Shooting spotted fawns or does with spotted fawns

[Twanger]

So how do you feel about this?
There are some that consider shooting a spotted fawn unethical and others a necessary part of deer management. Where do you come down on ths?

Also - would you sooner shoot a doe with spotted fawns or give her a pass?

[purple heart]

First off, I hunt for meat so I wouldn't shoot a fawn. Too small.
We only can get 2 bow tags and 3 deer total for the year so
we have to be a little picky about what we put our tags on.
A big doe with a spotted fawn would be hard to pass up. The
odds are the fawn, if still spotted, isn't going to make it through
the winter with or without the doe.:o

[DaveHawk]

I'll leave them alone also. But come late season when they are 65 pounds there down.

[dave-t.]

I've done it, mostly because I hadn't done it up to that point. Don't really care if I shoot another with spots or not. Our antlerless tags are $7 each, and unlimited. If I'm shooting a meat deer for me, I prefer a fawn, 80lbs or less.

In that scenario, doe with fawn/s, I prefer to take the fawn doe and leave the mother and button buck.

I think the fawns have a better chance at survival if the doe is with them until November. After that the fawn is 80lbs+ around here, and should have as good a chance as any for making it through the winter.

[LampLighter]

A big doe with a spotted fawn would be hard to pass up. The
odds are the fawn, if still spotted, isn't going to make it through
the winter with or without the doe.


While I respect your actions for receiving a purple heart, conservation-wise, you are pathetic and do not belong hunting. What a pathetic topic to answer yes to. Hard to pass up :mad: I'm sorry folks, that is as lame as it gets. I regulary let does walk with small unspotted little ones in tow. This is a new low here on h.a.

[My buddy]

While I respect your actions for receiving a purple heart, conservation-wise, you are pathetic and do not belong hunting. What a pathetic topic to answer yes to. Hard to pass up :mad: I'm sorry folks, that is as lame as it gets. I regulary let does walk with small unspotted little ones in tow. This is a new low here on h.a.


Your comments are about the lamest I have seen on any hunting site.

Maybe it should be you that reconsiders hunting.

First, even if a fawn has spots, come Sept 15th (when the season in MD opens) they can fend for themselves. In fact, on the opener I shot a doe with two fawns (one with and one without spots). Both fawns seemed completely capable of fending for themselves as they appeared to be eating more freshly fallen acorns than mom.

So if anyone is pathetic, it is you for name calling someone that is giving an honest answer.

Also, what do you know about the deer conservation in his area. In my locale you are allowed to take an unlimited number of anterless deer, due to overpopulation. So in my area, shooting any deer regardless of age is doing something good for not only the herd but the environment they live in.

I think, just for you, I'll take out the next spotted fawn that gives me a shot. Maybe even two.

[Wapitibill]

I have shot many spotted fawns. Some of them were were only about a month old. This was done legally on ag damage control permits and the fawns were all recovered and put to use as meat on the table. A co-worker roasted some of them whole on the BBQ rotisserie - talk about DELICIOUS!

Of course in this situation "wasting" a tag is not an issue. I was given an handful tags with the request that they be filled ASAP. Putting the "wasted tag" issue aside, many hunters shoot and eat little critters such as squirrels, bunnies, ducks and even turkeys. A spotted fawn outweighs any of these.

Shooting a fawn is an entirely appropriate and ethical thing to do. In the wild fawns are born in excess and 4 footed predators of all sizes feast on them. The fawn is an "unknown." It might grow into a monster buck and live for a decade (or more) or it might not make it through the next winter. From a management and damage control viewpoint it makes perfect sense to kill an animal before it has a chance to eat its way to adult size.

I have also taken many wet does. My intention was to find and kill the fawns after taking the doe but it didn't always happen that way. I have no doubt many of the orphaned fawns starved. This is not the high point of my hunting career and I am not proud of it. But it was an extreme overpopulation situation. All of the deer in the area were runts and it was obvious that something drastic had to be done. More recently Iv'e been asked to shoot deer during and shortly after fawing time but I usually tell the farmers that I'm too busy at my paying job and will be happy to help a little later in the year.

