Chimney leak

[ncboman]

Watch it grow.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909009.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909012.jpg

:rolleyes:

[ncboman]

wonder what the other side looks like?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909015.jpg
... notice the bottom chimney header is above the roof plane?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909016.jpg

hmmm,,,,

:rolleyes:

[swamp]

don't they use lead flashing there... lead is easier to bend and fold than aluminum...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkvwjE0LQOM&feature=related

[ncboman]

It's what I removed Swamp. I have no control over what's already there. :confused:

Over time, sorry arse one piece flashing and counterflashing does not respond well to thermal shock.

... btw, lead is poisonous and notorious for leaching. I doan use it because in this area it opens up a huge liability for anyone viewed as successful.

Just hang on a bit and watch where this goes. :)

[swamp]

most chimneys here in the north are flashed with lead... guess the north hasnt caught on yet... i guess we should ban all lead core bulllets, lead bird shot and lead buck shot too.. lead fishing sinkers and the like...

[M99ER]

Lead is much easier to work with, will stretch a little as compared to ripping like aluminum does immediately upon stress. It`s the best for around here.

but I guess anything is gonna leak if it`s done like what`s in your pics! :eek:

[Rock Chuck]

Lead is almost never used here on residences. In 7 years of roofing, I never found it once except on drains and scuppers on flat roofs. Galvanized does a good job if you do it right.

[Altjaeger]

Down here I think I saw lead once in dozens of roofs.

[Bushman]

"...if you do it right." Can I ever relate to that line. We are renting out my mom's house and the new tenant said that there is rain water coming through the light fixtures in the living room! It seems that mom got a "deal" on the new roof she had put on and doing it right wasn't. I thought that I was going to need to replace the fascia boards, but now I'm looking at fascia, aluminum soffits, beam cladding, gutters and a new roof for $10,700. All brought on earlier than expected because the chimney flashing was done poorly.

[swamp]

Lead is much easier to work with, will stretch a little as compared to ripping like aluminum does immediately upon stress. It`s the best for around here.

but I guess anything is gonna leak if it`s done like what`s in your pics! :eek:

I agree with you... Lead flashing is expensive... considering the time to cut, point, and flash a chimney lead flashing is worth the extra money... aluminum doesn't fold bend roll and fill like lead does... Lead flashing is commonly sold anyone trying to fill suit against someone for using lead flashing would have to long uphill battle to prove damages.

http://hardware.hardwarestore.com/27-104-flashings/25-10-x-24''-lead-flashing--632402.aspx

[Rock Chuck]

If you like to shoot a muzzle loader, make friends with the local roofers. I have at least 100 lb of pure lead left from my roofing days. When they tear off a flat roof, the drains will normally be flashed with lead and most goes in a dumpster.

[swamp]

If you like to shoot a muzzle loader, make friends with the local roofers. I have at least 100 lb of pure lead left from my roofing days. When they tear off a flat roof, the drains will normally be flashed with lead and most goes in a dumpster.

Cash price for scrap lead is currently a little over $1 per lb.. as I understand it..

[Rock Chuck]

Tell them you'll pay 1.25 and come get it to boot. You can cast a lot of balls with 5 lb.

[ncboman]

ok, let's pick this back up again ...

where were we? ... oh yeah, here we were ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Roth%20Job/ncboman101909016.jpg

you guys make this tuff. :rolleyes:

and I was gonna learn ya somethin. :D

[ncboman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409001.jpg

notice the vacumn cleaner? ... I like to run a clean jobsite.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409003.jpg

above we can see both lower chimney headers were out of plane on the left side from the start. Notice the water stains on the 'high' rafter.

This was the beginning of all chimney problems and speaks volumes about the standard fare roofers around because we are looking at the 3rd roof on this residence. :rolleyes:

[ncboman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409005.jpg

but wait a minute now ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409006.jpg
what's this???

