ever use a more powerful rifle just to see..

[rimrock]

Have you ever use a more powerful rifle just to see, if the results improved?
example if you used a 270 win on deer or ELK and didn,t drop them in their tracks, you sure would not be the first guy to swap to a 300 mag or larger thinking it might get better results.
many guys go that route only to find that while it helps in some cases its generally the shot placement more than the caliber that determines the results.
I went from a 30/06 to 340 wby, and then a 375 H&H for a few seasons and those both worked exceptionally well, but the 458 win,ruger #1 and 45/70, lever action marlin, I tried just for an experiment showed no improvement at all over a 340 wby, and in the case of the 458 ruger #1 It weighed more, and both had less range, (not that that was much of a factor as I rarely see ELK past 150 yards in timber), Ive since dropped back to a 35 whelen , and 375H&H carbine on some hunts, finding its just not all that critical as long as you wait for a decent shot and place it well.
its been my experience that all the calibers from 270 up will kill an ELK effectively, and the 35 whelen and up sure get their attention,on bullet impact, to a far greater degree, but don,t kill all that much quicker with good hits, Ive seen ELK spin and run a few yards after taking good hits from a 270 win, and 6.5mm Swedish, that very similar shots from my 375H&H staggered, and dropped faster, but in all cases the ELK dies quickly, and didn,t cover more than a few dozen yards at most.
yeah ! I take alot of verbal abuse from some of my friends, if I unpack the 375H&H, or 458 win ruger #1, but I kid them about getting confused and bringing their squirrel rifles when they bring a 270 win or 257 roberts , so I guess it evens out.
btw the worst internal damage Ive ever seen dressing out an ELK was caused by a 300 wby shooting 165 grain bullets, it dropped an ELK at about 75 yard INSTANTLY, with a head on hit to the base of the throat, the insides poured out

[Wismon]

I'm curious how the .458 Win Mag did. It killed them, obviously, but was there a noticable difference over the smaller calibers? I can't help but suspect that the old buffalo hunters weren't fools...

[Rock Chuck]

About 10 years ago, I put 4 rounds through the lungs of an elk, plus broke the leg on the far side. I used a 270 with a 150 gr Speer bullet. He just stood there for a long time before going down. We found his lungs to be a big bag of jello. Every shot was a killer, but he just didn't want to lie down. I think the 1st one put him into shock. 3 of the 4 were passthroughs and we found 1 under the hide on the far side, the one that broke the shoulder. I'm not convinced that any other caliber would have done much different. A chest full of jello is as fatal with a 270 as it is with a 338.

[Wismon]

Maybe that was just his final act of defiance?

[Pat Hurley]

I Deer hunted for years with a 30-30 and .308 and was very satisfied. I got the opportunity to go to Alberta for Elk and moved up to a .300 Win and was perfectly happy with it, until a Brown Bear hunt in Cold Bay Alaska. I was using 200 grain Nosler Partition at 2950 fps and got my 91/2 ft. squared Bear with one shot to the heart with it standing up facing me at 90 yards. At the shot three more Bears in the 7 to 8 ft. range stood to see what all the noise was about, at that point I felt like I had a pea shooter in my hands. Long story short my party of 4 took two more Bears as close as 20 yards and the lone remaining Bear beat a trail with gusto. I can still hear the roars, screams, cussing, shooting and Bears dieing until this day. A cool headed young guide and four good shooters saved the day. That experience told me that when in Bear country, or dangerous game territory, be armed with the most rifle you can shoot intinctively. I went to a .340 Wby for a Moose hunt in the Farewell Burn on the next trip and have since own and shoot a .338 Lapua and two .358 STA's, a .416 Rem and Rigby, and have taken many animals with all of them. I like a large bullet going fast and two holes in the animal for maximum bleeding. Today I shoot all shapes and sizes rifles, but when in dangerous game country where they bite, claw, gore and chew, I have something large enough to do the job under the worst circumtances. Good shooting.

[Bill Gunn]

I've taken whitetails with a .338 Win Mag, W/210 Noslers @ 2960, and a .458 Win Mag, w/350 Hornady Hollow points @ 2550.

The deer acted exactly the same as they would when hit in the lungs with any other caliber. They both ran a distance (40yds, and 70yds) and died.

