What's inside the mind of a trespasser?

[Rembrandt]

Each year I loose a portion of hunting enjoyment by getting worked up over people who trespass on our land. Each year I vow to take it in stride and remain calm knowing it's as predictable as snow in winter....and each year I boil over more.

I submit that most trespassers think of themselves as law abiding hunters....not law beakers. Just as most speeding motorists don't think a few miles over the limit is a big deal. Both the speeding motorist and the trespassing hunter are taking a calculated risk that they'll be caught....odds are they will not which emboldens them to repeat the offense more frequently. (from Rembrandt, amateur psychiatrist)

We've gone to a number of extremes to limit the practice....hidden cameras, signage, chains & locks on all gates. Guess if law enforcement doesn't do it's job the trespass laws are nothing more than "scoff laws". What's your thoughts?

[venado]

I suppose that it revolves around "the grass is greener" and "they don't deserve what they have" syndromes. It has always been interesting to me to see how tresspassing is so very different in different parts of Texas. It isn't so uncommon in east TX and is rather uncommon in south TX.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Trespassers are taking genuine risks in South Texas. The wardens I know take a very dim view of it and a great many landowners WILL file charges. The consequences are much greater than anything I would be willing to risk for a shot at any deer. In recent years I have sen much less of it though. I guess the worst offenders are the hog hunters. Dogs don't understand fences and neither do hogs. The hog hunters view fences as a momentary obstacle if they view them at all. If the don't it's called a sudden stop. You can usually hear the dogs and hogs hit the wire though and it gives you some warning. If it were not for the fact that the hog hunters kill lots of hogs landowners would probably make a bigger fuss about it. The hog killin is usually viewed as a plus.

It takes some stones to sneak onto someone's property and shoot a deer though. There is no real guarantee that someone is not going to take a potshot at you, Just to scare you, you know? I've always made it a point to ride my fences and know my neighbors. That cuts the problem way down.

Alan

[Sabre]

What's inside the mind of those who get so bent about it ? I had an SUV with 3 strangers park right next to my mailbox { directly across the road from my house and 40 yards from my front porch} for the first three days of the season last year. I didn't see where they went the first morning because I was out hunting myself but it was there when I came home at noon and didn't leave till after dark. Due to the fact that I was down with the flu, I didn't hunt the second and third day's so I was here to watch them pull up, park and walk across my side yard and into my woods both days. They weren't hurting anything so I left them alone. On the third day I saw them come out of the woods so I went out to have a chat and see if they'd been having any luck. Found out they're from Long Island and they've been hunting my neighbors land {borders on the back side of mine} for years {with permission}. They had permission from the previous owner to cross my land and were unaware that I'd bought the place two years ago. I told them it was no problem and they were welcome to keep on doing what they'd been doing so long as they didn't block my mailbox.

[Rembrandt]

What's inside the mind of those who get so bent about it ?

I'll try to answer that....

Didn't buy the place for the enjoyment of the masses to come and go as they please. Got it for our family members to enjoy hunting...annoying to have someone who's invested nothing take what they want. Sorta like breaking into someones home and helping themselves....it's called theft.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I'll try to answer that....

Didn't buy the place for the enjoyment of the masses to come and go as they please. Got it for our family members to enjoy hunting...annoying to have someone who's invested nothing take what they want. Sorta like breaking into someones home and helping themselves....it's called theft.


Blunt and True.

Alan

[Sabre]

I'll try to answer that....

Didn't buy the place for the enjoyment of the masses to come and go as they please. Got it for our family members to enjoy hunting...annoying to have someone who's invested nothing take what they want. Sorta like breaking into someones home and helping themselves....it's called theft.

I never felt like that at all. Neither did my dad, uncle or granfather, as they always let anybody and everybody hunt to their hearts content. We all hunted on somebody else's land half the time anyway and I always felt if you weren't going to let anybody hunt on yours, you had no business hunting on anybody else's. As a matter of fact, when those Long Island folks were crossing/hunting my land last season I WAS off hunting on somebody else's ! Hunting would be so BOOOORING if I could only hunt on mine or my family land all of the time I'd give it up and take up golf !

[Orion]

I think people should always ask first and it wouldn't hurt to offer a favor or offer help.
I don't want someone hunting near my house or horse pasture so it's posted. I'd really like to know a persons ethics and firearm safety behavior before I say yes. That is not too much to ask.

[Rembrandt]

Sabre, your mutual agreement with your neighbors is fine.....doesn't really fall into the definition of trespassing. Have no desire to hunt our neighbors....everything we want is within our fence lines.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Sabre, if you have arrangements with your neighbors and others that's fantastic and is not necessarily trespassing. I believe that the trespassing being considered is of more a clandestine nature. I have on numerous occasions in the past been scoping deer and in some cases in the act of squeezing the trigger when suddenly and without warning a cow will poke it head out in the lane of fire. It could just as easily been a trespasser. If someone is on my property or I am on theirs without their knowledge or consent then we don't know where each other are or if each other are there. That is not a safe situation regardless of the intent of either party. I have heard of other places in the Northeast where hunters move around freely without regard to property lines. There are those who like it and those who don't. I probably wouldn't.

Wasn't that long ago that that Cambodian Fella (trespasser) ran down and shot all those hunters. Wonder what was going on in his mind?

When I had hunters, my instructions to them was to NEVER confront a trespasser. That was my job. They didn't like it but I don't like dead people on my place whether they deserve it or not. In the instances when they would see one of some, I would simply follow them to the fence and get the law involved. Nothing stops people from screwing with you faster than having the SO show up at your house every time you look crosseyed at the fence. After a while you break the habit.

Alan

[Sabre]

Sabre, if you have arrangements with your neighbors and others that's fantastic and is not necessarily trespassing. I believe that the trespassing being considered is of more a clandestine nature. I have on numerous occasions in the past been scoping deer and in some cases in the act of squeezing the trigger when suddenly and without warning a cow will poke it head out in the lane of fire. It could just as easily been a trespasser. If someone is on my property or I am on theirs without their knowledge or consent then we don't know where each other are or if each other are there. That is not a safe situation regardless of the intent of either party. I have heard of other places in the Northeast where hunters move around freely without regard to property lines. There are those who like it and those who don't. I probably wouldn't.

Wasn't that long ago that that Cambodian Fella (trespasser) ran down and shot all those hunters. Wonder what was going on in his mind?

When I had hunters, my instructions to them was to NEVER confront a trespasser. That was my job. They didn't like it but I don't like dead people on my place whether they deserve it or not. In the instances when they would see one of some, I would simply follow them to the fence and get the law involved. Nothing stops people from screwing with you faster than having the SO show up at your house every time you look crosseyed at the fence. After a while you break the habit.

Alan

It's obvious that you southerner's have been so anal about knowing who is on your land and where they are at every minute that you've freaked yourselves into believing it's the only safe way to hunt. Nothing could be further from the truth. We have several MILLION acres of state land here and much of it gets hunted HARD during deer season. On state land you NEVER know who is out there, how many there are or where they're at, yet we have one of the best safety record's {fewest accidental shootings} of any state in the nation.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Well, I don't know much about the anal stuff you're talking about but we do value our property rights, and we haven't had ANY accidental shootings or hunting accidents on our property 80 years. It's already been said that if that's the arrangement you have, and it suits you, great, more power to you and God Speed. We have a different arrangement than you, we don't allow unrestricted, non-consensual use of our properties for any purposes. It's not just a Southern thing, I'll bet it happens in NY State too.

It is somewhat disconcerting though to freely acknowledge another person's right to do as they please in their own version of "Rome" and to do as they do there and yet have to suffer derisive remarks in reference to rectal anatomy regarding our own "Rome" and as we do here. It's not that we require approval but mutual acknowledgment is just .......... Good manners. Now, I suppose I could go on from there about the lack of "Good Manners" that I found in my youthful travels through the Northeast and in particular New York State but making derogatory remarks a in a general sense would not be considered ............ Good manners.

I think I did pretty good. I didn't say "Damn Yankee" one single time!;)

Alan

[Sabre]

Well, I don't know much about the anal stuff you're talking about but we do value our property rights, and we haven't had ANY accidental shootings or hunting accidents on our property 80 years. It's already been said that if that's the arrangement you have, and it suits you, great, more power to you and God Speed. We have a different arrangement than you, we don't allow unrestricted, non-consensual use of our properties for any purposes. It's not just a Southern thing, I'll bet it happens in NY State too.

It is somewhat disconcerting though to freely acknowledge another person's right to do as they please in their own version of "Rome" and to do as they do there and yet have to suffer derisive remarks in reference to rectal anatomy regarding our own "Rome" and as we do here. It's not that we require approval but mutual acknowledgment is just .......... Good manners. Now, I suppose I could go on from there about the lack of "Good Manners" that I found in my youthful travels through the Northeast and in particular New York State but making derogatory remarks a in a general sense would not be considered ............ Good manners.

I think I did pretty good. I didn't say "Damn Yankee" one single time!;)

Alan

I guess you read more into that post than was really there Alan. Damned uppity Reb's anyway:D I'm just darn glad I don't have any reason to tresspass myself. At last count I have unrestricted permission to hunt on somewhere around 6000 acres of private land within 20 miles of my home, including 700 acres within walking distance {neigbors lands bordering mine to the North,East and West} and 80,000 acres of state land within 25 miles, 2000 of which is also just a short walk from my door. Go ahead with your Southern "property rights" and enjoy hunting on your own little piece of ground all the time forever. I want no part of that and will continue to enjoy hunting all over the place to my hearts content. I'll also continue to not give a damn who's on my or my families lands because I'll probably be hunting elsewhere anyway.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I guess you read more into that post than was really there Alan.


Could be, I read a lot! It was a fella North of the Mason/Dixon line that coined the phrase "Good fences make good neighbors". Possibly he was talking about something else.

We're one day closer to hunting season anyway and whether we hunt on 15 acres or 150.000 it'll all be good. Good hunting!

Alan

[dave-t.]

I'm just sitting here thinking about how different the hunting industry would be today, if nation wide we all were following Sabre's line of thinking.

