Do you pass up legal animals?

[dave-t.]

Going on my first elk hunt in a couple of days, my cousin told me after his scouting this past weekend that the elk are there in our unit, in northern NM.

Do you hold out for a "big elk", or do you take the first legal animal?

I've never hunted in the west before, and have no frame of reference, but the scouting report was as good as we could hope for.

I was planning on shooting as soon as I had a good opportunity at a legal bull, knowing that I'm not going to be hunting out west very often. But that makes me wonder if holding out for a few days may not be such a bad idea, in hopes of finding one of those "biggen's" New Mexico is known for.

Any advice?

[GF.]

The ultimate tough call, no?

I'll tell you this - the year I shot my Elk at noon on the opener was probably the least enjoyable season I've ever had. I was out there for something like 12 days and the hunting was over the day after I flew in. A week later, I went up the hill with Little Bro for the second weekend of the season and enjoyed spending some time with him, but it's a whole different kind of a hike when you leave your rifle in camp.

But centerfire seasons can be different - especially if there is half-decent motorized vehicle access.

If things get rowdy on opening day, and you have a feeling there will be plenty of people around all week, then yeah, I'd probably dump the first legal bull I saw - especially if it were a 5 or better. If the limited number of tags issued has things looking pretty low-key, then I'd probably stay picky until I was down to my last 2 days and just enjoy the time on the hill. Especially if somebody else in the party had already scored.

Don't forget - hauling out an Elk is no picnic. I hope you get to experience that, but I hope you don't have to haul out two in the final weekend of your trip.

[Bushman]

Dave, I'm no elk expert having only hunted public land in CO. several times, but I would say that for a first elk hunt, I wouldn't be that picky about your first bull. We would have as many as twelve guys in our camp, but 8-9 of them stayed in town so it wasn't that crowded. Generally only two of us had bull tags because the other guys were very content to shoot cows for the meat. We all dream of one of those 6x6 herd bulls like grace the cover of Outdoor Life and the like, but the real world where we hunted was younger rag bulls. I think that you need to get the hang of your specific area. If it is wall to wall elk with little hunting pressure than sure, hold off for what you want. Being a Midwest deer hunter, the thing about elk that I didn't realize is that they can be here today and gone tomorrow. They don't like people and will migrate a long way from pressure and big snow. Unlike deer hunting, elk hunting can get better day to day instead of worse like deer hunting usually is as the season goes on. Elk can move a lot at night, so you can have "fresh" animals every morning...or the down side of that is that "your" animals today can be a mountain or two away tomorrow.

I'd watch the weather as you can get snowed in, but that will move the elk too. Horse guys if they are in the area, will move elk out ahead of them and if you get between where the horse guys come from and the elk want to go to escape you can get some opportunities. The terrain makes a lot of difference too. You can't get into too good enough shape to go elk hunting. I remember one cross country day trip that was so rough that when I heard an elk coming I said to myself, "Please don't be a bull because nothing except a helicopter is going to be able to get you out of here." It was a cow thankfully.

I was usually apologetic to the other guys in camp because when they had all filled up with cows, I'd be still out there looking for a bull, so at that point any legal bull was going down. I think that in your case for a first hunt, I would not be trophy hunting too much. Any bull elk looks like a Holstein lying there when you are used to deer size animals...and you still need to get the thing out of there in very thin air over steep terrain in sometimes high temperatures that can ruin your meat. If both you and your cousin have bull tags, I'd agree to split the meat. That way you could have elk to eat if one of you tags a smaller one, then team up and go looking for a big one together. Driving elk out of the thicker day cover like deer works pretty well if you have a guy to cut them off. In my experience they are easier to still hunt than a deer is. Bottom line is that the hardest part about elk hunting is getting to the place where there is one.

[Perry]

Its a tough call, for me it would be a gametime decision, if im seeing ALOT of activity the first day, im going to try to hold out for a good bull. If im out there, for 3-4 days without so much as a call from a healthy soundin bull, the first legal I see will probably get the tag.