I had them drop faster with .444's and 6.5X55's.

I came VERY close falling out of the treestand when I touched off the .458. I sold it soon after I had a triple bypass operation in '98. I didn't want to see my new plumbing laying out on my shooting bench :(

[Herne]

Personally (though this may be due to different circumstances and less crowded hunting), I always wonder why people keep on shooting.

If he has been hit in the chest he is going down, since he is clinically dead, and as Rock Chuck has indicated, all extra shots do is occupy the time from the first shot until he does go down with distraction. Better just to do nothing and watch.

Have I been tempted to use a bigger rifle - no never. Not even when we went to Africa. A single 270 round in the ribs and that was the end - for all of them.

Mind you I don't have this paranoia about speed, and I don't believe in a DRT with H&L, because I don't believe in clinical impossibilities. If I need it DRT, then I'll shoot for CNS, and be certain of DRT. So that makes a difference

[rimrock]

I'm curious how the .458 Win Mag did. It killed them, obviously, but was there a noticeable difference over the smaller calibers? I can't help but suspect that the old buffalo hunters weren't fools...

the 458 win FLATTENED the one ELK I shot on bullet IMPACT, range was about 140 yards, it did a great deal of damage and there was no doubt the 405 Remington bullet devastated the insides, but so does my 340 wby and my 375 H&H occasionally, and Ive seen a 300 wby almost look like it flipped an elk on bullet impact once and the same load in the same rifle, with similar shot placement, the next year hit an ELK that just staggered around for about 45 seconds before it dropped
id have zero problem using a 458 win all the time, but I don,t think its noticeably more effective on elk than a 35 whelen or 338 win is, when using the correct bullets and shot placement.
one of my freinds used a 45/70 with those same bullets at about 1800fpv vs the 2200fps the 458 throws them and it also does a good job.

[dave-t.]

I went the other way. I bought a 300wm first to cover all situaion that I might find myself in, and have been going with smaller cartridges to buy/try/trade ever since then. I think I've got a sensible trio going now.

That 300 has served me very well, but if I was to go back and do it again, I would have got a more typical 30-06 or a .280 if I was looking to be a bit more exotic.

I've only had one hunting shot where the 300 was a notable advantage. Just about any other round would have worked for every other shot.

We'll see what happens on my first elk hunt here in a couple weeks. My hunting partner will have a .270 and is feeling a bit nervous about its effectiveness, I'll have my 300 and ain't worried, but am curious.:rolleyes: Hopefully we'll get to compare our shots and reactions.

[Herne]

Well remember what happened to all my buddies 300WM Partitions in these bigger animals. The 270 was a great deal more effective and well capapble of a pass though at 350 yards.

All your friend has to do is hit them right, sit back and light a cigarette. They'll go down soon enough.

Hell Dave,. we've been taking on these big red stags, and notably these big Devon Irish red stags with 270 for years. Now I accept, and Irish red is not as big as the biggest ellk, of course, but you can still be looking at a 700+lbs liveweight animal (400+ dressed, head and legs off) and the 270 round in the right place knocks then over for a pastime.

Actually I very often took the 6.5x55, and one of those in the ribs was perfectly good enough too. I used to take them on across a small valley -sort of tail end position, but it was a long old shot. Down they'd go.

So it isnt about speed and power, so long as one isn't being outrageous. Its about getting it into the KZ, and the rest is inevitable.

[Sabre]

I started deer hunting with a 30-30. Went up to a 35 Remington, .308, 30-06, 7MM Rem. mag.. None killed deer noticeably better/quicker than the 30-30 I started with so I went back to the 30-30 as my main deer rifle and that's where I intend to stay.

[dave-t.]

The .270 has the reputation as being the lightest suitable cartridge for elk here in the US. But I do have to say, I bought a 300wm because I wanted a .270, but in 30cal.;)

I'll have the 180 hornadies going under 3000fps, so I don't think I'll run into anything that will leave me nervous about my ammo. The rifle itself is a pig though, probably 9lbs+.