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409007.jpg

yup, we gotta dig that one out too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409010.jpg

What have you done to my roof? :eek: :D

[ncboman]

:)

now here I'm not gonna play fair because I'm not gonna show you how I fixed the headers and high rafter ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409013.jpg

can't tell everything. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409014.jpg

but we can clearly see it's been somehow brought into proper plane. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409021.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/ncboman%2010%2024%2009/ncboman102409023.jpg

:)

wanna see more or do we need to talk some more about the virtues of turning good bullets into flashing? :rolleyes:

[Bushman]

NC, a couple of roofing questions:

1. Do you prefer fiberglass or asphalt shingles?

2. Mom's house is going to need that exact same treatment. The shingles look fine, but the wood under them in some places is spongy. I take it that you can spot treat a roof with new wood, better flashing and some matching shingles just in the damaged areas rather than blowing off the whole roof and starting over?

3. They say that up to three layers of shingles on a roof is still up to code around here, but every professional roof job that I see they are taking it down to bare wood and putting down just one layer again. What gives?

Thanks for the insight.

[Rock Chuck]

For 1 thing, ever figured out what a layer of shingles weighs? Some houses just can't carry 3 layers.
There's a big gambrel barn here that has 5 layers on it. No it's not code and the last 2 layers are illegal. Some of the rafters have collapsed and it sags badly in the middle.
I've also seen cases where the nails were only into the lower layers, not the deck. Wind does wonders for those jobs.

[M99ER]

That chimney header (box-out) looks like it was w-a-y to tight around the chimney. Heck, it almost looks like the original builder may have used concrete nails shot in from the sides! :eek:

Above the ``frost line`` in more northern states (Canada etc), the frost would have a field day heaving that roof around year after year against a chimney surrounded that tight. A good flashing job allows for a little movement back and forth without leaking. There`s no way to let that header frame move if there`s no gap. I think there`s actually a code in this area about it.


Cash price for scrap lead is currently a little over $1 per lb.. as I understand it..
I cashed out some scrap aluminum and auto batteries etc, a few weeks ago and the prices at the time were only 23 CENTS per pound for lead. Batteries were 9 cents a pound.

[Hi Ball]

Well it is a given, that the chimney needs flashing that will go up at least 12 inches on that brickwork.

[ncboman]

NC, a couple of roofing questions:

1. Do you prefer fiberglass or asphalt shingles?

2. Mom's house is going to need that exact same treatment. The shingles look fine, but the wood under them in some places is spongy. I take it that you can spot treat a roof with new wood, better flashing and some matching shingles just in the damaged areas rather than blowing off the whole roof and starting over?

3. They say that up to three layers of shingles on a roof is still up to code around here, but every professional roof job that I see they are taking it down to bare wood and putting down just one layer again. What gives?

Thanks for the insight.

:)


1. Do you prefer fiberglass or asphalt shingles?

I would not use 'asphalt shingles' on anything I'd put my name to. They curl if the moon's wrong on installation, curl, cornflake, and blister in severe heat, and usually look like crap within three to five years.

Even so so quality fiberglass shingles are a far cry better in every way.

I use Tamko Heritage 30AR shingles (http://www.tamko.com/ProductDisplayPage/tabid/53/ControlType/productDisplay/itemid/170/Default.aspx) on probably 90+% of the shingle roofs I replace.

Best bang for the buck and superior wind resistance to nearly all other brands. Tamko still uses a 5" exposure while most other brands have gone to 5 5/8 exposure. Roofing mechanics usually love the long exposures because they can go faster and cheaper but being the headarsehole of my company, I know more nails per square usually equals more holding power.

sidenote, my company has actually changed the market dynamics for shingles in northeastern nc. Tamko dominates the market here. Most of the big time competition HAD to go to Tamko because I was kicking butt with my sales presentations. :D


2. Mom's house is going to need that exact same treatment. The shingles look fine, but the wood under them in some places is spongy. I take it that you can spot treat a roof with new wood, better flashing and some matching shingles just in the damaged areas rather than blowing off the whole roof and starting over?


