Glock....Shmock...

[Doug S]

Hi,

Shot my buddies Glock yesterday, not sure which one, they all look the same to me, full sized 9mm.

So...what is the big deal with these guns, somebody tell me why I need one?

His functioned well, the sights were OK, recoil management was so-so, but it was not terribly accurate. With Wolf ammo it held about 2" @ 30-40 feet from a good rest. That is not great in my book, my HiPower will top that easily, so will my 92F, my little compact S&W will do about the same but it's not considered a very good gun. I noticed the slide and bbl. could be moved while it was in battery, that can't be good for acuracy. The trigger was horrible, might be good for combat and that's fine but it certainly is not a plinker friendly feel. And that little safety thing in the middle of the trigger is anoying, ruins and sort of feel.

I know they are popular but I just don't get why. I modified my 92F and it's first shot/double action trigger pull is about the same as the Glock, it's reliable and accurate. Now I know it's quicker to get in action than a single action that's not clocked and locked so that's a plus, I guess.

What am I missing..? Not trying to start a fight, just looking for enlightenment.

Doug

[rimrock]

I try to run at least 500 cartridges thru a pistol and clean it several times before Ill carry it for defensive use,I carry a glock 10mm as a personal weapon,with the correct ammo, its reasonably accurate, powerful, and its the totally dependable, and almost immune to rust, and ,that is its the totally dependable powerful, and almost immune to rust,is the big selling point to me.
moisture, and resulting rust and potential for that damaging the gun over time is a major concern, if you carry concealed 24/7/365
I used to carry a stainless 1006 S&W,(still do some days) it required almost daily cleanings and re-oiling, I still do that with the glock but I see less indications thats mandatory with the glock #20
the S&W 1006 is noticeably more accurate and thinner in the grip,but I had one failure to feed,(bent magazine lip) in several hundred cartridges at the range and its exposed hammer can occasionally be a P.I.T.A., so its a trade-off,both work with good ammo, but the glock seems to be rather bullet proof in dependability.If I need to use it, it has to go BANG on the first and every shot after that, glocks are good at that!

[Hi Ball]

Shammrock.........Now if your looking for a "TARGET PISTOL" then spend the money and get the Glock that is winning on the pro-circuit savvy. The Glock is better suited as a self-defense weapon and that it does in SPADES.;)

Now most self-defense weapons will NEVER shot better than 2.5 inches at 15 yards, unless you handload for them in the first place, tune the trigger down to 3-lbs etc.

In case YOU don't know and evidently you don't!!! Glock has a series of things that can make a standard Glock a winner in tournament shooting and you don't need to spend several hundred dollars at a gunsmiths. YOU can do so yourself.

I have two Glock 10mm that will shoot the center out of a target at 15 yards, now that is 45 ft just in case you didn't take that math course.:rolleyes: Remember this, a GLOCK will go BANG everytime you pull that trigger and it is the same trigger pull through the entire magazine. Not like the SIG SAUERS understand.

The Glock also has twice as much ammo in the magazine as your normal 1911 models and it will fire under water. I rest my case and YOU need to do some research on GLOCK before you give your opinions period. The Glock is the best suited CARRY gun on the market today bare-none. I know because in my line of work sometime ago, I carried most of them at one time or another. My favorite being a pair of model 1911's.

[LampLighter]

Doug

You're not too far off. Glocks are popular because they are popular. Most people want to "do what is popular" to fit in. They push aside mechanical comparism to comply with " what everyone else is getting."

A champion IPSC shooter ( Mikulik) showed in an example long ago that the grip angle is all wrong for instinctive shooting. Many don't buy this because they don't realize when they go to shoot, they know they are going to shoot. The mind compensates by training the wrist to "curl down" .

A police officer entering a convenience store for coffee turns and sees an armed perp spinning toward him with a handgun, my friend it is all instinct at that point. Unless he trained, trained, trained big time for a surprise like that, he'll likely shoot the flourescent lights and get shot.

You cannot "go out and train" for this because your mind knows you are going out and training. Get it ? The only way is if your friends staged a training session and you didn't know about it until you had to draw. Otherwise, your mind would compensate by instructing your wrist to "curl down." Get something else. For an american man, the 1911 grip angle seems to be instinctively right on.

[Doug S]

Rimrock,
Good points about the maintainence and especially about the reliability. Reliability is a big part of the confidence you have in your weapon, for me it rates right after accuracy, that first shot is the most important one. I just don't feel the Glock is a natural "pointer", it seems to take work to get on target and keep it there. I treat all guns like a shotgun, a good shot gun is one that comes up and is right "there", same with handguns and long guns. If they feel good, I can shoot them good, if they don't I can still shoot them good but it takes work-(thought). That's not good when you need to shoot fast.

Doug

[Doug S]

HiBall,

I don't need to do any reasearch on a weapon other than looking at it and shooting it to give my opinion, it is MY opinion, saavy. What would you have me do, read a bunch of gun rags?