[dave-t.]

We have been going at this with the idea that the first legal bull available would be shot. No idea yet who the first shooter is though, or if we will even be hunting together or splitting up, etc.

He sounded awefully proud of his special canyon though after the scouting trip over the weekend. Elk sign, elk heard, and elk spotted.

My cousin bow hunts this area, so he didn't draw a rifle tag, but me and his half brother did draw rifle tags, both of us are new to elk. The cousin will be there to 'guide' 3-4 days out of the 6 day season.

It's beginning to sound like the best time to shoot an elk is when you have the most help to get one out.:o

I'll be tickled to get anything really, but the idea of killing time for the last 5 days of the trip after a succefull first day kind of bothers me. By all accounts I'd be very lucky to have such a problem.;)

[GF.]

It's beginning to sound like the best time to shoot an elk is when you have the most help to get one out.:o

I'll be tickled to get anything really, but the idea of killing time for the last 5 days of the trip after a succefull first day kind of bothers me. By all accounts I'd be very lucky to have such a problem.;)

Truer words never spoke.... :D


You might look into the local success rates, too. If they're in the 20s, good hunting. Low teens, start shooting. Being guided into somebody's poach hole, though.... That's a sweet deal. Your cousin oughtta have a pretty good idea of what's likely to be back there, but honestly, very few bulls live to be 5X5s on public land unless the access is pretty near brutal. LATH's bull is not one that very many of us would have the nerve to pass up, seeing as that one is in some respects a bigger-racked animal than most of the herd bulls that I've seen in our little patch o' wilderness area.

Besides, a rank old herd bull isn't gonna be near as tasty as something younger that hasn't been running himself ragged.

[Rock Chuck]

I'll take the 1st legal one, but I've shot a lot of elk over the years. Also, I don't have to pay for a non-resident license and tag. I'm only a couple of hours from the hunting. Besides, if I fill my tag the 1st day, I still have tags in my pocket for deer, bear, and wolf.

[rimrock]

after nearly 40 years of hunting ELK, Id suggest you think about this,yes Ive passed on dozens of legal elk,but on your first couple hunts (especially if your young or its likely to be a rare treat to hunt elk,) ANY legal elk is a TROPHY and youll be foolish in my opinion to pass on any legal elk on public land, if its private land with low pressure Id spend the first 1/3rd of your hunt time holding out for something decent over legal minimums but after that Id drop the first legal elk you see!
but after you've killed a dozen, or two dozen or more in the last 40 years and you've got some age and wisdom, and your back vertebra remember those canyons you start to look at where the elk is, and how difficult packing him out will be unless its an really exceptional specimen, before you drop some elk far back in a deep canyon miles from roads.
packing several hundred pounds of elk out of some deep canyon, or even out over rolling hills in brush country without mules or a truck is HARD WORK, and the dry ice required , and the trips to get it,to keep it frozen over days gets expensive

[Hi Ball]

Dave-T. I have passed up several good bull elk in the past on hunts. The simple reason, was that I was after the biggest racked bull in the area period. I passed up several 4 x 5's, 5 x 6's and a couple of small rack 6 x 6's. I am not sorry that I did so.

Now the reason I say that is because I got to see the biggest racked elk a couple of days later, biggest I have ever seen in the wild. It was huge in body size and we estamated the elk to go 375 or better and that is outstanding when your hunting public ground. I will Never forget that day and that bull elk and just to see him trot off with the herd after we got busted was a sight to behold. The rest of the herd, some 70 to 80 elk were running full steam ahead for the dark timber, while this magnificant specieman could only trot he was so huge.