Unless you have someone like me around, you'll likely be better off to replace the entire roof and make the needed repairs all at one time. It's not cheap either way. A crappy repair job insures a new roof soon and is sometimes just wasted money.

I can tell from here your mother needs a new roof. :D

Honestly, guys that tout spot repairing a roof of age over replacement, I'd be careful of.

I started the above job as a chimney reflash/counterflash. If I'd known where it was going, I'd have priced that entire side but it's no biggie in this case. The money is not a problem. There's a story that goes with the job I'm featuring but I'm not going into the customer's biz online. This is only one house and we have an ongoing business relationship. :)


3. They say that up to three layers of shingles on a roof is still up to code around here, but every professional roof job that I see they are taking it down to bare wood and putting down just one layer again. What gives?

You never can get a phone # and guarantee from 'they say'.

fwiw, when a nail is driven thru the old shingles underneath, they often fracture and begin to crumble. Over time the area immediately around the nail becomes weak. The roof NEVER last to full life, usually beginning to fail around half life.

When I do a roof over, I make that very clear and I don't do many. Maybe one job in a thousand is a roofover for me. I've never nailed a third layer but I've torn em off. I'm lookin at one with three layers now. :cool:


Thanks for the insight.

my pleasure.

I should say I'm only an expert in MY area of NC. Roofing requirements and practices up there are somewhat different and while familiar with most of them, I have no experience roofing 'up north'.

more to come on this job later. :)

[ncboman]

That chimney header (box-out) looks like it was w-a-y to tight around the chimney. Heck, it almost looks like the original builder may have used concrete nails shot in from the sides! :eek:

Above the ``frost line`` in more northern states (Canada etc), the frost would have a field day heaving that roof around year after year against a chimney surrounded that tight. A good flashing job allows for a little movement back and forth without leaking. There`s no way to let that header frame move if there`s no gap. I think there`s actually a code in this area about it.


I cashed out some scrap aluminum and auto batteries etc, a few weeks ago and the prices at the time were only 23 CENTS per pound for lead. Batteries were 9 cents a pound.

Not sure there was ANY code in this county when this house was built.

I don't know the full history of this house but it sure looks like the builder was a brickmason first and a carpenter next. I'm positive the mason put the original flashings in AND the original shingles on. ... something very unusual around here.

I didn't get into the chimney clearance issue. I saw no sign of undue stress or movement in the framing and wasn't looking to sap the job over a nonproblem. It grew enough as it was.

Interesting you noted that. Usually the problem is too much gap. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I see. :rolleyes:

[swamp]

I cashed out some scrap aluminum and auto batteries etc, a few weeks ago and the prices at the time were only 23 CENTS per pound for lead. Batteries were 9 cents a pound.

http://www.metalprices.com/

[swamp]

:)

wanna see more or do we need to talk some more about the virtues of turning good bullets into flashing? :rolleyes:

Yes I'd like to see more photos after you have finished the job... are you going to use aluminum step flashing? Lead is better for reasons already discussed being far easier to bend and put inside in the mortar cuts that you will need to make but aluminum is better than nothing for sure...

I would have probably used some bitchothane as the first flashing layer... easy to apply and couldn't hurt the chimney's appearance by having it go up a few inches up the chimney.. as it will eventually be hidden the the metal step flashing that will follow... I don't think the headers being slightly out of plane (if they were) would have much do to with the leaks... the headers followed the line of the roof rafters... shiming and /or trimming the headers out to put them back in the same plane won't have much effect on the leaking issues.

[Bushman]

NC, printed for posterity and thank you for the professional insight. A very timely topic for us right now.

[swamp]

http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/3935431/10697550

[ncboman]

It's what I removed Swamp. I have no control over what's already there. :confused:

Over time, sorry arse one piece flashing and counterflashing does not respond well to thermal shock.

