The kid needs a better deer bullet.

[Bushman]

My step-son called me from his deer stand this morning needing to vent because he just wounded his second big buck this season. He shoots a .30-06 and hunts a brushy section. I helped him sight in so that I know that the gun was on when we left the range. He wanted to get 165 grain bullets, but he waited too long and all he could find was the cheapo 150 grain Federal Power-Shok SP in the blue box. My experience with 150 grain non-bonded bullets out of a .30-06 is that they cannot always be relied on to give complete penetration. No snow this year and the deer are not leaving adequate blood trails. He said he shot two does this morning and they both went right down which tells me the bullets are coming apart fast. The bucks were not hit that well, but he lost both of them because of lack of blood and another 8 point that their dad shot. What a waste!

These are big deer in the 180 pound dressed range and Jake is not above taking any kind of shot angle that he can. I've personally liked the 165 grain Hornady Custom Interlock at 2700 fps out of my .308, but I'm wondering if something like the Federal Fusion 165 grain bonded bullet might be even better? Years ago when I switched the entire deer camp over to the 180 grain Remington round nose Core-Lokt we never lost another deer hit anywhere with that bullet. For a lot of years it was the bullet of choice for the Benoit's too, but while it is still available there might be even better bullet choices now. What has been your recent experience with blood trails and complete penetration with .30 caliber bullets inside 100 yards? Thanks.

[Sabre]

It always puzzles me to constantly read of people shooting deer after deer with this or that bullet out of .30-06's, .308's, 270's, 7mm-08's etc. and telling of them running off 100 yards and leaving no bood trail. Meanwhile I just keep stacking them up year after year with my lowly .30-30 and 170 grain Silvertips. I just shot another with that combo last weekend. Got the usual 50 yard dash-n-crash with half dollar exit wound and blood trail that looked like a red carpet. So much for high velocity with lots of energy and expensive premium bullets. Think I'll just stick with what works over and over and over again.:rolleyes:

[purple heart]

I shoot 165 Hornady interlocks in my 308 and have never lost a deer.
One did need another shot but that was my fault. The first one wasn't
where it should of been.
I shoot 180 Hornady interlocks in my 30-06. I tried 165s but they just didn't
shoot as well in my gun.
A lot of success has to do with confidence and these are the 2 bullets that
I have confidence in.
You might want to try a better bonded bullet if you're going to be shooting
deer from any angle. A long raking shot on a heavy deer needs a pretty
well put together bullet.
The federal fusions or an interbond would probably hold together better
for sharp angle shots. JMO:)

[postoak]

I shot 1 deer with a .30-06 150 grain bronze point, hit just behind the shoulder, and missed a rib, and the bullet went thru with no expansion. I hit 2 with the .308 WCF and 150 Remington Core-lokts at 210 and 50 yards and got similar flaky behavior from both. Both were behind the shoulder shots. In the case of one, the bullet came out of the top of the neck, and in the case of the second, the bullet came out of the front of the chest. Never figured those out.

[Altjaeger]

I have had excellent results for almost 30 years with 150 grain Core Lokts from a .30-06 on whitetails, roe deer and 50-150 pound feral pigs. I have not lost an animal with it yet and the only failure to exit was a raking shot from the front in a pig where I found the bullet under the hide at a ham.

In the 1960s I killed a deer quiet effectively with a cheap Federal bullet of 150 grains from that same rifle. Last year I convincingly dropped a doe with a 170 grain Federal Power Shock from my 8x57 with complete pass through.

[ncboman]

The kid needs a better deer bullet.

Doan think so. What the kid needs is to learn how to shoot deer.

If he can't kill em with a 150gr slug from an 06, another bullet, or gun, or entire armory of guns ain gonna help. :rolleyes:

[Sabre]

Doan think so. What the kid needs is to learn how to shoot deer.

If he can't kill em with a 150gr slug from an 06, another bullet, or gun, or entire armory of guns ain gonna help. :rolleyes:

I was thinking pretty much the same. Darn near anything kills them pretty quick if you hit them right. Nothing works so good if you don't.

[Just a Hunter]

I've taken a ton of deer with bullets such as Winchesters Super-X, Remington Cor-Lok's, Hornady Interlocks and yes Federals budget line of bullets.

Deer are neither thick skinned,heavy boned or carry sharp teeth & claws.
The above bullets have never left me wishing for anything better, and I gladly used whichever shot best in the rifle I was planning to use.

These day's I tend to use Federals Fusion bullets as there a bonded bullet at a budget price, and they shoot well in my rifles. If I couldnt find this cartridge available when needed I wouldnt feel bad about using any of the above posted bullets.

I have came across very few instances in which a 150gr 30-06 softpoint wouldnt serve me perfectly.

[MOGC]

Doan think so. What the kid needs is to learn how to shoot deer.

If he can't kill em with a 150gr slug from an 06, another bullet, or gun, or entire armory of guns ain gonna help. :rolleyes:

What he said...

[Hi Ball]

Bushman you are absolutely 100% correct in those 180 grain Remington Core-Lokt bullets!!! I changed over years ago back in the 60's. My experience with a 150 grain bullet coming out of a .300 Win mag was horrible indeed. It made one big mess out of that buck and I lost a lot of good meat too!

The newer "bonded bullet" in the Remington Core-Lokt is even better and can be used on elk or moose without hesitation. It is one of the better "premium" bullets on the market to my way of thinking.

Now that 30-06 bullet may not fly as fast using a 180 grain bullet, but it sure will penetrate any deer from end to end darn near. You will get a through & through bullet hole for tracking a trail is it comes to that but I don't think he will have to worry none. If you don't want that buck running off, then put that 180 grain bullet through both shoulders and it will be waiting on you to butcher out. :D

[GF.]

The bucks were not hit that well, but he lost both of them because of lack of blood and another 8 point that their dad shot. What a waste!

These are big deer in the 180 pound dressed range and Jake is not above taking any kind of shot angle that he can.

Poor shot selection + poor execution = Routinely disastrous results.

If he were really all that bothered by it, he'd be taking higher percentage shots in the first place and learning faster. Even if the bullet isn't suitable for the application, there is no excuse for wounding a second deer.

FWIW - those Federal Classic loads (with the Sierras in 'em) seem pretty darn soft to me, too. So until I've switched loads, I have to choose my shots with the bullet's limitations in mind. Frankly, I hadn't intended to hunt with the 7-08 this year at all, or I would have switched to a new load. So if I'm not happy with what that bullet will do in a 7mm, 150 grain load from a 7-08, the same weight in a .30 cal from an '06 might well act a bit like a bomb.

But again - no excuse for repeating a mistake.:(

[Bushman]

Good to know that those are Sierra's in those blue box Federals. Probably excellent for lung shots, but reputed to be soft. I'll get more details later as he is bringing me one of the does for sausage meat, but the first buck got brush deflected into the low stomach area. That second one was a tail end shot where he was hoping to at least break the deer down and all he found was a tuft of hair cut by the bullet. I don't condone that shot either, but it is the real world and people do take those kinds of shots. I'll buy him a new box of ammo mail ordered from Midway if I have to, but I just want him to be using the highest percentage bullet that he can be given his propensity for shooting under less than perfect situations.

I've personally only stopped three bullets in deer ever. A .30-30 that broke a shoulder, a 7mm RM 160 Partition as a close in finisher as the deer jumped from his bed and a .300 WM 180 Partition that went through a tree first. Without snow this year I think that we lost a lot of deer state wide. I've found them dead and wasted and you probably have too. A blood trail from an exit wound is important.

His brother got a buck with his .300 Wby and 180 TBBC bullet and absolutely got an exit, but he said that the heart and lungs were surprisingly in good shape. That is a case of too small an animal with too tough a bullet. I had the same thing happen using that bullet as a 165 grain out of my .308. I like it for elk from my 7mm RM, but imo it is too strong for deer. I see that they do load a 165 grain InterBond for the .30-06 in the Custom series. I don't know how that bullet compares to the Interlock, but being bonded I'd think it would be tougher.

When I was searching for a new bullet for my .308, one of the techs at Hornady said that the 165's kill like a 150, but usually exit a deer more like a 180 will. The best blood trail that I ever had was a heart shot with that 165 grain Interlock.

[GF.]

Let's say they are most likely Sierras.... I haven't been wrong yet today, so I might just be due ;)

I'd think that Herne's pet innerlock in a 165 would be a very satisfactory deer bullet withouth going to a copper solid type. Or the Fed/Rem fused core bullets that aren't so stinkin' expensive. I think I mentioned before that my next experiment in the 7-08 will be the Rem Managed recoil loads, just because I don't need the velocity of even a standard 7-08 load for the ranges I shoot. And as little as I shoot the rifles these days, anything I can do to reduce the chances of my old 7-Mag flinch returning is probably a smart thing :o

Yes, brush deflections happen, but they can be avoided with some patience. I've been avoiding them that way for about 20-odd rifle seasons so far, at a rate of one or 2 deer per year, but that's not to say I can let my guard down.