One August evening several years ago I had 6 spotted fawns in the back of my truck, all of them were tagged and dressed out. I pulled over to check the map and make a phone call. The sheriff came along, thinking that I had broken down. His jaw dropped when he saw my cargo! (In Wisconsin it is legal to keep a road killed deer but you need a special permit to posses a road killed spotted fawn.) The sheriff's eyes bugged out when I matter-of-factly told him that I shot the fawns! He didn't know what to do. I said there was no law against possessing spotted fawns that were legally killed and invited him to contact the conservation warden if he needed confirmation on the issue. My calm demeanor must have convinced the sheriff because he said "if you're sure about that.." and let he me go. A few weeks later the same cop called and said he knew of a needy family that would appreciate some venison. I was happy to oblige.

[Bob S]

"Why harvest fawns?

1. Fawns generally represent the most numerous single age class in the population. More fawns typically survive to weaning age than are needed to replace adult mortality.

2. Fawns contribute little or nothing in the way of reproduction the following year. So their harvest has little impact on annual recruitment rates.

3. Fawns are always under-represented in the annual harvest. Given a choice, hunters generally harvest an antlered buck or a doe, instead of a small-bodied fawn.

4. Fawns are the most likely to die during harsh winters. Even during years of high reproductive success, there is no guarantee that a high proportion of the annual fawn crop will survive their first winter and be available for harvest as yearlings."
John Ozoga, former Wildlife Research Biologist for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.

[swamp]

shoot a fawn with spots or a doe with spotted fawns in tow... only if I am starving to death and there are no other options...

i wouldn't want to associate with anyone who did so unless there were some very extraordinary circumstances that dicated that this was necessary...

[ncboman]

So how do you feel about this?
There are some that consider shooting a spotted fawn unethical and others a necessary part of deer management. Where do you come down on ths?

Also - would you sooner shoot a doe with spotted fawns or give her a pass?


I have no problem shooting either the fawn, the mother, and/or preferably both in areas at or over carrying capacity.

Adult doe deer are some of the most adoptive parents of any species and readily take on more fawns if the real mother is killed, so there's no need to worry about Bambi.

I use to pass on them because of the size but since NC has decided to give unlimited antlerless tags, I can once again eat the best venison. :)

[Altjaeger]

I use to pass on them because of the size but since NC has decided to give unlimited antlerless tags, I can once again eat the best venison. :)

Theres nothing anymore wrong with veal of venison than veal of beef! It tastes just fine. :)

[Sabre]

I got lucky this year and drew two doe tags. Last year I only got one. I won't be wasting any doe tags on fawns.

[ncboman]

shoot a fawn with spots or a doe with spotted fawns in tow... only if I am starving to death and there are no other options...

i wouldn't want to associate with anyone who did so unless there were some very extraordinary circumstances that dicated that this was necessary...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%209%2012%2009/ncboman91209opener019.jpg

no till soybeans, what's left 12" tall or less.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%209%207%2009/ncboman9709070.jpg

nearby row beans (different variety)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%209%207%2009/ncboman9709072.jpg

biologists count ... 50+ dpsqm
carrying capacity ... 30-40 dpsqm

shooting fawns and doe in such conditions is the best thing you can do for the herd.

I thought you were from down south Swamp. Guess it's been a while huh? :D

[swamp]

NC... okay.. i will take the bait, hook line and sinker... where is a pic of a spotted fawn that you've shot... what was the live wt or dressed wt of the largest spotted fawn that you've shot... what is the wt of your avg spotted fawn.. live or dressed

[ncboman]

NC... okay.. i will take the bait, hook line and sinker... where is a pic of a spotted fawn that you've shot... what was the live wt or dressed wt of the largest spotted fawn that you've shot... what is the wt of your avg spotted fawn.. live or dressed


:D

no pics.

ncboman ain't goin there. :D

[swamp]

I can certainly understand why you wouldnt want to be shown with a harvested fawn with spots, can you imagine ...............

my guess is that a large fawn with spots would go at the very most 40 lbs live wt.... so that gives u what at most 8 lbs of eatible meat? I don't think it would even be worth the effort... my guess is that a large north carolina whitetail doe would weight in at 120 lb live wt

Realistically I don't think that one would find many spotted fawns by the time hunting season rolls around...

I wouldnt be shooting a doe with fawns in tow spotted or not... i've never lived in a place that had a high deer density

shooting a yearling is one thing --- shooting a this years fawn is a different matter... and in my opinion is a waste

[postoak]

I don't see anything unethical about it. I've never seen a spotted fawn in deer season, and wouldn't want to waste a tag on such a small deer, but Twanger is in a completely different situation.