[Hi Ball]

I will first say, that anybody hunting in bear country should always consider the larger caliber if at all possible. Bears are faster than a good 1/4 horse at 100 yards and they are just mean to the bone! I was once told by a legend of a bear hunters years ago in Alaska, that going after Brown Bear meant carrying a .375H&H and I took his advice lock stock and barrel.;)

I personally think the .338 Win mag is the best elk caliber on the board! It hits with authority more so than any caliber below it and carrys enough weight for total penetration.:) I sure don't want a .270 Winchester in my hands when confronted by a grizzly bear period.:eek: :D

[swamp]

The .270 has the reputation as being the lightest suitable cartridge for elk here in the US. But I do have to say, I bought a 300wm because I wanted a .270, but in 30cal.;)

I'll have the 180 hornadies going under 3000fps, so I don't think I'll run into anything that will leave me nervous about my ammo. The rifle itself is a pig though, probably 9lbs+.

a 30-06 uses the same case as a 270 Win

[dave-t.]

I know, but a 300wm sends a 180grn bullet out as flat as a 270 w/140grn. If you're willing to put up with the recoil, there isn't a lot of downside to the cartridge. I searched info on everything between 25-06 and 8mm remmag, and settled on it as my "one gun".

[President Obanana]

Lots of wounded elk have gotten away with .270 and 30-06 bullets in them. Although that has to do with shot placement of course, but none of us do it perfectly every time.

[Bushman]

Elk just don't fall over like a bunny rabbit either. I ran into some horse guys out in CO. one year who were on the point of tears because there were blood trails all over the place up high from guys shooting at them from down low. What a waste with guys too lazy to go check out their shot because it meant climbing up the hill. One elk that I shot took two shots and another one took three from a 7mm RM with 160 grain Partitions. I don't use those bullets any more from that rifle, only Trophy Bonded Bearclaws.

[Herne]

I take Hi Balls point entirely about DG.

But if I were to be asked to go shoot an elk, certainly I'd take a 270 over a 6.5. Not lethality, just the passthrough and recovery.

Its all about getting it into the right place, and anything with shot-up lungs takes about 30 secs to die. On its back kicking, or on its legs running, is a matter of luck, but 15 secs to go down and about 30 secs to die is what it will take. 300winnie or 300Wby or270 or 6.5, that you are not going to change.

I am simply minded of those big African antelope, where I was told by a very good American friend that they died real hard,(his words) especially at the ranges we were taking them on out there. Anyway, the upshot was that I was bet a few $ that I couldn't knock over the wildebeeste, nor the oryx, nor the hartebeeste, with a single round apiece. Not with a 270. Well, it didn't cost me any, and we 3 drank a lot of whiskey on that.

In and out in front of the 10th rib, light your cigarette, finish the cigarette, go get your animal - it is about as definite as that.

The problem comes if you cannot guarantee to go in and out in front of that 10th rib, or try something else, equally stupid, deliberately.

[Bushman]

What if the animal just stands there and gives no reaction to just having been shot? That was the case with my 5x6 elk. I picked up his track up high in the snow and followed him down into the more dense black timber in the early afternoon. I saw him bedded up ahead facing away from me. At 60 yards I thought that I could take a high neck shot and break his neck. At the shot he got up (!) like nothing happened and started walking broadside. I couldn't believe it because he acted like I was not even there or any kind of a threat. At 75 yards I held for his lungs and fired again. He stopped and looked around but braced himself. At that point I was doubting that my rifle, a 7mm RM, was still shooting where I thought it should. Then he went over at the third shot and kicked a few times. No animal that I had ever shot acted like that before. The first shot went high and to the right from a wiggle or brush deflection because there was a 7mm hole through the base of his right antler. That must have rung his bell some. Shots two and three were right next to each other right where they should have been.

Back when I was a kid in high school I'd borrowed a .300 WM from a friend of the family for deer hunting. That year I cracked an 8 pointer on the run after the 180 grain Nosler Partition went through a 5.5" diameter elm tree first. (I just measured the section of the tree that I cut down and saved.) I found the bullet in his right chest after it had traveled the deer's full body length. That was a day that I was glad to have been over gunned.

[Herne]

He's still dead Bushman. Standing or running, sitting or lying, the damage has been done, he;s dead and brassing off more is only going to make an animal that is not running, more likely to flee if it can.

I admit, when I started I was like htis - had to watch the animal down, don't take your eyes off it, ready to shoot again.

I quickly learned 4 lessons.