JMO, though, if the guy can get 2 does in a day, he can afford to be more patient than he has been on those bucks. For a guy's chances of seeing a real big deer some day, the only thing worse than shooting a decent young buck every year is shooting more than one decent young buck every year:rolleyes:

[MOGC]

Years ago that blue box bullet was a Sierra, but in later years Federal and Speer have been under the ATK umbrella together so I would venture that is a plain jane Speer cup-n-core bullet. Still has little to do with the results, the blame lies elsewhere IMHO.

[LE]

He is seeing deer & even gotten deer with this bullet. So we know one thing which is that he can do it if he puts his mind to it. Simply put, he needs to hunt more & not just shoot at a deer. Re-read Herne's quote.

[Perry]

Ive used all sorts of ammo through my 30-06, and ive never had to track a deer. They rarely take a step after actually. No matter what gun, or bullet your using the most important thing is to take a good clean shot. Shooting hard angles and threw brush is just asking to wound and lose and animal.

[Altjaeger]

I'll buy him a new box of ammo mail ordered from Midway if I have to, but I just want him to be using the highest percentage bullet that he can be given his propensity for shooting under less than perfect situations.


My take is the best thing to do is to teach him to wait for the right shot. I have used Winchester Silvertips on three animals weighng 100-250 lbs (1967, 1992, 1992) and never liked their performance as far as leaving a blood trail or dropping the animal as quickly as Core Lokts or cheap Federal's. My theory is that they are designed for elk and larger game and simply did not expand as quickly causing slower bleeding out and less of a blood trail.

You say the lack of snow is a problem in tracking but many of us never have snow to aid tracking should it be necessary. The bullet he uses now gives an excellent chance for a pass through and blood trail without snow if he learns the discipline to wait for the right shot. Actually in my experience it may become rare to have to track at all with most dying in sight due to a soft bullet in .30-06.

I am afraid the idea of buying a bullet for the best chance under less than optial shot placement may only encourage slob shooting. I have taken away a son's shooting privileges for the remainder of the season for the offense of sloppy shooting twice in rapid succession. He was more attentive the next year because he wanted to camp and hunt with his older brother and I the next. He also shot his first recoverable deer the next.

[MOGC]

Alt,
Just an FYI kinda thing, between Winchesters two common c-n-c bullets the Power Point and the Silvertip, the Silvertip is the more stoutly constructed of the two.

[Bushman]

The kids stopped in tonight and we had a beer together and now I have two deer to bone out, but at least it will give me a chance to see what that blue box 150 grain bullet did. Shoulder shot and no exit from what I can see so far on the biggest doe. That right there does not bode well for using blue box 150's on something even larger. Alt I know what you are saying about using too tough a bullet too. I used a TSX this year and while the shot went high, it did not open much of a wound enough to bleed enough to even follow.

They did find their dad's buck (.300 WM with Fusion ammo hit far back) and the story now is that they don't think that Jake's second buck was hit at all because of all the brush. He is talking about a new rifle for next year and if I thought that going to a bolt action would help settle him down, I've got a 7mm RM that should go hunting. I do think that spending half again more for a better box of ammunition is money pretty well spent to assure an exit wound. The question is what bullet is enough without being too destructive and not penetrating or being too tough and not expanding enough?

[Altjaeger]

Alt,
Just an FYI kinda thing, between Winchesters two common c-n-c bullets the Power Point and the Silvertip, the Silvertip is the more stoutly constructed of the two.

True, and my point was that the Silvertip was too stoutly built for my purposes and tastes. From what I understand the Power Point maybe a bit softer that the Core Lokt which I have been very pleased with. When I handloaded many moons ago I was extremely happy with Hornady 165 grain bullets.

[Sabre]

I have used Winchester Silvertips on three animals weighng 100-250 lbs (1967, 1992, 1992) and never liked their performance as far as leaving a blood trail or dropping the animal as quickly as Core Lokts or cheap Federal's. My theory is that they are designed for elk and larger game and simply did not expand as quickly causing slower bleeding out and less of a blood trail.

That's not true when it comes to .30-30 bullets. In fact it's just the opposite. I've shot a ton of deer with both core-lokts and silvertips out of my .30-30's and the 170 grain Silvertip consistently expands to larger diameter, creates noticeably more internal damage, leaves significantly larger exit wounds and heavier blood trails than core-lokt's.

[Altjaeger]

I maybe be wrong Sabre but I seem to have read that the 30-30 Silvertip resembles the other Silvertips in cosmetics only, not construction. I know they have sold an awful lot of Silvertips purely because they look so sexy. Thats why I bought them as a teen back in the 1960s. I gave the rest of mine to a buddy who insists on using them. He consistently has to track his deer with the .30-06.

[Sabre]

I maybe be wrong Sabre but I seem to have read that the 30-30 Silvertip resembles the other Silvertips in cosmetics only, not construction. I know they have sold an awful lot of Silvertips purely because they look so sexy. Thats why I bought them as a teen back in the 1960s. I gave the rest of mine to a buddy who insists on using them. He consistently has to track his deer with the .30-06.

You could very well be right on that. I have no experience with Silvertips beyond the .30-30.

[Hi Ball]

Altjaeger the Winchester "Silver Tips" I was first introduced to back in the early 60's, as our group went on a moose hunt to Canada, were indeed for the heavy big game animals such as elk, moose or bears.

The Winchester signs put out back in those days featured a hunter standing face to face with a giant grizzly bear, the caption told hunters to use Winchester "Silver Tips" for such a hunting challenge. They were a tuff bullet and didn't frag apart like some bullets did in those days and still do today.;)

[Bushman]

The silver tip is actually an aluminum cap over the lead. It will inhibit expansion somewhat in the larger cartridges. It makes good sense in a .30-30 because conventional lead tips get battered from the loading gate and working them through the action to unload the rifle. That said, look at the huge cap on the Silver Tip on that .30-30 compared to something larger. I'd bet my keyboard that the cap is thinner over all that lead exposed at the tip to promote rapid expansion at .30-30 velocity. Sabre, I know that .30-30's flat out work for deer because those bullets are made to expand perfectly for deer size game. If you loaded that 170 grain .30-30 bullet into say a .30-06 or a WM you would have a bomb. That is the crux of this whole thread. Some bullets are going to work better than others at a given velocity and game size.

[REM]

Bushman, I’ve found though out the years that using a heavy partition bullet (200 or 220 grain) in brushy area has been my best bet. You need something that will bust though and not deflect when hitting small sticks.

[MOGC]

Everything deflects to some degree and shooting through openings in the thick stuff is a much better option than slinging one through the middle of it with a hope and a prayer. REM didn't say that was his strategy, but for many timber, brush and heavy cover hunters that is exactly what they do. I actually think an accurate flat shooting scoped rifle is a big advantage in the thick stuff. I've hunted the last several years with my scope set at 6X, which is against the conventional wisdom. I'm not taking running shots or busting brush so why not use the scope to help me pick out small openings I can accurately slip a bullet through?

[GF.]

I'm with you; when I'm in gottatettadeer mode, I reach for the 7-08, which wears a 2-7X and is zeroed at 50 yards so that I keep the bullet on a really tight string at all the ranges I'm at all likely to shoot.

And as Herne was explaining on the brush-busting thread we had recently after PostOak had that odd result, we now know that longer, heavier bullets may be more 'upset' by hitting a small twig than a lighter-for-caliber selection....

I still enjoy shooting the big slugs out of my .45/70 and my .54, but both of those are iron-sighted and intended for use at what are essentially bowhunting ranges where brush deflections are of relatively little concern...

[Hi Ball]

Trail and error has taught along the road of life and hunting, that a big heavy bullet going at slow to moderate velocities works much better in the thick brush for deer. The scoped rifle is a big plus in shooting through small openings in the brush and dense foilage in places like the dark continent. I used a 2 x 7 power scope and made successful shots I would have never be able to make other wise.;) :)

[Bushman]

Now I remember why I only like to bone out one deer a day. With the hide off that larger doe, I found that the blue box 150 grain Federal Power-Shok bullet never even got to the other side of the chest wall after breaking the near shoulder. The other deer had bullet break up blowing out a four inch diameter entrance wound behind the shoulder with small bullet fragments cutting the inside of the far chest wall. Frankly I would have expected better from Federal. At least a 165 grain, likely a Hornady Interlock or InterBond, is going in that .30-06 for next year.

[MOGC]

Trail and error has taught along the road of life and hunting, that a big heavy bullet going at slow to moderate velocities works much better in the thick brush for deer.