How much or little would be spent on feed corn, food plots, minerals, etc. if Joe Neighbor was going to wander over and make his best effort to hunt that location himself. I'd bet not much money/effort would be layed out for those types of things, and it is getting to where that would be a big change in the way a lot of areas are hunted or laid out.

The bad side would be if a guy shot a real dandy somewhere. Kiss that spot good bye.

[GF.]

Not exactly....

Never forget that the animals do not belong to the landowner, no matter how many dollars or gallons of sweat he has poured into the property to make it a better place to hunt.

Unfortunately, there are those who will use point that to justify their trespassing (to themselves, at least).

I come from CO. Out there, private land is PRIVATE. Landowners aren't required to post their land in any way, and in some cases they don't even have a fenceline. None required. No matter - the hunter is responsible for knowing where he is at all times, knowing what land is public or private, and keeping the hell out of any private land unless he has express permission to be there. And those laws may go all the way back to the days of cattle rustlin' and claim jumpin'.

So you won't ever see me trespassing. Period.

But not all states are as protective as CO. Up in MN, the public has (or at least used to have) free access to any private land unless it was posted at regular, specified intervals of 'X' yards or less.

Under those circumstances, I guess it would depend. Personally, I wouldn't ever want somebody I've never even met coming across my property while in possession of hunting implements, just on principle, but especially not right close to the house & yard. My folks have a spot on a river, and we don't much care for sitting on the couch and seeing somebody stroll through the back yard so he can fish right there behind the house. It's a proximity/privacy thing. Neighbors have the OK. For anybody else, it would be a dandy cover for casing the joint, and how are you ever gonna know until you've been hit?

That and it drives the dog batshat. :D

Anyway, I won't set foot on private property without an invite because it's just not Polite where I come from. I suppose if I were up in Maine and I knew that the landowner was a big paper or timber company and that local customs permit, then I might do as the locals do. But if you can figure out just by looking that this land belongs to that house over there?

Go and say hello first.

[GF.]

I'm just sitting here thinking about how different the hunting industry would be today, if nation wide we all were following Sabre's line of thinking.

I'd bet our whitetail overpopulation problem would disappear in a heartbeat :D

Sabre's got access to all the land a guy could ever wish for, so why wouldn't he be of a mind to share it? It's a prosperity mentality.

Other people covet big antlers and know that they can't expect to get them on publicly-hunted land without putting in an awful lot of serious effort and getting good & lucky besides, so they buy and post and plow and plant and build themselves a sweet little deer farm, and it's MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE!!!

And other people like me find ourselves locked out of any place to hunt save a few thoroughly-hammered public acres, and wonder what's wrong with this picture?

Funny thing - I'd bet that people who allow other folks to hunt their property just for the asking have far fewer trespassers and far fewer littering, crop damage, or open-gate incidents than those who try to keep everybody else out.

I would never advocate Bad Manners; I agree with Alan on every point he made, really. But especially when folks fence in a public resource like deer, the guys outside the fence aren't gonna like it.

[purple heart]

I hunt on 300 acres of private posted property and have for years.
The reason I have access to hunt this property and others don't is
because I worked for it. I got to know the land owners and when they
allowed me to hunt I showed my appreciation by doing work around the
place, keeping in touch throughout the year and bringing them things
like fresh fish Id caught and cleaned. They were white collar and didn't have
time to do some of the things that needed doing so I helped out. Anybody
that hunted with me also had to help out.

Every years we find hunters that have permission to hunt neighboring
properties have wandered past the posted signs. Supposedly they didn't
see the signs. The land also has great views, lots of trails, and farm fields.
Consequently we get people walking dogs, riding horses, jogging, taking
pictures, ect. This is with posted signs up. Apparently these people
think the "NO TRESSPASSING" signs are just for hunting and not for them.
These people have never even offered to help out or even ask permission.

If it wasn't for the posters the property would be so overrun with people
that the landowners " TAX PAYERS" wouldn't be able to use and enjoy their
own property.

Because there are fields that the deer feed in and can be see from the
road it would be VERY unsafe to hunt this property because there would
be so many people hunting it.

In my opinion tresspassers are people that don't want to work for
something. They want all the benefits while someone else pays the bill.

[dave-t.]

GF- I was sitting here thinking about it because it is not the tradition around here. You ask permission, or you are boardering on not only being rude, but possibly a much more serious confrontation.

There are situations where among friends fences don't mean much. But, by and large if you aren't in tight with the owner of the property, permission and some details need to be worked out first.

[LampLighter]

Wasn't that long ago that that Cambodian Fella (trespasser) ran down and shot all those hunters. Wonder what was going on in his mind?




Before yall go haywire, read the next text s--l--o--w--l--y. Don't jump to conclusions.


Do you know all of the details of that case ? NOT JUSTIFIBILE, which is why he is in the hoosegow now, but some of the details I read said they chased him down with 4 wheelers and called him a gook several times. Some details suggested evidence that the lease members came in pack like, having been called via 2 way walkie talkie , and may have brandished longarms. Again, not suggesting a self defense case, but definitely a case of " Aggressor Cannot claim self defense. " They shot their mouth off and are now dead.

Here is a TRUE story witnessed by me. When I was a Wildlife Agent, December 2000 I believe I was called to a hunting accident. Upon arrival, there was one fellow dead on the ground, blood everywhere, and Sheriff's Office personnel crime scene on site. What had transpired was not an accident. It was a land dispute that we knew was long ongoing. It involved another case of arson also. Cannot get too much into details. Still may be a civil case pending. Anyway, the shooter, was found to be on his own land verified by detectives with GPS coordinates and plat maps at the court conveyance room. The 2 brothers leased alot of land all around the area, but not the shooter's. The shooter was a witness in an arson case. Cannot say who the alledged arsonists were. ( don't take rocket scientist). Anyway, we knew the shooter was receiving threats , and we directed him to Sheriff's Office Personnel. Don't know if he followed up with it. We offered to call a unit to the area the day he told us about the threats. He claimed he knew a Capt. and would report it himself. Anyway- fastforward to the shooting day. According to Sheriff personnel, the shooter was in a box stand armed with a Mini 14 that morning. Supposably, the 2 bros approached with a boat, got out, and started yelling at the individual . who had seen them approach and had by then climbed down from the box stand. They alledgedly approached the shooter and began working actions on long arms and stated that they were going to end this long standing land dispute once and for all. In fear for his life, the shooter opened fire with the Mini 14 killing one and severely wounding the other. He then alledgely removed their firearms and summoned help for them and reported the incident. The other bro was saved by emergency operation. From what I gathered, the shooter was found to be justified . I heard he was messed up psychologically though.

Not that long after- the following fall I believe, I almost- almost had the other brother ( the one who survived) with taking deer illegal hours. We missed him picking up at the boat landing, but caught up to him an hour later WITH the deer. I was not trained in TIME-Of Death procedures. This is a method involving electrical impulses in muscle and thermometer tasks. I called for one of the new kids who were trained. He dropped his thermometer, took forever to get there, and we just could not bring a case like that to court. I quit not long after that.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

At the risk of getting off into an old argument, the deer are not a public resource. In Texas: The hunting seasons and the bag limits are set by the Wildlife Dept. based, I suppose, on biological data, ehem..... The property is owned by individuals, companies, corps. and the state. Even the state controls access for hunting for deer on State lands in Texas. I don't know about Nat. Forest land but you can't just show up and walk into a WMA and start hunting, and you can't do that on private land. The deer don't "belong" to anyone, but hunting is controlled by the Wildlife Dept. and access to hunting is controlled by the landowner, whoever that may be. Living in the State and even buying a hunting license does not entitle anyone to a deer. They may only be taken in a manner prescribed by law and that includes landowner consent.

Alan

[Rembrandt]

....Damned uppity Reb's anyway.....Go ahead with your Southern "property rights"......I want no part of that and will continue to enjoy hunting all over the place to my hearts content.


"Property rights" were never a regional thing....but if you insist, it probably means the Mason-Dixon line just got moved to the Canadian border...seeing that I live quite a ways North of the old line.

Your opinion concerning what you think about this topic pretty much answers my question concerning "what's inside the mind of a .........".

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

" Aggressor Cannot claim self defense. " They shot their mouth off and are now dead.


One's mouth is not considered a deadly weapon, but a firearm is. Cases like this are precisely why I did not like for my hunters to approach trespassers. It is why I do not approach and confront trespassers. I follow them, see where they go and call the law. I haven't had to do this in a long time and not very many times then. On other occasions I simply talked to my neighbors and the problems stopped. We did have some guys who came in a vehicle and tore up a bunch of stuff and tried to crash the gate on the way out. They went to jail.

Lamplighter is right (can't believe I typed that) in regards to armed trespassers. It is a tricky business dealing with armed lawbreakers. Better to let those trained and accustomed to dealing with them do it. Just sign the paper work after that. I have found that people who are used to breaking laws are usually doing other things as well and having the cops show up at their house asking about why they were trespassing isn't very fun for them.

Alan

[LE]

Iowa has a very simple law anyone can understand. It states that all private lands require permisson to enter and without that permission it is considered trespassing. I wholly agree with it. Common courtesy should given in any state by asking permisson. I don't see why it appears to be a problem for some people to ask such a simple question.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Asking the question may not be the problem. Abiding by the answer could be though.

Alan

[GF.]

I was sitting here thinking about it because it is not the tradition around here. You ask permission, or you are boardering on not only being rude, but possibly a much more serious confrontation.

There are situations where among friends fences don't mean much. But, by and large if you aren't in tight with the owner of the property, permission and some details need to be worked out first.

That's how I was brought up, too - just backed by the full force of the law, which ain't a bad deal for anybody as long as everybody is keeping himself honest.


I'm going to partially disagree with Alan; yes, the landowner should have full control (via consent) over who gets to do exactly what (speaking only of legal activities, of course!) on the landowner's property - otherwise, it's not really his.

But what do you mean by 'nobody owns the deer'? If 'nobody' does, then 'everybody' must! And that, fellas, is what's on the minds of us commoners when we see that a few landowners have locked up the access to areas which hold large numbers of animals; it's the sanctuary effect. So when we're sitting on some seemingly empty public land and we can see onto unhuntable private property where the animals are milling around like herefords, it's pretty hard to swallow.

