El Paso, Texas, and over the next four or five years it worked fine with freshly loaded ammo. Though a little slow, it worked. However, once the ammo had been loaded for a month or two I started experiencing squib loads, and an occasional hang fire. I pulled the bullet on a dud load, and found the powder was caked into a solid, and the primer had moved the bullet out some but not out of the case mouth completely. I sold that rifle, and bought a Mod 70 375H&H and never regretted it. That thing was just like the mailman it hit the same spot every time no matter the weather, heat or cold. Today I have a Ruger No1 458 Win Mag that shoots just fine, but I load my own ammo, with 480 gr softs at 2000 fps for Alaska, because I still don’t trust factory ammo, no matter who makes it, nor do I believe the500 gr bullet is right for the 458 Win Mag. Besides that load will take anything I will ever shoot with the Ruger No1.

[Savage 99]

Hornady is loading Superperformance .458 Win with 500-gr DGX and DGS bullets to 2140 fps from a 24-inch barrel. That might be worth a look, as they are using some new kind of powder, and claiming lower recoil for typical loads. If those bullets suit your applications, and if the powder is not too compressed, then this could be acceptable factory ammunition for .458.

[Indy]

I don't understand why the loading companies load the .458 so lightly. It's easy to get 2200 inatrumental (about 2215 at the muzzle) with 500 grain bullets in a 22" barrel, and no compaction, no pressure signs, and the cases just about fall out of the barrel.

Hornady's loading manual even lists a 2200 fps load, though that particular load proved over maximum (2376 fps, louder sound, sharper kick, burnished cartridge head, and sticky bolt lift) on the one round I fired.

Nevertheless, 2200 fps is easy with no special powders and yes it works at high temperatures.

[rimrock]

I may be in the minority but I hunt to relax and enjoy using a rifle, and to prove to myself Im both skilled enough to get close to game and a good shot and skilled with a rifle or hand gun,
one point that's been over looked is that theres lots of guys who own 458 win and 458 LOTT rifles that will NEVER use them in AFRICA!
most of us don,t have the funds or the time to spend but we can still dream and playing with bigger bore rifles can be fun!
now I own and use both calibers and find them to be very useful calibers but I also don,t load either caliber to its full potential, I load both to approximately the same levels as a 450 marlin, but keep in mind their use is more as a grin,, I own the rifles,...I like to hunt with a larger bore rifle, and its always good for a conversation if you meet some one and they ask what your hunting with, they pull out a 243 win and you watch their expression when you hand them a 458 LOTT, (worth the price of admission)Ive used both on ELK hunts but loaded with either hard cast bullets or 350-405 grain jacketed bullets at about 1800-1900fps which is more than enough to produce the desired results, if you slowly still hunt the thicker timber theres really no huge down side to use of the big rifles, other than their weight and recoil, but if your a gun nut that's not to much to pay for getting to hunt with and play with your BIG RIFLE
now obviously if you own those calibers its almost mandatory that you hand load as a decent hard cast bullet and loading to only about 1800fps both reduces recoil and greatly reduces cost, factory ammo can cost over $2 a cartridge, hand loads less than 50 cents each
and yeah! you smack an elk with a 405 grain rem you launched at ONLY 1800fps and as hard as, it may be for velocity junkys to believe, the bullets don,t bounce off and yes you can with some practice still consistently make well placed hits out to easily 200-250 yards
besides you can just about forget about not seeing a reaction from game, to bullet impact of not getting an exit wound, and keep in mind those big sharps buffalo rifles you read about never came close to a down loaded 458 LOTT in power or flat trajectory

[Chuck S]

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm First take a look at the link and as you can see the lower velocity of the 458 Win may be responsible for it's greater penetration over the 458 Lott. From several sources*, my take on it's unpopularity, was and is due to it's past poor bullet construction. I suppose that each caliber/bullet will have a sweet spot and I saw a recent one where a .308 was gradually reduced in velocity from about 2800 down to 1500 or so. The sweet spot, using the exact same bullet was at or around 1800 fps where penetration was greatest and dropped off as velocity increased or decreased. With very stout bullet construction for the Lott, I would bet it would give a tad bit more penetration over the Win but it would be slight or I miss my guess. As was posted above my bet is that the sweet spot for present solids out of 458s would be in that 2200 range and both can achieve that. * such as LaGrange's Ballisitcs in Perspective.