That was always my thought too, however, there have been dozens of baffle box test and brush screen test which actually have some surprising results. Results like the .270/130 combination as one of the better about getting through brush, also the .243/100 did very well. Not so surprising was the .30-06/180 that did quite well too. .12 gauge slugs actually performed poorly in such test as did some other well known brush busters like the .35 Remington. Spitzers seemed to do better than roundnose or flatpoint bullets! Another surprise there. So with all the conflicting info one thing I know for sure, if I carefully shoot through an open space or hole in the brush with an accurate flat shooting scoped rifle then I feel like I make the best of my opportunities with the least amount of error possible.

[Sabre]

With the hide off that larger doe, I found that the blue box 150 grain Federal Power-Shok bullet never even got to the other side of the chest wall after breaking the near shoulder. The other deer had bullet break up blowing out a four inch diameter entrance wound behind the shoulder with small bullet fragments cutting the inside of the far chest wall.

That performance really surprises me from a 150 grain .30-06 soft point. I get better performance {more penetration, less fragmentation} with the 85 gr. Sierra BTHP fired from my .243 at 3100 fps.. Normally I'll find the jacket peeled back nearly to the base with a small amount of lead left in the base of the jacket just under the off side hide with those, while 100 gr. core-lokts generally punch right through.

[GF.]

That performance really surprises me from a 150 grain .30-06 soft point. I get better performance {more penetration, less fragmentation} with the 85 gr. Sierra BTHP fired from my .243 at 3100 fps.. Normally I'll find the jacket peeled back nearly to the base with a small amount of lead left in the base of the jacket just under the off side hide with those, while 100 gr. core-lokts generally punch right through.

I'm guessing not so much when you hit heavier bone on the way in, no?

JMO - .243 bullets are built for .243 velocities, regardless of weight. 150-grain .30 cals are built to expand well at .308 velocities and can become bombs when fired out of a .30-06 or anything with an M on the head-stamp.

[Sabre]

I'm guessing not so much when you hit heavier bone on the way in, no?

Don't really know about that GF. I'm pretty careful with shot placement when I'm using my .243 and have yet to put one through the shoulder. I have some of those blue box 150 grain Federal "Power Shok's" on hand for my .308. After reading this I'm not too anxious to take them deer hunting. I don't believe the 80 fps velocity difference between the .30-06 and .308 is going to make a bit of difference in bullet performance.

[Bushman]

I wouldn't think so either. I can't really confirm the kind of bullet that they load in it either. I'm just looking at my Midway catalog and see "150 Gr Power-Shok SP per 20 at $16.99" or the cheapest load on the entire Federal page so I guess that you get what you pay for. Right below that listing is the Vital-Shok listing the Sierra GameKing loading for $30.99 so that Power-Shok isn't a GameKing Sierra.

This isn't the first time that the kids have had trouble with the inexpensive Federals. My other step-son hit a fork-horn a few years back full in the near shoulder with a 130 grain blue box Federal from a 270 and the deer went off the property on three legs and the neighbor killed it. Until yesterday seeing what I did cleaning those two deer I have doubted his story.

[MOGC]

I've killed some deer with that .243 85 gr. Sierra HPBT GK bullet handloaded a little over 3,100 fps. That is a tougher bullet than one think. I have exits on broadside shots on 150 pound whitetails with that little bullet. It turns everything in the middle into raspberry goo and punches on out. Surprising performance from what at first glance might be considered a "varmint bullet." I like it pretty well for a general purpose bullet. I have shot deer, coyotes, bobcat, grey fox, coons, crows, feral cats, skunks, and stuff I've forgotten about with that bullet and honestly haven't been let down by it. I have a full body mount of a bobcat on the wall just over my right shoulder as I type this which was shot at 70 yards quartering on to me coming to my predator calling. I hit that cat perfectly on the point of the right shoulder smashing the shoulder and the bullet exited just in front of the left hip with a quarter size hole. The mount profile I chose put the exit wound on the outside to view and I'll defy anyone to find it.

[Smitty5]

I am always amused when people talk of brush guns bullets "busting brush". To me a bullet used in brushy areas where shot angles can sometimes cause bullets to need the ability to penetrate deeply and not so much to "buck brush". Meaning heavy for caliber bullets and not so high velocity. Also if you are shooting at the white flags most of the time you should change your tactics to get better shot angles.

[Sabre]

I've killed some deer with that .243 85 gr. Sierra HPBT GK bullet handloaded a little over 3,100 fps. That is a tougher bullet than one think. I have exits on broadside shots on 150 pound whitetails with that little bullet. It turns everything in the middle into raspberry goo and punches on out. Surprising performance from what at first glance might be considered a "varmint bullet." I like it pretty well for a general purpose bullet.

I like it as a general purpose bullet too. Works good for me on everything from crows & chucks to deer and it's very accurate. I get exits on broadside lung shots sometimes but not always. Depends on the size of the deer. On quartering shots I usually find what's left of it under the off side hide. Shot a forkhorn buck behind the on side shoulder and directly into the off side shoulder joint a few years ago. It did have enough "gee whiz" left to break the shoulder but didn't exit. Pretty tough for a "varmint bullet" and has always been a good deer killer for me.

[Altjaeger]

Now I remember why I only like to bone out one deer a day. With the hide off that larger doe, I found that the blue box 150 grain Federal Power-Shok bullet never even got to the other side of the chest wall after breaking the near shoulder. The other deer had bullet break up blowing out a four inch diameter entrance wound behind the shoulder with small bullet fragments cutting the inside of the far chest wall. Frankly I would have expected better from Federal. At least a 165 grain, likely a Hornady Interlock or InterBond, is going in that .30-06 for next year.

I am really quite surprised at that performance. It is certainly not what I saw last year out of my admittedly much slower 8x57 load. I would probably be sitting down to write the manufacturer of my concerns.

[venado]

I'd bet that a .17 would beat a .30 or .45 at getting through brush since all tests have shown that the ditance behind the brush is the critical factor if a projectile is deflected by hitting something. The .17 would have better odds in going through the limited opening between the brush due to a smaller frontal area.:D

[Chuck S]

You indicated, “My step-son called me from his deer stand this morning needing to vent because he just wounded his second big buck this season. He shoots a .30-06 and hunts a brushy section. I helped him sight in so that I know that the gun was on when we left the range. He wanted to get 165 grain bullets, but he waited too long and all he could find was the cheapo 150 grain Federal Power-Shok SP in the blue box.”


Either the 165 or the 150 SP out of a 06 is a near perfect match for white tails according to some: http://www.chuckhawks.com/standard_bullets.htm

The Federal Power-Shok Blue Box 150s are listed as a hot core bullet by Midway and knowing bullets that spells Speer not Sierra. That bullet is a bit hardier than the average soft point but not quite as hardy as one that is bonded.

For shooting brushy areas two things come to mind. You can’t shoot through brush effectively unless you can pick an opening that allows for bullet passage. Larry Koller in his classic Shots at Whitetails, pages 247-250, explored that in a somewhat practical manner by shooting dozens of shots at a plywood sheet through a bunch of brush. It just doesn’t work. Use a scope to pick an unencumbered path or #2, use physics and the law of conservation of momentum. Three, I suppose, is that if given a choice make sure the brush is right in front of the deer as it gives less time for deflection after hitting a twig. In short shoot big heavy bullets that tend to deflect less from a given twig or branch. Most, due to recoil and an arcing trajectory, prefer to go with a flat shooting bullet/rifle combo and a scope to be sure that you don’t hit any twigs. Another very small point is the point, in that long pointed bullets often deflect more that shorter ones with flat or round noses. Flat is best in that it catches and digs and punches through a twig in rather than allowing the nose to deflect as much.


Going on you said, “My experience with 150 grain non-bonded bullets out of a .30-06 is that they cannot always be relied on to give complete penetration.“

If you mean through and through penetration that’s my experience also but I expect that. Hit a shoulder or other larger bone and it stops soon after. Hit the paunch and it often stops. Through the lungs sidewise and it might go through. In any case, get it near the lung heart area and it’s most often a bomb causing massive damage and a short blood trail.


You continued, “No snow this year and the deer are not leaving adequate blood trails. He said he shot two does this morning and they both went right down which tells me the bullets are coming apart fast. The bucks were not hit that well, but he lost both of them because of lack of blood and another 8 point that their dad shot. What a waste!”

That is a waste but your statement, “ the bucks weren’t hit well,” tells the necessary story. A bad hit is most often a bad hit and especially one that nicks or hits paunch.

You added, “These are big deer in the 180 pound dressed range and Jake is not above taking any kind of shot angle that he can.”

That should change! Some shots should not to be taken. :(

“ I've personally liked the 165 grain Hornady Custom Interlock at 2700 fps out of my .308, but I'm wondering if something like the Federal Fusion 165 grain bonded bullet might be even better?”