Doesn't excuse trespassing or boorish behavior, but the 'haves' can't very well act surprised that we 'have-nots' would somehow be unhappy with the situation. And to be honest, sometimes the guys with the land are less than honorable about it. I recall years back when some Elk hunters in CO called a Denver TV station, and the cameras were able to tape hired hands from a big ranch who were patrolling the edges of the property. Not to keep trespassers out, but rather to keep the Elk herds in. Every time the herd moved towards a boundary, the hands would haul ass over there and haze the Elk back into the middle of the property, leaving a lot of pissed-off public land hunters looking down on that operation with a degree of contempt not commonly seen.

So if you have troubles, call the appropriate authorities, certainly. I think Alan has the wisest approach possible. But you might also throw somebody a bone. Invite some of the locals - or especially their kids -out for a doe hunt or to shoot a few of those so-called 'management' bucks. Once people figure out that at least somebody is getting to share the wealth a little, maybe they'll realize that that grass isn't all that spectacularly green over there, anyway.

I think that's what keeps Sabre and hs neighbors happy. They know that the hunting isn't all that amazing anywhere in their area, and since they all have access to quite a bit of it, there's just not that much to be so all-fired possessive about. There's plenty to go around, and everybody's willing to share what they've got. The Texas system (not to blame it all on you guys, since it happens all over) is more like a hungry man watching a rich man feed the dog a steak with one hand and chase the hungry man away from his trash cans with the other. And in cases where the owners are using ag damage permits to cull deer year round, you can pretty much triple the resentment.

JMO, no private landowner should be issued damage control permits unless he can document that he has made the property available to a reasonable amount of no-fee public hunting - at least not on territorial deer like whitetails. Mulies and Elk can migrate hundreds of miles, so that's a whole different thing, but even then, that's what late-season cow tags are for...

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

No one owns the deer. They are wild animals. They come and go across property lines at will and as they may. I don't own them until I take possession of them by legal means. While they are alive they are not owned.

High fences. When the fence goes up it then becomes illegal for the property owner/manager to introduce any wild stock into the fenced area from outside the fence. Those deer on the inside are then owned by him and any offspring are his property as well. I don't know much about high fenced areas because I don't agree with them in principal but many a ranch has remained intact because of the money generated from hunting behind high fence.

As for wild animals, just because no one individual owns them doesn't mean that they are owned by everyone. I really would not want to put that issue to a vote because "everyone" is a lot of people and evidently not all of them agree with the way we feel about hunting.

Alan

[Sabre]

At the risk of getting off into an old argument, the deer are not a public resource. In Texas: The hunting seasons and the bag limits are set by the Wildlife Dept. based, I suppose, on biological data, ehem..... The property is owned by individuals, companies, corps. and the state. Even the state controls access for hunting for deer on State lands in Texas. I don't know about Nat. Forest land but you can't just show up and walk into a WMA and start hunting, and you can't do that on private land. The deer don't "belong" to anyone, but hunting is controlled by the Wildlife Dept. and access to hunting is controlled by the landowner, whoever that may be. Living in the State and even buying a hunting license does not entitle anyone to a deer. They may only be taken in a manner prescribed by law and that includes landowner consent.

Alan

Other than your oppressively hot summer weather, this is the biggest reason I'd never want to live in Texas. Here in NY you CAN just show up and hunt state land wherever and whenever you want {in season of course} and we have LOTS of it scattered all over the state.

[Bill Gunn]

Here in NY you CAN just show up and hunt state land wherever and whenever you want {in season of course} and we have LOTS of it scattered all over the state.

He's telling the truth, in NY there's literally millions of forested acres of 1000 to 4000 acre plots scattered all over the state where at any time of the year you can show up unannounced, and camp, hike, fish or hunt your hearts content at any time of the year the season is open.
There's not even anyone there watching them, and only a few smaller state park areas have any restrictions or free permits involved.
The Adirondack park itself is 6 million acres alone, with about 4 million acres hunt-able.
There is no reason not to hunt for lack of an area to hunt in NY (But the taxes, and polititions suck big time).

My wife and I shot these 3 bucks and a doe on state land in NY one opener.
(all 4 shot with .44 mag. pistols)

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/36083780.jpg

And this one...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/189600867.jpg

and more than 50 others.

That's NOT to say that there aren't some guys out there that can't seem to keep their ass on the right side of a posted sign in NY.
It must be "The Grass is Greener" syndrome, and I wish they would jail them & fine them the cost of jailing, for a lesson.
On of my neighbors got mad enough to have a smart mouth arrested & fined.

[Sidekick]

I haven't had too much trouble but the few times I have had a confrontation I don't make a scene or argue with them. I just tell them straight up how it is and if they don't leave immediately I will make a phone call. I haven't had one come back yet.

[Altjaeger]

I don't know about Nat. Forest land but you can't just show up and walk into a WMA and start hunting, and you can't do that on private land.

Alan

Depends. The entire Sam Houston National Forest, and small portions of the Davy Crockett NF and the Angelina NF are also WMA's and are subject to additional restrictions. I am not sure of the Sabine NF. I know that hogs may not be hunted in the WMA inside the Davy Crockett outside of deer season because the game wardens were fearful of deer poaching. The others may have different restrictions or none at all.

The non-WMA portions of NFs are subject to the general regulations, but open throughout seasons. If there are no restriction such as hogs they are available at all times. There are two restrictions of which I am aware. No baiting may be used, to include hogs. The other is that any blind must be temporary and moved every 72 hours.

[GF.]

******Hi-Jack Alert!!!********

But seriously...

What's the scoop on bowhunitng all these little state parks I pass by and/or through every day going to work & back? Talking about Rockefeller, Tallman, and the others that are all right along the Hudson and close to NYC.

I keep thinking it'd be pretty schweeett to be able to stop off on my way home and tag one of the deer I've been patterning every day for the past 5 years :D

And back to the topic at hand...

Alan; I'm delighted to hear that you're no more fond of high fences than the rest of us peons who'll never hunt inside of one :D I guess my point on the 'ownership' of the wildlife is simply that no matter how you define who does 'own' the deer, I think we'd agree that no landowner has a right to confine them and take them over as a privately held asset.

JMO, though, if the only thing keeping a ranch afloat is trophy fees, that's just flat unsustainable, and those folks ought to consider an exit strategy - preferably one that doesn't involve cashing in by zoning for a mini-mall....

Personally, I figure that's what conservancy ought to be for; if someone can't afford to keep a ranch going, they'd do a real service to the land, the animals, and yes, even to those who would hunt them if they'd take the (considerable) write-off and open up the land to public hunting while protecting it from becoming so many more McMansions....

[Bill Gunn]

I really don't know about that area, I live about 350 driving miles from there.

Here's a site that has all the parks and what services are available in each park...

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/

You get anywheres near NYC and all the rules change (Thank God)

[Sabre]

GF, I don't know about all those downstate parks. It would be worth your while to look into it though, as most all the state parks up my way allow hunting and I'd be surprised if the downstate ones didn't. There is some good state land hunting to be had not too far North of you in Delaware, Chenango, Broome and Otsego counties though. If you could take a couple weekends during the season to come up and hunt you could pitch a tent or sleep in the back of a truck, SUV or camper {or pay for a motel room} and you aught to be able to get deer. Specifically, Bear spring mountain, Steam Mill state forest, Melondy hill state forest and Beals pond state forest in Delaware county are all open to hunting and allow free camping during deer season. Steam Mill {5200 acres} Melondy hill {5400 acres}and Beals pond {1100 acres} in particular have decent deer hunting and would only be a 2.5-3 hour drive for you. Beals pond is the better of the three because it runs right behind farm land and has a decent number of deer with relatively light hunting pressure. The black bear population is better in Steam Mill {but I've seen bear in all three} if that makes a difference to you but all have huntable deer populations and I've seen some darn nice bucks come out of all of them.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

GF, Hunting leases are a business in Texas, as they are in many other places. On land that will support for one year, one (1) cow/calf unit per 25 acres there are a great many ranchers who have supplemented ranching income for many years by providing hunting rights to paying customers. In the 60's my grandfather, although he had plenty enough places to hunt, leased 10,000 acres West of Freer (1 c/c unit/50 acres) for $300 per year. He and three other guys split that bill. They could fill their tags - two bucks each.

There were some decent deer on the place and they hung some bucks under the windmill. $300 was a lot for deer meat in those days and it was a good amount for the rancher too. People would be amazed at how the owner of 10,000 acres of South Texas Desert lived back then. They were literally "dirt poor". A round trip to the lease from Benavides cost $1.36 in gas and they ate cowboy stew. The rancher wished he lived high on the hog like those rich lease hunters.

Many ranchers entered the 20th century courtesy of the Humble Oil and Refining Co. too. The alternative to leasing for hunting and living off of ranching these days is to sell the property. When that happens it hardly EVER goes for the better. It is either parceled off into very small holdings and the deer are wiped out or someone with balls of gold buys it and fences it, and that's that. Hunting leases are a way of life here and hunters budget for it. It's just part of the process. 5 or 6 guys can get together and for about $2K each can get 12 - 15 hundred acres for their hunting. They are assured of exclusive rights to hunt the property and they will gladly make improvements if they know that they can build a place to shoot does and have a good chance at a nice buck through proper management.

In Texas I think that the smallest acreage that can be hunted with a firearm is 15 acres. There are a multitude of 15+ acre tracts that support casual hunters. Land prices in Texas run the full gauntlet of price from $12,000/acre in the Hill Country to $400/acre scrub. If you saw the Texas Hill Country you would know that Texans are truly Crazy! That's surface rights.

A rancher in South Texas who has 1000 acres of Brush can feasibly run 40 units, 2 of the units are bulls. 38 cows at a 80% calf crop (good year) is roughly 31 calves. 31 calves at $300 @ = $9,300 gross. Take from that water well upkeep, gasoline, time and fence labor. It's a damn wonder anybody wants to be in the ranching business in South Texas. Now factor in that some cityboys will pay another $10K - $12K, Shred the roads and build a permanent cabin so they can hunt deer (something the rancher has been doing out of the window of his pickup for his whole life to put some meat on the table). Now $19,300 may sound like a lot of money for a family to live on for a year (There is no tongue-in-cheek "smilie" to put here) but many ranchers do just that. To say that if a guy can't make it in the ranching business without resorting to charging for deer hunting, that he should just get out of the business, I think shows, perhaps, a lack of understanding of the way things are.