[GF.]

The sweet spot, using the exact same bullet was at or around 1800 fps where penetration was greatest and dropped off as velocity increased or decreased.

Lemme guess - at 1800 fps, the bullet barely expanded at all...

Penetration

Expansion

Pick one.

Well, not that bad, but you can't get more of one without settling for less of the other. So if you use the Lott to push the bullet faster, you sghould get greater penetration from the Lott when you use solids (assuming zero expansion) and better penetration from the Win when you use softpoints. Energy goes up as the square of the velocity, but resistance (as frontal area) goes up by the square as well... You shed a lot of velocity doing the work of flattening out a bullet, so the resistance goes up by the square and the 'energy' goes down by the square.

So that 'sweet spot' for any bullet is when the slug is moving as fast as possible - but without the impact forces being enough to deform the bullet to any significant degree.... In which case, the sweet spot velocity would have to vary , depending on what you hit....

[rimrock]

Id always been under the impression that the 458win was designed to push a 500 grain to 2150fps and the longer case of the 458 lott was useful top push a heavier 600 grain to about 2100fps to gain even MORE penetration
remember there are designed for close in stopping work, certainly not for more than 120 yards so velocity as far a trajectory goes is far less important than accuracy and extreme penetration

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=2294&caliber=.45&caliberid=26&header=.45%20Caliber%20Reloading%20Data

[GF.]

... for close in stopping work, certainly not for more than 120 yards so velocity as far a trajectory goes is far less important than accuracy and extreme penetration.



Take out the word "stopping", and you're basically talking about what I'd really consider a good deer round..... Which explains my .45/70 :grin:

Kind of interesting, though; in various conversations around here we've established that - at least on a physics quiz - the more slowly the bullet transits the animal, the more damage it will do. So the slowest bullet that will still have a useful trajectory should have the advantage right up to the point where the resistance of flesh on bullet is enough to prevent complete penetration. The slower you go, the greater the importance of the 'mass to frontal area' ratio...

In that case, the Lott should win, then, no?

So why isn't the .458 Win more popular? Probably has next-to-nothing to do with ballistics, really. The Lott has a theoretical, on-paper advantage, but more importantly, the cartridge is longer and meaner looking. The muzzle energy figure is more terrifying. The recoil an even greater test of manliness. And the fantasy is to hunt Africa with the biggest, baddest sumbitch available - not a runner-up. And let's face it - if you were in a spot that actually called for a right-freakin'-now Stopping Rifle, wouldn't you want to be holding every advantage imaginable, whether it was imaginary or not?

So it probably does (IMO) come down to a matter of imaginary advantages (call them 'perceived' if you're in a gentler mood) to the Lott vs. a lot of imaginary shortcomings of the Winchester.

Personally, I've no use for either one of them - real, imaginary or otherwise. When I've daydreamed of hunting Big 5 types o' critters, I've never once imagined myself cradling a bolt gun. At least not so far as I can recall....

[Chuck S]

Mike LaGrange in his small but mighty book titled, Ballistics in Perspective, and covering the subjects of testing momentum, velocity, energy, knock down power and more on cartridges commonly used in Africa devotes several pages to discussion on the 458 Win and it's problems. Seems as if his conclusions include poor bullet construction, and Winchester loading the cartridge to less than it's advertised capability prior to 1983. His penetration tests showed conclusively that at the time of that book the cartridge wasn't working as it should have even when compared to ballistically identical loads according to manufacturer in the tests. 460 Short A Square versus the 458 Win using identical 500 gr bullets and both at 2400 fps. The A Square bullet gave penetration averaging 1250 while the Win gave an average of around 950 mms. Seems as if Winchester was either lo balling their loads of A Square was getting more oooomph than listed. The first edition was in 83 and the second was in 1990. He does mention that by the 1990 printing the loads were as advertised by Winchester and on par with similar loads.

