Preventing patch burnout/damage

[Smitty5]

One of the reasons I use a minie ball in my 54 Renegade barrel is because I have trouble with patch integrity unless I use unreasonable light charges in my RB loads. I thought about putting a cotton ball on top of the charge and tried it. The snivel is having to go put out the smoldering cotton ball after a shot. I use pillow ticking for patching.

[Twanger]

Try a fiber wad between the patch and ball.
This SIGNIFICANTLY improved accuracy with heavy powder loads in my 50-cal Hawkin.
It does like conicals too, though. :D Hornady 385gr Great Plains.

[GF.]

Hmmmm.... I've always shot loads of up to 110 gr. of FFF (Goex!) and no worries with either spitpatch or wonderlube. What do you consider 'unreasonably' light?

But FWIW - and if you can get hold of a supply of it - wasp nest material on top of the powder charge, then patch & ball. That was the traditional solution, or so I'm told...

Have you recovered your patches? Seems to me that an oversize powder charge would burn through, whereas a rough patch in the rifling would cause cuts. And really, if the issue were the charge size, then nobody wold be able to shoot the heavier loads, not just this rifle or that one. Anyway, seems to me that it's something unique to your rifle, which suggests to me that it would be something about your bore.

And Twang - I'm kinda surprised that you can get good accuracy with a wad under the ball, because I wouldn't expect that you'd get good engagement with the rifling unless that ball's in there tight...:confused:

[Smitty5]

60-70 grs of Pyrodex. However the balls I was using were the Remington plated balls. I will try 100 grs. of Dupont FFFG and some Speer non plated balls.

[Sabre]

I use pre-lubed T/C "bore buttons" in my .50 cal. T/C Hawken. My hunting load is 75 grains of Goex fffg under a .490 ball with a .015" pre-lubed patch. Shoots nice little clover leaf groups at 50 yards and has proven effective on deer out to 75 yards.

[Twanger]

And Twang - I'm kinda surprised that you can get good accuracy with a wad under the ball, because I wouldn't expect that you'd get good engagement with the rifling unless that ball's in there tight...:confused:

I was using 0.490 Remington "Golden Balls." These are copper plated. They went down the barrel kinda (but not very) tight without the patch but didn't group all that well... maybe 3-4 inches at 50 yds. With the pre-lubed fiber wad they group about 1.5" at 50 yds, and that's about as well as I can shoot in excellent light with iron sights. I don't know why it work, and really just tried it on a whim, and nobody was more surprised than me that it worked. I've gone up to 90gr 2F powder with it, but that steel butt-plate bites you pretty good with 90gr. 70gr is much more civil.

[GF.]

I just about flirted with those ‘brass balls’ at one point, but the Hornadys grouped so well (you remember my infamous 50-yards, ragged hole sight-in group, I’m sure :D ) that I decided to shoot a few more critters widdum and haven’t looked back since. They just plain work.

Tight Patch = Groups Tight; Groups Tight = Hits Right; Hit Right = Dead On Site. :cool:


I would think, though, that if Sabre can kill deer neatly with 75 gr. under a .490, a guy ought to get much the same from a .530 or a .535….


I was actually wondering about the lower limit for a .54 hunting load. Not ‘trick shot’ low, just ‘practical minimum charge’ kind o’ low. The full-house loads boom like the screen door o’ hell slammin’ shut, so if a guy could get by with a lot less fanfare, that’d be worth pursuing out here….

.44/40 and .38/55 loads come to mind…. Hell, .45/70, for that matter…. 40 grains is a great plinking load, but do you guys think it would retain a solid 350 fps or so after punching through the hide?

[howdydoit]

If you want to try a wad with out spending money right away. Go to an old barn or shed somewhere and pull down some wasp nest. Squeeze it down and cut it to fit your bore with (knife or scissors).

this will at least let you know if a wad will help your group and it will fix you patch problem. if you like it then you can get some felt wads or just stick to the nest material.