I don't give a rats behind if it shoots underwater, that's useful?

It's obviously a popular and good carry weapon, based on the ammount of departments that use it. But, in my experience, departments often get a 'one size fits all weapon', something that is fool proof. Not all LEOs are gun enthusiasts, a Glock is perfect for them because they are easy to use and maintain. That does not make them ergonomic or accurate, and just because "everyone" is using them does not make me like them. I'm funny that way, I like to make up my own mind.

But, I came here asking for opinions and I appreciate yours.

Doug

[Scout]

Doug,

Glocks seem to be the type of handgun that one either loves or hates. There's not a lot of in-between with the Glocks. I had a full size .40 (model 22) and traded for a mid-size .40 (model 23) which seems to fit my hand much better. For me, the thoughts behind the glock for a defensive pistol seem pretty logical. No safety's to fool with. Some built in internal safety designs to keep it from going bang at the wrong time. Not much on the outside to hang on clothing. Simple and reliable. As to it's popularity in law enforcement....the Glock came along at just the right time. Lots of agencies were changing from revolvers to auto...and the glock seemed to be a easy transition. You draw from the holster and pull the trigger. It goes bang. No manual safety's to train on.

There have been lots of arguments about grip angle and overall design. To me, the same can be said about ANY handgun. Pick it up....if it feels "right", you'll most likely shoot it well. If it feels lousy....you'll most likely never take a liking to it. I owned a Sig 239 that was the worse feeling handgun that I ever had in my hand. I kept it for almost a year and never did get used to the feel. Finally sold it. Does that mean that Sig 239's are horrible handguns? Most certainly not. Lots and lots of people carry that gun and it fits them well. My point is that each handgun will fit just a bit different to each of us.

As to my Glock....it fits me pretty well. I can shoot it as good as any pistol I own. It feels "different" in my hand....but then again, so does each handgun I own. For comparison...I also own FN, Springfield, Kimber and Colt...all of which feel a bit different in my hand. I have also owned Kahr, Beretta, Ruger, Sig. and Smith. Again, the Glock fits me as well as any.

As has already been said....they're popular. They fit enough people to boost sales. When everybody else is buying....others want to join in to see what it's all about. The simple design was conviencing enough to keep them around.

[Doug S]

Maybe I was in haste with my initial post, I kind of answered my own question. Just because they don't fit me doesn't mean they don't fit others and it doesn't make it a bad gun.

I was just expecting more from it, all I hear at the range is Glock this and Glock that, they have a Glock club and Glock only shoots. A number of LEOs run the shoots, give leasons and sing their praises to anyone who will listen. So I spent a little trigger time with one and just was not impressed. To be honest, I was not impressed with the shooting these LEOs were doing either. They shot fast, at large targets, and sprayed them at close range. I think most shootings happen under 10 feet so that's good practice for their line of work but to hear them tell it the Glock is the only gun that can do it

I should not be surprised, when I hunted deer with a 12ga I was told a rifle was better, when I used a 30-30 it was the 06 was better, my .243 was not good for ground hogs and my muzzel loader is not an inline so it's also no good. I'd love to take my HiPower to one of their shoots...LOL

Doug

[LampLighter]

Now Doug, not only did you not acknowledge anything I said, but now you are crawfishing. It is ok to disagree with the majority.

[Hi Ball]

DOUG.........Now for 25 years I hated the looks of the GLOCK!!!

Now I owned Colt Pythons, Colt Gold Cups & model 70 series custom worked on for competition. However, that never made any of them a true CCW type weapon. People today are more concerned with self-protection ok.

Now comes the Ugly GLOCK.....Oh yeah! It works everytime out the box and I just don't understand, what you are saying about not being a natural pointer either. At under 10 ft, I don't even use the sights on a Glock or any other pistol in order to hit the target. Those involved in true "combat training" and self-defense will tell you the same thing. POINT & FIRE....it takes practice yeah.

Now if you want a competition pistol for steel plates or other events, then your going to have to modify your pistol or purchase one made to do the job and those are far more expensive than any standard GLOCK on the market period. One can make a Glock into a competition pistols with modifications and those are cheap compared to a gunsmith hourly rate. I have such a GLOCK pistol with a 6 inch barrel and a 3.25 trigger pull and several other modifications done to the pistol. It was far less than doing so with a standard Sig or H&K or purchasing a KIMBER TARGET MODEL. Now just so you know, I own a Browning High Power in the 9mm Luger caliber and it will NOT outshoot my GLOCK at the range. It is also big and heavy in comparison.

If the accuracy is the BIG ISSUE with YOU, then forget about the out of the box GLOCK. However, most are accurate enough for what people purchase them for and that is self-defense. Target Shooting is a whole other world my dear man and those pistols don't come cheap either.

