Good news... Bad news...

[GF.]

So kind of on the spur of the moment, I brought up the subject of the CO Elk season, and the missus said yes to a week-plus trip out west. Two reasons, really; one is that my dad's not doing well with his memory and I need some time with him while he's still pretty much himself.

The other is that little bro and I haven't seen each other in 4 freakin' years now, so I'm hoping to spend 3-4 days on the hill with him.

So here's the trouble.... The Stingers have arrived; I screwed one on and it was flying like a Cy Young award-winning sinker. Most of the time. I'm thinking that there might have been some effect of a headwind blowing through the narrow space where I was shooting, but that's no consolation to a guy who's headed to 10,000 feet, where wind just is, all the time.... I was getting good, tight groups one minute and the broadhead sinking (and a field point hitting as a high flyer) the next.

So what's the right call? With 2 weeks to go is not ideal timing for a shake-up, and I doubt that I can get it to the shop and back anyway, short of going to that place that wanted to charge me $75 or whatever it was just to tell me my draw length....

Mo' data... I was able to get better groups focusing on back tension.

And I noticed the moleskin on the drop-away was peeling off a little in one spot, and smoothing it back down seemed to help, so I'll just put on new altogether.

I've got a dozen new arrahs on the way now, fletched 5" offset feathers instead of the 4" vanes I started with.

And the last thing is that shot noise seems to be really variable since I added the limbsavers and the stab. Vibration in the grip, believe it or not, actually seems worse since I added those, BTW... The variability has me a little confused, but thinking it might have been related to the vane dragging against the peeling moleskin....


:confused:

What would you recommend?? I'm kinda hoping the bigger fletchings will mask a host of sins, at this point....

One real good thing, though - after at least a dozen trips into the Block, I took the head across a stone just a few dozen strokes and cleaned a patch of hair right off my forearm.....

[LampLighter]

Can you tell me your Finished arrow weight, AND your actual peak draw weight ?

Go to www.jacksonarchery.com for the old school arrow weight charts.

[dave-t.]

Move your rest 1/16" at a time to bring your b-heads and practice tips together. This is a normal tuning issue that everyone has to work through.

Shoot a practice head, then shoot a b-head. Adjust the rest (one direction at a time) up, until the practice tip and b-head are on horizontally. Next move the rest toward the practice tip until they are hitting together. Adjust your whole sight bracket when you are b-head tuned (both tips are grouping together), and the rest of the pins should be back on. Test a couple diff distances to be sure though. Also, I can't explain why, but sometimes an adjustment vertically will affect arrow flight horrizontally, and reverse. Don't get frustrated working on this, keeping working through it, AND KEEP YOUR FORM CONSISTANT.

If for whatever reason the direction it is supposed to go doesn't work and the b-head really slings out there, go the other way with the adjustment.

If your arrows aren't spined correctly or you have form issues, well....now you know why 50+% of mech users are mech users. This is where shooting 280+fps can really catch up to you, fixed blade arrow flight.

Best of luck, and don't be afraid of messing with your equipment. If you are worried, take a couple measurements of where the rest is now, and you can get back to where you were, but that ain't broad head tuned.

Don't feel bad, I am shooting bulet holes through paper, but my Montecs are hitting 3" low at 20yds, and I seem to have misplaced my hex wrench that fits the rest.:o Paper tuning is just a start and typically not a finishing tuning practice.

Also, the bigger fletches will help some, maybe even quite a bit, but there is no hiding at extended ranges.

Good luck, you can figure this out, just have patience and give it as much time as it needs.

[GF.]

Thanks guys....

To LL's point, I don't think it's a spine issue, because the shafts are exactly what Beman says they oughtta be - 400 series. Those are 8.4 gr/inch spec weight, so my total arrow weight should be around 350 even - I'm at 322 and a half with just the shaft and the 100-grain head, according to the calculator, so inserts, nock and fletching probably get me right about there... Do you really think I'm hitting 280, though? The 'birth certificate' had it shooting 306 at 29", so I suppose that's somewhere near possible....