Howdy

[captchee]

first thing i would do is start reading my patches and find out why the are crapping out .
maybe something as simply as using a better lube or better weaved patch .
they will also tell you if your problem is rough or sharp areas in the rifling as well as if your ball is slipping the patch


i have never shot the plated balls . though i have shot pure brass balls
i can tell you those shoot well and penitrate like demons possessed

[Rattus58]

Good grief... if you want to put a wad under the ball, cut some cardboard... wasp's nest.... sheesh.... if it's the blast that's causing the problem, block the blast. Fiber wads are the best in my opinion, but anything works, round or square, but a boresized wad works best in my opinion. I use a .511 wad in my sons 50 but some are .518 that might be tight, but work nonetheless.

Much Aloha... :cool:

[captchee]

typical .
dont fix the problem just carry more junk and ignore it .

same line of thought seems to be how our goverment is working .

.
again , find out whats wrong , fix it , spend less money , less crap to carry around

[Rattus58]

What makes you think a wad won't fix it? Patches "burn" for one reason only.. it's too damn hot.

Why so hot? Patched ball too tight and patch too thin. Wrong patch lube. Wrong twist and/or too heavy loads

Fix... Thicker patch, better lube, but now you have to deal with accuracy.
Nope... they used a buffer back in the day, they still use it today.

It's true that somethings can be done to fix a burnt patch, but if you've got accuracy issues, fix that first, obviously, and usually that fixes the burnt patch issues, but... sometimes the patch needs the wad and the guns shoot swimmingly... I use a wad no matter what anymore with a patched ball.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[captchee]

no rattus .
puttin a wad in doesnt fix the problem as to why a patch burns .
what it does is cover it up and keep the patch from burning

i have to get to work , ill give you a better answer later today when i get home .

all i can do is say is trust me , if the patch is burning through , there is a reason . if the time is taken to study the shot patches , they well tell you what that reason is ,
when thats fixed , there will be no need for a wad unless one just wants to use one.

now there is a good reason for using a wad , ill try and cover that as well .
right now i have to get so be safe and ill talk to you alittle later

[DaveHawk]

"What makes you think a wad won't fix it? Patches "burn" for one reason only.. it's too damn hot."

No Chit you would be hot to if you had 100gr. fired up under your back side LOL

All the matches and shooting I've done, I only used pre lube patching, sometimes I get some red residue on the patch from all the powder not being fired in my 54 but why would you want anything other then the ball seated tightly with a patch against the charge.? Sometimes I get burn throughs in my patches once is a while they will smolder. But if my shot is dead on I really don't mind what the patch is doing after the shot as long as it is doing it's job.

[Rattus58]

Hi Captchee...

I'm pretty clear on patch burning. The flame beats the ball/patch. From what I have read, know, experienced, patch burning comes from using the wrong ball/patch/lube combination. I've been lucky for the most part in my roundball shooting in that I'm hunting and not target shooting and so any lube seems to work for me with roundball guns.

I've used crisco a lot, I use a ballistol/soluable oil for target shooting and only one gun suffering patch burning above 85 grains of powder and that gun had all kinds of problems with the barrel.

For one thing Captchee... you have to understand that many people don't want to have a love affair with their guns. So let me give you a newsflash, if it means hours on the range trying to "fix" the problem "your way" or spending an extra 15 seconds and carrying a wad and getting the SAME OR BETTER accuracy.... I'm betting on the wad.

I went through Dutch Shoultz's book, have spent quite some time with him on the phone and have a very accurate 40 and 58 as a result, but in order to have an accurate rifle, you have to spend the time, before, during and after the shot...

But let me pass on the advantage of the wad to you that "fixes" a lot of the problems in "learning" the patch and ball properly.

1) with the wad, you pour whatever amount of powder you want into the barrel that will shoot your bullet accurately.

2) with the wad, you pour the powder, tamp the powder with your wad on the powder and then load the patched bullet to the wad without "mashing it".

3) with the wad your need for a properly slicked patch is reduced, you need for a tight weave patch is reduced, your need for a 6:1 or 8:1 oiled patch etc and you can use whatever patch your gun likes as long as it doesn't "strip" or get cut.

3a) Speaking of cut patches, although you're not gonna get any accuracy from one, you don't have the patch flaming out either leaving a carbon residue in your barrel.

4) The wad compartmentalizes the patch/ball to let it do its thing without interference. Whatever you say about the wad, you're not getting any converts here... meaning ME. I love the wad.