[Twanger]

This is a deer management issue, not an ethics issue.
If there are too many deer then you should take what you can when you can, subject to the condition that if you're gonna shoot a doe with fawns that the fawns are weaned.
In this area most, of not all all of the fawns have been dropped by the end of June, and the mother weans them 8 weeks later, upon which time they are no longer dependant. Therefore, if your bow season starts after sept. 1 you are pretty safe to shoot a doe. If you want to be extra safe watch the fawns. If they are eating brows then they are weaned and it is safe to shoot the mother without risking the health of the fawn.

These are not my words, but those of game management personnel.

Right now, fawns are running about 50 lb dressed and yield about 25 lb of very tender meat. No different than veal or lamb.

[dave-t.]

And to think I was about to post a pic.:eek:

I agree with Twanger on size and meat. For me 20lbs of meat for $7 tag is not exactly a bad deal. Even in the November gun season, I'll choose the fawn (70-80lbs that time of year) over the doe (110-140lb+) even if the deer are together. I prefer that young one goes home with me.

If I'm shooting one for someone else, they get the big old doe, especially if they are footing the bill for processing.

[pepaw]

Wow. I have problems just shooting does with fawns. I know how cruel coyotes and dogs can be.
But I would never shoot a spotted fawn. Ours are sometimes still spotted in early season. Had to put a couple down that were injured in my life and it still bothers me.

pepaw

[Greybeard]

Heck yes shoot the fawn. Split the carcass down the backbone, then cut it up into 4 pieces, lather on the olive oil with a little garlic, and throw those pieces on the grill. The meat is so tender and tasty. You will especially love the ribs. If you have an abundance of deer, also shoot the doe. This is called meat hunting and population control. Spotted baby bambi sentiment is for PETA and SPCA fans. Oh by the way, the hide will make a pair of the softest thinnest shooting gloves you will ever wear. Greybeard/

[swamp]

This is a deer management issue, not an ethics issue.
If there are too many deer then you should take what you can when you can, subject to the condition that if you're gonna shoot a doe with fawns that the fawns are weaned.
In this area most, of not all all of the fawns have been dropped by the end of June, and the mother weans them 8 weeks later, upon which time they are no longer dependant. Therefore, if your bow season starts after sept. 1 you are pretty safe to shoot a doe. If you want to be extra safe watch the fawns. If they are eating brows then they are weaned and it is safe to shoot the mother without risking the health of the fawn.

These are not my words, but those of game management personnel.

Right now, fawns are running about 50 lb dressed and yield about 25 lb of very tender meat. No different than veal or lamb.

Are you saying a SPOTTED fawn dressed weights 50 lbs... wow... is there a nuclear power plant close by...?

[ncboman]

Md does have a large strain of whitetails. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

I think the one I killed weighed about 10lbs on the hoof. :D

[swamp]

even a mature NC whitetail you can carry like a suitcase i've heard...

[ncboman]

depends, I've killed a couple here over 200lbs on the hoof but they are rare.

Most 'mature' bucks around here go about 170 on the hoof. They are rare too. :D

[swamp]

wasnt aware that any NC deer would go 200 lbs... i figured 120 lbs live wt for a mature NC buck

[ncboman]

I'm in eastern NC.

In the piedmont, mature bucks commonly weigh over 200.

Texas hill country is where the deer are lightweights.

[GF.]

From a management standpoint....

Fawns often die in their fist winter, whether their dams are with them or not. So if you live where the objective is to increase the size of the herd, the best thing to do is to take a fawn and let a mature animal walk. This is especially so in harsher climates.

If you want to reduce the herd, shoot the dam first, and hope the little ones mill around long enough to clean them out as well. Or if you'd like to have more bucks in your area, shoot the dam so she won't chase the buck fawn off later on, and get the doe fawn if you can

There is absolutely no ethical issue in taking fawns, spotted or otherwise. I do understand why a guy with a single tag - or just a couple of tags and a need/desire for more meat - would pass on a skipper. Nothing wrong with that, either. But whether to take one or not is completely neutral, ethically. Meat is meat; dead is dead. Just shoot good.

