View Full Version : Ethics question....
OK, so the private land I'm on was hunted by another guy, oh, probably 3-5 years back. Not last year or the year before, anyway.
And he left at least two stands out there in - let's face it - pretty prime locations. Last year, one of them was so nearly on top of a trail that a guy could probably pee into a scrape from the top of the ladder.
I'm not crazy about the solidity (or lack thereof) of that set-up, but maybe if I were to tighten up the stabilizer strap on it a bit, level it out a little ....
Do you think I'd be committing some kind of moral or ethical offense by going ahead and using one or both of these stands?? And if not, where do you draw the line with something like that? I mean, would I be within the bounds of decent society if I were to maybe move them just a bit? Not so far that he couldn't find them if he came to collect them, but maybe so the ladder doesn't have one foot in the scrape....:rolleyes:
I haven't used them yet, because I don't really feel right about it, but I'm starting to think that this is one of those deals where I'm holding myself to something of a stupid standard.
Whaddya think?
dave-t.
10-12-2009, 03:51 PM
If they've been there 3 years, the woods owns them now.
I'd ask the landowner about them, and take them if nobody else had a claim or a care. Be carefull with them until you know the condition of them. Those straps can get damaged by time in the conditions and tree growth.
Go with new ratchet straps if the straps are at all questionable.
I totally understand your POV, so you'll be patient with me if I think that's taking it a little too far ;)
We do know who owns the stuff, so it wouldn't be the Cowboy Way to just walk off with any of it... But I gather that you'd have no qualms about reconditioning orrepositioning any of it... There's a hang-on out there, too. Definitely placed for a firearms hunt, but if I could get up to it safely, I think I could bring it down to a more normal height and put it to pretty good use within just a few yards of where it is now...
The ladder, I was thinking to reposition a bit farther off the trail. Maybe not exactly at #1 pin range, but where the arrow would be pretty tight to the pin so I don't need to sweat any hold-under....
The thing is, the wind there always follows the morning down-draft, then switches direction later on. I don't want to be right on the ground with them, but if I stood the ladder off a little ways down-hill from the main trail, I'd be able to cover the main thoroughfare as well as get a look at any bucks that might circle down hill & down wind of that big scrape that's almost always there....
I'd just need to do a nice sneaky transition to the stand on other side once things warmed up a touch.
Sabre
10-12-2009, 05:18 PM
I totally understand your POV, so you'll be patient with me if I think that's taking it a little too far ;)
We do know who owns the stuff, so it wouldn't be the Cowboy Way to just walk off with any of it... But I gather that you'd have no qualms about reconditioning orrepositioning any of it... There's a hang-on out there, too. Definitely placed for a firearms hunt, but if I could get up to it safely, I think I could bring it down to a more normal height and put it to pretty good use within just a few yards of where it is now...
The ladder, I was thinking to reposition a bit farther off the trail. Maybe not exactly at #1 pin range, but where the arrow would be pretty tight to the pin so I don't need to sweat any hold-under....
The thing is, the wind there always follows the morning down-draft, then switches direction later on. I don't want to be right on the ground with them, but if I stood the ladder off a little ways down-hill from the main trail, I'd be able to cover the main thoroughfare as well as get a look at any bucks that might circle down hill & down wind of that big scrape that's almost always there....
I'd just need to do a nice sneaky transition to the stand on other side once things warmed up a touch.
If you're sure nobody has been using them for 2 or three years I'd say it'd be alright to sit those stands if you want. However, it's NEVER OK to move a stand that doesn't belong to you and it's DEFINITELY NOT OK to take them EVER. I've personally left portable stand out for as long as five years without moving them or hunting them but if I happened along one day and found somebody taking the stand down I'd wring their friggin' neck.:mad:
ncboman
10-12-2009, 06:58 PM
If I have permission to hunt the land I will hunt the land ,,, and any stand on it unless specificly told not to or someone is already in it.
I know guys that think their stand ties a spot up but that dog doan hunt with me. Same way with public land. Just because a stand is already where I want to hunt means nothing unless someone is in it. I have a hanger on public land now. Anyone that finds it is welcome to use it. :)
My buddy
10-12-2009, 11:01 PM
If you know the person that owns the stands, why don't you just ask him?
