is it your skill or your rifles accuracy that matters

[rimrock]

we all know guys that have rifles that shoot tight groups, and guys thay get upset when they can,t shoot groups under 1" off the bench rest, but theres no bench rest in the field!
what I find amazing is the guys that work endlessly to shoot 1" or smaller groups of a bench rest, who then go hunting with the rifle ,never having practiced from field positions or with a sling, and then can,t understand why their 1" rifle can,t hit a deer at 100 yards to save their live,.
if you don,t know how to shoot from a standing or sitting position, or use a tree to help sturdy a site picture, without that darn bench rest,how in hell do you expect to hunt???
my 340 will shoot reasonably tight 1.2" groups off the bench, but with a bi-pod in the field a 2" groups fairly common, and theres no elk Ive ever seen that a rifle that shoots a 4"-5" group at 200 yards won,t kill
but Ive put up 10" diam. paper plates thumb tacked to the backers at 100 yard ranges for 30 plus years and placed a 2" orange dot on the center and used those as targets, for shooting off hand,and sitting, Ive had guys snicker when I hit just off the orange dot,firing almost as fast as I can work the action for three shots in practice and Ive yet to find one of the guys that was laughing that could keep all 3 quick shots anyplace on the plate, when challenged
a bench rest allows you to get the sights precise, but its a sling , and a bi-pod and the practice that results,in you becoming a decent shot, from the quickly acquired field positions you can actually use, in the field, and that constant practice, thats required to build that skill, means,you need and must have,spent a good deal of time shooting, to become proficient, that's mandatory, and its that constant practice, that makes it almost mandatory that you hand load with today's ammo cost
having a rifle thats able to shoot 1" groups of the bench is nice, but having the skill to use it to consistently shoot 2"-3" groups in the field at 100 yards is a far rarer skill

read these

http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.com/

http://www.huntingriflesreviews.com/whitetail-deer-hunting-rifles

http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/accuracy_1001/

[GF.]

Barring a complete gunsmithing disaster, it's the operator that matters in the field. A good shot is more deadly with a 3 MOA rifle than an average-to-crappy shot with God's Own Tackdriver.

Guns don't miss targets, People miss targets. :mad:





:D

[swamp]

All that being said an accurate rifle still has an advantage over a rifle that isn't as accurate...

[Badger]

rimrock,

You ask an interesting question. I use the bench at my nearby club or in my backyard to find accuracy loads for my rifles and handguns and to set the sights/scopes. Once that is done, I spend the rest of my time shooting accurate loads Zeroed for specific arms from hunting positions. When shots go wide, it is my fault and not the scope or handloads.

At my nearby range, I often toss out my shooting mat on the ground adjacent to the firing line and fire 20 or 40 rounds from standing, sitting and prone before deer season. The bencher guys often ask what is this about. I stole your "line" and reminded the guys there are NO benches in the woods. Your post is an excellent question for all to ponder.

I know my guns and loads are up to snuff, the REST of the Equation is MY responsibility. I shoot all year around and am still learning.

Badger

[howdydoit]

Like the other posters here,

Im going to say both. Clearly just about any rifle out there will shoot better (mechanicaly) then with any human pulling the trigger.

Practise of fundamentals will get the human part shooting well, load development to ensure your rifle ammo is tuned for said rifle, and the rifle itself is that last part of the equation. If its built well it should outshoot any human. Should = not all do, ive seen a few bad rifles.