One was to do with meat hunting - you don't get paid for shot up carcases so make that first round count. But the same rule applies to trophies - you don't get a second chance, so make the first one good.(unless as your case you stun him first, but thats quite rare.)

Second was that if you have hit him and he runs, the chances are that extra follow up rounds are unlikely to be either accurate or directed at a lethal spot.

Third was to trust that round. Making a living, if the first round was good, you could forget about that beast, and be looking for the next. Its going to go down guaranteed - and we all know that, but once you actually beleive that, then additional rounds are pointless.

Finally, if one is to be certain of a good hit, then you have to see strike. and because of that, milder calibres and a hold that controls flip is vital. How is one to know what has gone on or where in heavy cover the beast has gone if you are looking at the sky through a scope?

and, with respect, your tale makes the point.

1. You didn't make the first round count.

but allowing the exception -

2. Was it the second round that killed him and put him down, or the third. The second of course - if the two were side by side, the third round went through mush and contributed nothing.

As for the tree and the lengthways shot - is that one we want to discuss further?

[Bushman]

Herne, elk hunters as a rule do tend to carry rifles for rather large chamberings so being able to see a bullet strike through the scope is a pretty rare occurrence. That year I flew out to go elk hunting and only the baggage handler knew what kind of care my rifle got on the flight out there. I didn't check the zero when I got out there, so the first shots that I fired that year were at that elk. I'm a reasonably good off hand shot and I did have time to wrap myself into the sling, but I had to shoot from a standing position because of the low brush. When nothing happened that I was expecting after the first and second shot, not wanting that animal to be possibly lost to another hunter, #3 seemed pretty logical at the time.

I was very surprised when I field dressed my last bull hit through both lungs. No mush like on a deer, just a $.50 piece size hole through both lungs. He went down sure enough, but not until he tried to run off with all the cows he was with. Tough animals.

As to the deer running behind the tree, he was just having a really bad day and I should have probably bought a lottery ticket that day too.

[Herne]

Bushman - I think you were lucky you half knocked him out with the first round!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure you could draw too many lessons from that one. :D

A lot of these animals don't want ot go down.

I think I have told the story of Trev who shot 20 in a week. The fist 10 or 11 went down on the spot. Wow - what a gun. Varberger 300Win. And the next 9 ran like demons.

I've shot loads of fallow - not huge deer.Little bigger than most whitetails, probably smaller than the northern ones. Anyway 270 275R 6.5 most down on the spot. Then I had to shoot a big buck in the rut - one a client had skimmed in a deer park. He did nothing. No reaction at all - to the point I almost believed I'd missed, except I's seen strike. (Even so the doubts were creeping in) He trots off with his girls, head up (not normal H&L behaviour). and all of a sudden he just went "Oh god I'm dead" and fell over. And he was dead as a doornail, entry just behind the shoulder. (And he was shot on the run, and most deer shot on the run tumble first time)

I've had these reds go down on the spot, and had them run. The point is that dead is damage to H&L. Reaction after that is something else and quite unpredictable. Because the same is true when some halfwit takes a 300winnie or a 375 H&H out, - the reaction is the same. You couldn't tell the animal was shot with a 7Rem or a 243. And that applies to big PDs or little roe.

I know I'll never convince the US audience who have, in the main, a fascination with big calibres and speed, but one in the ribs and it makes hardly any difference.

Judas, look at my wildebeeste -270/150 and thats a bloody big animal. 350 yards. Ran 70 yards and down. Trev and his 300Winnie. Wildebeeste at 300 od. Ran more than 150 yards. (and it was properly hit in the chest, no question of that)

There is NO consistency, and bigger is not deader quicker. Placing is deader quicker - that's almost all that counts, as long as someone doesn't use something really silly..

honestly bushman, i never worried about what i had to shoot with waht Pere David to Muntjac. Made no differece. 270, or 6.5. In and out in front of the 10th rib, one round, dead.

Follow up rounds - I've missed more than I've fired as follow up (because of obstructions or some such silly mistake). In fact I can't remember when I last fired a second round at a deer that was already hit (by me as opposed to a client).

If you have seen strike (crucial) then you KNOW its in the chest and its game over. You also know if its NOT in the chest and fun and games start. for my money, that knowledge is worth a lot more than the imagined advantage of "more horsepower".