A KIMBER target model is over $1,200 dollars compared to the GLOCK at $580. A Wilson custom pistol starts at $2,300 dollars and goes upward from there.
I can tell you right now, my Glock 10mm model 20 will make hits on a head size target at 30 yards (90 ft) and off a rest, the pistol will do 2 inch groups at 20 yards with factory ammo. Now that is good to go in anybody's language.

The Glock is very dependable, there are NO safetys to sweep off in the heat of the moment!!! NO De-Cockers to worry about either my dear man!!! YOU just pull that pistol and fire.......YOU can bet your life on the GLOCK going BANG everytime out the gate. Now this BS CRAP about the pistol NOT being made properly, so YOU or anybody else can shoot instinctively is simply HOG WASH PAL and you don't know what your talking about period!!!

If the grip on a pistol does NOT fit your hand like a glove.......MOVE ON, as you will never shoot it as well as one that does fit your hand. Now there are custom grips available, that can take care of many fitting issues with a particular model pistol. Also there is a man who modify's GLOCKS to fit the hand of those who wish to shoot a GlOCK more accurately. You can find that man on the internet or go to AR-15.com

[Doug S]

Lamplighter,

I fully meant to reply but I got to googleing Glocks & accuracy and in particular LEO sites. I was up early yesterday morning I saw you were too, but I switched to my motor cycle sites and got hung up there...LOL

I understand what you were saying about training, but training does have it's benifits. Good training really comes into play when the chips are down and you are running on instinct, if cuts down the ammount of thought you put into something and quickens your reaction time. It won't make an inaccurate gun shoot better. When I was a pilot we had check lists for everything, eventhough we knew them by heart we read them befor each departure, just because it was good training. I went for a check ride with my friend Don as the check pilot, he was an old-school pilot who could probably fly a shoe box if it had wings. We were flying an old prop job and the preflight check list had you check the fuel cut off valve twice just to be sure it was on and I did. So we get about 50-100 feet in the air when the motor dies, the pucker factor is high because you are low and slow at that attitude and nowhere to go but down. First item on the emergency check list is to check the fuel valve, even though I had just checked it twice I checked it again, it was off. After I restarted and regained my composure, I looked at him smiling in the right seat, he had turned it off. He explained that when carrying passengers you never know what they might do, maybe someones kid was messing around or someone drops something and bumps the valves. Many people would have overlooked the valve since they just checked it twice and just tried the next item on the list. Fact is, we later had a guy get lost, run out of fuel and crash, he had become very agitated at being lost and when the engine died he forgot all about the check lists and training, he was in radio contact and it was sad to hear. When they recovered the wreck the left tank still had an hours worth of fuel, he had forgot to cycle the fuel valves. I knew him and he was a kick the tires and light the fires kind of guy.

I'm not back pedaling, The glock I shot did not live up to all the great things I've heard about, it pointed poorly, has a terrible trigger and therefor shot poorly-even from a rest which means to me they are not inherently accurate to begin with. What I did say is, just because I don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't have some redeeming factors for other people such as low maintenance, good carry qualities and great reliability. And, much of what I just said was born out by what I read on many of the LEO sites I browsed.

Almost nobody said it was as accurate as many of the other guns, especially the 92F. Many said it pointed high and they over corrected and shot it low/left for a right handed shooter when shooting fast. Professional training helped some with that. The trigger was also meantioned as a negative, except when it concerned safety and no double action.

Everyone raved about it's reliability, there were some comments about another gun being just as reliable for their use. Again the 92F

Many good comments about it being light, easy to draw and get into action.

Also, many liked the fact that you did not have to clean it, just toss it in the safe when your shift is over and grab a beer.

Much like my shotgun comparison in another post, you can hand me a 10,000 dollar shotgun, if it does not fit me, it won't shoot good and I won't like it. Now if it's only me that it does not fit then it is still a good gun, but if it does not fit lots of people then there is something wrong with the way it is built.

Doug

[Doug S]

Scout,

Can't argue with that & thanks. I have a S&W 586, great revolver, very popular, and I just can't get used to it. Shoots great off a rest and terrible in my hand, which makes it my problem. The thing that surprised me the most was the glock did not print well from a rest.

Doug

[Doug S]

HiBall,

Take a look at the history of gunfighting, accuracy kills.

When people had duels, the guy who shot first didn't always win, the guy who shot straight did. Take the old west, Hickcock was not a fast draw, but he was a straight shooter, shot a guy @ 75 yards with an 1851 Navy, one shot, while the guy was spraying multiple shots all over the place. It's really no different today, first person that kills the other wins and to kill them you have to hit them.

I'm in NJ now, nobody has CC here and if they are buying a Glock for home defence then all it's good carry qualities go right out the window. And, if they keep it for home defense I hope they don't leave it laying around loaded. They will still have to ram in a clip and jack the slide, so much for getting it in action quick, no better than any of the others for that application. So why do they buy it, same reason there was a rush to buy 92s when the government adopted them. While it really does not matter to me, I can't help but wonder why so many people around here buy them and then take them to the range for target shooting. I'm all for practice but I have a gun that shoots about like the Glock, I certainly don't brag about it and it doesn't see much range time either.