Wildlife conservancies, from what I've seen are just another place for State and Federal Bureaucracies to take root and put more of America under government control. Trusts run by banks work for the life of the trustees and then the bank makes money when they sell. Ultimately they want to sell. The only real way to insure that land is available for public use, either by the generosity of the landowner or through nominal fees for hunting rights is in private ownership by people who have a vested interest in keep the land for certain purposes. I have spent my whole life grooming my sons and nephews to be good stewards of the great blessing they have had bestowed on them, just as it was bestowed on me. They have an obligation to their family to keep the property intact and productive for the purposes that it serves.

There are those who would say that I am selfish, that I don't want to share my good fortune, that I have more than I need, that I should open my property, and indeed my wealth to the masses. I'm sorry but that sounds like something that I am against with every fiber of my being. Those that would say that do not and will not ever begin to know what I have done and what I have sacrificed to keep what has been given to me. I don't keep it for myself. I keep it for my children, my grandchildren and my great-Gradchildren, just as my great-grandfather and great-grandmother did for me. Stewardship is not an absentee activity.

High fences? Sometimes I wish I had when I was younger but it would have been a mistake from simply the standpoint that we did not have enough land to keep a viable gene pool going.

What I'd really like to have is a couple/three/four blowing oil/gas wells!

Alan

[Altjaeger]

Alan,

You have just said what I have known intuitively and wanted to say many times. Unfortunately I did not have the detailed knowledge and experience you do. Thanks for saying it so well.

[Sabre]

I don't think that 2000.00 per hunter per year stuff would fly here. Too much state land and not many hunters around here would be willing to pay it. Most would just hunt the state land and laugh at the farmers when they were ass deep in deer and couldn't grow a crop because of it. My uncle couldn't make a decent living dairy farming here either so did he start charging people to hunt ? No, he went and got a full time factory job in town to make ends meet. He got up at 3:30 am every day and did his milking and chores and then went to work from 7:00 am to 3:30 pm, came home and did his evening milking and chores, ate supper at 7:00pm, took a shower and went to bed. He did his field work on weekends and used his vacation time {from the factory job} to put up his hay. He kept this schedule for his entire adult life until he finally retired at the age of 76 so please excuse me if I don't shed too many tears for those poor Texas ranchers.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Texas Ranchers aren't interested in your tears (crocodile or otherwise), but if you come to Texas they'll take your money to hunt. Most have full time jobs outside of ranching, and incidentally no one HERE is complaining about the way we do things. Kinda keeps me wondering, not really.

Alan

[LampLighter]

Alan

really I can see how Tx is doing well in that field. It is important to look at deer hunting in 2 different aspects:

1) the trend. Want it big. Want it now. I have plenty money and I want it like those guys on the cable channel. Guides, ranches, electric Bad Boy buggies, etc. Shoot it, and that's it. Go back to the club house and the hands will clean it and package it.

2) those that seek the challenge one on one with no modifications, enticements, etc. This individual is likely a far better woodsman than a subject in catagory one. He/she is likely to be far more knowledgable in the outdoors including tree identification and some biology . He/she usually but not always hunts public land, and enjoys watching those beaver play while on stand.


NOW for the most important distinction :

1) probably has many trophys mounted- but he/she has to look at them and tell the story to whoever comes over of how he/she come about getting a shot on it. ( ranch, guides, corn feeders, no scouting or habit interpretation)

2) Long hard hunt. Took 3 years to figure out how that buck was giving the slip and to figure out where he scent checked those primary scrapes from. But, in the end, despite the pressure from the public on the lottery hunts, he/she got the shot and scored.


Now. I ask. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It all boils down to how YOU THE HUNTER feels when you sit back on that sofa ( no chee-wees) and look at the mounted buck. Can you feel good about yourself that you really did hunt and outsmart that buck ?

As far as direction of hunting and it's future. Catagory 2 above cannot sustain hunting's future. That is why they tried Youth hunts, That is why crossbows and in LA & MS, the Primitive weapon includes a cartridge fed single shot rifle. The refuge is letting lotto applic. kids go hunt the closed area behind the HQ bldg.. There are mega rack bucks in there. ALL THIS is an attempt to get more people into hunting.

IT IS NOT working fast enough. The other side of the coin is taking off big time. The commercialization of hunting and the ESPN type competition . Sad, but that is what your Tx. ranchers are involved in.

[Sabre]

Texas Ranchers aren't interested in your tears (crocodile or otherwise), but if you come to Texas they'll take your money to hunt.Alan If you come to NY you can hunt for free. {but you'll really have to hunt} So much for that fabled "southern hospitality". I guess you can have all of it you can afford to pay for.

[Sabre]

The other side of the coin is taking off big time. The commercialization of hunting and the ESPN type competition . Sad, but that is what your Tx. ranchers are involved in.

Yep, it started in Texas and has spread like a bad disease. I want no part of it and yes it is sad.

[Rembrandt]

If you come to NY you can hunt for free. {but you'll really have to hunt} So much for that fabled "southern hospitality". I guess you can have all of it you can afford to pay for.

Sorry, there's no free lunch in deer hunting....which gets back to the original topic of trespassers.

There are those that pay a fee to hunt on a ranch (rent to hunt) and there are those that paid in advance for the privilege to hunt years into the future,(by owning the property). Both sides have accepted the fact that quality hunting requires resources and they've ponied up to pay for it. The trespasser becomes the disgruntled party jealously wanting the experience yet refusing to pay for it. For these folks we offer public land....but sometimes that isn't enough and they get greedy looking across the fence at what seems to be greener pastures.

[LampLighter]

For these folks we offer public land..


I hope you are not concluding that ALL persons who hunt public land only are of the character you describe, and are unable to pay up for EASIER deer shooting.

Because I hunt public land only, and I could easily go to Chase tomorrow and get a cashier's check and be off to Pike County, Illinois. But I cannot sit there on my sofa and stare at a trophy buck on my wall, or have company over to ask about "how I got him" unless I actually had to apply woodsmanship skills and stragety to decipher sign and figure out a killing plan- and carry it out. No way would I hold my head up in pride having a guide tell me that a trophy 10 point will be along by 3pm and to take the shot from a particular shooting house. No way.

So, just keep in mind- some public land hunters could easily compete with you by opening the wallet but choose not to. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Sabre]

Sorry, there's no free lunch in deer hunting....which gets back to the original topic of trespassers.

There are those that pay a fee to hunt on a ranch (rent to hunt) and there are those that paid in advance for the privilege to hunt years into the future,(by owning the property). Both sides have accepted the fact that quality hunting requires resources and they've ponied up to pay for it. The trespasser becomes the disgruntled party jealously wanting the experience yet refusing to pay for it. For these folks we offer public land....but sometimes that isn't enough and they get greedy looking across the fence at what seems to be greener pastures.

I guess you're not only a pompous jackass but developmentally disabled too as your lack of reading comprehension skills so obviously points out. Alan McDaniel and several others on this board ABSOLUTELY COULD come to NY and hunt for free precisely BECAUSE I'D BE MORE THAN WILLING AND ABLE TO SET THEM UP ON PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND. You would likely be limited to public land, and rightfully so because of your poor, selfish, disgusting attitude. You deserve all the trespassers you have and many more besides.

[southtexas]

:confused: what the heck triggered that name-calling rant?

[Bill Gunn]

I think folks need to lighten up a bit.
My $98.00 RESIDENT NYS hunting and Fishing license for this year wasn't zackly "FREE".

[Sabre]

Sorry fella's but the little prick took a shot at me on page three {second post down} by insinuating I was a trespasser {even though I spelled my situation out very clearly} and I let it go but now he's back suggesting that I'm also a liar and/or don't know what I'm talking about. {"sorry but there's no free lunch in deer hunting"} I know Rembrandt's type well. We get butt heads like him up here from the city all the time. They come up here and deer hunt on our land for a few seasons {for free} and like it real well. The next thing you know they're back buying a farm down the road and bringing the attitude that {as GF said in a previous post} it's MINE, MINE, MINE, ALL MINE right along with them. Before the ink is dry on the deed they plaster the place with posted signs and lock out all the locals who so graciously allowed them to hunt on their land in the first place and then wonder why everyone in the neighborhood hates their guts, trespasses on their land, cuts their fences and rips down their posters. If they'd just learn to share and share alike their problems would disappear like a wisp of smoke in a blizzard.{GF was right about that too} In other words, they create their own problems and deserve whatever they get IMO.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

You can trespass, shoot deer, Hell, Shoot a Cow, and not get a major shafting like the one in store for you if you cut a fence in Texas. I suppose it's just a different situation.

The Hunting show type of operations are the exception to the rule. The vast majority of Texas' vastness is just plain ole farms and ranches with plain ole deer hunting taking place on them. Those High Dollar deer farms exist here but they exist everywhere.

Lampy, I think it's great that you paddle around in the swamps. I did the same thing growing up. All the woods and swamps around Morgan City, LA were just nearly all owned by the Singer Sewing Machine Co. and they didn't live there. They could care less if anyone hunted them. I wore hip boots almost as much as I wore tennis shoes and never saw a fence. The Atchafalaya Swamp is a grand and glorious experience. It is in my opinion "THE Primal Mist" and I feel perfectly safe and at home there. (as long as I have a can of Deep Woods Off) I know the feeling of being in something totally wild. There was also much of it that was posted and owned or leased by big hunting clubs such as the whole of Avery Island and they took a very dim view of trespassing. (Some of those Coonasses back in the swamps took a pretty dim view of what they considered "trespassing" too, by just being in the vicinity of their camp).

Now, I propose that if everyone respected everyone else's space in the woods and did not encroach on areas that were being actively hunted by someone else there would indeed be no problem. Everyone would just hunt and be happy. There would still be 6,000,000 Bison traveling the fenceless prairie from Alberta to Texas and life would be good. We all know that that is not the case and even the Noble Savage killed his red brethren over hunting grounds.