LampLighter
10-12-2009, 11:07 PM
Do you know if the other guy is coming back ? Like, did you ask the land owner " hey , that other guy still hunting here too ? " Maybe he gave notice. I once shot a doe with that dreaded 308 again and the deer ran into another property. Long story short, a woman hunter shot ( later we determined she shot into the ground in case we found the deer) . We met her at the fence. She claimed the deer ran down a fire lane and turned into a thicket. She said we could not enter to look, and she radioed the pres. who showed up with a handgun. We later found blood and bone, drag marks, which ended at a truck two track, fresh. All much past where she said the deer turned off the fire lane. Another girl in that property was a waitress at shoneys. She bragged to my brother how they stole a doe deer from a hunter that morning from the rail road tracks. Said the deer ran into their property and died. She didn't know she was talking to my brother. Funny thing, somehow her 20 ft. wooden ladder stand got cut up with a chainsaw like at midnight. Them darn kids from across the tracks must have been roaming around one Saturday night. Go figure.
DaveHawk
10-13-2009, 08:35 AM
I've left stands in woods and forgot about them. One time I found a guy in one on opening day. I told him he can hunt it any time he wants but when I am there I would like to hunt it. He was nice and said ok. Thanks It was a double ladder stand and I figured he did not want a partner for the morning. LOL
Just imagine that... I agree as much with Sabre as with anybody on the board and maybe more so! ;)
Better buy a lottery ticket today :D
More details, in case this affects the call for anybody....
The landowner's secretary got in touch with this guy last year and remind him that it's still there. He said something about oh, yeah, I'll come by and get it, but never did. So I don't know him to call him personally, but he's had every reasonable opportunity to round up his gear if he wants to.
But to my knowledge, he's not expecting to hunt there this year, and he can't take any weapons into the woods without having the landowner's signature on the official state form. What with the Elk trip, I kinda let that slide, so I'm hoping to get that settled soon myself.... Hopefully, he hasn't opened the place up to anybody else, but I think I would have gotten a 'Hey, if you're not planning... " kind of a call from him, seeing as he was my Father-in-Law's boss for a lotta years and they were really close.
But honestly, Sabre, I think if I kept the stands within easy bow range of where they are right now, that other guy would have a hard time being sure whether I'd moved them or not, they've been out there so long.....
dave-t.
10-13-2009, 09:37 AM
I don't leave my stands out in the same tree for more than a year, even if they will be put back up in the same tree! It just seeams to me that the guy has had plenty of chances to come and get his stands if he cared enough to do so.
At some point they become litter, imo.
ncboman
10-13-2009, 10:01 AM
I once came upon a stand in Illinois on public land. Since it was my first time hunting the area, I went up a tree about six ft from the stand.
As it happened I shot a 10pt, so before I climbed down I left one of my cards tacked to the tree at stand height. :D
My buddy
10-13-2009, 11:20 AM
Do you know if the other guy is coming back ? Like, did you ask the land owner " hey , that other guy still hunting here too ? " Maybe he gave notice. I once shot a doe with that dreaded 308 again and the deer ran into another property. Long story short, a woman hunter shot ( later we determined she shot into the ground in case we found the deer) . We met her at the fence. She claimed the deer ran down a fire lane and turned into a thicket. She said we could not enter to look, and she radioed the pres. who showed up with a handgun. We later found blood and bone, drag marks, which ended at a truck two track, fresh. All much past where she said the deer turned off the fire lane. Another girl in that property was a waitress at shoneys. She bragged to my brother how they stole a doe deer from a hunter that morning from the rail road tracks. Said the deer ran into their property and died. She didn't know she was talking to my brother. Funny thing, somehow her 20 ft. wooden ladder stand got cut up with a chainsaw like at midnight. Them darn kids from across the tracks must have been roaming around one Saturday night. Go figure.
Great story of trespassing and destruction of property.
It things like this and people like you that give honest hunters a bad name.
Perry
10-13-2009, 12:06 PM
Great story of trespassing and destruction of property.
It things like this and people like you that give honest hunters a bad name.
He never said he did it haha
No, but I'm sure he knows exactly what charges the culprits would face.....
:rolleyes:
But then, isn't it illegal to 'misappropriate' an animal shot by another hunter, even if it did expire on your private dirt? With the waitress bragging up their good 'luck' in public, you'd think that would have been easy enough to prosecute.