Different but not necessarily better. In part it depends on what you want from a bullet. If you prefer a longer more narrow wound channel over a short fat one then go for a bonded or a Barnes style of bullet.”

“Years ago when I switched the entire deer camp over to the 180 grain Remington round nose Core-Lokt we never lost another deer hit anywhere with that bullet. For a lot of years it was the bullet of choice for the Benoit's too, but while it is still available there might be even better bullet choices now. What has been your recent experience with blood trails and complete penetration with .30 caliber bullets inside 100 yards? Thanks.”

Go Barnes, or A Frames or something such as that or go heavier to the 180-220 grain bullets if recoil doesn’t bother you, or both.
Bullet weight translates to momentum or penetration. Premium bullets most often equates to penetration over explosiveness and again that seems to be what you want.

For shooting at any angle and wanting penetration it’s hard to beat the Hornady or Sierra 220 gn offerings. For the premium offerings in Barnes, monolithic, or A Frame go with the 200 to 220 grain and you’ll get a pass through at most any angle. A 220 Nosler seldom stops for that matter when it hits up close in that under 100 yards range unless it hits lots of bone or is pushed at magnum velocities.

[Bushman]

Chuck, I am surprised that the Power-Shok might be a Speer bullet which I actually hold in higher regard than I do Sierra bullets. Priced at about 2/3 of the Fusions and 1/2 of the Game Kings for the loaded cartridges, they must be cutting some corners somewhere. When I was loading for my .308 I found that the 165 grain Speer RN bullet very closely simulated what the guys in camp were getting with those 180 grain SP Core-Lokts out of their .30-06's. After I didn't have the time or interest in rolling my own, both dad and I went back to those factory loaded 180 grain RN Core-Lokts in our .308's.

One deer season dad called me over and said that he had shot a buck and that he needed me to track it for him. The old fox just wanted me to gut it and drag it I realize now as anyone could have followed that blood trail. "Where did you hit it?" I asked along the trail. "Right in the middle as he was standing behind a tree." Great, I thought a gut shot and this will be a long tracking job. Not so as the deer was dead inside 200 yards.

For what ever reason those round nose Core-Lokts seemed to be less accurate and were deflected more by brush than more pointed bullets have been in my experience.

There is no doubt that the boys need to get more experience deer hunting to show some restraint about shot angles. I'm not saying shooting at a raking angle or into brush is the proper thing to do, but this is real world stuff. Deer live in second growth forest and brush abounds. People get excited when they see deer. Their group went 8 out of 10 on bucks and at the end of the season there was some peer pressure to get a buck because most of these guys are still into the limiting out stage of their deer hunting.

These last few years I have been using premium Barnes TSX bullets out of my 7mm-08 and .308. (140 & 150 grain) Neck shots don't count as those deer would drop on the spot from anything with their neck broken. Last year I heart shot a buck and the first blood was 20 yards from where he was hit. Dead deer in 60 yards, snow for easy tracking, a tidy carcass, but a quarter size exit and not much scrambled inside. Contrast that to the 165 grain Interlock buck also heart shot over snow. Blood blown out by the exit and a steady heavy blood trail starting within several yards of where he was standing. I nearly lost a buck that I shot with a 165 grain TBBC with that .308 because it did not expand very large at .308 velocity. Personally I'm going back to Hornady Interlocks.

Good hits are good hits and result in a dead deer regardless of which type of bullet is being used. Marginal hits need a bullet that will penetrate, but do enough internal damage to put the deer down after a short run or leave enough evidence of a hit for a follow up shot.

I'm positive that a 220 grain out of a .30-06 would penetrate a deer, that is an awful lot of bullet for a deer. I sure they made it with moose or bears more in mind. I have gone the Nosler Partition route in the 7mm-08, 7mm RM and .300 WM and I've seen the same thing with all of them. Small entrance, scrambled inside, then a small exit when the front half of the bullet went away and the back half punched through the far side leaving a scant blood trail. A while back Bill from NY. put up a bullet expansion chart that showed what you are talking about perfectly. What I am always looking for is a cone shaped wound channel where the bullet expends most of it's energy inside the animal, but still exits with an adequate size exit wound to provide a blood trail. That is the bullet that I'm looking for for the boys to be using next year.

[GF.]

Sometimes the players involved put it best....

From the Federal ammo ballistics page:


Power-Shok provides you with consistent and proven performance without a high-dollar price tag. Find less popular "classic" calibers in this line, along with good quality standard bullets to do the job on game. It's perfect for culling and doe hunting expeditions.



:eek:


In other words, leave them elsewhere when you really care about getting a quick kill and a prompt recovery.

[GF.]

Now that I have a couple of hides to look at and inspect the holes left by these blue-box loads for my 7-08 (150s), I'm seeing just how frangible they really are.

Maybe in something like the 170-grain, 8mm Mauser load the bullet is big enough and moving slowly enough to hold up better, but the more I think about what I've seen from these puppies, the more I think I'm done hunting with them :(

Might hafta go 'green' next time around. The corelokts have always shot well enough in this rifle, but I've never hunted with them....

[Sabre]

Core-Lokts have always worked well for me in everything from 150 and 180 grains in .308, .30-06 and .30-30 to 100 grain .243's. They aren't expensive or flashy but they get the job done.

[Herne]

I'm with Sabre and one or two others. I never changed loads because I found one which worked. I personaly always used Interlocks, but watching clinets, across a range of manufacturers.... smart expensive bullets may be neater shooting, but in terms of lethality, all one has to do is stick it in the right place.

It really is as simple as that. You have to be know the arrangement of a deer, and then be able to hit the lethal bits. If not one is pissing in the wind, and just being a general nuisance.

WGR to all involved, changing bullets won't make any difference.

When I had the little tracking dog, I used to get rung up, because she'd track anything anytime (but not as well as the first one - the immortal Maggot). "Yes it's hit well, I know its down somewhere etc etc - Oh and no I didn't follow up and push it on!!!" They never were - always crap shooting and a hit in the wrong place. It back up Sabre's point absolutely. Hit it right and nothing goes very far.

Ought to issue tags against ammo, not carcasses. Watch the wastage improve!

[GF.]

I'm gonna have to buy a vowel, Meyrick...:D

WGR..... :confused:

While generally right?

Within good reason?

I was actually contemplating that one on Friday, while 'soaking up the sunshine' :rolleyes: .... 20 feet up a tree.... in 20 degree (F) temps.....with 20 mph breezes....and gusts to 50...

At that point, I was willing to think about just about anything to keep my mind off of how cold I was or how much the tree was swaying & shuddering in that wind....

Not that I saw anything...:rolleyes:

But if I had, I really wouldn't have had any concerns about bullet performance with the old muzzleloader. 235 grains of pure, soft lead sphere at under 2,000 fps is a sure enough death warrant when you get a chance to use it...:cool:

[Bill Gunn]

Ought to issue tags against ammo, not carcasses. Watch the wastage improve!

L O L.... :D Ain't that the truth

[Bushman]

GF, your Friday stand reminds me of one of my old stands that I called the "Rodeo Spruce". Really exciting even if you didn't see anything especially in the wind. It kind of felt like you were out on the end of an ultra light fishing rod. Those windy days are better off moving a little yourself, because the deer are probably hunkered down. That is around here. I wonder how they act out in the areas where it is always windy?

[GF.]

Yup, only trouble was that I was pretty sure that they were holed up where I couldn't have gone after them, and the snow was so crunchy that it was loud even over the wind noise, most of the time. You can still-hunt on a day like that if you use wind noise for cover, but only if you can use the binoculars without losing any fingers, and my gloves were definitely not up to snuff....

So instead of going into the best available bedding cover, I set up where I figured they'd want to travel as they came out of the bedding areas to feed; they just had sense enough to stay put 'til the wind quit, which was sometime the next day....

If I get into something similar next time out, I think I'll try and gently push them out of the best bedding cover I can find on my side of the ridge, then set up and hope that they want to get back in there before quitting time... I guess the trick to that is to find their exit trail and push them out to windward, so that they'll have to come back with the wind on their tails. At this point, I'm not expecting to see any real antlers, so the first one to come back in might also be the last one that day....:D

[Herne]

the 17. Yes it would and also because the shockwave is so small it wouldn't be affected by incompressibilty effects when going close to brush.

Don't have to hit a twig or blade of grass to a bullet to be made to tumble or deflect.

[Herne]

With great respect.

[Herne]

No deer likes the wind - cold, breaks up sound and breaks up scent. Move to the downwind sheltered edge of cover/wood edge and keep fingers crossed.

They'll always came creeping out late, or not at all if wet as well.

Never used to bother to go out in a wind unless I really had to.ie taking a client out. For my own shooting, never.more profit in drinking coffee. Actually its not quite true. In a strong wind roe will over here hunker down like any other deer, but on the downwind side of hedges where they are vulnerable. But the larger deer in woodland, no.