5) the wad also has one other benefit, you don't have to "mash" the ball onto the powder. This way you get a constant loading technique that gives you an edge in accuracy.

Amen.... :)

[DaveHawk]

Thanks for explaining the WAD Rattus. I may have to check it out now that I am aware of the difference. Although I have never seen a need for using it my groups at good , well good enough to hit small. :)

[captchee]

Ok lets start from the very basics then for you .
Yes heat is the killer of patches . But it has to get in , around and through it to do that .

Why is it that say rifle X a 50 cal , will shoot 100 grains of 3F behind a .490 patched round ball with a .010 patch ,,,,, And not burn the patch ?

Yet rifle Y shooting the same load , burns the patch up ?

Is the powder some how hotter in rifle X ?????

Nope

We have to look at the patch to see why rifle Y is having a problem .
Sometimes its simple like sharp rifling that allowing the patch to compromise and burn through
Other times its that the ball slips the patch , creating a pocket . If the lube is a poor lube and thus can protect the patch , it will burn though and fail because now the patch is being hit on 2 sides with heat as does not have the lead ball to insolate it .
Same with the patch weave . Just because a patch is .015 thick , doesn’t mean it’s a good patch material .
If its to lose of a weave . The heat also attacks it because the lube burns away between the weave ,
Now add to all that , just 1 or 2 sharp spots that cut the patch , OR loading with a patch ball combination that stretches the back of the patch and what do you get ??????
Incinerated patches .

This can happen even with a lose fitting patch ball when the ball is loaded over the fouling of a previous shot

What does you wad do .
2 things .
a) it keeps the gas away from the patch
b) it creates a cushion .
This cushion changes the way the ball obitrates under pressure .

Because of A ) the gas doesn’t get to the patch as much . So issues with the bore , like sharp rifling cannot burn through as easy . It also reduce the gas pressure leaking past , which throws the all off as it leaves the muzzle . But It does not mean the patch has not been or is not being compromised I some way
A patch being cut , stretched or torn still effects the ball and its accuracy even if its not being burn through .
This is why many target shooters use wads . Because a wad helps take reduce the magnification of small issues in the bore . Thus making it possible to fine tune a load even more then what one can do with . Patch , lube , projectile and powder .

The best way IMO to deal with these issues is not to add a wad , but to ask , why is it that my rifle is doing something, that other rifles are not .
Whats the issue . I submit to you this
Fix that issue , then apply the wad and you will find that you have increase accuracy even more then what you had when you through your hands up and stuffed the wad down there .
It doesn’t take hundreds of hours , it takes no longer then to go out , pick up a few patches , see whats going on and fix the issue .

shaking my head ....... funny how my 54 does not burn up patches tell 110 grains of 3f powder , nore does my wifes 50 even with 100 grains of 3F and a .010 patch

But you know what rattus , what do I know .
As you stated your well versed in this and apparently have a vast more considerable knowledge then I do on the subject .
So 2 thumbs up to you bud , you got her down packed with nothing more to learn

have a good one

http://http://thereifixedit.com/

[Sabre]

Ok lets start from the very basics then for you .
Yes heat is the killer of patches . But it has to get in , around and through it to do that .

Why is it that say rifle X a 50 cal , will shoot 100 grains of 3F behind a .490 patched round ball with a .010 patch ,,,,, And not burn the patch ?

Yet rifle Y shooting the same load , burns the patch up ?

Is the powder some how hotter in rifle X ?????

Nope

We have to look at the patch to see why rifle Y is having a problem .
Sometimes its simple like sharp rifling that allowing the patch to compromise and burn through
Other times its that the ball slips the patch , creating a pocket . If the lube is a poor lube and thus can protect the patch , it will burn though and fail because now the patch is being hit on 2 sides with heat as does not have the lead ball to insolate it .
Same with the patch weave . Just because a patch is .015 thick , doesn’t mean it’s a good patch material .
If its to lose of a weave . The heat also attacks it because the lube burns away between the weave ,
Now add to all that , just 1 or 2 sharp spots that cut the patch , OR loading with a patch ball combination that stretches the back of the patch and what do you get ??????
Incinerated patches .