Since the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence I will fall back to my earlier quote "Good fences make good neighbors". It is the task of each person to green up his own side of the fence rather than hopping the fence or being content with nomadic hunting.

Sabre, first off, Thanks for the invite. Maybe someday, and I'll try and return the favor. I really don't know how anyone of average physical condition actively hunts much over 500 acres in a year and that would be hoofin it for much of the time. When I am still hunting I may not cover 400 yards in a morning and that is moving a lot. Most often it is much less than that. Much of the way I hunt is centered around not allowing the meat to spoil so hiking out an hour is out of the question. Most all of our deer are killed in a road or sendero and can be loaded into a truck from the place they dropped. We get them back to camp and skinned and cooled as quickly as possible. I think the temp dropped below freezing twice last year and I wasn't hunting on either of those days. Most days it's around 60-75 and 45 at night.

Most of our trespassers are not looking for meat anyway. If they were it wouldn't be so bad but they just want the head and horns and they'll take it with chain saw. The cut is right behind the front legs and take off the front legs right below the body. It's got a little weight but not like the whole deer. Phone a friend to meet you at the hole in the fence and you're on your way. I guess if we weren't taking such an interest in growing such nice bucks we wouldn't have that problem right? That'll teach us.

For the horn poacher/trespasser you'll find the back half of the deer. For the meat poacher/trespasser you find usually a doe's head and the rib cage and guts.

Alan

[Altjaeger]

Theres another old saying, "When in Rome do as the Roman's do". Nothing irritates small town and county folk more that people who flee the city then complain because things are different than the city and set about remaking what they fled. Not just Texas, but through out the southeast United States private land is sacrosanct. Trespassing to poach is a felony here and perhaps in other southern states. Why? Because that is what works for the people of those states.

Just as you Sabre say people who bring that southeast attitude find themselves frozen out there because it bucks community norms. The strict enforcement legally and socially of property rights down here is the community norm. We would not do well coming up there trying to change your community and I promise you would suffer here if you tried. :)

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Here is another reason most of our deer are shot in the road.

Alan

[LampLighter]

Lampy, I think it's great that you paddle around in the swamps. I did the same thing growing up. All the woods and swamps around Morgan City, LA were just nearly all owned by the Singer Sewing Machine Co. and they didn't live there. They could care less if anyone hunted them. I wore hip boots almost as much as I wore tennis shoes and never saw a fence. The Atchafalaya Swamp is a grand and glorious experience. It is in my opinion "THE Primal Mist" and I feel perfectly safe and at home there. (as long as I have a can of Deep Woods Off) I know the feeling of being in something totally wild. There was also much of it that was posted and owned or leased by big hunting clubs such as the whole of Avery Island and they took a very dim view of trespassing. (Some of those Coonasses back in the swamps took a pretty dim view of what they considered "trespassing" too, by just being in the vicinity of their camp).



Alan. I told you about 6 months ago that I am absolutely no where near those swampy Southern areas you keep referring back to. Man I'm right next to Arkansas. You seem to have some instinct about Sth. La. Maybe you watched Southern Comfort too much. :D


I don't have any interest in Texas, and do not know how things are over there. But I tell you this. In my circle of people I associate with, mostly Mississipians and Nth. La rednecks, when we are looking over a picture of a deer, the deer itself, or listening to a story from the hunter, and it eventually rolls around to, " wow! where'd you kill it ?" When the guy says Texas, you can see the let down on facial expressions. " Oh " It's like a let down. Like , it really didn't take any skills to get it. Usually the conversation stops there. -------- That's just a true reflection from me, a neutral person, about what is really thought about deer killed in Texas. One guy, really a naive, friendly fellow, once asked me honestly and seriously if deer killed in Texas were allowed in the Boone & Crocket books. Honestly ! Yall just have that reputation.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Well, we used to have a different kind of reputation to deal with when we showed up in Texas from LA. "OH NO, now the coonasses are going to shoot the place up!"

Lampy I know where you are. Swamps have a place with me and it has nothing to do with TV or the movies. I was just reminiscing about my childhood. I've hunted in Ruston and in Epps. #1 wife's grandparents were from Epps.

Several years ago I started making plans to go back sown there with my boat and go to all the places I used to hunt and fish. I wanted to take my boys with me and show them my memories. One time after a short diversion off the highway to look at some of the places close to the road I found that they weren't there anymore, or at least not like I remembered. They had come along and built a Toxic Waste Disposal plant right in the middle of one of my favorite squirrel hunting swamps. I figured the rest of the places were probably changed too and I'd probably by trespassing, so I decided just to let them live in my memories the way they were 40 years ago. Every time I see a picture of boats and water like you posted or like nc posts every now and then I get nostalgic. I can even travel back in my mind while floating down the Frio looking at the cypress trees there. Now that's a stretch to get to a swamp from the Frio, although the Atascosa river bottoms below Pleasanton sure do get swampy and they got some swamp creatures in there too!

Anyway, thanks for the diversion.

Alan

[LampLighter]

I know what you mean. Alot has changed since the 80's. I talk sometimes with ol timers who knew what it was like back then. I remincise alot about the 80's too. But I remincise about the good times with a different kind of wildlife :D . Ah the days of mullet haircuts, dance clubs, and Sunday night street races.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I reminisce about the late 60's and early 70's. By the time the 80's rolled around I was not only "an adult" but I was starting to act like one too. I hate it when that happens.

Alan

[southtexas]

oltimers? '80's??? dang, now yer really makin' me feel old!!:)

[LampLighter]

Graduated high school in 1982. pissed around for 4 years staying out all night at the clubs, and racing hot rods some nights. Building engines, putting in transmission shift kits, differential gears etc. Ok, enough of this. :(

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Graduated high school in 1982.

By the skin of your tooth no doubt!



pissed around for 4 years staying out all night at the clubs,

Research and development, is the proper term for this activity!



and racing hot rods some nights.

Learning all the backroads and running from the cops!



Building engines,

Blowing engines!



putting in transmission shift kits,

Blowing transmissions/clutches!



differential gears etc.

Stripping Rear Ends!




Ok, enough of this. :(

Those were the days!!!! Did you ever listen to "Oak Grove Louisiana on Saturday Night" by Tony Joe White?


Alan

[Rembrandt]

My $98.00 RESIDENT NYS hunting and Fishing license for this year wasn't zackly "FREE".

Neither was my $135 resident licenses, even though I'm the land owner. The reference to free was referring to the cost of owning and leasing land as opposed to paying nothing on public hunting ground. Fee's implemented by the state do not contribute or help manage private & leased land and the game thereon. I stand by the statement that there is no free lunch when it comes to hunting.



With the exception of one person, the majority of trespassers we have caught were all non land owners looking to get free hunting at the property owners expense. For those that ask permission, my thanks....they followed the law and exercised courtesy and ethics.

Having invested nearly a million dollars in hunting land, I'm shocked that certain members of society are offended when they are refused hunting privileges, must think they have some claim to another persons property or they believe in communism.

Sabre, my experience has shown that when a person is loosing their argument, name calling results when they run out of facts.

[Sabre]

Sabre, my experience has shown that when a person is loosing their argument, name calling results when they run out of facts.

There you go with that terrible comprehension disability again. I was never in an argument to begin with here. Just stating how things are in my rural area of upstate NY. I feel sorry for guys like you who will be self limited {by their own selfish ways and local customs} to hunting {or is it more properly just raising and shooting deer ?} their own little piece of ground forever and consequently will never know the freedom of nomadic hunting. I don't know where your land is or what the local customs are but hunting leases are not a tradition in my area and truthfully, it's COMMON PRACTICE to give your neighbors FREE PERMISSION to hunt and even looked upon as kinda unneighborly if you don't. Being as how I'm a well known, lifelong resident of this area and my dad, uncle and grandfather were also well known and respected landowners/ members of the farming community, it's always been VERY EASY for me to get permission to hunt on darn near any farm in the area.

[Herne]

I liked the stripping rear ends. I always found that very - encouraging. Because once you got that far, usually everything else came as well.

As a matter of interest, in the US is trespass a civil matter between two individiuals (a landowner and an univited guest) or is it a police matter.

With us, trespass is a civil affair. You are on my land, and I show that you have cuased damage and I have a claim, else I merely tell you to go away.

Armed trespass is a criminal offence, and you are going to lose your guns if convicted - guaranteed. big time police involved serious deal - and it is the individuals responsibility to know the boundaries.

[Sabre]

Theres another old saying, "When in Rome do as the Roman's do". Nothing irritates small town and county folk more that people who flee the city then complain because things are different than the city and set about remaking what they fled. Not just Texas, but through out the southeast United States private land is sacrosanct. Trespassing to poach is a felony here and perhaps in other southern states. Why? Because that is what works for the people of those states.

Just as you Sabre say people who bring that southeast attitude find themselves frozen out there because it bucks community norms. The strict enforcement legally and socially of property rights down here is the community norm. We would not do well coming up there trying to change your community and I promise you would suffer here if you tried. :)

Truer words were never spoken I'm sure.

[Sabre]

Sabre, first off, Thanks for the invite. Maybe someday, and I'll try and return the favor. I really don't know how anyone of average physical condition actively hunts much over 500 acres in a year and that would be hoofin it for much of the time. When I am still hunting I may not cover 400 yards in a morning and that is moving a lot. Most often it is much less than that. Much of the way I hunt is centered around not allowing the meat to spoil so hiking out an hour is out of the question. Most all of our deer are killed in a road or sendero and can be loaded into a truck from the place they dropped. We get them back to camp and skinned and cooled as quickly as possible. I think the temp dropped below freezing twice last year and I wasn't hunting on either of those days. Most days it's around 60-75 and 45 at night.Alan Alan, The truth is I have way too much land available to me to ever get around to hunting all of it in a season. I very much enjoy the freedom to hop around on a day to day, week to week and season to season basis at my choosing. Rarely do I hunt the same property for more than a few days straight {or for more than one kill, whichever comes first} and neither do I hunt the same properties from year to year any more. I'm continually searching out new ground to hunt from season to season just to stave off boredom. Once I've hunted a place enough to know it well, it becomes more a matter of killing deer than hunting and much of the allure is gone for me. Spoilage isn't normally a concern here. Getting a deer out of the woods, skinned and quartered before it freezes solid sometimes is, and if I have less than a 2 hour drag back to the truck these days it's unusual .:D

[Altjaeger]

I liked the stripping rear ends. I always found that very - encouraging. Because once you got that far, usually everything else came as well.