Look at elephants with the big calibres - weight for weight the elephant shooter is way undergunned by comparison with us, and yet the majority of elephants that I know of shot by Dad went down to one shot. Placing.

[GF.]

The guy grew up watching his dad shoot elephants and some people wonder why we're all so happy to listen to his opinion..... :confused:

:D

Funny, though... I don't know how many articles I've read in the various US hunting & shooting magazines that encourage the reader to shoot, shoot & shoot again for as long as they animal is on its feet and visible.

Probably makes their ammo advertisers happy..... :rolleyes:


I know you're not too keen on the idea, Herne, but I do think this is why becoming a bowhunter/muzzleloader has made me a bit better, more patient hunter overall.... My first-ever firearms season, I was 'prepared' (so I thought) to shoot out to a solid quarter mile, and follow up (via trigger work) as needed. :rolleyes: Last week I had a 65-yard 'shot' (but no tag!) on a really nice-looking buck mule deer. Scoped rifle? One easy shot, dead deer, no drama. Iron sights.... How wise would it be to choose a point of aim through the binoculars and just hold at 4:00 relative to his nose, hoping he didn't move between when I took the binos off of him and got the sights back on????

Probably not, eh? I suppose some would attempt it with a repeater, banking on follow-up hits (well, OK, shots), but the muzzleloader? :eek:

Bowhunting, though - sure shot, close range, give him 20 minutes to figure things out :cool:

[Bushman]

GF, influenced as I was by the tracking them down stories of the Benoit's back in the '70's, my shoot 'em up 742 carbine had a Williams peep sight on it for a time. It took me a few years to realize that deer had four feet and that I only had two and anything that I was able to track down was getting killed by some other hunter up ahead of me. The peep flat out didn't work when the deer were most active at dawn and dusk when I was on a stand.

Good post Herne and I've come to realize the same thing over time. I've killed deer with a .22, slug, .30-30, 7mm-08, .308, .30-06, 7mm RM, .300 WM and arrows and it never seemed to make much difference. In fact that early .30-30 deer went down quicker than most of them since then probably because those bullets were tailored to expand best in deer size animals.

I got to thinking about the difference in lung tissue too. It probably was not that my elk's lung tissue was any stronger than a deer's lung tissue. It was because the much larger thoracic cavity of an elk was better able to dissipate the temporary stretch cavity caused by a bullet. Lots of times I've found mush for lungs inside a deer with the same bullet placement. Taking it a step further, I am reminded of the snowshoe hare that I shot using a .308 with a 180 grain round nose Core-Lokt. Certainly not a bullet intended for small animals, but that rabbit nearly exploded due to it's smaller size not being able to contain the temporary stretch cavity.

[Herne]

Gents I don't want to get into a bowhunting critique, and as you all know, I don't know squat about the detail of bowhunting. But I bet, any deer hit by an arrow properly in the chest, is just as dead as one hit by a rifle- and I also bet that in many cases its down just as quick.

How much energy in an arrow? Not much. Again, its placing. I am certain that if one can get the shot into the chest, it doesn't take much to put anything down.

This is why I'm so fanatical about high grade optics that really work, light or dark, up to the last legal moment (wherever one is), and why I'm so keen on the sticks.

With my back against a tree, or sitting, or kneeling, and with the gun in the sticks, or even standing, (and despite what people say, you can get a first AIMED shot off very quickly) one can be certain of shooting to a 2" group at 100, and not a lot more than that at 300. Then you have the gun held in the sticks, so flip isn't a problem. So, if you can decide which hair ( :) )you want to hit, big calibres don't come into it.

Some of you have the video- and there it is, a little roe doe standing in a field (half the size of a whitetail (LA knows the field because he got a crutchful of water crawling across it), at what 150 yards. Standing off the sticks, no tree to lean on, the bullet is skimmed with a very tight margin over a gate, and straight into the atlas joint, high neck - 2" target. That's not good shooting, that's just using aids to be effective when you need to be.

Like I say, if you can be confident of placing like that, up to a point, calibres and additional rounds don't come into it.

BUT, if you are trying to shoot freehand, in a x-wind, swaying all over with the front of the gun unsupported, then you know its very difficult to be sure of your placing, and it's very difficult to control flip - and if you must fire an aimed second shot, flip has to be controlled. So its one of these circular arguments. If you use the sticks and control flip you won't need the second shot.......