This can happen even with a lose fitting patch ball when the ball is loaded over the fouling of a previous shot

What does you wad do .
2 things .
a) it keeps the gas away from the patch
b) it creates a cushion .
This cushion changes the way the ball obitrates under pressure .

Because of A ) the gas doesn’t get to the patch as much . So issues with the bore , like sharp rifling cannot burn through as easy . It also reduce the gas pressure leaking past , which throws the all off as it leaves the muzzle . But It does not mean the patch has not been or is not being compromised I some way
A patch being cut , stretched or torn still effects the ball and its accuracy even if its not being burn through .
This is why many target shooters use wads . Because a wad helps take reduce the magnification of small issues in the bore . Thus making it possible to fine tune a load even more then what one can do with . Patch , lube , projectile and powder .

The best way IMO to deal with these issues is not to add a wad , but to ask , why is it that my rifle is doing something, that other rifles are not .
Whats the issue . I submit to you this
Fix that issue , then apply the wad and you will find that you have increase accuracy even more then what you had when you through your hands up and stuffed the wad down there .
It doesn’t take hundreds of hours , it takes no longer then to go out , pick up a few patches , see whats going on and fix the issue .

shaking my head ....... funny how my 54 does not burn up patches tell 110 grains of 3f powder , nore does my wifes 50 even with 100 grains of 3F and a .010 patch

But you know what rattus , what do I know .
As you stated your well versed in this and apparently have a vast more considerable knowledge then I do on the subject .
So 2 thumbs up to you bud , you got her down packed with nothing more to learn

have a good one

http://http://thereifixedit.com/

My patches don't burn through even without the bore buttons but accuracy improves noticeably when I add the wads anyway. I don't know why and I don't really care. All I know is I went out yesterday and shot an 8 shot group on a target at 60 yards and all the holes are touching so the bore buttons are staying in my load.

[Rattus58]

Ok lets start from the very basics then for you .
Yes heat is the killer of patches . But it has to get in , around and through it to do that .

Why is it that say rifle X a 50 cal , will shoot 100 grains of 3F behind a .490 patched round ball with a .010 patch ,,,,, And not burn the patch ?

Yet rifle Y shooting the same load , burns the patch up ?

Is the powder some how hotter in rifle X ?????

Nope

We have to look at the patch to see why rifle Y is having a problem .
Sometimes its simple like sharp rifling that allowing the patch to compromise and burn through
Other times its that the ball slips the patch , creating a pocket . If the lube is a poor lube and thus can protect the patch , it will burn though and fail because now the patch is being hit on 2 sides with heat as does not have the lead ball to insolate it .
Same with the patch weave . Just because a patch is .015 thick , doesn’t mean it’s a good patch material .
If its to lose of a weave . The heat also attacks it because the lube burns away between the weave ,
Now add to all that , just 1 or 2 sharp spots that cut the patch , OR loading with a patch ball combination that stretches the back of the patch and what do you get ??????
Incinerated patches .

This can happen even with a lose fitting patch ball when the ball is loaded over the fouling of a previous shot

What does you wad do .
2 things .
a) it keeps the gas away from the patch
b) it creates a cushion .
This cushion changes the way the ball obitrates under pressure .

Because of A ) the gas doesn’t get to the patch as much . So issues with the bore , like sharp rifling cannot burn through as easy . It also reduce the gas pressure leaking past , which throws the all off as it leaves the muzzle . But It does not mean the patch has not been or is not being compromised I some way
A patch being cut , stretched or torn still effects the ball and its accuracy even if its not being burn through .
This is why many target shooters use wads . Because a wad helps take reduce the magnification of small issues in the bore . Thus making it possible to fine tune a load even more then what one can do with . Patch , lube , projectile and powder .

The best way IMO to deal with these issues is not to add a wad , but to ask , why is it that my rifle is doing something, that other rifles are not .
Whats the issue . I submit to you this
Fix that issue , then apply the wad and you will find that you have increase accuracy even more then what you had when you through your hands up and stuffed the wad down there .
It doesn’t take hundreds of hours , it takes no longer then to go out , pick up a few patches , see whats going on and fix the issue .

shaking my head ....... funny how my 54 does not burn up patches tell 110 grains of 3f powder , nore does my wifes 50 even with 100 grains of 3F and a .010 patch

But you know what rattus , what do I know .
As you stated your well versed in this and apparently have a vast more considerable knowledge then I do on the subject .
So 2 thumbs up to you bud , you got her down packed with nothing more to learn

have a good one

http://http://thereifixedit.com/

You know Captchee... one of your problems in MY OPINION is that you can't read. If you can read, you don't take the time to actually read the words with the goal of understanding them.