As you can see, accuracy is number one for me, followed closely by function, those two things added together equals a handsome gun to me. A gun's actual looks has nothing to do with my opinion, I'm not that shallow. The number of guns you have owned does not add credibility to your posts and you have no idea of my training, experience or collection. So when you say "I have no idea of what I am talking about", it's really you who has no idea. While your posts here are not without merit they seem decidedly beligerant and very loud, like my sainted mom always told me, the people who talk the loudest often have the least to say. It's almost like I called your dog ugly and you got offended.

Doug

[Sidekick]

Doug, I like your style. I have a 586 also in .357 mag. I bought it new twenty years ago and love it. Maybe you need different grips? What bike sites do you visit? I just mothballed my 1500 Drifter for the winter. The KLR stay out all year though. Been thinking about a V-Strom.

[Scout]

Scout,

Can't argue with that & thanks. I have a S&W 586, great revolver, very popular, and I just can't get used to it. Shoots great off a rest and terrible in my hand, which makes it my problem. The thing that surprised me the most was the glock did not print well from a rest.

Doug

Doug,

I may be able to help you out with that little problem. Firstly, package that poor shooting 586 up. I'll send you the address to my FFL and you can send it right over to me. Problem solved:D

As to the Glocks accuracy....mine seems to shoot pretty good. It's at least minute of soda can at 15 yards:D

[MOGC]

I once had the occasion to function check and shoot/sight-in 18 individual G-22's when a local municipal police department transitioned from the revolver to the G-22 .40 S&W Glocks. I did this check out by myself on a quiet range day with two types of Federal factory ammo. Not one of those guns could break much under 3" at 25 yards for five accurate benchrested carefully aimed shots. I also had a 1911 .45 ACP and a S&W K-22 .22 LR with me that day. I could shoot groups of 1 1/2" with the .45 and less than that with the .22LR revolver so it wasn't my squeezing that was off. The G-22's shot between 3" - 4" and that is probably good enough for a general issue service weapon, but I couldn't call that "accurate" by any stretch. It is center of mass accurate and if that is what you need it is exactly what you can expect from a box stock Glock handgun with decent off the shelf factory ammo. I and six other officers later shot over 2,000 rounds each of Federal American Eagle 180 gr. FMJ-FP through the guns in a four week period. Our guns all suffered various small parts breakages or malfunctions in this time frame. Extractors were the main culprit, though a few front sights flew off also. The Glock is about as good as any other high quality service style handgun with regular maintenance and use. No more - no less...

[Hi Ball]

Doug S. _______Sir, I give a Rats Behind if you call any one of my 22 dogs Ugly!!! There purpose serving me it to produce the best field dogs possible for pointing birds in the field. Now just so YOU know, all of those breeders are out of National Field Trial Champions.....FACT!!! It just me be a type of ugly that many hunters perfer and understand. I don't raise Show Dogs Doug!!! I raise the best damn bred hunting GSP'S East or West of the Mississippi River.

Now YOU buy or carry what you wish, GLOCK is selling guns not because somebody yelled out loud to do so. They have a purpose and they serve that perpose very very well as a concealed carry weapon. The facts speak for themselves. No safety to sweep off and NO De-Cocking lever to jack around with either. I rest my case!!! Accuarcy only has to be so good dear fellow and if you can hit that 9 inch pie plate, your good to go period. YOU don't need or want a 1.5 inch target gun for use as a Carry Gun, keep things simple, most have adjustable sights, which are NOT the way to go.

I already know you don't have a CCW permit because you would not be worrying about all that accuracy!!! The TRUE FACT is Doug, on the street, where 85% of the action is these days. It all takes place in less than 10 ft away and in doing so, YOU won't even have time to "aim" that pistol with your sights. I know because I been there more than once in past years, long before CCW was even thought about I dare say.

The requirerments for getting a CCW Permit at the range are simple: You just hit the target at 21 ft a total of 15 out of 20 shots and that target takes in a very large area, much larger than a 9 inch pie plate. There are those who have made thousands of dollars using the 9 inch pie plate in combat drills using a pistol. Now as far as me having a loud mouth, well that remains to be seen but I don't let anybody try to tell me something I know is NOT the case.
I am a far better shot than most Leo's on the streets today because I don't take carrying a gun for granted and do put in the time to practice a bunch.

My carry guns are GLOCKS and will remain so until something else comes along that can bump them into the vault. GLOCKS were NEVER meant to be target pistols out of the box but can be made to shoot with the best of them in tournaments.....check things out if you like. However, my Glock 21 & 20 are good to go from 3 to 90 feet and you can take that to the bank. I am done at the range at least twice a week shooting with the Leo's & FBI and know what it takes to become a solid shooter on the range but on the street is a whole new ballgame and you can forget what you learned about target shooting when it comes to putting your life on the line, while on the street or driving in the big cities.:rolleyes:;)

[Doug S]

Sidekick,

You are spot on about the grips, the trigger guard bites my middle finger with heavy loads. I have large hands and tried the Hogue (sp) grips, they didn't hurt but they were too small. The gun shoots great with 38 wadcutters. My taste in revolvers has migrated to old west guns, I shoot cap n ball and their cartridge coversions, all with black powder. Properly done they are amazingly accurate and too much fun to describe. So the 586 (and others) sadly sit in my safe.