(Oh and Dad was a very good hunter of DG. Very brave, and very calm even under enormous pressure. As a young'un, you don't realise just how brave and how steady of course. He always said, make that first round count. That's where I learned the lesson and it applies as much to rabbits and deer as DG - if you want to be sure of eating rabbit that night of course).

[Wapitibill]

I was anxious to draw first blood with my new .45-70 1874 Sharps buffalo rifle so I took advantage of the opportunity to shoot a 4X5 bull elk at my rich land-shark (real estate developer) buddy's game farm. This is not my idea of a proper hunting experience but the fence was coming down so the land could be subdivided and sold off. All of the animals had to be killed and he was selling the elk off cheap so why not?

The "hunt" was not as easy as you might think. It took several hours of searching but I finally found "my" bull and was able to sneak up to within 100 yards of him. The Sharps weighs 12 pounds and is equipped with a vernier tang peep sight and double set triggers. It's not the kind of rifle that you'd want to tote around the mountains but let me tell you that the Sharps is one sweet-shooting rifle. The old-time buffalo hunters knew what they were doing when they picked the Sharps as their tool of choice. But I digress...

The bull was standing still, directly broadside. I took careful aim, cocked the big hammer and squeezed the set trigger. A light tap on the main trigger sent the 405 grain bullet on its way. The bull just stood there, didn't even flinch. What happed? Did I miss? I reloaded and took another shot. Same thing, he still showed no signs of a hit. One more shot and then his head started to droop down a little. I was worried. He was hit but where and how many times? How could I blow such an easy shot, not just once but 3 times? So I put another cartridge into the chamber and walked up to within a few feet of the bull. I poked him behind the shoulder with the barrel and fired the 4th shot.

The bull wobbled around for a few seconds and then - ever so slowly - he simply tipped over. Then he gave out a few weak kicks and his life was over. While dressing him out I found 4 half-inch holes in his heart. All four shots hit their mark - the bull was as good as dead after the first slug struck home. It was only a matter of waiting 30 seconds. Herne's advice to relax and light a cigarette would have been spot-on had I been a smoker. It was strange not to see a reaction to the shots.

I've often daydreamed of being a professional buffalo or market hunter in the Old West. It's a good thing that I wasn't "back in the day" because I probably would have been sacked for needlessly wasting precious ammunition.

I killed 3 more elk on the game farm with .338 WM. One of them flipped over backwards and fell to the ground stone dead and the 2 others were dead within a minute.

Without a doubt my .270 would have done the job just as well. Under the circumstances a .243 would have probably worked too. But these were not wild elk. They led easy lives. The only challenge any of them probably faced was outrunning their herdmates to the feeding trough.

I am not trying to start an argument with Herne. He obviously knows his business! On the old Huntamerica board Herne described elk as "nothing special" and "just another large herding deer" and I believe he's essentially correct on that issue. But there must be something more to it. The wild elk that I shot were far more tenacious and didn't give up their lives nearly as easily as their game farm raised relatives. Maybe its the rough terrain, incessant predation and severe weather conditions that elk have to live under. Whatever the reason, wild elk are tough customers I prefer to hunt them with my .338 WM even though a lesser caliber would probably kill them just as well under most circumstances.

[Herne]

Probably (possibly) Bill the farmed deer were much more habituated to humans, and hte wild ones much more prone to flight. (See my fallow buck story)

But WGR, my point was really that once fatally hit, he's fatally hit, whatever the calibre and what he does then is not generally related to calibre, and on that we seem to agree.

Bushman also has a point which is that the larger the deer the better the absorbtion factor - and I wouldn't doubt that. But again it comes down to a fatal strike, and how fast he pumps claret out to starve the brain.

For my money, the BEST reaction is head down fast run. Hes squirting blood everywhere (internally or externally) and he's burning oxygen. Fast run = short run and over.

The do nothings or do something slowly are the awkward ones because although they are dead men walking (quite literally) they have a reserve of oxygen, and they are not using it so fast. So they are not going to go down very quickly - mostly another shot doesn't prod them into doing anything, and you can't shoot them deader because they are already fatally hit. like Bills bull.

