New record bighorn

[Greybeard]

My buddy e-mailed that a new record bighorn was taken in Montana, green score 205. If so, apparently this will be the largest in recorded history for North America. Greybeard/

[Deerslayer]

If it is this one then there is quite a bit of controversy surrounding it. Although I think this one was taken last year and scored a bit over 204.

Record Bighorn (http://www.newwest.net/city/article/big_horn_sheep_killing_a_betrayal_of_trust/C41/L41/)

[swamp]

If it is this one then there is quite a bit of controversy surrounding it. Although I think this one was taken last year and scored a bit over 204.

Record Bighorn (http://www.newwest.net/city/article/big_horn_sheep_killing_a_betrayal_of_trust/C41/L41/)

This is an outrage... I hope all the newspapers in Montana carried the story...
Montana's game and fish dept definitely needs to be cleaned up.

[GF.]

The columnist did a nice job of positioning it as such, Swamp, but I can't agree with you.

Evidently, the primary target of the operation was somebody who definitely needed stopping, so what were the options? Should the state have poured resources into round-the-clock surveillance of this guy, or was a sting operation a whole lot more cost-effective?

And it's a false premise that allowing the agent to take the ram somehow cost the state any money or cost any hunter a tag, because there are the management goals and then there was an exception made - one animal sacrificed - in order to stop someone who was evidently very good at getting sheep hunters onto very big sheep - legally or not. Point being, this one poacher was assisting in the removal of multiple big sheep year after year.

So what's better for the state, the hunters, and the sheep program? One more sheep down, or letting the bad actor go about his business? It's too bad that it was this nice a ram, but them's the breaks...:(

JMO, if the agent had shot a barely-legal ram, the same writer would probably be thrilled to death that the poaching had been stopped. Complaining about the agent being 'above the law'? WTH? Don't undercover cops buy drugs all the time? Law-'breaking' by law enforcement in order to make a solid case is (IMO) a pretty necessary tool. If he hadn't shot the sheep, that agent would've had his cover blown, which could very well have proven fatal. "Poor guy just fell off of a cliff, but hey, that's sheep hunting for ya...." You can't even prosecute on a "he said/they said" basis if "he" is telling no tales for "them" to refute....

Too, without the sheep there was no physical evidence of a crime and of course, there is the matter of the guy buying the skull from the 'hunter', which may well have set him up on trafficking charges.

FWIW - I don't think that this ram being taken will have any adverse impacts on the going rate for the Governor's Tags, any more than a great trophy shot in a brochure drives down the price that any guide/outfitter/deer farm can charge for their services.

And frankly, if a sheep tag is worth more only because somebody thinks they can buy themselves a spot in a record book, then it's being sold to somebody who has a mighty sketchy sense of what hunting is About...

[Hi Ball]

Swamp sometimes you got to sell a little "moonshine" to catch those that made the still! I hate that the biggest RAM in the territory had to be takin in such a manner but no telling how many other animals were simply taken by under handed methods breaking the law.:) This agent has my blessing...Amen!

[LeeInSC]

I think the outrage is over the fact that the biggest ram in the country did not have to be taken in order to snare these illegal hunters. Law enforcement could have worked all kinds of angles to shoot any decent ram and still had the same case against these guys.

I find auctioning off a tag for $200,000 to be especially offensive, and totally at odds with promoting hunting among the general population. If some landowner wants to charge a high guide fee, that is their business. The state should never charge one resident more than another, especially some outrageous fee which underscores how some species have become only accessible to the wealthy. The state could raise $200,000 by raffling off tickets for the special tag drawing if they want to have a fund-raiser that would be fair, create good will, and project a favorable public image.

[GF.]

Lee - if you've paid somebody to help you poach a record-class ram and he gets you the shot, are you going to pass on it? If you had gotten onto a lesser ram first and he told you "No, not that one, there's a bigger one here" are you going to somehow insist on killing the smaller ram and not raise his suspicions?

Remember - the agent deliberately missed at least twice (IIRC) - probably hoping that the Big Dude would escape and that the agent would have to 'settle' for a smaller ram in order to collect his evidence, but I'd wager that you can only miss just so many times before you become the target....

And FWIW, I think the Governor's tag auctions serve a purpose in that they demonstrate to the public what a high premium some sportsmen really do place on the conservation of these animals; not only do hunters come off looking like they'e putting very serious money where their mouths are, but it drives home the animals' economic value to the state.

But I think that adding a raffle to the proceedings is a great idea also - it lets hunters of more modest means cooperate to contribute funds on a scale that would rival the single, big-spender who won the auction. Not that those who can afford to buy a truckload of tickets wouldn't have an edge vs. you and me, but this way we can all contribute something, and our chances are still a lot better than in the auction, eh?

And don't forget - all the other tags sell for the same price and are equally available to all; I don't know how many sheep tags they end up selling every year, but I'll bet they don't add up to anything close to any $200k....

Oh, wait... I went looking to see how many tags they actually do sell and found this: http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/licenses/supertag.html, so it appears that they are currently holding a pay-per-chance lottery through the supertag program, so that's cool...

Looks like they sold somewhere around 550 licenses in 2008 - pretty decent numbers, but you'd have to average $4 grand a pop in order to raise the kind of cash that the auction does, and the auction funds are probably earmarked expressly for the sheep, rather than going into the general fund or even the overall DNR/DOW fund.

So JMO, but if you're looking for someone to be angry with, I vote for the poacher...

[LeeInSC]

GF, that's good information, and I can see both sides of this.
I have just seen enough hot-dogging by law enforcement in my life to know that many of them, especially those trying to make a name and get a promotion, do a little more than necessary to make some cases.

If every state with sheep and goat tags would raffle off a hunt and include non-residents and residents at a low cost, they would surely raise $250,000 each year for sheep and goat hunting. Otherwise, just let the hunter groups like SCI hold a high-dollar auction or raffle and donate the money.