Bikes, yeah man!!, nothing better than your knees in the wind and that right hand twisted all the way around. I'm no "biker" but I love the Harleys, in particular the EVO models made in the 80's and 90's. They are carburated with almost no electonics, just nuts, bolts, iron and steel,-(and of course CHROME & NOISE-LOL). But I'm not one of those guys who looks down on metric bikes, they are true machines, utterly reliable and fast as heck. Your average sport bike will smoke my top end in 2nd or 3rd gear, I respect that. I picked up a 94 Softail Custom this year from the original owner, I was riding a 99 but it had been dropped and I didn't trust it. Only 22K on the clock and the paint/chrome is perfect, not even swirl marks. It has a crane cam with all that goes with it, runs like a top, no, it just sings when I take it through the twisties. It's getting near time to put it to bed but this time of year is great, that carb'd engine loves the cool/dense air and there are no bugs:D. One of our mechanics is rebuilding something I've never seen, it's a Yamaha or Kowisaki, inline 4 cylinder(left to right), each cylinder has it's own carb, aircleaner and exhuast. What a machine, it looks to be 10-20 years old, do you have any idea of what it is?

Here is where I hang out:
http://hdforums.com/forum/index.php
http://www.hdtalking.com/index.php

Doug

[Doug S]

Scout,

Tell ya what, I'll trade you for the minute of can Glock of yours...Seriously, cans make great targets, unless I'm tuneing or dialing in a gun, I get bored with paper targets really fast. Cans, golfballs-(what else are they good for-heheheh)-small steel plates are my targets of choice, forgot bowling pins at longer ranges.

I also had a 686 with rubber grips and could not shoot that good off hand either, they both kind of sit too high in my large hands, from a rest they are awsome. But I shoot my buddy's Python really well, single or double action. I think he'd sell it to me but he hates the fact that I shoot it better than him so he won't part with it, atleast to me. We are good friends.

Doug

[Sidekick]

Doug, I have larger than average hands but I get along fine with the factory walnut grips that the gun came with although now that you mention it heavy loads do occasionally bite me a little. Still like it though.

Harley's are a little rich for my blood but I do admire them. I work with several guys that are avid riders and most of them ride hogs. I agree with the statement about no electronics and carburetors. Trouble free and easy to work on. My trouble with the big cruisers is that I live down 4 miles of gravel road and that's why I lean toward the dual sport bikes. I just am sick and tired of wrestling an 800 lb. chrome recliner down a dirt road. If Harley made a dual sport I would give it serious consideration. I'm not sure what your friends bike is but if it's an in-line 4 cylinder Kawasaki from the 80's my first guess would be something like a KZ1000 or similar (KZ750, 900, LTD1000 etc). Those were good reliable and FAST machines. They still sell for good money if in good condition. I ride my KLR650 all year. It might sit for a few weeks here and there in the winter but on the occasional warm sunny day I have to get it out. I'd have ridden it today if it wasn't for the rain. And mud.

Nice talking to you, Hope you have good ridin' and shootin'. (just don't mix the two)

[Hi Ball]

MOGC............Now all I can say is that you and the rest of those officers with the 22 Glocks you tested, surely must have received a BAD BATCH ( or department seconds perhaps) to say the least. Now I have put almost 3,000 rds through a Glock 22 that is only 2 months old, another 3,000 rds through a Glock 17 by my wife and I, not to mention 2,000 rds through a Glock 26 before we got rid of it for a 27 model.

Not one time did or has anything on those Glocks or ours broke!!!.....FACT. A friend of mines trigger went bad on his Glock but that was after some 12,000 rds fired. I remember reading about another police agency somewhere (slips my mind at the present) that stated they too had a lot of problems with their GLOCK service pistols.

They then opted for the Sig-Sauer model P-229 but later found out, over half those on the department force, could NOT hit the target in front of them on the range with the first shot in the double action mode. I venture to say, that their are more GLOCKS in the hands of LEO'S around the world, than any other make of pistol on the market today.;)

[Doug S]

I already know you don't have a CCW permit because you would not be worrying about all that accuracy!!! The TRUE FACT is Doug, on the street, where 85% of the action is these days. It all takes place in less than 10 ft away and in doing so, YOU won't even have time to "aim" that pistol with your sights. I know because I been there more than once in past years, long before CCW was even thought about I dare say.