I don't know if I have more experience with this than you do or not, but one thing for sure, I don't pretend to be the expert about it. I will tell you what I know, what I've experienced, and what I do.

You can choose to go back and read what I wrote or not, I frankly don't care. As for wads, I don't give a fat furry rat's ass whether it covers up a problem or not, and frankly Captchee, I don't believe that anyone else that uses wads successfully do either.

I will tell you one thing where I PERSONALLY BELIEVE that you are dispensing conjecture at best.. and I quote... b) it creates a cushion . This cushion changes the way the ball obitrates under pressure .


Be kind enough to tell me about this.

Aloha... :cool:

[captchee]

My patches don't burn through even without the bore buttons but accuracy improves noticeably when I add the wads anyway. I don't know why and I don't really care. All I know is I went out yesterday and shot an 8 shot group on a target at 60 yards and all the holes are touching so the bore buttons are staying in my load.





well here is probably why
Sorry for my spelling as I miss spelled the word . Its called obturation

There are two basic thoughts as to what happens right at ignition to a RB
1) is that the projectile begins to move instantly with the pressure wave and thus comes out just like it was loaded
2) is that the projectile obturate’s or expands under pressure . This is what projectiles like bore size conical’s are based around ..and how they seal the bore on firing .


Obturate means to block or obstruct[1]. . The mechanism by which an undersized soft metal projectile enlarges to fill the barrel is, for hollow-base bullets, due to expansion from gas pressure within the base cavity and, for solid-base bullets, upsetting - the combined shortening and thickening that occurs when a malleable metal object is struck forcibly at one end.

Some years back we had a very good and LONG discussion about this on one of the gunsmith forums as to if the Rb actual obturated or not .
Some said yes , others no .
Finaly someone posted a short slow motion Xray of a RB being fired from a barrel . It showed clearly that that ball deformed on the powder side where the instantaneous pressure pushed against it ..

Your cushion helps this . In that it acts very much like a cushion in a shotgun load . In that it helps absorb the initial pressure.
Also if one shoots a hollow base conical and has problems with blowing the skirt . A wad can help reduce or stop that .
It does not keep the projectile from Obturating , it just helps control it and evens it out . Thus reducing the instantaneous shock

Also as I said in my post . If you not having an issue with blowing patches and your barrel is shooting as it should be , you may just find that adding a wad will even tighten your group more .
IE one more component to fine tune things to a greater level .
Thicker wad , thinner wad , lubed wad , un lubed , even different densities , like felt , cork even compressed paper or fiber ,,, alll can make changes .

This is why many long range shooter also use wads . if you set down and talk to one that’s truly serious , specifically about the wads they are using , they will tell you they have spent time finding just the right density and thickness of wad as well what mix of lead alloy and paper patch thickness , they have found that give the best results in their rifle .

Why ? Because they are trying to ring every last minuscule of accuracy from their rifles .
Accuracy that sometimes mean 1/8 of an inch variance at 240 yards will place them in the top 5 or out of the running completely .

Now do we need to worry on this for a hunting load ? Nope most everyone simply smiles and is happy with a sub 1 inch group at 100 yards .

Again this is why I said what I did . I must apologize here as I should have worded it different .
So let me try again

If you are shooting a load that is burning up patches , there is a reason . Of which there can be many . Bad lube , bad patch material , rough rifling , sharp rifling . To thin of patch , to tight of patch or any combination of the above

If a person finds out WHY that’s happening . Fix the problem , then adds the wad , you may be even more happy . Especially if your results are satisfactory when you just add the wad and did not fix the patch issue
If the reason the patch is burning up is 100% heat then everyone shooting that load or greater would also be having the same issue . Would they not ?
.
Since that’s not the case , we have to conclude that something is happening to the patch that’s allowing the heat to compromise it .
Remove the heat and you still have that issue and its still effecting the patch .
How great or how small that issue is still effects your accuracy .