As a matter of interest, in the US is trespass a civil matter between two individiuals (a landowner and an univited guest) or is it a police matter.

With us, trespass is a civil affair. You are on my land, and I show that you have cuased damage and I have a claim, else I merely tell you to go away.

Armed trespass is a criminal offence, and you are going to lose your guns if convicted - guaranteed. big time police involved serious deal - and it is the individuals responsibility to know the boundaries.

It can be either actually. As a criminal matter an individual's mere presence on anothers property is a crime. Depending on the activity while there and the state involved it can be everything from a matter equivalent of a speeding ticket to a jailable felony offense.

If damage occurs then the owner can file in civil court to recover damages, including possible punitive damages.

I cannot address all states but generally an individual is responsible to know who's property he is on.

[LampLighter]

I believe this thread done passed up my ol .308 thread. :p

[Altjaeger]

I believe this thread done passed up my ol .308 thread. :p

MMMMMMMMMMM maybe!

Which one of the .308 threads?:D

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I knew the "stripping rear ends" would catch some attention!

Alan

[GF.]

Just a couple o' thoughts....

Sabre has a bit of an edge, it turns out, when it comes to getting onto the neighbors' places. Generations of respectable behavior and widespread recognition in the community will do that for you. Farm folk are - nowadays - pretty skeptical of city slickers showing up and asking for trespass privileges, and rightly so, I'm sorry to say. A lot of people have not the first clue as to how to behave around livestock, gates, fences, or anything else that is important to keeping the place running and as close to profitable as a farm or ranch can get. My dad was something of a farm kid, and he taught us what we needed to know....

Rembrandt - I've gotta say that if you've pumped a million dollars into land specifically to make it into a hunter's little patch o' heaven, you're living so far off of Sabre's grid that you'd best shut up before you embarrass yourself any further. People who can pour that kind of luxury spending into land that will otherwise make someone a lean, but honest living are never going to be at peace with the locals, IMO, especially not those few who may be out of work because farmland has been taken out of production to raise deer. And when those 'underhunted' deer wander off of the posted land to eat the neighbors' hard-earned crops.....

Get a clue, dude.

Now, Alan - thanks for the numbers on your family-run ranches; that might have been a way to make a living 100 years ago, but nobody's going to be sending a kid to college on the paycheck you described, hunting fees or no. That way of life is doomed, I'm afraid. As a guy whose family (on my dad's side) had to sell the old homestead because it didn't produce enough to cover the farm manager's fees to lease the land to a bigger operation, I think I'm closer to that reality than you might have guessed ;) My mom still keeps her family's place in IL, because -beyond her being the sole heir - it's productive enough to make the numbers work, given that the guys working it are running enough acres to make it cost-effective for all concerned. Split the dollars 6 or more ways as on Dad's side, and it isn't worth the effort. I think Mom's place is still just far enough outside of Chicagoland to be worth too much as farm land to sell to a developer, and I hope it always is...

Here in the northeast, we have a huge problem with development, of course, but we also have these cute little anti-development city folks that Sabre mentioned; people who move to the country for the peace and quiet and friendly neighbors, and then end up suing the farmer next door for making so damn much racket by operating all that noisy farm machinery at god-awful early hours of the morning, or over the fact that a certain aroma comes their way when the wind blows from the general direction of the nearest dairy barn.... Needless to say, these people aren't keen on letting so much as a bowhunter onto their place, let alone somebody with a gun. Remember - these people think they moved to the country to get away from guns...:rolleyes:

But that doesn't keep them from screaming about deer eating the petunias out of the pots on the porch....:eek:

[Twanger]

I liked the stripping rear ends. I always found that very - encouraging. Because once you got that far, usually everything else came as well.

As a matter of interest, in the US is trespass a civil matter between two individiuals (a landowner and an univited guest) or is it a police matter.

With us, trespass is a civil affair. You are on my land, and I show that you have cuased damage and I have a claim, else I merely tell you to go away.

Armed trespass is a criminal offence, and you are going to lose your guns if convicted - guaranteed. big time police involved serious deal - and it is the individuals responsibility to know the boundaries.

According to the kids (who are cops) here in Maryland if somebody trespasses on property that is not posted they get one free pass. The owner has to catch them in the act and verbally tell them that they are trespassing and must leave. If they come back then they are immediately liable for prosecution. It's pretty tough to get the police to arrest somebody unless they catch them in the act, so the first thing you do if you suspect a trespasser is to call 911. Saying something like "I might have heard a shot, or I'm worried that they are armed" will get you quicker response. Oh... get video or photos if at all possible. AND - document the heck out of the situation. When, where, description of vehicle, etc.

[Rembrandt]

Just a couple o' thoughts....

Rembrandt - I've gotta say that if you've pumped a million dollars into land specifically to make it into a hunter's little patch o' heaven, you're living so far off of Sabre's grid that you'd best shut up before you embarrass yourself any further. People who can pour that kind of luxury spending into land that will otherwise make someone a lean, but honest living are never going to be at peace with the locals, IMO, especially not those few who may be out of work because farmland has been taken out of production to raise deer. And when those 'underhunted' deer wander off of the posted land to eat the neighbors' hard-earned crops.....

Get a clue, dude.


Afraid you've read more into my comment than was there....the land invested in is not dedicated specifically for deer hunting. While deer hunting is a nice side benefit the main purpose is agriculture. A million dollars doesn't buy much Iowa farm land when it goes for 5-to-7 thousand an acre. Wasn't aware farming was a luxury expense.

[Bill Gunn]

A million dollars doesn't buy much Iowa farm land when it goes for 5-to-7 thousand an acre. Wasn't aware farming was a luxury expense.

That's my take on the entire situation.
Trespassers do not buy any land, nor pay any taxes on it, yet they feel entitled to the benefits of the paying landowners :confused:

If you are lucky enough to be an invited guest on others land, count your blessings, and respect the privilege.

It's as simple as that
JMHO...

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Having permission to hunt a patch of woods is not trespassing.

Alan

[GF.]

Having invested nearly a million dollars in hunting land.........

If you can't say what you mean, you'd best mean what you say....

[Rembrandt]

Sorry to have mislead you...accept my apologies. Farmland, hunting land is kinda all the same thing around here.

[GF.]

So now that we're closer to being on the same page....;)

I'm not at all suggesting that a trespasser is within their rights to violate a property line, but just to back up a little...

How long has this land been in your family?
How many of the locals used to be able to hunt the place?
How many have access today?
How many family members are hunting the place at present?
How does that hunter density compare to your area in general?
How much good cover is on the property vs. the surrounding areas?
Are you surrounded by public land or private?

If you bought the place pretty recently (which in farm country usually means that the actual buyer is still living ;) ), then that's a problem because you folks are new in town.

If the land purchased was bought specifically because it held good hunting cover, then that's a problem, because you've pretty well hogged the best real estate for this particular purpose. And recall that 'hogged' is a highly subjective term, with a definition that swings far and wide between the 'haves' and have-nots'.

If the locals used to be allowed to hunt there and now can't, then you've really got a PR problem, because you scooped up the best and pushed everybody else off onto the leavings.

And if the herd is growing on your place - whether because you're managing it well or simply because you've created a de facto wildlife refuge - and a guy can hunt hard (elsewhere) all through the weekend, see nothing, and then watch a whole herd mill around on your place as he drives past on his way to work on Monday morning, then you have to expect a guy like that to be less than happy for you.

I'd expect that the problem is just the same as it is around here - it's not that there aren't enough hunters to control the deer population; it's that the available hunters have patchy, feast-or-famine access to the animals... which are owned either by nobody or by everybody or both, depending on your point of view. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that to those stricken by famine, those at the feast will inevitably look like of bunch of selfish SOBs until they start sharing. Your intentions - the 'cause', let's say - don't matter, because the effect is the same regardless; deer tend to congregate where food is plentiful and hunting pressure is low.

So what's in the mind of a trespasser? Simple stuff:

That you only have rights to the land, not the deer. (Which is true, IMO)

That he has the same rights to the deer that you do. (Also true, IMO, so far as that goes)

That you have more deer on your property than you have hunters to thin them out (which is no doubt why you posted the land in the first place, so that, too, has plenty of truth to it). That's another way of saying that you've deliberately concentrated a public resource on private property, which in effect, privatizes the resource.

That he's therefore entitled to have access to the resource and that he's actually doing you a favor by helping you remove some of that surplus (the latter is also true if he has your permission to do so).

After that, it's a very small step for a person without much in the way of manners, morals or ethics to rationalize breaking the law. Truth is, it's a small step for anyone, but bottom line is simply that some will take it and others will not.

For those who will, all you can do is hand the issue off to law enforcement. But do you think that as a thoughtful/good will gesture towards those who do respect you, your property lines, and the law, maybe you could see your way clear to sharing some of the blessings that have been heaped upon you?

It doesn't matter so much exactly what you do... Maybe you invite local kids out for a 'mentored' experience to help get 'em hooked; maybe you open the place up to anybody who just wants to fill a doe tag; maybe you let folks come out to hunt on a buck tag, but everybody- landowner's family or no - has to hold out for some minimum rack size or age class; maybe you limit it to family-only for the opening weekend and then let some of the locals come on; maybe there's enough interest in one or more of the above options that you put guests' names into a hat every year and some of 'em win the lottery once in a while.

JMO, once the locals feel like they have a chance to hunt the 'quality' experience you're trying to create, they'll have a stake in helping you reach your 'management' goals; that translates into a reduced tolerance for trespassing among the locals, and then you hardly need the police any more.

No, your trophy hunting won't necessarily be all that it could be if you kept it all to yourself, but then, too, it could be worth a whole lot more.

[dave-t.]