There ya go again HiBall, making statements without knowing the facts. I may live in NJ now and not carry but I come from Pa. We had carry permits way before many of the states that have them now. So I do know the requirements, responsibilities, and the repercussions of carrying a firearm. If I had to use it, I would not mention that experience here to try and add substance or credibility to my posts. It's not something people normally brag about and most work hard at trying to forget it.

As far as the 10 foot gunfight goes, I already stated that in a previous post. Going back to Hickcock, he also shot people at close range, with the same gun he used at 75 yards. If it's accurate at long range it's going to be good close in, I'd rather have the confidence in a gun to do both.

It's a good thing there are many choices so we all can be happy.

Doug

[Doug S]

MOGC

I'm surprised at the reliability issues but the accuracy results are about what I would expect. I'm guessing that you have had them in service for some time now, how are they holding up?

Doug

[Doug S]

Sidekick,

LOL on the 800lb chrome recliner. and I wouldn't have one either if I had 4 miles of gravel in front of me every morning.

Ride safe buddy..

Doug

[MOGC]

I do think we had a bad batch of extractors also. Glock sent out replacements with an explanation of a redesign of the angle of the extractor hook or some such. The new extractors ran fine as far as I know for the department. They have their own people handling those responsibilities now so I don't keep up with their gear now. The front sights were all doped with some red locktite to prevent that from happening again. Only a few were problematic, but in emergency gear you plan for the worst case scenario and so I did a little work on them all just in case. A few choked here and there with various common semi-auto malfunctions like stovepipes. Some of that may have been associated with a few of the unorthodox shooting positions we were required to fire from in this training and a "weak wrist" syndrome could have happened occasionally. The point being, nothing is perfect and there are no absolutes. I too often get tired of the fanaticism and defensive posture demonstrated by the drastic plastic crowd. I’ll say it again; Glock is as good as any other, no better and no worse.

[Doug S]

Thanks MOGC, "Drastic Plastic Crowd" is an excellant description.

I go to the range with my buddy and he shoots his Glock in their Glock only matches so I watch. He's a pretty down to earth guy who just likes to shoot matches so he got one. But some of the people I talk to while watching are almost rabid about how great their guns are. I just figured I'd ask for opinions here.

Doug

[LampLighter]

Glock is as good as any other, no better and no worse.



Yeah, but it still has the incorrect instinctive point angle on the grip. You know you are goint to the range to shoot, your mind knows, and sends signals to muscles in the wrist to "curl down". No good for a police officer entering a convenience store and stumbling upon a robbery, with perp swinging toward him with a gun. I still say the Glock is popuar only because it is popular. Most civilians look left look right, see what the "popular" handgun is, and buy what is "in" so as to "fit in."

[MOGC]

I certainly have no argument with any of that LampLighter. I think another reason for the popularity is the low price point offered to LE agencies. I don't know what they sell for now, but about ten years ago a department price on a G22 with night sights and three magazines was about $375.00. Of course the "bean counters" loved that and many cops aren't gun guys anyway, so the guns found their way into police holsters all over based as much/more on price rather than performance or what is the best gun to arm the troops with.

[Scout]

I know one other selling point for the Glock for LE use is the fact that the gun is pretty simple with few parts as compared to some other handguns on the market. Glock really pushes training for armorers so individual departments can perform pretty much all work needed without sending back to the factory.

[billt]

The best comparision of the Glock, (you pick the flavor), isn't to other handguns, but to the AK-47 Assault Rifle. It is rugged, reliable, functions in the absolute worst of conditions that will stop other semi auto handguns dead in their tracks, requires little, if any lubrication, field strips in a snap with very few moving parts, and is extremely simple to operate. Cost is very affordable, and it's been produced in very large numbers, and used worldwide with great success.

Again, like the AK-47 there are more accurate guns, better looking guns, more powerful guns, guns that fit someones appendages better because it does or doesn't have this, that, or the other thing that rubs, interferes with, doesn't line up with whatever as good as XYZ, etc.

The Glock, is the most copied pistol in the world. Before it's introduction polymer framed handguns hardly existed as any more than a novelty. No other handgun has accomplished in the last 25 years what the Glock line has accomplished. All over the globe no less. In spite of that it is not a gun for everyone. No gun is, or ever will be. But if I had to exist in an unfriendly world, where my life and property was in danger, and I could have but one handgun and one rifle, my choice is easy. A Glock, and an AK-47. If I then died it would not be because of inferior weaponry. Bill T.

[Hi Ball]

BILL-T, You sure did put a very informative lid on the subject of GLOCKS! :cool:

Yeah, that stock Glock won't win you a medal at the Olympics but just might save your ARSE in a good old fashion street confrontation.;) :)

Hello Folks!!! Now don't tell any of those GLOCK competition people that GLOCKS don't shoot accurately or they may just pull out their awards and paste you in the face with them.:eek: :D :D :D

Now another thing people, nobody on the pro-circuit shooting these days has a pistol that has not been worked on to some extent, changed parts, sights, holsters etc. This is far from the person who is using a pistol in self defense mode on the streets.