[Bushman]

Herne, so what you are saying is that a round nose is not as aerodynamic and is pushing more air than a spire point and just the air turbulence of passing close to an object might be enough to make it less stable? I think that you have some military projectile experience and come to think about it, I don't ever remember seeing anything but a spire point artillery shell.

[MOGC]

Long distances = pointed projectile.

[GF.]

No deer likes the wind - cold, breaks up sound and breaks up scent. Move to the downwind sheltered edge of cover/wood edge and keep fingers crossed.

They'll always came creeping out late, or not at all if wet as well.

Never used to bother to go out in a wind unless I really had to.ie taking a client out. For my own shooting, never.more profit in drinking coffee. Actually its not quite true. In a strong wind roe will over here hunker down like any other deer, but on the downwind side of hedges where they are vulnerable. But the larger deer in woodland, no.

Hmmm..

So in this case, that would have meant the up-hill side of the thickest stuff I can find, no?


I wish there were more young pines to poke around in; all of the younger, thicker stuff is hardwood. So maybe the sun filtering through does them a little good on a south-facing slope like that, but you really can't beat a spruce/fir thicket for holding in the heat and killing the breeze.

No matter, though - if I'm correct in thinking that they were all on the other side of the ridge, I wouldn't be bothering them any, so for this week I guess I'll just load up on hand, toe & body warmers and if confronted by similar conditions, I'll go have a look around those edges.... Hopefully it won't be so raw again, but having a system on the way in always seems to get them on their feet, so here's hoping for bad weather ;)

[Herne]

Assuming a supersonic projectile.

The shape of the bullet behind the shockwave mave little difference, as long as the bullet is all behind hte shockwave, a bit of chubby cheeks doent affect it. What a supersonic RN will suffer from is a diffuse IP for the shockwave, and the mach cone may actually touch the proj. That is bad news aerodynamically and very drag inducing.

At subsonic velocities the air obeys Bernoulli, and actually generates lift as it flows around a rounded object because it is speeded up and the pressure drops. This creates the rather odd situation of negative drag. Thats why pistol bullets and subsonic aircraft are all well rounded at the front.

However goign back to supersonics. Remeber that to a supersonic object, the air is incompressible, so the object creats a pressure front, where, insted of a gradual rise in pressure as the air gets out of the way, there is a step change in pressure. That delineates the mach cone. Since, to the bullet, the air is incompressible, if it goes close to a twig, the air cant get out of the way, so the bullet "appears" to be much greater in "aerodynamic diameter" than it really is by physical measurement. or the twig seems to the bullet to be much bigger.

Moral, keep away from twigs, blades of grass etc, because incompressibility effects means that a near pass will still deflect the bullet.

[Herne]

Yes Matt, but you still have to predict why way they are likely to move.

No theory is perfect, and things can be changed by say shelter on the feeding ground. ie the deer seems to break the rule by heading into the cold, when actually its not - in the long term. So you need to know your ground in the widest sense.

Still a few guidelines often give you an edge, so that on the averages you end up in the right place more often than not.

That's about all you can ask.

[GF.]

... a few guidelines often give you an edge, so that on the averages you end up in the right place more often than not.

That's about all you can ask.

Agreed! I'd just really like to get there at least once this year ;)

Quick question on the sub/super-sonic bullet discussion....

You mentioned lift.... How does that work out in practical applications? I know it won't keep a bullet aloft in any meaningful way.....

And since that applies to sub-sonics, what's speed of sound in fps again? I know I can get a muzzleloader ball to go supersonic, but am not so clear on what happens as it sheds speed and passes through mach. I understand that
air rifle shooters have stability issues when their pellets drop through, but I'd think that a roundball offers very few options vis-a-vis destabilization:D

It's just interesting to think that a 1300 fps 405-grain slug from my .45/70 might be less easily perturbed by a near-miss on a twig than a 7mm bullet at twice the velocity....

[Herne]

Lift - oops sorry.

There is lift along the bullets length. Its called slender body lift and its caused by spin. The bullet exits at an upwards angle and gyroscopic forces keep it pointed nose up tail down in its exit position. So it actually lies slightly across its parabola. Because it holds nose up, its not flying point on as the pix show and as a consequence drag is increased by the cross body flow which acts to lift the bullet and reduce drop. So the common calculation which states that a bullet falls at 1g is in fact incorrect because it falls at slightly less that 9.81 metres/sec^2.

Yes the bullet, even when supersonic is flying in subsonic air. The air is shocked down to subsonic velocity across the shock wave, and back up by the tail shock. The work done (represented by the temperature change across the shock) = a good proportion of the drag. The two shocks show very clearly in shadowgraphs. The bit sandwiched by the the 2 shocks is subsonic.

Subsonic - I used the term lift a bit casual. Yes there is slender body lift, but not a lot because subsonic projes are usually pretty short. However the nose of a subsonic proj behaves as the leading edge of a wing, so the air accelerates and loses pressure as it goes round the curve. If it loses pressure there is suction, so the bullet is sucked forwards.(negative drag). Its not lifted by that effect because the effect is symmetrical - though it is in fact warped by field effects at the transition point where the slender body effect starts.

Why doesn't the bullet accelerate - because there is a drag penalty. The force actually force acts at right angles to the tangent to the surface of the bullet. That is not vertical WRT to the line of travel. So you can resolve that vector into and up or down component, and a forwards (or backwards) component, and add the totals together. That integral of course shows that there is a net drag penalty, but its not as big as it could be because there is quite a bit of forwards acting "drag".

Thats the origin of the ballistic coefficient. You take a blunt square ended rod and allocate it a value of 1. Your curvy pointy bullet has a BC of say .2 That's where the other .8 has gone in a subsonic proj.

Mach 1 at sea level is 341metres/sec

[LeeInSC]

I am a big fan of the Remington 180-gr RN CoreLokt out of a .30-06 for almost anything inside of 200 yards. Accurate, shoots to the same spot as the other 180-gr bullet up to that range, not a lot of meat damage. Some years ago, when the X bullets and others came out, I saw a test of a bunch of the premium bullets against this 180 CL. The shocker for everyone was that it retained 70% of its weight and out-penetrated almost all the expensive space age bullets.

That said, my guess is the problem with any deer not dropping dead from a .30-06 bullet is poor shot placement or a total miss due to flinching. I have shot really big deer with a 150-gr bullet and had them trot off like they were an elk or moose, but they didn't go far.

If he is going to keep using a .30-06, handload it down with a 125-gr vanilla bullet at 2,500 fps or so, and limit shots to 100 yards or less, wherever it is he can hit a drink can 100% of the time. They will usually drop in their tracks if hit in the heart, and the bullet at that speed will exit, and there will be blood.

[GF.]

341 m/sec = 1119 ft/sec, so I suppose that's virtually irrelevant to hunting bullets, isn't it?

Still interesting to learn about these things, though, and probably explains why the Mythbusters were getting very slight discrepancies between 'dropped' and 'fired' pistol bullets when they tested the principle :D

They pretty much glossed over the differences..... Probably because explaining the subtleties you just described to a TV audience would take an entire 1-hour episode!

Lee - the 180 Corelokt bullets really ought to retain their weight well, shouldn't they? At .30-06 velocities, they just can't be that badly stressed.

But If I understand Herne correctly, the 180s should be more dramatically affected by ticking off of a twig- or even just getting to close to it - than say, a 150 would be.... I don't think the differences would really matter that much in practice, though - either the animal is close enough to the obstruction to be hit by a sizeable chunk of bullet or not... Having the individual chunks weigh a few grains more or less seems unlikely to be the deciding factor, so as you say - solid shooting above all else...

I might add, though, that it must be more profitable to aim around any visible obstruction (within the 8-ring, of course) rather than thinking to shoot 'through' anything that might be in the way of the x-ring placement....

[buckslayer]

I can vouch for sure that a Federal 150 grain Power Shok soft point fired from a .30-06 will come apart. I used them about 4 years ago on three deer and then again this year on four deer. It worked perfectly on the deer 4 years ago but this year I've had perfect performance as far as killing deer, but it appears that Federal has softened them up significantly.

From 4 years ago.
Deer #1 was a doe, in the 90 lb. range. Shot at 100 yards. The shot was coming to me, straight on. I shot and hit the deer's chest and it penetrated and exited near the last rib with a quarter sized exit hole.

Deer #2 was a doe, in the 65 to 75 lb. range. Shot at 25 yards, shot through the neck. It penetrated and left a baseball sized exit hole.

Deer #3 was a young buck in the 125 lb. range. Shot at 10 yards, through the neck and I got a baseball sized exit hole on this one too.

Fast Forward to this year.