[Indy]

"the more slowly the bullet transits the animal, the more damage it will do"

This comment and a lot of other stuff posted here is simply as irrelevant as Voodoo. In fact the basic premise is voodoo.

The .458 Winchester is probably the MOST popular bolt rifle cartridge with people who live and hunt in Africa, for dangerous game at least. Why? Because if you hit an animal in the front half of the chest with a 500 grain bullet at 2100 fps, it dies. There are jillions of .458s in Africa and no reason not to use them.

The .458 Lott is popular mostly with people who have never hunted with big bores, sign up for an African safari, buy a Lott based on heresay, shoot if about 5 or 10 times, nurse their bruised shoulder, then wound the game and get the PH to finish it off.

There isn't a dime's worth of difference in terms of effect on game between the two cartridges.

The Lott was invented (according to Lott himself) to get 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet. No more is needed for elephant or buffalo. Since that's easy to do with the .458 Winchester, at least with today's powder, I can't see any purpose for the Lott.

The .458 Winchester usually can be had in a lighter weight rifle to boot. Since most of the hunting for which it is appropriate consists of carrying the rifle all day, that's important. I have hunted buffalo for six days straight. Only the last 10 minutes involved any shooting.

[tim416]

Indy I will come out of the clouds just to let you know, the .458 Winchester Magnum is enough gun, especially now days with the bullet and powder choices. Yes, all the bad HIPE came about when Winchester powder and loadings caused problems for many back in those days of glory.

I have both the model 70 pre-64 action, in .458 Winchester magnum with a 22 inch barrel and a .458-LOTT with a 24 inch barrel. Sure the LOTT hits harder but it is more than is needed and it will get your friggin attention in a big hurry, when that recoil comes back to slap your jaw and upper torso.

Now make no mistake, a good soft point bullet in the chamber of a .458 Winchester Magnum on on thin or medium skinned animals or a "solid" for dangerous game and your good to go, weather it is a push fed or controlled round fed magazine. Finn Aagaarad didn't have any trouble downing big African dangerous game with his push fed .458-Winchester Magnum, dangerous or otherwise.

It also makes one heck of a rifle to pack along on thick brush hunts for those wild boar. I use both 350 grain and 450 grain bullets in my 22 inch short barrel and it stops BIG HOGS (350 plus lbs) in their tracks with very little if any meat damage. It pulls the rug right out from underneath any bear and hits them like the "hammer of Thor".

I have to agree with the above statement. I have spent time in camp with Barry Duckworth who worked for Zimbabwe Parks and wildlife for years and successfully used the .458 win mag. on several hundred elephant and Cape buff. With the new powders and quality bullets today it has made up for any shortcomings it was accused of having previously.

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Bushman,
The 458 Win Mag has a problem with the case capacity. It just does not take enough powder to drive those heavy bullets at respectable velocities. I have heard of numerous PH's that has had their 458 WM converted to the 450 Rigby and has not looked back since.

Al the Best,
Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris
http://www.huntsafaris.co.za

[TERMINATOR]

Why isn't it more popular??? Simple. Because it is more gun than anyone could possiibly need for anything in North America. The coastal Alaskan Brown Bear is the only thing that even comes close to needing something like the .458 Win and it is still killed just as stone dead with a .375 H&H or .338 Win Mag for less recoil. Add in the fact that both provide flatter trajectories than the .458 making them better for the big "deer" like Elk and Moose.

So bottom line...since 99.9% of hunters in North America have never and/or will never go to Africa to shoot something that wants to kill them they don't need anything that big.

And the PH's all want big bore double rifles so they are not buying many Win 70's

I can't see why I will ever need anything bigger than my .375 H&H, especially given the bullets/ammo available now days.

[swamp]

Does anyone have any actual chrono results shooting some recently made premium factory 458 win mag ammo using 500 grain bullets out of a 24" bbl from a win model 70 Safari Express Rifle?

[GF.]