I would not shoot just any elk the first day or two, but that is going to be your call and yours only. I was hunting for a grand elk rack that day but I am not sorry I didn't harvest my dreams. It just kept me going back for more and that is never a bad situation. Good Luck!;) :)

[captchee]

I have hunted elk most all my life . So maybe for us here in the west elk hunting can be just another hunt .
Through the years though , filling a tag has become less and less of a concern and passing up given bulls is not an issue .
But if I was on a once or twice in a lifetime hunt , I would have to say I would have to weigh my options .
One thing about elk is that just because they are there now , doesn’t mean they will be there tomorrow.
Just because you get in the thick of them the first morning doesn’t mean it will be that way every day .
So I would say its going to be hard but put your trust in the person going out with you that has experience in that area .
If the case is that he doesn’t have that experience during that time of year , then you might want to seriously consider the chance that the first one you see , might just be the last one you see .
Some of my most memorable hunts were when I didn’t even fill a tag but was there to help someone else , see their face and witness their hunts

But yep , defiantly a hard choice . But you will decide maybe not tell the last second , but you will deside lol
Good luck on your hunt

[Smokey]

You have a lot of good advice. Elk are very tricky in their movements, You my see lots of sign and elk one day in an area and the next morning there will not be an elk within seven miles. That distance is just a leisurely stroll for an elk, In the west you do not have animal populations evenly spread out as in the mid-west and east. You can go a couple days hunting an area and on the third day see lots of game where previously there were none.

As stated any elk is a trophy. These are big animals and a small bull will impress you. One note that has surprised me is their ability to move through just about anything and not make any noise. They are big but very quiet when moving.

NM is a great place to hunt if not one of the best. Shot my biggest elk there years ago and the hunting there is better now. I'm sure you will do well if you put forth the effort. I've always felt elk are much easier to get than whitetail or mule deer. Getting them to the truck is another story.

[GF.]

I've always felt elk are much easier to get than whitetail or mule deer.

Man, I wish I had your luck with 'em! Suffice to say that I've not found that to be the case..... especially since CO went to the 4-point minimum.

True enough, I've seen at least 5 bulls of 5X5 or better in about as many seasons of chasing them - all would have been in easy rifle range and only one would even have been a stretch for the irons on my muzzleloader, but that always happens when you're carrying a bow :D

Didn't see any big dudes this season with a cow-only tag, but the only other year I didn't see a very respectable, legal bull was the year I had a BP tag for one:rolleyes:

So I don't know... maybe they are easier than mule deer - I'd disagree with you entirely on the whitetails - but at least I've managed to put an arrow through the right parts of a buck mulie, and I don't know how many doe tags I could have filled in the bow season this year, had I been willing to shoot on my 'long' pin, which is zeroed for about 38 yards.

But 'easier' or not, you usually can't hunt whitetails in the places Elk live, and you sure can't hunt Elk around here..... Being in Elk country is enough to make any trip worth the price of admission, so everything else is a real gift!

[Greybeard]

As stated above, any elk is a good elk. We generally take the first legal elk we see. Last year I shot a spike. The year before a very good 6 x 6. Gutting, skinning, quartering and then getting the quarters of that spike to the pickup was all I could do last year. More than I should have at 70 years. I hunt by myself. I probably hurt my back as I had to have spinal surgery just before Christmas. But I'm up and around this year and made it through deer season ok (but didn't shoot anything). Elk season starts the 31st and I will be out. I've got several spots scouted that look good if the elk stay around. But of course they move around, rarely staying in one area for more than 3 days. Except some old wiley bulls will hunker down in one rough spot and stay there all season unless someone busts them out. Hunting elk is my favorite sport although trying to get a good mulie is right up there also. This year I am passing on anything other than a branch antlered bull because of my back and if I'm lucky I'm going to get some help getting him out. Good luck on your elk hunt :D. Greybeard/

[GF.]

He oughtta be back pretty soon, no?

[Rock Chuck]

Gutting, skinning, quartering and then getting the quarters of that spike to the pickup was all I could do last year.
Haven't gutted one in 10 years, since I tried it gutless. That's just more work for nothing and it leaves a big mess to work in. If you have a horse or can get an atv to the corpse, gutting and quartering is worth it, but for any other way of packing, it's much easier to just remove the quarters and the rest of the meat without gutting.

[GF.]