I think too that as you go bigger there is an element of self fulfilling prophecy. They do generally react slower, and so give an impression of toughness. Like our reds in Devon with steep hills. Oh they run for miles! Cobblers. 5-10 secs is all they run for like everything else. But they have steep hills to help them and bigger longer legs, so of course they can cover more ground.

At the end of the day people must use what they think is best for them. My argument is that bigger is not deader, and there are more important factors than speed and bullet weight to be considered when makings one's choice. but, you do need as you go up, (some) more horsepower because you do need more bullet weight to get adequate penetration - just because its a bigger animal. Even so - smash his heart and 30 second is all he has before shutdown - just like anything else.

But as always there are exceptions. Some will stay on their feet for the full heart wrenching 30 secs. Some conveniently tip over and kick. The difference (often ascribed to calibre), is only a matter of where in the 30 sec the animal lost its balance. Sometimes they just trip in fading eyesight!)

Nice to hear from you Bill. - M.

[Bushman]

A few years back one of the national parks was needing to trim down their buffalo herd, so they got some government sharpshooters together and culled some. These guys were shooting side by side so the conditions were perfect for a comparison between a .30-06 and a .375 H&H Magnum. When broadside lung shot buffalos were shot with the .30-06 they ran X amount of yards before going down. When buffalos were shot with the .375 H&H Magnum, they also ran that same X number of yards. The only difference that the shooters could observe was that the .375 H&H Magnum hit buffalos left a larger blood trail than the .30-06 shot buffalos.

This would seem to be consistent with what a lot of you larger bullet diameter shooters have been saying about the blood trails from the .33's and larger cartridges.

[rimrock]

A few years back one of the national parks was needing to trim down their buffalo herd, so they got some government sharpshooters together and culled some. These guys were shooting side by side so the conditions were perfect for a comparison between a .30-06 and a .375 H&H Magnum. When broadside lung shot buffalos were shot with the .30-06 they ran X amount of yards before going down. When buffalos were shot with the .375 H&H Magnum, they also ran that same X number of yards. The only difference that the shooters could observe was that the .375 H&H Magnum hit buffalos left a larger blood trail than the .30-06 shot buffalos.

This would seem to be consistent with what a lot of you larger bullet diameter shooters have been saying about the blood trails from the .33's and larger cartridges.


that and a markedly more pronounce reaction when the bullet impacts with the 33cal and larger bullets in SOME CASES, seems to be the main difference, in my experience now that PREMIUM bullets, or at least bullets that don,t turn to glitter are fairly common in the smaller calibers, Ive had excellent results with SPEER and HORNADY 225-300 grain bullets in the 33-375 calibers, and 150 grain SPEER and HORNADY in the 270 and 190grain and 200 grain SPEER and HORNADY in the 30 cals

[wolfhunter]

some of you guys like cannons some like the liter cal. and say shootem were it counts and watchem tip over I say you have to shootem were it counts ,but you cant stop a mad griz with a 270. The 270 is a really nice deer rifle. Are you going to shoot a 360 class bull elk in the as with a 270 not if you are an sportsman but if you hunt elk with a 375hh you can! I like the larger cal.

[wolfhunter]

some of you guys like cannons some like the liter cal. and say shootem were it counts and watchem tip over I say you have to shootem were it counts ,but you cant stop a mad griz with a 270. The 270 is a really nice deer rifle. Are you going to shoot a 360 class bull elk in the ass with a 270 not if you are an sportsman but if you hunt elk with a 375hh you can! I like the larger cal.

[Chuck S]

I've hunted and shot game with everything from the .243 up through the 300 Weatherby and a good hit is a good hit just as bad is bad. I actually preferred the Weatherby for far out shooting more than hunting and the 257 Roberts BLR for hunting. These days I sort of combined the two and shoot a short 30-06 that weighs in very light at around 8 lbs 11 oz with scope, sling and five rounds in it. It's a carbine but deadly accurate and with the right light bullet shoots very flat with more than enough authority for Pronghorn or Mulies where the majority of my longer shots occur. With a heavier bullet it will usually shoot through an elk even if the angles not quite right. Two peculiar shots were a large northern whitetail shot into the lower to mid neck at nearly point blank range and which did it's dangedest, stayed on it's feet and tried to get away in a thicket and that was with a 180 gn Core Lokt out of a .308. One through the shoulder crumpled him but he died slowly. The other was another large whitetail which was shot point black through the chest with the .243 just as his front feet left the ground to jump a rock outcrop. He died in midair and wasn't even twitching when he came down.