If the land purchased was bought specifically because it held good hunting cover, then that's a problem, because you've pretty well hogged the best real estate for this particular purpose. And recall that 'hogged' is a highly subjective term, with a definition that swings far and wide between the 'haves' and have-nots'.


So is a hunter supposed to buy crap land to prevent hard feelings?:rolleyes:

When I was shopping for a house and land, I gave a good long look at the land layout, cover, and deer sign. If it's up for sale, someone is going to end up with it, and the locals had their fair shot too.

I do have to say that I have been very blessed in my life with gaining hunting access for free. I've been hunting 1100 acres in north MO for 12+yrs now at no cost to me. Being willing to take does goes a long way, and of course being impecable in regards to respecting the land and the owner. I lucked into my biggest buck up there, and the 'locals' (I call them friends) were as happy for me as if any one of them had got him.

There have been a lot of other 20-240acre land owners that were good enough to have helped a poor kid out when I was looking for a place to hunt. Without having that access, I'd be a different man and hunter than I am today.

The flip side, I'm considering letting a guy from work who is interested in getting started hunting come over and hunt the early doe rifle season in early Oct. He hasn't asked, but I may offer. The down side is, I have no idea how he is with guns, or if he is a capable shot. I'm willing, but that is a pretty big downside.

[GF.]

O' course not. If one guy buys up all the best land in an area, it just gives the locals a smaller target for all of their displeasure at being locked out of it. :D

It's just a difference in attitude - the difference between "I've been blessed and I'm willing to share at least some of that with others" vs. a snarky "It sucks to be you!"

It doesn't matter if you're perfectly within your rights, it's just bad manners to be an ass about it. :rolleyes:


(And no, that's not directed at anybody here, just sort of a general POV on the subject ....)

[Sidekick]

I think you give most tresspassers too much credit when you say they rationalize their tresspassing. I don't think they do. They don't care about you or your property. They're not helping you manage your herd. They're just there to shoot whatever they can and possibly steal your stand in the process. The reason most of them "have" to tresspass to hunt is because they are such lowlifes no one will give them permission in the first place.

[Rembrandt]

....So what's in the mind of a trespasser? Simple stuff:

That you only have rights to the land, not the deer. (Which is true, IMO)

That he has the same rights to the deer that you do. (Also true, IMO, so far as that goes)

While that may be in his mind, the premise is flawed....the trespasser has no right to deer on property that he has no permission to hunt, that's the law.


The fact that someone may be miffed because they weren't invited to hunt the property speaks more to the disrespect they have for others. Interesting that the ones that want property owners to share on the basis that they're doing the farmer a favor by reducing the herd...makes a weak argument.

Perhaps if the situation were reversed it might show the fallacy of the thought process. Yes, you can hunt my land that I scrimped and saved to purchase....but because I did so, I drive a 20 year old truck. So in exchange you the hunter let me use your new pickup, ATV, and firearm for a few months so everyone gets what they want. (Any takers?)

[Sidekick]

It's always interesting to me how some people want to use your place for their own private playground. Like when they ask if they can cut wood. Sure! Come on over and cut down any damn tree you want and leave brush and ruts everywhere. Oh, and fish all you want I don't mind stocking the ponds for your pleasure. Bring your dirtbikes and atv's because I don't care if you use my farm for a motocross track. And help yourself to the stands that I built near the food plots that I put in. After all, I do all this work just for you. I worked pretty hard to get my little piece of heaven and I do share it with a select few but my generosity has it's limits. I even had someone show up in my driveway with a pickup load of tree branches that they trimmed looking for a place to dump them. I directed them to an old pond where I had been shoving brush for years and the next time I went out that way I found it piled up in the road in the middle of my hayfield. I could go on and on....

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Wait a minute there! I think I smell a lease situation. your willing to trade something of value for something of value. If you're going to run a lease in Texas you have to get a "Hunting Lease License".

GF, I think your thinking is what a rational person would use to rationalize getting pissed about not being able to hunt a piece of property. Trespassing/poaching is not a rational activity. It is lawlessness plain and simple and there is no rationalizing that. You're also making a sweeping assumption that those of us who own land do not allow others to hunt. That assumption may be right in some cases but I would venture that the vast majority of landowners do, to some extent allow others to hunt. We simply do not allow trespassing. IF, on the other hand, I have leased the property to others and their money has proven to be good, then I, as the landowner, have an obligation to that contract to reduce or eliminate trespassing.

If I buy/rent a house, a nice house, with more room than I need, and in that house is air, and air is communal property or belongs to no one, whatever the case may be, then I assure you that no one, but me and those I choose to allow, may come into my house to breathe the air that belongs to us all or none of us in particular. And that's all there is to that. The air comes and goes as it may without restriction. I may have an air conditioner, purifier, and a few stick-ups around to enhance my air, but that is my choice to do or not and I am under no obligation to anyone to allow them a bit of my fresh, cool, good smellin air.

Alan

[Sidekick]

Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Wait a minute there! I think I smell a lease situation. your willing to trade something of value for something of value. If you're going to run a lease in Texas you have to get a "Hunting Lease License".

GF, I think your thinking is what a rational person would use to rationalize getting pissed about not being able to hunt a piece of property. Trespassing/poaching is not a rational activity. It is lawlessness plain and simple and there is no rationalizing that. You're also making a sweeping assumption that those of us who own land do not allow others to hunt. That assumption may be right in some cases but I would venture that the vast majority of landowners do, to some extent allow others to hunt. We simply do not allow trespassing. IF, on the other hand, I have leased the property to others and their money has proven to be good, then I, as the landowner, have an obligation to that contract to reduce or eliminate trespassing.

If I buy/rent a house, a nice house, with more room than I need, and in that house is air, and air is communal property or belongs to no one, whatever the case may be, then I assure you that no one, but me and those I choose to allow, may come into my house to breathe the air that belongs to us all or none of us in particular. And that's all there is to that. The air comes and goes as it may without restriction. I may have an air conditioner, purifier, and a few stick-ups around to enhance my air, but that is my choice to do or not and I am under no obligation to anyone to allow them a bit of my fresh, cool, good smellin air.

Alan

I don't know if I've ever heard it said any better.

[Rembrandt]

...If I buy/rent a house, a nice house, with more room than I need, and in that house is air, and air is communal property or belongs to no one, whatever the case may be, then I assure you that no one, but me and those I choose to allow, may come into my house to breathe the air that belongs to us all or none of us in particular. And that's all there is to that. The air comes and goes as it may without restriction. I may have an air conditioner, purifier, and a few stick-ups around to enhance my air, but that is my choice to do or not and I am under no obligation to anyone to allow them a bit of my fresh, cool, good smellin air.

Alan


Are we to understand you won't share your toothbrush or wife?

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Are we to understand you won't share your toothbrush or wife?

That is correct.

Alan

[Sabre]

Most of you act like a bunch of selfish little kids not wanting to share their matchbox cars with the neighbor kids. The way I see it, someone entering your home is MUCH DIFFERENT than somebody traipsing across the back 40 {big freakin' deal:rolleyes: are you afraid they're gonna run off with your land or find your illegal bait piles or your pot patch?} and maybe leaving boot prints in your woods, or heaven forbid, SHOOTING ONE OF YOUR HAND RAISED BUCKS ! If you sorry excuses for hunters would QUIT trying to raise deer {or more truthfully an easily harvested antler CROP} like so much livestock and learn how to HUNT {fat chance I know but it's too bad nobody just plain enjoys HUNTING anymore} for God sakes you wouldn't have to worry so much about the neighbors killing one of your hand raised pets.:eek: Most of todays mighty "trophy hunters" just make me wanna PUKE. There, now I feel much better getting that off my chest !

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Sabre, those are some wide, sweeping assumptions as well and it leads me to the conclusion that you really don't know what you're talking about in-so-far-as the situations you describe.(i.e. illegal bait piles, pot patches, hand raised deer, etc.) As I've said trespassing is not about allowing others to hunt property, it's about others doing so without the knowledge, consent, or permission af the landowner. This is not an unusual situation, in fact much of the world operates under these rules and has for a long time. I really don't find the difference hard to understand at all.

Alan

[Rembrandt]

Most of you act like a bunch of selfish little kids not wanting to share their matchbox cars with the neighbor kids. The way I see it, someone entering your home is MUCH DIFFERENT than somebody traipsing across the back 40 {big freakin' deal:rolleyes: are you afraid they're gonna run off with your land or find your illegal bait piles or your pot patch?} and maybe leaving boot prints in your woods, or heaven forbid, SHOOTING ONE OF YOUR HAND RAISED BUCKS ! If you sorry excuses for hunters would QUIT trying to raise deer {or more truthfully an easily harvested antler CROP} like so much livestock and learn how to HUNT {fat chance I know but it's too bad nobody just plain enjoys HUNTING anymore} for God sakes you wouldn't have to worry so much about the neighbors killing one of your hand raised pets.:eek: Most of todays mighty "trophy hunters" just make me wanna PUKE. There, now I feel much better getting that off my chest !


Enlightening insight to the character and values of a person who would make those assumptions.

[postoak]

In Texas, the landowner typically wouldn't be able to give permission to hunt his land because he's leased out the hunting rights to it. The lease holders would be mighty pissed and rightfully so, and the landowner would be legally liable.

But even if that weren't the case I wouldn't allow just anyone on my land (if I had any) because of fear:

1) Of Legal liability if they got hurt

2) that they might shoot me or my familiy or my livestock

3) Of them not leaving gates open or closed like I want them

4) Of them littering

5) Of them making truck ruts or driving over crops, etc.

But, as Alan said NONE of that has anything to do with trespassing, anyway.

[southtexas]

Well at least Sabre feels better...

[DaveHawk]

Sabre , you don't get out much do ya LOL

Alan good post.

[Sabre]

Sabre , you don't get out much do ya LOL

Alan good post.

By the sounds of things I'd bet I "get out" and do more hunting on more different properties than anyone else here.

[Sabre]

Enlightening insight to the character and values of a person who would make those assumptions.

Means nothing coming from such a sorry excuse for a hunter as yourself. Besides, I know for a fact that some of those reasons I gave above for being so concerned about trespassers are EXACTLY WHY one local family here guards their property like it was full of gold mines.