:confused:
Perry
10-13-2009, 12:21 PM
Nah im not a fan of ruining other peoples things because they did me wrong, but If i see em broken down on the side of the road, il keep on going, and if the time ever came they wanted to come onto my property to chase a deer, they would get the same respect i was given.
pepaw
10-13-2009, 12:42 PM
I would't take them, but I would hunt them or move them after telling the landowner.
Knowing me, I wouldn't have picked the exact tree and spend lots of time and sweat moving them a few yards!
pepaw
Herne
10-13-2009, 12:53 PM
Does the man have any residual claim on the land. If he's going to hunt there and is paying a rent or some kind of return to the lnadowner, then no you cannot touch them.
If he's not hunting there and has fairly been contacted and has still left them, then I'd use them, certainly. I wouldn't remove them, but certainly I'd use them.
From the way I see it this is very different from public land. in any case, how do you know he didn't inherit them himself.
DaveHawk
10-13-2009, 02:04 PM
We found a couple of stands on the new lease this year and just took them down and set them by the tree. With all the new signed I'm sure the owner of the stands will get the message.
No, Herne, no claim of any kind that the stands' owner could make on the property...
Interesting point on whether they were inherited, though... I used to hunt this property in '99-'40, maybe '05, and while there was another hunter with access to the place - three, actually, but two worked as a team, I guess you'd say - so the owner had carved things up into thirds.
But that didn't prevent a ladder stand - fairly similar to the one in question - from appearing in 'my' section in the last year or so that I hunted there....
:confused:
So I suppose it's possible that the ladder was originally purchased by someone else altogether.
Hmmmmm.....
I think I'll test the stability of that ladder and see if I can't get it to where it seems safe enough for a few hours' sitting time. :D
Seems kind of silly to put up my climber 10 yards away, or to tie up a hang-on in almost exactly the same spot....
It does make me think about those morning thermals, though..... I I place the stand in the right spot through there, any scent should get sluiced right off the hillside and I should be able to get a shot on approaching animals before they have a chance to wind me...except for any bucks that might be using the same air currents to monitor that scrape....
So maybe I need two stands in that spot anyway???
swamp
10-13-2009, 09:23 PM
You have permission to hunt the land so hunt on it... use the existing stands if they are safe otherwsie put up your own stands any damn place you like... end of story....
OK, so the private land I'm on was hunted by another guy, oh, probably 3-5 years back. Not last year or the year before, anyway.
And he left at least two stands out there in - let's face it - pretty prime locations. Last year, one of them was so nearly on top of a trail that a guy could probably pee into a scrape from the top of the ladder.
I'm not crazy about the solidity (or lack thereof) of that set-up, but maybe if I were to tighten up the stabilizer strap on it a bit, level it out a little ....
Do you think I'd be committing some kind of moral or ethical offense by going ahead and using one or both of these stands?? And if not, where do you draw the line with something like that? I mean, would I be within the bounds of decent society if I were to maybe move them just a bit? Not so far that he couldn't find them if he came to collect them, but maybe so the ladder doesn't have one foot in the scrape....:rolleyes:
I haven't used them yet, because I don't really feel right about it, but I'm starting to think that this is one of those deals where I'm holding myself to something of a stupid standard.
Whaddya think?
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is just how big a boy are you? You'd look sort of funny walking back out of the woods with just that fancy sims vibration stabilizer sticking out of your rear end and the contraption fully inserted, yup sideways.
Nah, I never leave any up from year to year but when I have mine installed at my uncle's place I have a note that asks others to enjoy them if I'm not there but if my pickup is in the driveway I'll probably be there and planning on using them. I have had to ask folks politely to leave my stand but never had any trouble. I'm relatively certain that if they refused I could jerk the bottom ladder rung out from under them with my two hands if they became verbally obnoxious.
If the guy still has permission to hunt then I'd politely excuse myself if he showed up. I'd even go as far as to move the ladder to a better spot but be prepared to explain why if he showed up and you were in his stand. You might even leave him a note in a plastic bag and thank him for the use of the stand.
Install all new straps if its been up there for three years or more.