Deer #4 was a 9 point buck that weighed in the 200 lb. range. It was a quartering to me shot, at 125 yards so I shot going into the shoulder and expected it to come out behind the shoulder on the far side. At the shot the deer just dropped. While cleaning him, I found the bullet jacket stuck to the shoulder bone. It appeared that the force of the bullet hitting the bone was enough to shatter some bone into the lungs and maybe the lead core because there was very little trauma other than bone fragments in the heart & lung cavity. I was unable to find any metal or any fragments in the heart/lung cavity. I wrote that off in my mind as a fluke bullet.

Deer #5 was a 90 lb range doe shot at 150 yards and it was a broadside shot. I placed the bullet tight behind the shoulder and the deer just dropped. It hit one rib going in and I found the just the jacket under the offside hide, all smashed and bent. It was barely recognizable as a bullet. There was no lead in the jacket at all. The lungs were literally liquified. I was satisfied since it dropped the deer right there but I would have liked an exit wound. It was here that I figured I need to be careful with shot placement and keep the bullet off of any bone because I figured they were too soft.

Deer #6 was a 90 lb range doe shot at 125 yards and it too was a broadside shot. I placed the bullet tight behind the shoulder and it too just dropped right there. This time I missed hitting a rib but the bullet still did not penetrate all the way through. In fact the offside didn't appear to have gotten hit. All I found was a pile of copper fragments in pile of liquid where the lungs used to be.

Deer #7 was a 90 lb. range doe shot at a ranged 368 yards. I figured it would work perfectly for that type of shot. At the shot the deer just dropped. I hit her behind the shoulder and a little on the high side. She dropped at the shot also but the bullet still did not penetrate to the other side of the chest and all I found once again was a pile of bullet fragments in the lung area.

I kept using those bullets because I had took a week of vacation off to hunt and they were all that I had taken with me. They were working ok enough to kill a deer but I made my mind up that as soon as I could go by somewhere that had bullets that I was going to something different because I wonder what would happen on a big buck that was all adrenalined up from the rut. It would be my luck that he'd run off after the shot and I'd be unable to find him because of no blood trail. I bought me a box of Remington 150 grain Corelokt Ultrabonded to try out for the week of vacation that I'm getting off at Christmas. Hopefully they will perform better than these el cheapo 150 grain Power Shoks. I am going to use the remaining five boxes of those for shooting over the summer.

[Bushman]

Herne, exactly what I was going to say.:D

Buckslayer, welcome to the HA Forums and thank you for that most complete report from your own experience. We will look forward to your report on the 150 Ultra Bonded Core-Lokts from your December hunt. That 168 grain Ultra Bonded Core-Lokt doesn't look like too bad a choice either. I don't know if you are new or have been lurking for a while, but we do have a lot of fun on this site. Come on in, the waters fine.

Lee, I'm looking at that Gary Sciuchetti "The Best Hunting Bullet" chart that I have and that Remington RN 180 grain Core-Lokt shows a beautiful mushroom from 3100 fps all the way down to 1400 fps without one shed core out of the 54 RNSP Core-Lokt bullets shown. That can't be said for nearly any other of the 38 180 grain bullets tested. 38x54 is 2052 bullets shown on that chart. I wrote to Gary and told him that it was too bad that his test was only shown in a periodical. (Handloader #193 June 1998) I always liked that bullet once it got into the deer, but it did seem to go astray in the brush on me more often than more pointed bullets.

[Herne]

WRT to the 8/10 ring. Exactly - its better to be approximately right than exactly wrong.

I think that and Postoaks thread just indcate that no spinning bullet is good in brush - or there is no such thing as a non deflector, and there are good physical reasons why that should be so. Perhaps the only useful bit of all this rather abstruse stuff about airflows and things is that it explains just why that should be so. One doesn't have to remeber why, just that it is, and so when some TV techie or magazine writer comes out with silly statements you know what to believe and what to leave behind.

The problem with a lot of these brush busting tests is simply that the results are very random. And clearly that should be so statistically - so you need a lot of attempts to build up anything meaningful. Secondly it is difficult to prove a negative.

I'm delighted to see Buckslayer too. For 2 reasons. Firstly a new face - so welcome. But also because what he says bears out something that I have long believed - for all round dependability, you cannot beat a heavy for calibre bullet at a reasonable velocity. I kow the trajectory merchants will all scream blue murder, and the energy dump theorists will gasp in agony. But at the end of the day you want that bullet in and out of the deer in one piece, at whatever range you happen on the animal (hunting being full of surprises) so the deer dies and you can find it.

[Bushman]

Herne, who was getting better blood trails? You with your .270 and 150 grain Interlocks or your buddy Trev with his .308 and 150 grain TSX bullets? I did see less bruising internally with the TSX, but I thought that the Interlock opened a wider exit wound. How about when you went to Africa? That was .270 Interlocks against .300 WSM Nosler Partitions, right?

[Herne]

Trouble with blood trails is that even with decent expansion and an exit, a lot depends on how high or low that exit was. Sometimes you get a fine spray, which can be difficult to see in the dark and gloom, and sometimes its a chainsaw job.

As long as I got a blood trail I could follow I was happy - and if I am being honest many times in later years one saw the blood trail after the event, because the dog was doing the tracking.

I wouldn't want to be specific on that - but what is for certain, no exit no blood trail, so one has to start there.

Also, no chest hit, no good blood trail, so there is another starter for the not so accurate.

I like Lee's suggestion - trade down a calibre or few. There was no difference in the way the deer died between a 270/150, a 308/150, or the baby 6.5x55. Yet the 6.5 is a much kinder cartridge to fire. 30/06 is quite a shunt. I don't like it for that reason - I'll fire much bigger if I have to, but for hunting where a steady and sometimes quick shot is necessary, more recoil than is necessary is undesirable.Especially if you want to get onto the next target - though much of that can be negated by a proper hold on the rifle.

Even a 270 is more than one needs, though I used mine a lot because I liked it and because I fancied it better on the bigger deer, like reds which are VERY big whitetails or small elk equivalent- and to us those large deer were just large deer one of 6 different species we hunted regularly. There was none of the "elk magic" you get in the US.

[GF.]

So, with cartridges being being more or less equal, how would you rate the differences between the different bullet types?

Elk Magic - you just don't understand how it works ;)

[Herne]

Nope - shot enough reds and pulled them out uphill to know there is no magic. One in the slats, they fall over, you start the hard work. Avoid.

Bullet types - whatever holds together and shoots accurately . The heavy jacket cup and draws and some of the monoliths. Plastic tips I'd leave behind, and anything frangible like some of the Sierras. There are one or two clever European bulllets by RWS like the TIG and TUGs.

Equally you don't want to go too hard, so for deer the Grand Slams and probably the TTBCS are out, unless one is a magnum person.

[BJGOLFNUT]

Hey, Last year I shot three Does using a MZ shooting a 460 gr conical over 65 grains of 777 power. Every doe went a at least 100 to 300 yards, reason was I was hitting them to far back just past the lungs trying not to destroy the front shoulders:(. This year I have taken two deer using the same setup and both deer did not go 30 yards using the shoulder as point of impact. I learned a lesson last year, he will in time.

[Crockettnj]

BJ, I'm using the same load (.451 ML, 460grn NE soft lead, 80 grains 777 2F) and have been for a few years now. I've found that if I hit a shoulder on a smallish deer it really does a hell of a number on them. A bit too much. I try to avoid the shoulder now. My preferred low lung/top of the heart shot ALWAYS exits and ALWAYS drops them sooner than the higher lung shots. really though, with this laod anything hit remotely right is meat in the fridge.

With that load & distances from 15 to 215 yards I have complete exits and recovered deer within 25-30 yards almost every time.

Almost.

Two exceptions were today:
1) Late day today as the storm started I hit a button buck which i thought was a doe. Shot high-lung broadside at 45 yards, it ran an unusual 250+- yards, but was decent enough to leave a blood trail I was able to follow despite the heavy snow fall. It took 20 or so yards to start, and it tapered off now and again but it was easy enough to follow. Loins for dinner :-)

2) Early this morning I shot a large doe broadside at 187 yards, but hit in what I think is the brisket and it was not recovered. It ran 400+ yards before entering "forbidden" property. At the hit I found a clump of hair with meat, no blood. No nothing in the rest of the field. On partially snowy ground and grass. NO blood nada. Operator error. I held into the wind but suppose I over did it. I watched the deer run off with binocs nearly the whole way.


I'm rambling. MY POINT in RESPONDING is that I found that BIG, HEAVY, SLOW & SOFT bullets really do the trick. And that taking smart shots increases ones chances of getting the job done.


Dad swears by his 180 grain '06 core lokts. I love my .451 ML.