[DaveHawk]

so you have one example to allow you to put or group all hunters in and land owners.

[45seventy]

Well,
I don't mind the boot prints at all, its the ATV ruts in my road,
the beer cans and bottles I have to clean up, and the cut down
trees I find just so someone can have a campfire, that's what
pisses me off about trespassers. So call me a selfish little kid.
I own 60 acres in Il ,all wooded and UNFENCED, and the property owner
next to me has 10acres and shares a common border. I constantly
find him on my property looking for places to put deer stands. I ask him
why he doesn't hunt his 10. He says there is no deer on his 10, and that they are all on mine. That is not my fault. However, the other side of his property borders a corn or bean field (whatever the farmer has decided to rotate that year) and always has deer in it. He just too stupid to realize it, and thinks deer are always hiding in woods. So, I asked him if I could put a stand overlooking the field, and he has the balls to say NO! you stay off my property. Now, I'm supposed to be all touchy feely with him and be a good neighbor? That guy is what I call a tresspasser, and I know what is in his mind, nuthin but air. Sorry for MY rant.

[45seventy]

So Sabre, sounds like you are just mad cuz you
can't hunt that local families property too.

[dave-t.]

Besides, I know for a fact that some of those reasons I gave above for being so concerned about trespassers are EXACTLY WHY one local family here guards their property like it was full of gold mines.

I lost the best piece of hunting land I've ever been on when I stumbled upon the other guys bait pile. MO is a no bait state, and the guy was a relative of the landowner, and a cop.

I don't know what the cop told the landowner about me, but man it was over right then with extreme prejudice. "Don't come to the house, don't call, it's over and keep out!":eek::(

[LampLighter]

I "get out" and do more hunting on more different properties


:eek::eek: Ah, .... whose properties ? :D:D:D

[DaveHawk]

WOW dave that sucks.

I lost my spot after 20 years of great hunting when Russel died. The family sold the property for 14.5 mil and now 37 million dollar homes sit on it.

[Sabre]

So Sabre, sounds like you are just mad cuz you
can't hunt that local families property too.

Guess again bud. Read through the whole thread and you'll see I already have more land to hunt than time to hunt it.

[Sabre]

:eek::eek: Ah, .... whose properties ? :D:D:D

Read the whole thread and you'll see I've already explained that. I ain't goin' through it again for your benefit.

[Sabre]

I lost the best piece of hunting land I've ever been on when I stumbled upon the other guys bait pile. MO is a no bait state, and the guy was a relative of the landowner, and a cop.

I don't know what the cop told the landowner about me, but man it was over right then with extreme prejudice. "Don't come to the house, don't call, it's over and keep out!":eek::(

Yep, you've got the picture. Just tends to make me wonder what others who guard their land so jealously might have to hide.

[Sabre]

Well,
I don't mind the boot prints at all, its the ATV ruts in my road,
the beer cans and bottles I have to clean up, and the cut down
trees I find just so someone can have a campfire, that's what
pisses me off about trespassers. So call me a selfish little kid.
I own 60 acres in Il ,all wooded and UNFENCED, and the property owner
next to me has 10acres and shares a common border. I constantly
find him on my property looking for places to put deer stands. I ask him
why he doesn't hunt his 10. He says there is no deer on his 10, and that they are all on mine. That is not my fault. However, the other side of his property borders a corn or bean field (whatever the farmer has decided to rotate that year) and always has deer in it. He just too stupid to realize it, and thinks deer are always hiding in woods. So, I asked him if I could put a stand overlooking the field, and he has the balls to say NO! you stay off my property. Now, I'm supposed to be all touchy feely with him and be a good neighbor? That guy is what I call a tresspasser, and I know what is in his mind, nuthin but air. Sorry for MY rant.

Yep, I'd be pissed about that too. I've never had anybody cut tree's or leave trash but there are a few around who are perfectly happy to hunt on everybody else's land and yet won't let anybody on theirs. Around here, most of those type's are the city slickers I mentioned in a previous post and they often tend not to be very good neighbors in lots of ways.

[GF.]

[QUOTE}Originally Posted by GF.
....So what's in the mind of a trespasser? Simple stuff:

That you only have rights to the land, not the deer. (Which is true, IMO)

That he has the same rights to the deer that you do. (Also true, IMO, so far as that goes)[?QUOTE]

While that may be in his mind, the premise is flawed....the trespasser has no right to deer on property that he has no permission to hunt, that's the law.

No shit, Sherlock....:rolleyes: Did I ever suggest otherwise????? You asked what's in the minds of these people, and I offered a few of my own insighst. I never suggested that they were in any way within their rights to take the law into their own hands just to make themselves happy at your expense.


GF, I think your thinking is what a rational person would use to rationalize getting pissed about not being able to hunt a piece of property. Trespassing/poaching is not a rational activity. It is lawlessness plain and simple and there is no rationalizing that. You're also making a sweeping assumption that those of us who own land do not allow others to hunt. That assumption may be right in some cases but I would venture that the vast majority of landowners do, to some extent allow others to hunt. We simply do not allow trespassing. IF, on the other hand, I have leased the property to others and their money has proven to be good, then I, as the landowner, have an obligation to that contract to reduce or eliminate trespassing.

Again, total agreement; but in Rembrandt's case, he did lead off by pretty much stating that his family restricts access to family members. I, on the other hand, was looking at ways that someone in his situation could earn a little good will and - frankly - a lot of volunteer surveillance/enforcement by sharing whatever surplus he might have with others in his area.

Frankly, I'm a little tired of hearing Rembrandt justify what he has by suggesting that those who have less (or simply different) have somehow been less virtuous than he (not that I'm convinced that this is his land, so much as a family-owned operation, part of which he stands to inherit.) No matter, though. I live around people who are constantly justifying the incredible amounts of luxury/discretionary stuff that they've accumulated. Sure, they work hard - ridiculously so, for a bunch of people who could have quit their jobs anywhere from 10 to 30 years ago and never had to work another day in their lives - but very few of them work anywhere near as hard as my dad did throughout his career, or my mother-in-law's 100% legal immigrant housekeeper, either, for that matter, and neither my dad nor the housekeeper had/has any option on retiring.

Any one of us who thinks he's entitled to what he has because of his own hard work or personal virtue ought to spend a little more time studying his theology, IMO. That doesn't mean that we're compelled to open up whatever private land we hold to the entire world so that they can abuse it, but maybe we shouldn't be so damn proud of ourselves, either...

Anyway... PostOak raised few concerns, but as he said, those aren't anything to do with trespassing, just the behavior of those who are on the property, invited or not. Sabre doesn't care who uses his property because everybody in his neck of the woods knows how to behave themselves. Sounds pretty civilized to me!

And FWIW, in CT, at least, a landowner can't be sued for injuries sustained by someone hunting the property unless the landowner charges them a fee to be there; if it's a gift, the owner is covered for anything that's not seriously negligent; if it's business, then the business owner is requird to run a safe operation, so the liabilities go way up....

[brownie]

Drew a tag this year in Unit 7 Nevada..... I know nothing about unit 7. I am planning at this point in time to hunt the snake mountains north of Wells Nevada. Anyone out there familiar with this unit that could give a guy a little advice?

[LampLighter]

brownie, I would make a NEW thread . More people will see it. If your Harry Reid rep has his way, you will be in NO zone hunting.

[Rembrandt]

Frankly, I'm a little tired of hearing Rembrandt justify what he has by suggesting that those who have less (or simply different) have somehow been less virtuous than he (not that I'm convinced that this is his land, so much as a family-owned operation, part of which he stands to inherit.)

Sorry to disappoint, no inheritance or hand-me-down property.....acquired it the old fashioned way, working for it just like your father worked. As far as only allowing family members, it's reserved for my children, grandkids, and nephews. It's not justifying what I have as pointing out the mindset of those that want to take something they never earned from someone else.

[GF.]

The trouble is, hoss, that you're using something that can be bought/sold/earned in a way that controls/limits/denies public access to something which cannot be bought, sold or earned.

Your dirt.


Not your deer.

You're focused on property rights, where an honest man objecting to the Posted signs is really looking at it as more of a public resource issue and - IMO - both parties have a valid claim, with the legal advantage going to the landowner. But if you're at all honest with yourself, you'll have to admit that you can't possibly sequester a public resource on private property and expect anybody but the private landholder to like it. Most states prohibit fencing deer in on a property - and for very good reason - but if the deer on open, private land never leave it during hunting hours, does it matter if you're fenced or not?

Not to the guys outside the signs. You can bet your boots on that.

What does matter to a lot of us would-be 'guest' hunters is the landowner's attitude. I've been put off aplenty by the signs that read "No Hunting, No Fishing, No Trespassing and DON'T EVEN ASK!!!", or the ones that openly threaten physical violence towards anyone who dares cross the fence. Likewise, I've had my fill of people who act as offended by the mere act of asking permission as you'd expect an ordinary/reasonable person to be if you were caught actually trespassing. These people and practices don't exactly breed a lot of good will.....:rolleyes:

I'm no more or less likely to trespass on an SOB's land than anybody else's, just because I was brought up where you just Don't. But my attitude toward the landowner is hardly the same as when I see a sign that reads 'Private Property - Hunting & Fishing by Permission Only', and that can come back to haunt or bless the landowner in any number of ways.


Just a guess, but you seem pretty committed to this attitude of 'Mine, mine, mine - and to hell with the rest of you!', and it seems to me that you're getting back just about what you deserve. I said it before and will do so again - if you were to be a bit more accommodating towards some of the locals, you'd have a lot less trouble with any of them.

Call it good manners, call it common courtesy, call it being neighborly; whatever it is, it's important. Respect begets respect.

[Sidekick]

Why should you give anyone permission when they've already given it to themselves?
I allow limited tresspass simply because I don't like it when I'm sitting in a stand or turkey hunting and some sob I've never seen before comes walking up or driving across the middle of the field. Harshly worded signs were likely put up for a reason. Family and friends have almost unlimited access. Strangers that show up at the door don't. And I'll bet that is pretty close to Rembrandt's situation.