209 primed muzzleloaders

[Smitty5]

I guess all my guns are old tech. None use 209 primers and I've read a lot of sniveling about them pushing the load out of position before the powder ignites and how dirty the 209 primers are. I thinking about getting one of the longer barreled fast twist break actioned rifles so I can play with pointed bullets, get kicked, make nice groups way out ther etc. I plan on using loose powder so what are the things I need to know?

[Twanger]

I guess all my guns are old tech. None use 209 primers and I've read a lot of sniveling about them pushing the load out of position before the powder ignites and how dirty the 209 primers are. I thinking about getting one of the longer barreled fast twist break actioned rifles so I can play with pointed bullets, get kicked, make nice groups way out ther etc. I plan on using loose powder so what are the things I need to know?

You can buy 209 Muzzleloader primers that have far less power than normal 209 shotshell primers to avoid having the load jump off the seat before ignition. Some years ago we started doing this using 209 primers for .410 shotguns until they started marketing them as 'muzzleloading' primers. :rolleyes:

209 primers are much cleaner than #11 caps, waterproof, and much less corrosive.

I shot almost an entire container of Blackhorn powder in one range session over the summer in my Encore doing 5-shot groups in a big trade-sheet of bullets (6 kinds) and powder loads (3 kinds) trying to to find a fast/accurate load with 175-240gr bullets. I didn't find nirvana, but did find that 300gr shockwaves shoot really well with stupidly heavy powder loads... if you can tolerate the recoil. I never did get the MV I wanted in light bullets, around 2100-2200 fps, and these guns are not strong enough to move a 300gr projectile that fast. I wouldn't recommend going over 120gr T72F with a 300gr projectile. This seems to be about the biggest load a magnum-class BP gun like the Encore should have loaded. I was trying 120gr loads with 180gr projectiles, hoping for 2200 fps (see my chart, other post) but the accuracy was not there... getting something like 1.25" or slightly larger 5-shot groups at 50 yards. The 300gr Shockwaves would print a one-hole group at 50 yards but are only clocking around 1800 fps. I'm sure they'd hit like a ton of bricks. :D

A buddy of mine just bought a Savage 10MLII and is shooting smokeless. He's getting pretty good accuracy out of some pretty hot loads. I can't quote you the exact specs, but will talk to him. If I didn't already own 7 muzzleloaders I might consider buying the Savage. It's a great gun from everything I've read, and my buddy's experience bears this out.

[LampLighter]

Smitty

I shoot CCI 3209 out of my Encore. I shoot 110 g of loose 777 with handgun bullets in a sabot. I never had any problem at all. I shoot 45 cal hornady xtp mag out of a .50 cal Encore.

[Smitty5]

#11 caps are dirtier than the 209 primers? Just how much would I gain by going to a 209 primered 50 with a 28 inch barrel over my present 24 inch barreled rifle using caps? The Firehawk is a 1 in 38 inch twist and has never had any problem stabilizing 300 grain pistol bullets. I'd bet it will shoot the lighter pointed bullets just fine. I have shot a pound or two at muzzleloading matches and generally swab between shots and matches. These matches are generally traditional style using round balls and not a lot of powder every shot. What should I consider usable range with the latest muzzleloader rifles and how much would I gain over my present "Old Tech" inline which is at least a 150 yard rifle with pistol bullets.

[Rattus58]

#11 caps are dirtier than the 209 primers? Just how much would I gain by going to a 209 primered 50 with a 28 inch barrel over my present 24 inch barreled rifle using caps? The Firehawk is a 1 in 38 inch twist and has never had any problem stabilizing 300 grain pistol bullets. I'd bet it will shoot the lighter pointed bullets just fine. I have shot a pound or two at muzzleloading matches and generally swab between shots and matches. These matches are generally traditional style using round balls and not a lot of powder every shot. What should I consider usable range with the latest muzzleloader rifles and how much would I gain over my present "Old Tech" inline which is at least a 150 yard rifle with pistol bullets.

You'd gain nothing. With the exception of the propellants that require a propellant igniter, like Blackhorn, I've heard, you'd gain nothing. Almost everyone I've talked to tells me that when it comes to gunpowder, you want the least amount of ignition necessary to light it off and.... for the most part, that has been my exact experience.

Aloha... :cool:

[Twanger]

I agree Tom. If you have what you consider a 150yd gun you will not extend that range in any meaningful way if you continue to use BP or subs. You will need to go to smokess muzzleloading to get a true 200yd gun.

[Smitty5]

It is a 150 yard gun as far as accuracy. I can easily hit a paper plate sized round steel gong at 200 yards when the wind is light. I'm pretty sure it will hit hard enough at 150 yards with the 300 gr bullets I am using now. However in all my years hunting whitetails I'd say 99% of them were less than 100 yards away that I shot at. Even the Mule deer I have taken, only one was more than 200 yards out and the vast majority were within 150 yards.

[psj12]

I have a Knight Bighorn and have the #11, Musket cap, and 209 primer hardware. I found I am able to get better accuracy at the rang with the #11s. It seems the smaller pressure they exert on the charge does have some effect. Musket caps are the next best and 209 are last. ther is only a growth of about 2-3 inches in group size from the 311s to the 209s. I always use 209s for hunting for their reliability.

[Crockettnj]

I have no experience with the savage smokeless gun, but IMO/IME the firehawk is a terrific little rifle. My dad has one and I shoot it a bit, and I think its underrated. wonderfully accurate with 80-100 grain 777 and 240-260 grain pistol bullets in sabots. It shoots 250 grain QT's quite nicely at 50 yards, havent done 100 yet.

Its slim and attractive as well.

300 grainers w/ 150 yard accuracy, imo, you have the gun. Anything else is not about need but want. Which , of course, there's nithing wrong with!

[Twanger]

psj12 - welcome to the forums!

[alan]

Although I have no facts to back it up, I have always thought 209's were only introduced in order to give reliable ignition to pyrodex pellets which are harder to set off than loose powder. Of cource this was before BH-209 came out.