Fix that problem then add the wad and you just may find the rifle never shot so good

Now there is an exception. Lets say you add the wad , then go down range an pick up the patch . You find the patch is perfect, no issues IE , no thin spats at the base , no tearing , thinning or holes along the lands and groves .
Then I submit that the only issue is that you were using to thin of a patch for your load .
This also isn’t uncommon .
I shoot with folks who use waxed and un waxed paper for patching .
They also use wads to protect the paper .

So maybe that’s the case with this person here .??/ cant say

[Bill Gunn]

Back in the late 70's or early 80's when I started with flintlocks I used up an entire summer finding the loads the guns liked for patched round-ball for deer hunting. I enjoyed all the flintlock shooting on my back yard range (though I must say my wife wasn't so happy with the smell in the house when I cleaned them in the set tub :) ), so I was in no hurry to rush the process to get good results.
At that time (around here anyways) the load most guys were using was either 100, or 120 grains of 2 or 3 f.
I started with 2f, but then tried, and stayed with 3f, 100 grains.
Trying to get them as accurate as possible I tried all sorts of patches, dry lubed, wet lubed, and 5, 10, and 15 thous. thickness, and even cut a bunch of my own from cloth my wife picked up for me. I read somewheres that it was worth trying "double patching" to get a little more accuracy.
It worked real well with one of the guns. I just start a dry patch after the powder, then seated the lubed patched ball over the dry patch.
I don't know if it stops the powder from picking up varying amounts of lube, depending upon how long the gun sits loaded, 2 min. at the range vs a long hunting day or what. All I can say is that it works for me in one gun.
The other gun shot better with pre lubed dry lube patches, and the "Double Patch" did not increase accuracy, so I don't use it.

I always just figured that it was more of a "What works for you" thing :)

[Rattus58]

Back in the late 70's or early 80's when I started with flintlocks I used up an entire summer finding the loads the guns liked for patched round-ball for deer hunting. I enjoyed all the flintlock shooting on my back yard range (though I must say my wife wasn't so happy with the smell in the house when I cleaned them in the set tub :) ), so I was in no hurry to rush the process to get good results.
At that time (around here anyways) the load most guys were using was either 100, or 120 grains of 2 or 3 f.
I started with 2f, but then tried, and stayed with 3f, 100 grains.
Trying to get them as accurate as possible I tried all sorts of patches, dry lubed, wet lubed, and 5, 10, and 15 thous. thickness, and even cut a bunch of my own from cloth my wife picked up for me. I read somewheres that it was worth trying "double patching" to get a little more accuracy.
It worked real well with one of the guns. I just start a dry patch after the powder, then seated the lubed patched ball over the dry patch.
I don't know if it stops the powder from picking up varying amounts of lube, depending upon how long the gun sits loaded, 2 min. at the range vs a long hunting day or what. All I can say is that it works for me in one gun.
The other gun shot better with pre lubed dry lube patches, and the "Double Patch" did not increase accuracy, so I don't use it.

I always just figured that it was more of a "What works for you" thing :)

Hi Bill.... You are one of the fortunate ones. Today for example, I get to shoot this afternoon after roughly 2:00 PM to get ready to go hunting tomorrow. This is typical at my range where I don't get time because of work to do this during the week.

Most folks I know don't have a range to shoot from, don't have the time to shoot.

Much Aloha... :cool:

[chucknor]

I just about flirted with those ‘brass balls’ at one point

Nothing I like more than the expression on the store clerks' face at the local sporting good store when I ask him if he has brass balls. :)

[rimrock]

Iive had excellent accuracy and no hint of patch burn or bore fouling in my 62 caliber hawken, but I load 110 grains of 2f down the bore followed by a cotton ball, then a bore size dab
of murphys flax soap then a patched ball with the patch having been soaked in flax oil paste
the result is the expanding powder gases compress the collum and squeeze out the soap into the rifling and the cotton ball whipes the bore on each shot, the cotton ball keeps the powder dry but the soap paste gets hammered into the cotton ball so it seldom even smokes
use this process and you can shoot dozens of shots between minor bore cleaning, I get 2"-3" 3 shot groups with iron sites off the bench at 100 yards almost every time at the range

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