"you shoot your rifle from a bench to prove the rifle, you shoot your rifle offhand to prove the shooter".

howdy

[rimrock]

one of the few really inaccurate rifles Ive ever owned was a chinese SKS, I bought it used for $78, and sold it shortly after for $78 with about 80 rounds of ammo to a buddy who said he wanted the challenge, to get it shooting correctly,after seeing it shoot, 12"-15" 100 yard groups ,but after I sold it THE NEW owner found that particular rifle was very finicky, about the ammo it liked., once he found ammo it liked it shot 3" hundred yard groups, but even that SKS has been used successfully several times on our Florida deer and hogs where ranges seldom exceed 70 yards, in fact its been his truck utility rifle now for over 12 years, he likes it simply because its accurate and powerful enough to consistently get the job done, and if it were to get broken, or stolen, hes out less than $80, he now likes that rifle, as its consistent, with his handloads

[pepaw]

If the rifle is not consistent, doesn't matter how good of shot I am.
So unless you depend on close targets or good luck, I want an accurate rifle.

stumpy

[Sabre]

after I sold it THE NEW owner found that particular rifle was very finicky, about the ammo it liked., once he found ammo it liked it shot 3" hundred yard groups, but even that SKS has been used successfully several times on our Florida deer and hogs where ranges seldom exceed 70 yards For many years I deer hunted in a shotgun only zone with a smooth bore 12 gauge slug gun. The best it could do With it's favorite loads was 4" at 75 yards. You'd need a good sized barn to hold all the deer I killed with that gun over the years.

[Hi Ball]

To me it is a combination of both! I won't have a rifle that is not acceptable in accuracy and to me it must be able to break the barrier of 1-MOA @ 100 yds. Now most of my rifles will do much better than that with my handloads. Why even my big bores will shoot 1.5 MOA or better, exception being the .475
mag, a .470-Capstick with a tad larger chamber. It does shoot 1.7-MOA, still working up loads for that rascal......Ouch!:eek: :D

My marksmanship is owed to 3 men (US ARMY Sergeants) who groomed as well has honed my shooting skills on the rifle range years ago. using an M1-Garand rifle. They also instilled importance and the want into my soul, to always shoot to the best of my ability, and striving to become better the next shooting session. To many young troops that were at Fort Leonard Wood, those 100 & 103 degree days in the hot Missouri sun while marching to the rifle range seamed pure agony. However that was not the case for me. On the contrary, I thought it as being a test of manhood and later on took great pride and pleasure knocking down targets with my battle weapon.

[Silvertip]

Both equally important.

Ideally what you want is a good shot with an accurate rifle-with this scenario good things will happen.

Accurate rifle-- poor shooter--miss or wound is bound to happen..the rifle alone will not be enough to prevent disaster.

Great shooter- inaccurate rifle---miss or wound is bound to happen...the shooter alone will not be enough to prevent disaster.

The worse scenario being a poor shooter combined with an inaccurate rifle.Guaranteed disaster.

[Joe Boleo]

As has been stated, both are equally important and should not be separated.
Take care...
Joe

[Altjaeger]

A modicom of both are required, but an extreme of neither is demanded. Rifle team qualifications nor MOA are normally necessary for most big game hunting.

[LeeInSC]

Skill.
A component of skill is knowing what your rifle is capable of doing.
Being able to judge the range and wind is the first thing you must do, no matter how accurate the rifle.

Yesterday, I was plinking with my nieces and nephews, using their not-too-accurate pellet rifle. As the range increased, they missed more than they hit. I missed my first shot, compensated for bullet drop, and banged 3 in a row, to show them how to adjust.

[Bushman]

Confidence in what I am using I'd say plays a bigger part than accuracy or my own skill level. While I love to carry and shoot my 7mm-08 custom with it's match grade barrel and high end Euro scope, my confidence in that rifle for my kind of deer hunting has been thoroughly challenged. I do know how to work a bolt action pretty quickly and that rifle has a black Teflon coated action so smooth it is, but there is just something in my head that keeps me from shooting in less than ideal circumstances out hunting. I've resisted shooting at all or this year a second time when I should have or would have with something that fed faster. I've let too many mega bucks slip through by not shooting. That mental block has cost me some nice bucks and I won't be using that bolt action rifle next year. I know that you gun guys don't like my semi-auto alternative, but beauty is as beauty does. Sub MOA she isn't, but for me it is Mind Over Action.