So does that make you a 'gutless wonder', I wonder? :D

I've heard abut something called 'shock shortening' of meat.... Some say that if you cool meat too rapidly - and especially if you do this off the bone, I'd guess - the muscle fibers will shrink up and stay there, resulting in tougher cuts of meat.

Anybody seen this? It might explain why the tenderloins on my deer aren't usually all that tender....:rolleyes:

Anyway, the best argument I can think of for gutting is that there's no heffin' way that I'm going to be able to hang the spinal column of an Elk in a tree if I have to hoist all the internals. We usually end up leaving quarters and the backbone hung up overnight - and hopefully out of reach of the bear - so that we can come back to bone things out and pack it off the next day.

Butchering out the backstraps and tenderloins on the day of the kill would allow the gutless approach (and give the bear a big pile of eats to work on instead of the quarters!) but I'd sure hate to do anything to toughen up the very best cuts on the whole critter....

Gotta be a lot easier to roll the gutpile down the hill and away from the good stuff if it's all still contained inside the body cavity, though. On the other hand, I really like to do the post-mortem , and there's no other way to get the heart, liver and any other internals you like to eat....

[Bushman]

GF, I never heard that before about cooling down an animal quickly. Up here in the frozen north, they cool themselves down real fast like it or not. Actually I am thinking about my old packing house days where the cow would get knocked in the head, down the line and into the cooler probably 15 minutes later. They hung there for over a week before they were turned into meat.

Out hunting we always kept the wrapper on the deer or the elk because I always preferred my venison without the sand and gravel. Cutting warm fresh meat is tougher than after it has cooled in my experience. Also knowing where to cut to make a cut of meat resemble a cut of meat is important. I've seen well meaning friends turn a deer into 80 pounds of trimmings.

[Rock Chuck]

the theory is that meat needs to be left on the bone until the rigor mortise subsides. I don' know if there's anything to it or not. If I have a corpse that needs to be moved 2 miles on my back, the meat is coming off the bone. If it's tough, it gets pressure cooked or ground.

[Greybeard]

I've read about the gutless method but I guess I am too old fashioned to have tried it. On some hunts up in B.C. they don't gut elk or moose but simply cut out the outer loins, front quarters and hind quarters, leaving a buch of meat behind. Greybeard/

[Rock Chuck]

We take all the meat. If we don't have far to pack it, we leave the long bones in the legs because it's handier. On longer hikes, they all stay behind. After all the meat's off, I use a saw to whack 2 ribs so I can get the heart. Last I slit the belly & let the gut roll out to make it easier to get the tenderloins. A cut along each side of the back makes them easy to get. I've never been a liver fan so I leave it unless someone else wants it.

I don't see any point in gutting an elk. Getting the hide off 1st will cool it much faster and gutting just leaves a mess to work in. How I do a deer depends on where I am. If it's a drag, I gut it. If it's a pack, it gets boned so I don't.

[dave-t.]

Passing wasn't much of an option.:o

First day I hunted on my own, had a lot of action with non-target animals, and snuck into a herd bull and his 10-11 cows at 11:50. I had a good long 4-5 seconds to decide if I was going to head shoot the bull over the top of the cows, in thick black timber and blowdowns. He lived.

It was an amazing hunt.

I'd go back today and hunt under the same conditions at twice the price, but there is now about 20" of snow where I was camped at 9,800' elevation.

Packing out an elk, mine or my buddies, was the only thing that was missed on this hunt.



How do you go back to hunting whitetails after this?:(

[Bushman]

Welcome back, Dave. Yes, the scenery alone is worth the trip to a lot of us flatlanders. I was one dragged out hunter after I'd get back from elk hunting. We always hunted the third rifle season in CO. and only had a week to recover, then go deer hunting. It did take the starch out of this guy romping around in those mountains up in that thin air. It is as tough as you want to make it on yourself. One of our guys told the leader of the group that it was the best hunt that he had ever been on, but the most physically demanding trip he had ever been on so please don't ever invite him again!

[dave-t.]