[Hi Ball]

Well ladies & gents, I must convess I am the first to grab the bigger bore rifles when it comes to hunting critters larger than whitetail deer mind you. I once took a "dik dik" in Africa with a .416 Rem. mag in pouring down rain. I could barely see it's horns some 60 yards away through the bino's. I had intended to use the .338 Win mag I had but it got damaged earliar, so the big bore got the call. I hit that little critter with a 350 grain bullet and the PH picked it up by the horns later, there was enough left of the animal to make a mount and that was it. One thing about using the larger calibers, if you hit the vitals most of the time you do not need a second shot.

[Hi Ball]

Now I will finish what I started in the above post! I would never again hunt elk with a .270 caliber again, I said to myself years ago. I lost a nice bull but it was NOT the .270 cal rifle's vault, let me point that out to all of you ok. I was using a plan jane 130 grn factory Winchester bullet back then. Now todays bullets have gotten much better and I have no doubt in my mind, that a 160 grn Nosler Partition bullet would get the job done on any elk on the planet. Also many of those newer copper bullets like Northfork, so don't think your .270 Winchester caliber rifle is under the limit, it is certainly not.

[Chuck S]

Just a prelim report on bullet tests out of my 06:

The 130 gn Barnes (approx 3000 fps) penetrates 7 milk jugs, completely destroying the first two, and then the damge gets successfully less as it goes through the remaining five. Perfect mushroomed bullet recovered of about 45 caliber.:cool1:

The 150 gn CT Gold (approx 2700) did like wise and was very similar with the destruction.
Perfectly mushroomed bullet recovered with likely some minor loss of lead.

The 125 gn Sierra destroys the first two and badly damaged the third with copper shrapnel lodged in the forth.:flute:

The 180 gn Spire Point federal (2700) blew apart the first two and after hitting the forth, angled off into the dirt. Probably less than 120 gns remained with the lead core popped out of the copper.:frown:

Ran out of water filled milk bottles at that point. Sure glad I have a lot of those Barnes loaded as they are nice with the recoil and will do the job of a much heavier bullet made in the classical way. I now have another batch of milk bottles filled and will soon report on these with that 180 gn spire point Federal factory load as well as with some 125 gn Nosler Ballistic Tips I'll be loading and some other bullets I'm getting from friends - all in 06 caliber.:ciao:

I posted this here as I have decided that selecting your bullet is as important as caliber and with todays offerings we can go considerably lighter and get the same results as we did years back. :cool1:

[Bushman]

Chuck, you have a lot more choices for that .30-06 than I did with my 7mm-08. I assume that the 130 grain Barnes was a TSX or was it a TTSX with the Delron tip? I went to that TSX 140 grain out of that 7mm-08 and shot some deer with it, but I don't think that I'm driving it fast enough to properly expand it on deer size animals. I did observe much less bruising of the carcass verses a lead core bullet, but the blood trails were not as heavy and they start later in my experience. Case in point I shot a buck in the heart with a Hornady 139 grain Interlock and the heart strained through my fingers. I shot another one in the heart with that TSX and there was a quarter size hole in his heart and no blood on the snow for 20 yards. This year I'm back using Hornady SST ammunition which is the Interlock with a Nylon tip as they stopped loading the standard Interlock in the 7mm-08. My son shoots a .30-06 and likes the 165 grain Hornady Custom with the Interlock and that is my deer bullet of choice for my .308 as well.

[Chuck S]

I used the tipped bullets and am impressed at the velocity I was working with. Soon will reload some to lower velocities plus get a crono working to check velocities and see what happens to get an idea at what hitting an animal at 300 yds or even further might do. Anything close will certain get a bigger than quarter sized hole blown through it as it stands now with these bullets. I did use some Hornady SSTs one year and they did blow a sizable chunk of meat away while passing through an antelope as did the Nosler 125 gn ballistic tips. I've heard that Nosler is now making their Ballistic tips a bit stouter now and have a new box to reload and test soon.