[Chuck S]

Both are important but the ability to shoot under field conditions usually outweigh the accuracy issues of the rifle. Whether it's bench rest or hunting accurate, the rifle will usually be up to the task if the shooter performs. Shooting a big game animal isn't a three or five shot group thing, it's that first shot that counts.

[billt]

The AK-47 isn't known for it's accuracy, but it has killed more than any other weapon. Bill T.

[Hi Ball]

I know that most factory rifles sold today are by far more accurate than those hunters who will be using them in the woods and fields etc. Now just how accurate does a rifle need to be to harvest a deer at less than a 100 yards I ask you?

I once knew a man who hunted with a 23 inch barreled 12 gauge shotgun using Remmington slugs back in those days and he shot a deer almost every season as I remember. That shotgun was lucky to keep things inside a 6 inch circle at 75 yards!

A rifle that shoots a 2-MOA at 100 yards, is plenty accurate enough to kill deer or black bear at that distance. Now put that rifle in the hands of a hunter who is lacking in marksmanship and you could have a rifle that shoots 6 or 8 MOA at 100 yards. However, it is still good enough to hit the vitals of any deer standing broadside.;) :)

[billt]

I know that most factory rifles sold today are by far more accurate than those hunters who will be using them in the woods and fields etc.

Amen! There is way too much made today of hunting rifle accuracy, simply because of what you have just pointed out. How many hunters practice shooting from field positions before their annual hunt? Very few if any. Most are "one box a year shooters". They half a$$ check zero off a sleeping bag or some such, then it's off to their favorite spot. They'll buy the best camo from Cabela's, wash them in anti scent soap, put down "Dr. Dooglehick's Super Deer Piss" and never fire a shot offhand, or kneeling at a paper plate at 100 yards.

Under those circumstances it matters not one bit if their rifle shoots MOA or 4 MOA, anymore than giving a set of $4,000.00 custom golf clubs would to a 3 digit golfer. A good rifle does not make a marksman. A good marksman makes the rifle. Bill T.

[rimrock]

I think many new hunters would be best served with a single shot, not a repeater,until they learn shot placement and control over their nerves
a few years ago, one of my friends had a son that was at the time 18 and hes been hunting with his dads old 30/30 lever action for several years and having shot several deer hes been complaining about the rifles accuracy
(Ive shot that rifle, its VERY ACCURATE)
the problems rather obvious(to me) and its NOT THE RIFLE, or CALIBER ,its the kid, has a tendency to (SPRAY & PRAY) with the lever action
so I got together with my friend, and his son and took him down to a local range and had him practice a few dozen shots with my 6mm rem in a browning 78 falling block which with the correct hand loads shoots 1/2" hundred yard groups.
stressing its accuracy.... AND THAT hes only got one shot...
I let him take that rifle on his last hunt,that year, but I gave him only 3 cartridges, and told him I expected at least two deer so he better pay close attention to deer anatomy and shot placement, and take excellent care of my rifle and not scratch it up.
he dropped his first deer shot with that rifle, almost instantly , because he knew he only had the one shot and he had to make it good,so he placed it exactly like we told him(above the heart)the deer jumped and landed and kicked, a few times but that was it.
the kid brought back the two loaded cartridges to show me,
the kid thinks that rifles amazing, but its not the rifle its the kids attitude and attention to detail, that changed, the 6mm rem is no better than his dads 30/30 at the 50-70 yard deer shots hes likely to get around here

[billt]

I think many new hunters would be best served with a single shot, not a repeater,until they learn shot placement and control over their nerves.

I completely agree. My first rifle was given to me on my 11th birthday by my father in November of 1963. It was a single shot Remington Model 514. With it I learned good shot placement, and how to properly use iron sights. It also prevented me from wasting ammunition. In most hunting scenarios if you miss with the first, you're not going to connect with the second. Bill T.