... btw, lead is poisonous and notorious for leaching. I doan use it because in this area it opens up a huge liability for anyone viewed as successful.

Just hang on a bit and watch where this goes. :)

Swamp,

I hinted at the problem with using lead in my above post but apparantly you didn't understand. Allow me to be more specific.

It's a racial thingy.

In NC, if you are white and own your own business, surely you can afford to compensate the poor black children that have learning disabilities possibly caused by the lead you installed years ago. Facts do not matter. Perceptions are far more important. Black children are suffering and you WILL pay.

Now come on down here and tell/show everyone how to do it. Just bring plenty money when you come. Mike 'the hammer' Stanley, 'brothers in law', Joel Beasley, and plenty of others are actively advertising on tv for victims of all sorts of personal injury and they can't wait to see you in court. :cool:

You could even be sued for selling a house with lead paint or flashings. :eek:

Are you getting the picture yet? :rolleyes:

Call me chicken but I used pvc coated aluminum coil stock for this job, as I do on most chimneys. I guarantee it will not leak and will be 'user friendly' when it's time to replace the shingles again. What more could you want?

[swamp]

Lead flashing for that application is best but copper might be your second best option... copper should be easier to bend and fold than aluminum or is copper outlawed too?

[ncboman]

copper is good. ... so is gold.

Priced a roll of copper lately? :eek:

pvc coated trim coil is good too and since I have a metal break, bending any of it is easy. :)

[swamp]

copper is good. ... so is gold.

Priced a roll of copper lately? :eek:

pvc coated trim coil is good too and since I have a metal break, bending any of it is easy. :)

copper is pricey... you will have a lot of custom fitting for your step flashing so i doubt the brake would be useful for the step flashing on this chimney

what tool are you using to cut into the mortal joints ?

[ncboman]

I break the stepflashing in approx 4ft lengths and cut it into sections once on the roof, easier to carry and handle. Usually I measure the backpan and apron flashings when I look at the job and custom bend those here as well. Makes the job go much better and crisp breaks in the flashing makes the job and fit look professional. I usually diagram these out in my notebook when I estimate the job.

When I cut morter joints I use a skillsaw with abrasive blade sometimes. Some can be chisled easily with a hammer and flatbar. Very often I am afraid to jack with the morter on older homes much and use the method I will feature here. Many I use what's already there.

Chimneys, esp older ones, are very often not as solid as one would think/hope and I prefer safe over sorry. No telling what kind of stress is in this one with no room to move. :rolleyes:

[Altjaeger]

Swamp, I have noticed over time you are good about telling us how it is done in Maine and that that is the best way. I have also learned over time people do things differently in various regions, both nationally and internationally. The other thing I have learned is that there are good reasons for these differences.

[swamp]

Swamp, I have noticed over time you are good about telling us how it is done in Maine and that that is the best way. I have also learned over time people do things differently in various regions, both nationally and internationally. The other thing I have learned is that there are good reasons for these differences.

Doesn't matter if it maine wyoming texas or hawaii if its not flashed properly then it will leak. If you know of another way or a better way then i'm all ears ...

[ncboman]

if its not flashed properly then it will leak.

on that we can agree. :D

I haven't taken the finished pics yet. I'm letting the mastics set before I go back and paint the metal (if the customer decides on painting it). It looks pretty good as is.

I'll get some more pics then. :)

[Altjaeger]

Doesn't matter if it maine wyoming texas or hawaii if its not flashed properly then it will leak. If you know of another way or a better way then i'm all ears ...

I cannot disagree with the first sentence. Just saying there are other ways to skin a cat as I suspect NC is about to show you. Sometimes local conditions demand a different approach so you go to the alternative methods due to either different mechanical or social influences.

[ncboman]

Alt,

as Bill Mc says, you can tell em, you just can't tell em much. :D

Swamp's chimney will never leak because he did it himself and Ruby doan post any more. :D