Alan R McDaniel Jr
10-13-2009, 10:18 PM
Do you think I'd be committing some kind of moral or ethical offense by going ahead and using one or both of these stands??
Whaddya think?
GF, Moral and ethical questions are best answered by the person facing them. Do you think it is moral or ethical to use, move, repair, or otherwise alter the stands that do not belong to you on another persons property, especially when you know the person or who they are, at least.
There are those who feel no moral or ethical obligation to their fellow hunters to allow them to trail wounded animals. There are those who don't have any moral or ethical qualms about trespassing in the dark of night and destroying private property. Only you can decide where you stand.
If you can't look at a situation and say, "this is the right thing to do." Then you probably shouldn't do it.
Alan
That's the thing, though, Hink - the guy no longer has access to hunt the property, and frankly, if he hasn't come back for them yet, there's probably not any real reason to believe that he'll be back for them, period...
It's just that I was raised such that 'finders-keepers' doesn't cut it.
But you get into a serious discussion of ethics, Alan, and it's important to agree on a definition of the word....
Strictly speaking, it'd be unethical of me to use/move these stands belonging to an unknown party if I would not use/move them if I knew that they belonged to a friend of mine, all other circumstances being equal.
And interestingly, some guys would be more likely to use them if they belonged to a friend - "Hell, ol' Ralph & I go way back, so he won't mind any" (which, interestingly enough, is exactly how I'd feel if I were ol' Ralph and found out a friend was using a stand that I'd left out) while others would happily take the unknown party's stands home at the end of the season (which I'd never consider, myself), but would give their friend's gear a wide berth, at least until they'd had a chance to check in (which is more my style if I'm now Ralph's friend and not ol' Ralph himself).
So basically, the ethical position is that you treat every other hunter the same way, because he's a fellow hunter, and therefore your equal and peer. Friend or foe makes no difference; you can't claim that having a feud on with somebody somehow makes it right to steal from them.....:rolleyes:
But the odd thing about ethical behavior is that it in some respects, it only demands that you treat others equally - not necessarily all that well.:eek: After all, some people really are equal opportunity a-holes, but I guess that's because they don't have any friends to mistreat....:rolleyes:
So in this case, I have avoided using these stands simply because they don't belong to me, but on the other hand, I guess it'd be ethical enough for me to use/move them as I see fit, provided that I leave them for the next guy, whoever he might be, and leave them in at least as good condition as I found them. And if the original owner does come looking for them, he needs to be able to find them easily enough... After all, he left them where I couldn't help but run across them, so I owe him the same, right?
But the tricky thing about ethics is that it also kind of assumes that you'll treat others not only 'the same', no matter who they are; not only according to the golden rule, but also in such a way that the other person will basically agree that you've met the golden rule standard as he would interpret it under the circumstances....
:confused:
So that's where regional differences can, in fact, come into play, and why I thought it was worth posing the question here.... What's plain as pee, capital E Ethical to me (as a westerner) might not be received as such by someone born & raised in the Northeast/greater NYC/metro area. And of course the irony is that the greater the expected level of hospitality, the greater the burden to avoid overstepping the bounds of local custom. Hell, in some places, it is (or once was) customary to offer a traveling stranger not only a meal and a bed, but your wife to share it with him :eek: But I seriously doubt that it was ever considered good manners to act like you expected it as your due.....:rolleyes:
Herne
10-14-2009, 01:16 PM
Ok, well now we got you out of all the moral scruples bit which the other punter didn't...
(BTW at 19 in the back of a pickup, did you go through all this agonising before acting?... I'm only asking politely because I know you are a moral soul)
Thermals. Get a gun. Hit them beyond thermal worrying range. Easier and better for the peace of mind. Dressing out will take your mind of the scruples bit, and dragging out will keep it off.
Twanger
10-14-2009, 04:23 PM
I find myself agreeing with Swamp on this one, and that's a rare thing!
Hunt 'em, and fix 'em up if you have to make them safely huntable but don't move them.
My buddy
10-14-2009, 04:34 PM
For goodness sakes.....hunt the freaking stands.....if the guy knew how much time and effort you put into determining if you should use them or not I am sure the guy would say it was fine.
Once again though, it sounds like the answer is just a few phone calls away.
call person that has his number, request his, call him, ask question, get answer.
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