For the OP, in regards to
"That second one was a tail end shot where he was hoping to at least break the deer down and all he found was a tuft of hair cut by the bullet. I don't condone that shot either, but it is the real world and people do take those kinds of shots." :(

[Herne]

Yes - that far back and missing lungs is liver. Messy - very. Painful for the animal - very.

Tail end shots- the real world. Yes, that's one of the reasons I got out of professional hunting. Set of bones and many grow an arsehole where their brain is. I wouldn't take a shot like that personally, and I wouldn't and never did let a client take a f*ckwitted shot like that, not for the biggest trophy fee imaginable.

Only one ever did try it- despite instruction. While the deer was thrashing, I took his gun off him, blew the head off the deer to make sure it was dead quick and the trophy was no good to him, dropped his gun in the ditch below a hunt jump (deep stony and damaging), and he was on the way home to Germany before evening. That's how you treat arseholes like that.

"I'm rambling. MY POINT in RESPONDING is that I found that BIG, HEAVY, SLOW & SOFT bullets really do the trick. And that taking smart shots increases ones chances of getting the job done." Amen. You could not be more right - as long as its not too soft because having done the job, you still need to find the deer

[LeeInSC]

Herne, as I remember, you use a Tikka 695 in .270 Winchester with Hornady 150-gr Interlock bullets. I assume you get about 2,900 fps out of it. How far away do you typically shoot big red stags with that load? Did many of your clients prefer heavier bullets, from bigger diameters, like the 7x64, .30-06, 8mms, or do a lot of deer hunters in the UK use the .270?

[Altjaeger]

Lee.

I won't pretend to speak for Herne or the Brits, but the German's in general seem to prefer heavy for caliber bullets. I shot my few red deer using a .30-06 with 180 grain Federal premiums or 175 grain 7x57 ammo to conform with the local recommendations.

[GF.]

Got news for ya, BJ....

At conical speeds, you can go ahead and drill 'em in the shoulders with no worries about meat loss. Eat right up to the hole :D

Welll.... OK, so it's a pretty big hole :o

Lee - Herne's pet .270 load starts off at about 2800 so as to keep carcasses tidy. I don't know about his shots on reds, but in Africa he was taking shots in excess of 300 yards.

Elk Magic: Take one deer hunter of modest experience, and send him out at quite extraordinary expense (at least compared to a stay-at-home deer hunt) to go after Elk. Add 1 deer bullet (relatively light for caliber) & an unusual willingness to take low-percentage shot angles (because he's heard how hard it is to get a shot at an Elk) and combine with an expectation that the bullet will create the same boom-flop result on Elk that it often does on deer. Stir in a high shot placement (either because the shooter overestimated the range or because he's sighted in to provide some ridiculously long maximum PBR and the bullet is floating 4" or more above the crosshairs), a pinch of thick, rubbery hide and a complete failure to exit so as to minimize any blood trail, and voila - Elk Magic.

So you see, Herne just does it all wrong - he knows his (relatively slow, heavy-for-caliber) load, he gets the range right - no matter what it might be - he chooses his shots wisely and holds plenty steady off of the sticks so that the bullet goes square into the ribs H/L.

Perfectly adequate load, perfectly well placed, and a perfectly good blood trail leading to a predictably dead animal. Where's the magic in that?:rolleyes:

[Bushman]

One of my first years out elk hunting, we had one of our guys forget his ammunition for his .30-06 so he borrowed five cartridges from one of the other guys. I only witnessed the exchange, but I do remember that they had red plastic tips on them and back in those days, the only thing with red plastic tips were those early Ballistic Tips. The guy did bring in a cow elk shot all five times. The guy probably still tells the story about the Kevlar coated elk that he shot. 175 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets worked the best for me out of my 7mm RM. 160 grain Nosler Partitions, not so much.

[Herne]

Matt - nice of you to say so.

You make a very good point about ranges and the big deer. One is used to looking at the ordinary deer and suddenly there is a big bastard. Only you have no point of reference, you are not used to them, you may well not be used to either gun cartrdge or setup) and you don't realise how big he is, and that he is a lot further away than you thought he was..........(Depends a bit on what sort of country you are in of course, but a lot of good men make that mistake, end up hitting him a few critical inches low and we are in trouble from then on. Or as Matt says, because of the setup the go well high.Mind you, high is better than low. A hit is usually fatal)

Big red stag - well any red deer. I don't like shooting beyond 300, but I'll go a touch further if I have to. A lot depends on how steady one can get. A reds chest (read elk) is VERY VERY big. So given a reasonably steady hold, a good knowledge of the range and not too much x-wind, 350-375 is a one shot kill range. Given good kit, a knowledge of the load and a good trigger - and with these longer shots you usually have a totally unsuspecting animal and all the time in the world to lase, set up and shoot..

Reds are a bit awkward for us because they live on ancient glaciated uplands mostly so you get these very rounded "pull you forwards" slopes. You can often see the deer from a long way away, but you either have to get ridiculously close, or you go from a long way. To be fair neither 270 nor 6.5 ever failed. I used a rangefinder quite often - always over any distance.

A 270 is quite a big calibre in the UK - very popular. The 06 is not. Hardly ever see one, but then we have no historical attachment to it. (the 270 will do anything an 06 will do, and its a bit less spiteful to use is the probable explanation)

Clients - mostly continentals, as Altjaeger says tended to like bigger calibres. 300Win, 7Rem 06 of course. 7x64 was popular. Some countries would limit you to non war/military calibres. Yes they did prefer the bigger calibres. A lot had some difficulty controlling them, and some you needed to get in very close. :)

For me, I reckon a well placed tiddler is a lot more use than a misplaced biggun! I don't mean I'm a tiny calibre, catch 10lb rainbows on 1lb line merchant, I just mean I'd rather see a well placed shot than all the horsepower in the world.

[Bushman]

Herne, while we have you by the thread, you use a 6 or 8 power by 56mm S&B do you not? Down in the optics section we were talking about using higher magnification and one of the posters said that they liked a little lower power in order to see the reaction or bullet strike that you have also talked about. I've never shot a 6.5x55 Swedish, but I've sure read that they don't recoil very much, at least compared to a .270. At 6 or 8 power are you still able to see reaction through the scope with the .270 using those higher magnifications? I've only got 42's and under so the field of view might be wider with that 56mm front lens.

[GF.]

JMO, if you're losing sight of the animal due to recoil, a wider field of view won't matter. Either the rifle or your head, or both will be moving too fast.

I've found it's not that hard to keep track of the animal as long as I keep my eyes open. Bofum, ideally, because even if the rifle ends up pointing elsewhere, I have a shot at keeping track of the critter with my left eye.

And that's not really so hard if you just burn enough light-kicking ammo that you just plain forget to flinch when using the bigger rounds....

[Herne]

Off the sticks or the rail of a high seat - I always hold the sling and sling swivel in my fist so the grip includes the rail/sticks/support, not the fore-end alone, to kill any flip dead.

Standing you lean forwards and down.

That way, even with high mag, you can still see whats goign in, and you ensure that the forend never touches anything hard, and flip is never a problem.

[Hi Ball]

The bottom line is that those 165 grain and 180 grain core - lokt bullets work just great on deer out of a 30-06 caliber~!!! ! I personally used those 180 grn. bullets myself in the state I live in and never had a probelm with Remmy Core - Lokts, only in the 150 grain going out of a .300 Win mag 40 years ago, simply to fast and to light a bullet. Hornday made round nose bullets in the 25 caliber and 6.5 (.264 cal) for years. These bullets penetrated very deep and always exited on deer that were shot, as I saw the results of those that used them in our hunting party. These hunters never fired over 150 yards using those bullets, as most shots where less than 50 yards in the woods.

Those that could handload and using the .270 Winchester caliber using 160 grain Nosler Partitions, dropped their deer quickly with a nice exit hole. Those deer never went over 75 yards for the most part. I dare say, that over 50% of animals getting lost are due to "poor shot placement" which certainly is no fault of the bullet. Hitting an animal to low or to far back is a scripted result in getting a deer wounded and lost most likely.

[Bushman]

Hi Ball, I would rather hit a deer too low than too high because I think that there would be a better likelihood of a blood trail. A bunch of years ago I hit a broadside buck on the run at 225 yards and got the bounder on the rise only breaking his sternum. Snow that year and easy blood tracking a hundred yards or so for a finisher. I know that you like Partitions quite a lot and early on I used 160 grain Partitions out of that 7mm RM. Back in those days I was shooting half way up behind the shoulder. It always resulted in a dead deer, but I had too many anxious moments not finding good blood trails. Euphoria when I found the deer, but WTF where is the blood before that. Then I heart shot a few and lower hits behind the shoulder with softer bullets puts lots more blood on the ground sooner.