And, damn, but they're tasty! Nice & easy to bring out of the woods, too :D

[LampLighter]

I ain't gonna do it.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://www.halogenlife.com/shared_assets/images/0003/5789/treehugger.jpg

[Twanger]

Are you saying a SPOTTED fawn dressed weights 50 lbs... wow... is there a nuclear power plant close by...?

I'm guessing, but they are pretty big right now. I'll weigh one if I get the chance. I'm amazed how big these spotted fawns are sometimes. Maybe it's something in the water.

Usually I take the doe out first because the fawns will hang around in the area and we then take them out too... usually within a week or two. Sometimes that day. :D

[Wapitibill]

Twanger - Have you even done my version of a "grand slam" - get the doe and both of the fawns on one hunt? I've done it several times, once with only 2 shots.

[pepaw]

I ain't no PETA fan or softy when it comes to killing varmints or pigs, but I do love whitetail deer. Especially killing healthy, mature does and bucks. But a first year fawn is a waste of my tag and cleaning time.

pepaw

[dave-t.]

I've never shot a double with archery, but the fawns can be called back, quick. Same thing in Nov when the does are pushed around by bucks and the fawn and does get seperated. A couple of bleats and they come right in, and then back in, and back again.;) Probably the most fun I've had with deer calls was messing with young ones like that.

[Wapitibill]

I've heard of several archery "doubles" but have never done it personally. Shooting a triple with a bow would be quite a feat!

This is an interesting thread. There's a bit of passion evident on both sides of this issue. Maybe its a generational or territorial sort of thing. It wasn't so long ago that taking a doe (of any size) was considered "unsportsmanlike." I've heard stories about successful doe hunters in Texas getting beat up or having their vehicles vandalized. Not by treehuggers or PETA freaks but by their fellow hunters!

I live to hunt and I love deer - ALL deer. Each and every deer that I've had the privilege to take is nothing less than a special gift, regardless of its body or antler size (or the lack of antlers.) Dressing out a deer is not a "bother." It is an honor and a task that goes hand in hand with a successful hunt. Dressing out a fawn is quick and easy. As a matter of fact I just did it last night and it took maybe 5 minutes at most.

I'm from an urban background and the only hunter in my family. Fortunately I've never had the "bucks and (maybe) big does are the only deer worth shooting" attitude drilled into my head. The willingness to play an active role in deer management has provided me with hunting opportunities that are well beyond anything I could have dreamed of as a youngster.

Nobody should feel pressured into shooting deer if they really don't want to do it. But, in my opinion, not taking advantage of any opportunity to hunt and shooting any deer, regardless of size (as long as its legal) makes a person less of a hunter at heart. I've caught a few fish in my time but I don't care if I ever catch another one. In other words, I've caught fish but I can hardly be called an avid fisherman. The "real" fishermen in my opinion are they guys that get out every chance they can and catch fish by the bucketful, big and small alike, clean them and put them to good use as food.

[DaveHawk]

Shooting 3 around here is not to difficult, I've done it a number of times. Once if I remember correctly it was the last day of the season and I dropped 3 doe's our buddy NC didn't have any meat in the freezer and I gave all 3 to him. I've dropped mama and her fawns and a buck in one day. It really depends on how much time you have to work on the deer that evening. I butcher my own.

[GF.]

Bill -

That's one hell of a post, bud. Except for the fact that I do mostly catch & release, I couldn't agree more with anything you said. Hunting's not much of a catch& release deal, though... ;)

[ncboman]

in my opinion, not taking advantage of any opportunity to hunt and shooting any deer, regardless of size (as long as its legal) makes a person less of a hunter at heart.

as a man that vacillates from meat hunter to trophy hunter with the crossing of state lines, I can relate to that statement well. :rolleyes:

[dave-t.]

I might change a bit of what Bill stated, but I agree, good post.

I don't have the amount of land to hunt that it would take to be able to go out and take every shot opportunity that I have offered. If I did that, my end of the season hunting trips would be nothing but a squirrel watching trip. Small properties are easy for deer to avoid.

I do go out with a plan for every tag though. I don't plan to shoot a deer unless it matches the critera that I am looking for, I bet that I pass up 70-80% of the shots I'm offered any given season. I do get great satisfaction of predicting it right though, having deer in range and just seeing it happen. My own form of "hunting and release". ;) Heck I passed up a 12yrd shot at the biggest buck I had in archery range last year, no regrets.