I see far to many people using the stock glock pistol to shoot very good scores and this same pistol is used everyday, while on their person as a protector of the US-Mail.:)

[Hi Ball]

Lamplighter the Glock is popular because it has proven itself amoung the departments all across the world period. This BS of the angle of the pistol being not right for a person to point the gun is ludicrous at best. The same issue as comparing a Bisley grip of a single action to a grip of a Colt Peacemaker! If it doesn't fit your hand, then don't buy the pistol. I don't purchase a shotgun to shoot trap because the guy next to me just shot a perfect score, the gun has to fit ME first etc. Now if it does not, I go on my way and find what does work for me understand, it is that simple Lamplighter, open your eyes to the real situation and solution for crying out loud. You must be drinking some of the home brew KOOL-AID our friend MOGC talks babbles about sometimes.

The Glock offers the least amount of FELT recoil, of a particular caliber in a handgun in the industry because of the way that barrel is close down to the hand for starters. If this was not so, my wife could NEVER shoot my model 20 "10mm" Glock in the first frigging place.

Now I can tell you for a fact, there is less recoil to the Glocks because my arthritic right hand tells me so my dear man and it does not LIE one iota. I went to GLOCKS for this purpose understand. I have hated the looks of Poly Guns for over 30 years and simply refused to jump on any band wagon because someone states they are better than a Colt or Smith & Wesson.

I sir have been and still am in many things, the tuffest sell anyone will ever come across period. I ask the questions and put the item through the tests. In all honesty I still don't like the looks of GLOCKS compared to my luster blue Smith & Wessons or Colts.......those are pieces of artwork in my eyes but on the other hand, artwork is NOT going to save my A$$ come time to draw and fire that pistol if needed savvy! The GLOCK SURE AS HELL WILL MY MAN.;) This is all that counts in my eyes and the reason I carry GLOCK pistols.:cool:

[MOGC]

our friend MOGC talks babbles about sometimes.



Ok, I guess I "babble." And I suppose you are somehow entitled to make that statement? Pretty careless aren't you... :(

BTW, for your viewing pleasure...

http://www.wtov9.com/news/21866969/detail.html

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb2.html

Ain't that a bitch! Things that make ya go hummm...

[Hi Ball]

LOL MOGC!!! I knew that would make your eyebrows rise an ince or so.:D
I bet you spilled your KOOL-AID on your lap right? Cheers Amigo!:D

[MOGC]

No response to the two links posted, huh? There are plenty more out there, I just ran across those while looking over a handgun section of another board last night while I was pondering how easy you throw "stuff" around. A more detailed and specific search can show many more instances of firing out of battery, ect. It was interesting that you failed to acknowledge those links. Go back and look them over, many people drunk and under the influence of "Kool Aid" fail to see details or accept facts they are presented with.

[MOGC]

BTW, you can Google "Glock KaBooms" and read of this sort of stuff until you puke your Kool Aid.

[billt]

BTW, you can Google "Glock KaBooms" and read of this sort of stuff until you puke your Kool Aid.

If Glocks are so bad, how about you educate all of us by telling us of a better one? Bill T.

[MOGC]

If you look for a better handgun, first you have to admit that Glock's aren't all that GOOD either. Until you realize that you'll never open your eyes to any other possibilities.

[billt]

If you look for a better handgun, first you have to admit that Glock's aren't all that GOOD either. Until you realize that you'll never open your eyes to any other possibilities.

I don't have to "admit" anything. You're rambling. Stop dodging the question. If Glocks are so bad, point all of us to a better, more well designed, reliable handgun. Bill T.

[MOGC]

I don't ramble, evidently I "babble." Actually I never said that Glock was bad, just that they aren't invincible. However, evidently when you disagree with a Glock fanatic in any way you get labeled and ridiculed. The Glockster goes on to ignore whatever you have to say, so what is the point? I’ll repeat, Glock “may” be as good as any other high quality semi-auto defensive handgun – but no better than many others. Glock is not invincible and may in fact have some serious flaws in the design as evidenced by the links posted. But you don’t want to hear that and ignore addressing those issues. Whatever dude…

[billt]

I’ll repeat, Glock “may” be as good as any other high quality semi-auto defensive handgun – but no better than many others.

Whenever I hear Glocks bashed in one form or another, there is one thing that escapes me, and always sticks out. No other gun is mentioned. Zero. Zip. Nada. It's always "Glocks aren't, this or that". Or else, "Glocks go Kaboom!" Or, "Glocks point at the Moon when you draw them". Or, "Why doesn't the Army use them." Or, "They give them away which is why the cops use them".

It's like a bad auto loan from a guy in a plaid suit. They won't mention the facts, or hold it all up to the light and do a direct comparison. You know why?...............................

IT'S BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY CAN'T, PERIOD!!

That is a fact. If it were not you would see it everywhere. You don't because they can't That is the plain and simple truth.