Hmmmm... looks as though I've been away from this one for a while, but when I saw this gem, I just couldn't let it go uncontested...


"His penetration tests showed conclusively that at the time of that book the cartridge wasn't working as it should have even when compared to ballistically identical loads according to manufacturer in the tests. 460 Short A Square versus the 458 Win using identical 500 gr bullets and both at 2400 fps. The A Square bullet gave penetration averaging 1250 while the Win gave an average of around 950 mms."

The key bit of information here being "using identical 500 gr bullets and both at 2400 fps"

HOOO. HAH.

If ANYONE can get >30% difference in penetration using identical bullets at the same velocity, the ONLY things he has 'proven' are that 1) he used an inexcusably inconsistent testing medium - and 2) can only be judged as wholly incompetent as a researcher.

Not "IMO" and no need whatsoever for false humility; if identical bullets at the same velocity give two different results, then either the laws of physics have been momentarily suspended, or all is not as it appears. Bad quality control on the bullets, bad quality control on the medium, or the "experimenter" is flat out lying his arse off....


So… back to the original question… Why isn’t the Winnie more popular? It got bad press at the outset, and rifle buyers are either too gullible or too superstitious to allow a silly little thing like, oh, 30-40-50 years of actual science change their opinion, which was, of course, based on the opinion of some famous writer who did some limited testing when the reader was still in short pants.

Besides, when most guys go to buy a Big Rifle, they don’t go looking for one that is merely Big Enough; they want The Biggest, The Baddest, The Mostest Terrifying Rifle that they can possibly, conceivably afford. Reality has Absolutely Nothing At All to do with it.

[swamp]

Seriously can anyone come up with chrono results? My feeling is that the newer 458 WM ammo is more than adequate...

[Hi Ball]

Duggaboy-1 is spot one with his post! I have 2 of those model 70 Winchesters, one a 22 inch barrel and the other a 24 inch barrel rechambered for the LOTT. As I try to remember the loads I had put on the old PC before it crashed, I can say the LOTT was at least a 150 fps fast then the .458 Win mag. Now the way I did my .458-Win mag was just like DuggaBoy-1 stated. I used 450 grain bullets in the .458 Win mag and then tried the same bullets in the LOTT. Now using RL-12 powder I got 2130 fps from the .458-Win mag. The LOTT came in at 2335 feet per second. Some 200 feet per second faster and I certainly do recoil getting my upper body jolted. It both guns were the same in barrel length, I figure there would be around : .458-LOTT = 2350 fps and the .450 Win Mag = 2180 fps. The difference in velocity between the two calibers is something close to 170 feet per second. The .458 Win mag is certainly no slacker at this 2180-fps velocity! This is very close to 4900 pounds of kenetic energy at the muzzle. The .458-LOTT develops some 5700 pounds of kinetic energy at the muzzle.

[Hi Ball]

Now in my reloading book of "Any Shot You Want" by A-Squared, it shows on page 258 that the .458 Win mag loaded with a 500 grain bullet reached a velocity of 2040 feet per second! Energy was 4620 pounds
The .458 Win mag using a .465 grain bullet, did in fact reach a velocity of 2220 feet per second when A-Square and company did this testing. Now both caliber's were in 26 inch barrel lengths.
The muzzle energy was 5088 fps.

[Indy]

Perhaps the .458 Winchester has lost more popularity to the .416s than it has to the .458 Lott. There seems to be a belief that you can't use a .458 (Winchester or Lott) on plains game but you can use a .416 on plains game, while a .416 loses little or no effectiveness on bigger game.

To the extent that this is true, I suspect the reason is that the .458s just kick too much for accurate shooting. If that's true, a .375 might be even better for dangerous game.

[StringJumper]

I dunno, but having neither I have always wondered why a 45/70 sending a 400 grain bullet downstream @2,000 FPS is considered to be hell on wheels while a .458 sending a 500 grain at 2,100 FPS is considered to be a failure.

[swamp]

String Jumper, probably the 458 Win Mag will do anything the 458 Lott will do.... especially with today's propellants... choosing the right bullet is probably key...