Don't take offense to this, but after getting busted at under 50yds one day, I started thinking about "physically demanding". It doesn't come close.

Beat, bruised, carrying extra weight, working around obsticles in thick cover, crazy terrain, with no air.... comes closer but still doesn't capture that type of hunting.

The excitement is off the charts as well.

Physically I was as good as I could expect, there is no practice for thin air, I was not ready mentally. It was much better than I expected.

[Twanger]

Sorry to hear you didn't score!
On my first hunt out west I would take the first legal animal I could.
Plenty of time to get choosy on subsequent hunts.

[GF.]

Awesome hunt, from the sounds of it. If you got into animals, saw a legal bull, and didn't have a fantastic time, then you were there for the wrong reasons :D

So, uh..... How big was the bull? Get a count?

(And thank you for not head-shooting an Elk!)

[GF.]

How do you go back to hunting whitetails after this?:(

I think that's why I'm being so laid back - and risking losing my shot, if I'm not careful - in regard to getting my landowner's permission. I've never caught a buzz just looking out from a deer stand a the scenery, and compared to humpin' the hills after 5-and-6-hundred pound cows, sitting in a tree waiting for some piddly, 120-pound doe just loses something in translation. Even a 200-pound buck seems a little anticlimactic.....

Not that I won't be shaking in my boots if I see one, mind you, but from a distance.....:rolleyes:

[dave-t.]

No, I didn't get a point count, but he was one of those NM giant herd bulls, just a huge rack, never saw much of his body, his cows were in front of him. It not only made trying to get a shot harder, but showed the bulls experience, he did an about face and walked almost straight away out of sight as soon as something was up. I never had much of a chance at him other than the moving head shot in thick timber. I found two bull skulls a 5x6, and a 5x5 and neither one was as big as the herd bull I saw.

Heck why not post some pics.

24 mile mark from pavement.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22563-2/015.JPG

Sleeping quarters.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22555-2/011.JPG

Kitchen.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22559-2/014.JPG

[dave-t.]

10,700' elevation, about 1.5hrs before sundown.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22571-2/032.JPG


Rim of canyon at about 9,600'. The elk got down slope pretty quick at any sign of trouble.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22575-2/036.JPG


What elk eat when the pressure is on. Fresh aspen blowndown. Also what your pants look like after miles of blowdowns.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22583-2/046.JPG


About 11:30am in a relatively open area. Open as far as sight distance anyway.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22579-2/043.JPG

[dave-t.]

Tuesday night.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22587-2/050.JPG


After stopping the Wednesday hunt at 9am, we sat under the fly and listened to the emergency weather radio and had some coffee. Bad news, 10"+ more inches of snow expected before dark, 2k feet below us. Ugh. Run for your life.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22595-2/054.JPG


Back at the look out 24 mile mark.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22599-2/060.JPG


Making our way off of the mountain.
http://www.archerytalkpics.com/gallery2/d/22603-2/063.JPG


We had to run for it on Wednesday late in the morning, and the season was over Thursday at dark. We had maybe 10-12 hrs of hunt time cut short from the trip, since we had to break camp at some point anyway. It was really a great time though.

I stalked to within 35yds of a 3x4 mulie, got to 18yds of a mulie doe and fawn, saw two bobcats (one at 6yds), had blue grouse all over, and saw golen eages soaring below me in the canyon, and the bulls were still bugling. I sas within 80yds of elk every day for the first 4 days of the hunt. I can't complain about any of it.

[Bushman]

What do you figure killed the two bulls that you found the skulls from? Too bad that you couldn't have hung in there to be able to hunt in the snow. It really made still hunting and being able to see and pattern the elk much easier. It flattened our tent though and I built an igloo one day out hunting just so I wouldn't die out there, but did it ever move the elk in.

[GF.]

So if nobody had to pack out an Elk, what's the deal on that very nice rack there???

Maybe they grow 'em extra-incredibly-super-duper big down there and that's just a leetle feller, but (JMO) only a Royal Fool would pass up a bull like that one on public land. Especially a 'rookie' Elk chaser.