[billt]

I'll let you guys in on a little "secret" I started doing that is a TON OF PURE FUN! Instead of going to the range with spotting scopes, high dollar bench rest set ups, meticulously loaded ammunition, and a bunch of tiny targets you can't even see with the naked eye at 100 yards. Try taking your hunting rifle, a cheap pack of paper plates, a staple gun, a ton of the cheapest ammo you can get your hands on, and have at it offhand at 100 yards. You'll go through a lot of ammo, but you'll have a blast doing it!

I do this all the time. It's the reason I bought all of this .30-06 Ball ammo a while back.

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6332/cmp3006ammo1ca2.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/726/cmp3006ammo3rz3.jpg

Guys tell me, "What did you buy that stuff for? You can't hunt with it!" No, I can't, but it will make me a much better shot, and give me something to use my rifles for all year around.

My range has steel gongs set up at 200 yards. Some are 12" others vary in size up to 24"+. Man hole cover size. I take a cheap can of that fluorescent orange contractor spray paint and paint them when I get there, and it makes it real easy to see the hits. I even bring a couple of handguns for the added fun factor. It's a good way to make more use out of your expensive hunting rigs, and have a hell of a time doing it! Bill T.

[Jorge Lopez]

Nothing beats practice. It builds confidence. But where does the confidence begin, it begins with an accurate rifle that is predictable. Even the best rifleman will not know if it is luck or skill that makes the shot with a less than "accurate" rifle. In hunting your target is not the whole animal, it is at the very least the vitals and depending on the range, the accuracy of the rifle comes into play. At point blank range, inside 50 yrds lets say, you will need a 6" spread to make a decent if not so ethical shot and be aiming dead center of the vitals when the trigger breaks (assuming this is a modest size whitetail). As the distance increases the accuracy and the skill of the rifleman must increase exponentially. In this equation only one of the two variables is able to be made a constant and that is the rifles accuracy. Either get the most accurate rifle you can or take steps to improve the accuracy of your rifle. Many things can be done to improve the accuracy of a rifle and rarely is there a totally lost cause. Once you know your rifles limitations you need to improve you shooting skills to a level to maintain a reasonable assurance of making a vital area shot at a distance both your rifle and your skill allows you to. Any other shot that is made you and your prey are buying a lottery ticket. The easiest and cheapest way I know how to improve your shooting skill is to practice dry firing your rifle and remembering the site picture as the trigger breaks. Be sure to take the necessary precaution to insure not damaging your rifle like using dummy rounds. Live firing will cement your skill by getting you comfortable to the rapport and recoil with visual verification of success. Hasta despuse, Jorge

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

How the Heck are you Jorge? I was thinking about you just the other day! you're absolutely right about the Dry fire practice. It's the best way to know when the trigger is going to break and when the rifle is going to fire.

Alan

[Jorge Lopez]

Doing great Alan, I hope you and yours are doing good. I have been off so long I am now a junior member! I am not hunting this season since I gave up the lease last year (my boys could not hunt with me anytime soon) and I am getting bored. An old group of friends just took up a new lease relatively close by and they are asking for me to join them next year. I been invited to sit in a blind and kill a hog if I like in order to check out their new lease. I was unable to go during Thanksgiving so they gave me a rain check. I bet you are ready for Christmas break so you and your boys can do some serious hunting. All the best. Hasta despuse, Jorge.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

The boys and I are going to try to get together for a few days Jorge. We (my boys and I) are going the direction that nearly all families go. We are finding ourselves scattered to the wind and following different courses, picking up new obligations and responsibilities. They are growing up and I am growing old. I'm not telling you anything new though. I take my moments when I get them all together very seriously and I guard those minutes jealously. I always remember what my friend Bill Whitworth told me, "Alan, take your boys hunting and fishing every chance you get, because someday it will be over, and when it's over .......... It's over." He was right. That may be what has me in such a funk right now. I can see the end in sight. It's the end of "the way it used to be", I just have to find a "how it's going to be" to get interested in now.

Good luck to you too.

Alan