On the tuning thing, though... They're hitting with the field points at 15 - 18 or so, and then the BHs start to drop out, but obviously that starts some yards short of the target... That seems more like a planing thing, no? It just throws me, because it seems like the bad flight starts right about where they ought to be settling down and going good & true.....:confused:

I think I may hold out for the new shafts to arrive before I start diddling with that rest, but just in case... When you say to raise it, do you move the whole she-bang, or (with the fall-away), can I get away with dialing the prongs up a hair?

I just realized that I have an excuse to work from home coming up here, so I may swing past the guy who did my set-up after all. Trouble is, in his shop, I can only shoot 50 feet, and at that distance, it's still 'tuned'.....


So let's hope the new shafts show up quick! Meantime, I can work the form and see if by any chance that clears things up. That has to be as perfect as I can get it regardless, right? :D

[LampLighter]

If you are drawing 60 lbs or more, I say your finished weight is too lite. 360 grain minimum for 60 lb draw.

I draw 62 lbs and my finished weight is right around 430 g. Dead quiet and plenty fast. No limbsavers eithr- only the factory hush kit.

[ncboman]

If you are drawing 60 lbs or more, I say your finished weight is too lite. 360 grain minimum for 60 lb draw.

...

I agree and suggest you find three ACC 371 arrows to your length and compare results before moving anything. Everything improves by leaning toward heavier arrows.

We tried to tell ya. :rolleyes:

[dave-t.]

A 300grn arrow is what is used for published ibo speed for 60lb draw weights, 350grn for 70lbs. Those are the safe minimum weight arrows to shoot for those draw weights. Go lower than that and some manufacturers void the warrantee.

I hunted quite a few of years with a 28" 345grn arrow shooting 60lbs, knowing I was on the light side, but didn't have any troubles at all getting passthroughs when I didn't hit bone.

I did use mechs for the majority of those years because fixed blade flight could get squirrely, but also used slick tricks, montecs, and some big satalite titan two blade heads, but getting them to tune wasn't always easy.

Bow shops take that chart on the wall as gospel, but it ain't always that easy.

When I bought my last doz arrows, I told the clerk I was drawing 70lbs, just so he wouldn't try to argue with me about what I wanted to buy for my 60lb bow.:rolleyes:

[LampLighter]

Forget all that ibo stuff. That is not real. Go by the AMO and you won't need those band aid mech heads. That is why the mech heads got popular because individuals had went too light for summertime 3d in an effort to cut down on trajectory and win a trophy. October rolled around, and they wanted to go hunting. Opps :eek: we done modified our bows back in June. Quick fix- the mech head.

No man, we tried to tell you. Get away from all that and get around 360 to 400 with 60 lb. draw, and get some good regular heads, and go hunting.

[Twanger]

Not to pile on, but I do agree... heavier arrows. You can make em heavier by upping the head to 125gr - cheaper than buying another two dozen arrows iin the 340-class spine. I am probably wrong, but subscribe to the camp that it's hard to have too heavy a head, but it's easy to be too light.

You might get away with 'walk back' tuning with BH's and FP's like was suggested above. When I changed to the biscuit that's I did. Started at 10 yds and moved stuff around until BH's and FP's matched holes and then walked back to 20 and 30 yds. A couple of tweeks and they are within 1" at 30 yards. Good enough.

[dave-t.]

Also, to get close to your fps, you take ibo weight arrow of 300grn, for every 3grns of weight over that you lose about 1fps.

350grn arrow, 17fps below ibo.

For every inch of draw length you take off, that is around 10fps lost.

Example-If you have a 28" draw, shooting a 350grn arrow, you are around 279fps, if the ibo was 306fps. 269fps@27" draw, etc.

Whatever your speed, even 220fps, fixed blade b-heads don't fly from an untuned bow, they swerve.:o

[ncboman]

Walt, increasing broadhead weight actually loosens the spine of the arrow.

[Twanger]

Yes increasing the head weight does effectively reduce the spine of the arrow. If the arrow is underspined then this only makes the tuning worse, and is even dangerous, but I don't think GF is knocking on that door with a 60lb draw.