Me being me, I'm pretty I'd have come home with at least one of those two skulls you found :D

[dave-t.]

That 5x5 was found 1/2 mile from camp Sunday, and since my cousin and I were heading that way we packed it out, 39" main beam if I remember. The 6x5 I found Saturday morning was a little smaller and in rougher shape, but I was heading the wrong way to carry it. With the weather jumping in on us, I never got back to pick it up. The best I could figure was that they were unrecovered archery bulls. Bears had the rest of their skeletons spread out all over creation.

Bushman, the end report was that 19" or so of snow would be what we would have to deal with if we stayed. To rich for my blood. That Wed morning hunt was the first day of the trip where nobody got into elk or even saw fresh elk sign. But, there was still another 9 hours+ of snow comming. I'd bet they went down 1,200' into the canyon, which they did often already, and then had a little less snow to deal with. Also, it would have taken a determined man to get down in there when it was dry, heading down there in the snow, it would have taken a lunatic.

Thursday morning back in Sante Fe, it looked like it was still storming pretty good on the mountain tops that we could see from town.

My wood/blue rifle never looked worse after that Wednesday morning hunt. I litterally tipped it butt up to dump water out of the barrel channel. The snow did improve visibility and lessen the sound of my movement though.

[Hi Ball]

Dave-T & Bushman, I remember one year when elk hunters got snowed in and they were told to grab what they could put on their backs and "LET'S GO" gentlemen. Their were air lifted out of a large valley and the snow came in quick 2 days before they were picked up. It showed the snow on the vehicles half way up on the drivers side glass and more snow on the way. Those vehicles were going to have to stay the winter and be picked up next spring sometime.:eek: :( :)

[Rock Chuck]

I've hunted elk for 7 days so far this season and have yet to see a legal animal - which would include any elk with antlers longer than 6". They be scarce this year. Didn't see any wolves, either, but they won't be where the elk aren't.

[GF.]

Most likely you're right about what caused those bulls' demise. I sometimes wish there were something in place to discourage more people from bowhunting for Elk. Or deer, too, for that matter. Every time I hear about an animal going unrecovered, it makes me wanna puke.

Probably not fair of me, but I suspect that a lot of shots are being taken which just plain shouldn't be attempted, whether by that individual shooter or by archers in general. And it really chaps me. :mad:

I mean, how are rifle hunters expected to react if the only legal bulls they see in a season are like the two you found - showing the hallmarks of a bow shot gone bad? It doesn't matter how many bulls might be around but escaping their notice, because in their minds, those !@#$%&*!!! bowhunters are killing off all the bulls during rut. And fodder for the antis' propaganda mills, to boot.

[Bushman]

Hi Ball, I'll bet that we were in the same storm third season in CO. west of Gunnison. They were pulling guys out with a forest service helicopter telling them to come back in the spring for their stuff. They called it the storm of the century and there were trees cracking off all around me with winds to 100 mph winds they said. If it hadn't blown the tops of the ridges clean, there was no way that I was walking through the valleys. I tried that and went to my waist all from one morning's snow. That was the year that I saw my buddy throw the bolt from his rifle in a fire to thaw it out after he missed a king sized mule deer when the gun froze up. It sure moved the elk down.

Rock Chuck, I heard yesterday that our transplanted elk herd isn't doing too well. They monitor it pretty closely and this spring there were 20 calves born. Now there are 3 left. There are more wolves in this state than any state needs. Our deer are really taking it on the chin too.

GF, there is a very nice compound bow hanging on a nail in the basement for just the reasons that you stated. I hung it up, but most guys haven't and I too am sickened by the stories that I hear.

[dave-t.]

The other possibility for the found skulls was poaching/road shooting. My cousin says that location is pretty lawless, and rough types go up there to do their thing in solitude, whatever their "thing" is. Drinking/drugging and driving sounded like a lot of it, but that leads to all sorts of bad decisions.