Are Glocks infallible? No, of course not. Are Glocks the most accurate? No, of course not. Do Glocks have the crispiest trigger? No, they were never designed to.

Now, with all of that said, and please pay attention:

Glock pistols are the best, most cost effective, well designed, easiest to operate, most dependable, semi auto handgun on the market today. As I have said before, and will keep on saying, if there is a better one, let me know, and back up your choice with conclusive data, AND I'LL BUY IT. Bill T.

[Hi Ball]

HEY MOGC........Well I am very sorry your feelings got touched in such a way over my words. I promise to NOT say that you babble any more on this forum OK. Now that should make you even smile about those GLOCKS you seem to have gotten you so disgrunteld over the years.

However, I am NOT a GLOCK FANATIC Mr. Leo, on the contrary, I am a man who has realized the values of said pistol simply put. It works for me and I don't have a problem with that ok.

I would like YOU to tell us all, just what pistol you believe is better than the Glock for doing what it does......not speaking of going Kaboom either ok. Seriously, I want to pick your brain as to what is the better handgun on that market today for LEO work or CCW......:D

[Doug S]

Methinks the Glockaholics doth protest too much.

The point of this thread was and is, many Glock owners are rather overzelous in their praise of the gun. To the point of ignoring the facts, and MOGC has done a fine job of showing this.

Asking which gun is better is like going to a good mechanic, picking a wrench out of his tool box and asking which other one in the box is better. There is no real answere because there are too many jobs for just one type of wrench. I look at the Glock as I would a pair of vice grips, it will eventually turn most bolts but none of them good. Not my first choice for a tool but they have their uses.

Doug

[billt]

I'm not a "Glockaholic", or whatever. I want to own the best defensive semi auto pistol on the market to protect my life with. Once again I'll repeat myself. If there is a better, more reliable, better contructed, better designed auto pistol on the current market other than Glock, please tell me what it is so I can buy it. Enough with all of the "Glockaholic" crap! Bill T.

[MOGC]

It's a Ford vs. Chevy argument - period. Except in this case one of the brands has an occasional catastrophic failure which seems to be ignored and goes unaddressed for some odd reason. Your refusal to make any statement about the well documented Glock KaBoom syndrome is exactly what is referred to as “drinking too much of the Glockster Kool Aid.” Like it or not that is the perception you give by ignoring the posted links. Buy what you want, nobody else cares. P.T. Barnum said it first, “There’s one born every minute…”

[Hi Ball]

Geez MOGC.......Please before Bill .T gets his bloodpressue up! Just give us both the name of the pistol that is BETTER than a GLOCK in self-defense. Now this has nothing to do with LEO made Kool-Aid or eating your Twinkies on the riverbanks.

I hunt with a handgun called a Smith & Wesson model 29 and now a .460 caliber S&W. However, that does not make me or anyone elks a so called Smith & Wesson A-holic or does it?

GLOCK is the very best CCW weapon on the market today bare-none my young man and you know it for a fact. Those big heavy 1911 models are only suited for a very few and that is a true statement else the military and the LEO'S all over the country would be saddled down with them.

The truth of the matter and this post is simply this, there is NO BETTER weapon of choice for the CCW carry weapon! You can pick your caliber but GLOCK is the way to go period.:cool::cool::cool:

[MOGC]

Geez HiBall... you are still ignoring the question of the...
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KaBoom!

[Hi Ball]

MoMo-GC........NO I am NOT!!! I have had seen Ruger's blow up, Colts go KaBoom, Harrington Richards go Boom and Kimber's mis fire and go Boom.

Now if a GLOCK goes Boom or Ka BOOM big deal, no gun is perfect right!

However, there is no BETTER gun out there for CCW carry and you damn well should know that being an Animal Cop! :rolleyes: :eek: :eek:

Now this thread on the GLOCKS going Ka-Boom is dead as far as I am concerned, how about posting something a little more in tune with what people acatually want to read about in the world of handguns.:D

[MOGC]

Yep... never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Good luck to you...

[GF.]

Well, honestly, Hi-Ball.... As a potential handgun buyer, I have to say I'm pretty damn interested in learning that a handgun as popular as the Glock might have a higher-than-expected incidence of failure.

A buddy of mine is former Airborne - actually a couple of buddies of mine - and one is now part-time law enforcement... He likes his Glock .40 and he also likes the 1911.. The other buddy likes a Sig, for what that's worth....

The one who often carries a Glock likes it because of the simple way the safety works, but I haven't asked if he has heard anything about failures.

And while I'm here.... I just re-read Hi-Ball's post on Sigs, and from that, you might just think that both Hi-Ball and Bill T were lifetime members of the Sig Fan Club. Both of you guys seem to have nothing but good things to say about them, but as soon as somebody asks 'what's so special about Glocks?' you guys act like he just insulted your mother or something...

Is it possible that Glock is simply one of many good products out there, with its own set of virtues and shortcomings just like everything and everybody else? Or were you lying to yourselves and each other when you said all those nice things about the Sigs?