With the bow there is no mistaking what you are about to shoot. Small deer or big deer. For me, if the deer isn't over 3.5yr buck, I want an 80lb or under doe. That is my goal that I have set, and I've been pretty rigid about it with the bow.

Rifle is another story for some reason. Twice in my archery career I've walked up to deer shot with my bow and thought "awe shucks". With a rifle and all of that extra reach, it tends to work against me. I can snap shoot a decent looking deer without really inspecting it up close, and that tends to bite me in the end. Heck, I probably would have passed the last three bucks I took with a gun, if I had a bow in my hands and the deer at 15yrds.(8pr, 11pt, 10pt, all 2.5yr olds:() With a rifle I just don't wait fast enough.:confused:

[Twanger]

Twanger - Have you even done my version of a "grand slam" - get the doe and both of the fawns on one hunt? I've done it several times, once with only 2 shots.

Bill - I shot four doubles last season, and a double this season, but my rules don't allow for a good chance at a triple. My rule is that I have to know the first deer is down and where it is before I shoot a second one. I have never had two deer fall in sight, so I have never taken a third, though a few times I've had a third be in range while giving the second deer the requisite 30 minute wait before follow-up.

[DaveHawk]

Walt the 1st time Pete and I hunted the neighborhood I spine shot a doe then her 2 fawns they dropped where I hit them. The home owner came out and said you guys do what you say you will. Pete shot one also. That was the start of a great season. Do you remember how many were taken that year?

[Twanger]

Dave - yes, a total of 89 deer were taken.
I clearly remember hearing Pete tell the story of his first hunt there.
He had six broadhead and after shooting six deer and having more around he climbed down out of his stand, retrieved his arrows, picked the best of them and shot 3 more deer before the night was over.

Those days are long gone! The herd is much smaller and harder to hunt now.

[DaveHawk]

They do tend to get a little jittery after you shoot at them. Like when John from SC and I dropped 8 one day in one back yard and 18 total in 4 days. I have left that place alone of 2 years now. I'll probably hunt it this year again but may hold off till next year.

[Limbhanger]

even a mature NC whitetail you can carry like a suitcase i've heard...

I'm gonna stay out of the spotted fawn thing (though I did pass on three last week) but the North Carolina / suitcase thing... look at my avatar pic - I almost busted a gut loading him in the truck:D

[swamp]

Dave - yes, a total of 89 deer were taken.
I clearly remember hearing Pete tell the story of his first hunt there.
He had six broadhead and after shooting six deer and having more around he climbed down out of his stand, retrieved his arrows, picked the best of them and shot 3 more deer before the night was over.

Those days are long gone! The herd is much smaller and harder to hunt now.

A total of 89 deer were taken by how many hunters in one season if i may ask...

[Twanger]

A total of 89 deer were taken by how many hunters in one season if i may ask...

Probably a dozen or so hunters. In this Maryland county hunters have been allowed to harvest an unlimited number of does per season for quite a few years. It's still not enough to keep the population in check. I'm too selfish to suggest they increase the length of the gun season, but that's what is needed.

[ncboman]

Probably a dozen or so hunters. In this Maryland county hunters have been allowed to harvest an unlimited number of does per season for quite a few years. It's still not enough to keep the population in check. I'm too selfish to suggest they increase the length of the gun season, but that's what is needed.

all that'll do is run more of them into the retreats you get to bowhunt. :D

What they should do is reduced the non res prices and tag bs and create free primitive camping in the deer rich areas. ;)

[Altjaeger]

We had the backstraps and tenderloins from a fawn of the year tonight. It fed my wife, 16 year old and myself with a small serving left over. Absolutely, positively delicious!!!:)

[DaveHawk]

We had the backstraps and tenderloins from a fawn of the year tonight. It fed my wife, 16 year old and myself with a small serving left over. Absolutely, positively delicious!!!:)


Can you say : It don't get any better then that ! LOL

[GF.]

Like my brother said the other day as we watched a doe mulie and her twins amble by about 25 yards away....

"Fawn. It's what's for dinner."

Too bad mulie tags are by draw only these days. Used to be able to snag a resident, either-sex tag for about $20 :(


The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking to plunk as many as I can. Lots easier to get 'em cut, wrapped and frozen without taking a day away from work or family (or hunting!) to get it done....

Just need to have the binos handy so I can spot the flatheaded buttons and shoot their dams and sisters first.