I think spine is overplayed these days. It's not like we're shooting cedar arrows with fingers off a flipper rest. :D

Center shot rests with releases don't impart a lot of bending force to arrows as they leave the bow. The critical thing is getting the arrow strong enough so it will not crush and fracture under the stress of the shot. It's far better and does not impart that significant a penalty in accuracy to shoot an arrow that is overspined. Unfortunately for GF that would mean chucking his current arrows to get increased weight and spine. At 60lb draw I don't think that radical a move is required.

[ncboman]

He's not that far underspined but I bet a good stiff arrow would be night/day difference in arow flight.

That's why I suggest a 371, because I see how well they fly from several of my bows from 60 to 70+lbs, and think that would be a very good measure. I seriously doubt he'd be having these problems with stiffer arrows, not to mention noise.

Expecting fletchings to correct spine problems is wishful thinking too. A proper spined arrow from a well tuned bow actually requires very little fletching. I did numerous experiments with different size/styles of fletchings years ago and at the end of the day, found I had wasted my money, time, and untold effort. :rolleyes:

[GF.]

Wow!

I guess I finally found the way to set off a spate of activity 'round here :D

So for round two.... Let's review the numbers:

The shafts are 400 series, not 340s; and that's a good thing, because the bow's factory spec adjusts up to #70, and I have it maxed out.

Now, if I'm thinking straight, raising those prongs essentially lowers my nocking point, which reduces the bending force on the shaft, correct? And by flexing the shaft a little less, there's a bit of a spine 'increase' baked in, right?

Also....

I got the moleskin situation sorted out on the rest by just removing one overlapping 'flap' that was causing the trouble, and that got me feeling brave enough to take a crack at dialing the prongs up 1 'click' from where the rest was set at the shop. I may still be an inch low at 22 yards, which is where I'm zeroed when I cover the intended POI with the #1 pin.

I'm now down to just two out of my original 5 shafts: I've got 2 from the Robin Hood on the wall here at the office, and I tore one cock feather half off on that bad moleskin, so until the new arrows show up and I can put more shots into each group, I'll see if I can maintain consistency between FP & BH at my longer distances without changing anything else....

Amazing, too, what a difference it made to concentrate on back tension and exactly where the trigger fits into the first crease of my finger. That's probably the up-side of shooting just one of each every time; I'm not getting at all tired, and I'm therefore less likely to get lazy.

I sure hope :rolleyes:

[dave-t.]

If that works out for you, it was an easy fix! Good luck on the new arrows, and don't be afraid to go up another 'click' just to see if it gets better. You can always take it back down.

If you are hitting within 1-2" at 30yds (very close or in your normal 30yds grouping), I'd call it good, but know that I don't intend to shoot beyond 25yds when hunting.

[GF.]

As a guy who once moved the setting on a scope when I was less than half an inch off of absolutely freaking perfect at 200 yards..... :o

Yeah, I was pretty well thrilled with the easiness of the fix so far, so we'll see what happens when I stretch it a little. Elk are a bigger target than deer, but a lot less forgiving of iffy shot placement, IMO. Really, though, as long as the broadheads group right down the middle and stay tight to each other, all I need to know is which pin to use for whatever number the rangefinder spits out..... or that the shot is too close for that to make any difference. It's only if I start hitting wide or scattered that'll ruin my day... right?

I'm hoping, though, that since they seem to be flying tight & true at the 22 yard mark, I'll be in good shape.

My only real concern right now is whether the adjustment to the rest will cause any noticeable difference in my trajectories; I'd hate to find out that I'm now floating as much as 6" high at 15-17 yards instead of 3', or that the overlap between my pins has evaporated.... Right now, they're close enough together that the #2 pin is not unacceptably high at the same ranges where the #1 is not unacceptably low, so my range estimation error tolerance is at about 5 yards....

I hadn't really thought I'd be doing this much shooting with the broadheads just getting 'em dialed in, but I'm glad I'm doing it, 'cuz it just makes it all the more compelling to put in the practice time....

[GF.]

Ordered my new arrows a week ago now - maybe a shade more - and they ain't here yet!

I still hafta make sure I'm tuned past my dang ol' #1 pin! (We need a Boomhauer smiley!)

And beyond that.... Turns out that my Pelican case is just about the right size for the bow, but for as big as that case is is, it still seems pretty tight, and I'm not sure how I'm gonna pack the arrows. Guess the bow is bigger'n I thought....