With this global warming thing we have not had good snow for our gun deer season in the last few years and guys lose deer they have shot without good blood trails. I saw it myself this year by using too hard a TSX bullet and talked to other guys who said the same thing. The big push to the super penetrator premium bullets will lose deer for guys because they are too hard for deer imo if you don't hit them exactly right.

[GF.]

So is that a problem with the bullet or the tracker?

First off, JMO, but if you take a shot when you don't have every reasonable expectation of hitting the animal perfectly well, then frankly, you're a dumbass who oughtta be subject to remedial hunter education or just plain forced out of the sport. Enough bad stuff happens even when you're as careful as you can be.

But (not having used any of them yet) I would agree in principle that the copper solids are completely unnecessary for deer hunting unless you're using a marginal caliber like the .243. No offense to all of you .243 fans, but when your bore is getting down to the absolute legal minimum in most states and is almost universally considered to be the practical minimum for big game, then that, fellers is what the word 'marginal' means - right there around the edges... And of course, there is probably something of a gut-check factor built into using a minimally-expanding bullet in a 'just barely big enough to be legal' diameter. If your tracking skills are such that you need a pretty solid blood trail, then punching a 1/4 inch hole out the far side isn't going to do you a whole lotta good. If you can track an ant across a parking lot, then not so big a deal....

The up-side to the super-penetrators are that you can get to the heart from just about any respectable angle, and of course you can always go for the spine hit just above the heart and put the whole tracking and trailing thing to rest on the spot. I don't like shoulder/spine hits as a rule, but I've always held that it's better to lose a deer a pound or two at a time than all in one shot.....

And FWIW, as long as I have them as a legal option, I'll be shooting pretty standard cup & cores. I don't care for "big" exit wounds, but something in the 1" range is entirely satisfactory for my purposes. I might feel differently if I were taking much longer shots than I do , since that makes hard enough to find the start of your blood trail in the first place, but I have a feeling that on anything over 100 yards, I'd be looking to anchor the beast right there with a good pounding to the shoulder. Herne will disagree, I'd expect, but he's done it a lot more times than I have.....

[Sidekick]

I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of deer that I've trailed or shot in the snow. While it is easier to trail a deer in the snow the snow sure isn't required. And it really shouldn't be used as an excuse for not being able to follow up your shot. Not trying to poke anyone with a stick here but sometimes you just have to get on your hands and knees and look. Sign is sometimes hard to find but it's usually there.

[Bushman]

I'd have crawled on my belly to have found more sign of the buck that I shot this year if I thought that it would have helped, but five drops of blood in a day and a half of looking was all there was. Would a cup and core bullet have opened a bigger, leakier exit wound than a TSX? I'm of the opinion that it would have. It is back to a Hornady 165 grain Interlock from a .308 next year. Admittedly the shot did not go where it should have presumably because I got deflection, sure I should have shot again, but I didn't. Shoulda coulda woulda, but things don't always go according to plan. I've made less than perfect shots and still got the deer. Why saddle yourself with a fringe bullet or a fringe cartridge? Rightly or wrongly I have decided that a 150 grain Federal Power-Shok from a .30-06 and a 140 grain TSX from a 7mm-08 is a fringe bullet for our kind of deer hunting.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I've only had the opportunity to trail one deer (blood trail) in the snow. 5-6 years ago we had snow one Christmas Day. The next day we went hunting and #3 son shot a buck. The snow made the tracking extremely easy.......... Then the snow melted, taking all of the blood with it. Found that buck two weeks later.

Bushman, the interlock is a damn good bullet. Good Luck.

Alan

[Herne]

Was Allan - till they started plastic bits on it and converted it into a useless BT type nonsense.

[Hi Ball]

First off I can't remember that last time I had snow on the ground in my state during gun season! However, I learned a long time ago (1995) about copper bullets and still don't believe they are the best choice for thin skinned game such as whitetail deer, antelope, mule deer etc. If your hunting on public ground, you need to get that deer to the ground quick or face someone else, who may just tag your deer. So while shooting behind the shoulder may be the experts advice on type of shot taken, I try my best to hit them square in both shoulders, which will nose dive that deer to the ground or any other animal for that matter. You don't need a blood trial doing it "my way" nor a two inch exit wound either. Shot Placement is te name of the game always! You can hit a deer to far back and even with a .338 Win mag still lose it mind you. It will suffer and die later simply put, I don't like tracking animals all that much, so I prefer that anchor shot through both shoulders, it works like a magic wond hunters.

Remington Core - Lokts will get the job done but I still prefer my handloaded Nosler Partition's if going out of state on a hunt etc. Yes, you lose a little meat with a shoulder shot but no big deal, you still have the backstrap, neck and hindquarters. Oh yes, not to mention not losing a trophy buck with a great rack of horns! So in summing up this little post, I have never lost a deer using Core - Lokts in the 180 grain bullet weight and never failed to shoot plumb through the other side with an exit wound either.

[Silvertip]

First...I appologize to the fact that I have not had a chance yet to read all the posts in this thread and by all accounts looks like a good one.I would however like to state a couple of things quickly if I may.
1) Under a hundred yards I prefer not to use anything less than 180 gr period when sporting a .30 caliber larger than a .30-30.
2) I couldn't agree more with Sabre's opinion on the 170gr Silvertip .30-30 combo.Its a match made in heaven...I could never think of using anything else for deer in close range hunting.
Well that's it---Silvertip

[Hi Ball]

Silver Tip......Well it just so happens I can! Now there is the .44 magnum (strickly a woods rifle) in the carbine that Bill Ruger came out with back in the 70's. It was lightweight, very quick to shoulder and fast on moving deer in the woods. Not to forget it was a semi - auto loader. Next would be my .444 Marlin lever gun, it too is fast to the shoulder and hits big game animals with the authority of THORS HAMMER!!! It also makes one heck of an exit hole for blood to fall to the ground.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Herne, I should get out more. I didn't know that the Interlocks had gone BT. I like(d) them in 150 gr for 270 and 250 gr for my 35 Whelen. I never used them much in anything else.

Alan

[Bushman]

Yes Silvertip, this thread has had some staying power and a bunch of good posts with a wealth of information along the way too. I dropped my first buck back in '63 with a .30-30 and he fell over like a bunny rabbit and I've been trying to duplicate that ever since with bigger cartridges. There was a Winchester M64 .30-30 deluxe carbine with the checkering in the used gun collector case at the local Gander Mountain that really tempted me. But I do like my scope sighted rifles too much to ever go back to using iron sights again. NC can seem to hit deer way out there with a lever action .30-30, but recently I have started seeing a .30-06 in his posts too. I just feel more comfortable having something a little more flat shooting than a .30-30 or a bigger than .30 caliber something if a deer might be way out there.

[southtexas]

Was Allan - till they started plastic bits on it and converted it into a useless BT type nonsense.

Herne: Hornady still makes the Interlock. As you note, the SST is the Interlock with a polymer tip, but they didn't stop making to old standby! (thank goodness!) :-)

[Silvertip]

Bushman,

It's true if you feel you might need to go over 200yrds on occasion then the .30-30 is not a great choice.Under a hundred though with 170gr silvertips is murder on deer.

cheers-Silvertip

[Herne]

I understood we'd gone all plastic.

Alan - I admire your choice in 270. That Interlock in 150 loaded to about 2850 is a fearsomely effective combination. Its exactly that I was using in Africa, and it was outperforming a 300Win with 150 Partitions.

I'm sure you know also I've used it for years on deer over here, including the reds - Ii don't think I have EVER had one break up, or exit in a cross body shot. Superb round.

[GF.]

Or would that be "fail to exit"?

I know some people think failure to exit is a good thing, but I know you're not among them....

[Herne]

Ooops - yes!!!!

[Sabre]

Bushman,

It's true if you feel you might need to go over 200yrds on occasion then the .30-30 is not a great choice.Under a hundred though with 170gr silvertips is murder on deer.

cheers-Silvertip

Absolutely. There is a point where you reach completely adequate and anything more is just wasted noise and recoil. My Marlin is now scoped with a 1-4x20 Leupold and has proven completely and thoroughly adequate out to 200 yards. I've used bigger, more powerful cartridges on deer many times and none have worked any more quickly or dependably than the .30-30 170 Silvertip combo.

[blackhawk]

Man shoots deer,doesnt drop,must be bad bullets,man shoots another deer,doesnt drop,now he knows its the bullets,my thoughts,must be bad SHOOTER !!!If ya cant kill what yer shootin at,,QUIT SHOOTIN !

[Herne]

Blackhawk, there is only one subspecies of human more prone to self delusion than shooters, and that's fishermen - or maybe racers.

And I agree - if you hit it in the right place it WILL fall down. There are very rare happenstances, certainly, when it doesn't, but its not a bet to place money on.

You do hear people say how tough this that or the other is, but I can't say I ever noticed it. And I am not a user of big calibres either.