smokeless powder muzzleloading... on the way out? [Archive]

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swamp

11-28-2009, 05:51 PM

is smokless powder muzzleloading on the way out? I certainly hope so... I believe its illegal in some states for use during muzzleloading season?

purple heart

11-28-2009, 06:31 PM

Is the Savage smokeless powder muzzleloader the only one that shoots
smokeless or are there others?:confused:

swamp

11-28-2009, 06:43 PM

Is the Savage smokeless powder muzzleloader the only one that shoots
smokeless or are there others?:confused:

I don't know...

ncboman

12-01-2009, 09:52 AM

smokeless don't turn me on. :D

Presently shooting 777 but been thinkin about loading some real bp for a change. :rolleyes:

GF.

12-02-2009, 09:35 AM

In re: the original question - I can only hope so!

Frankly, I thought that there were extremely few states which had not specifically outlawed smokeless propellants; CT being (regrettably, IMO) one of 'em... Here, the regs have been written such that you can use smokeless powders, but not Pyropellets.... Obviously one more case in which the market was moving faster than the regulations....

I kinda wish I had more time & opportunity to futz around with rifles and loads and what-not; you guys seem to be having so dang much fun with those big ol' connickles that some of my naturally ingrained hatred of in-lines seems to be fading.

Or maybe I'm just getting old and soft. Or my eyes aren't what they used to be, most likely, because 65 yards through the brush has become scope range for me. :o

At least on deer. I'll never be persuaded that in-lines have a place in a 'special', early opportunity like the CO deer & Elk seasons, but here where we're up to our arses in whities, well, what the hell....

Git Out and Git Sum, boys!

Funny thing, though - I still think scoping a .50 cal with a roundball twist would make for a nifty deer rifle; I just can't get used to seeing a scope on a semi-old-fashioned looking rifle, and the sheer stupidity of a cartridge-length bolt action on a muzzleloader just offends common sense.

I dunno... Maybe part of the problem is the ridiculously high rings that so many people use in order to get those '200-yard' ballistics that the marketing weenies are selling them. Gimme a nice, compact rifle that keeps its bullet on a string out to about 100 yards, and I'm a happy camper....:cool:

Bill Gunn

12-12-2009, 05:33 PM

A lot of people use them around here. They are mainly used in the regular gun season in areas where muzzle loaders are aloud, and rifles are not :rolleyes: :confused:
The NYS law specifically states... Muzzle loading Firearm is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch.
There's talk of starting a Primitive M/L season and I wish they would (cloth Patched round ball only). I love flintlock hunting, and have two of them I really like hunting with. During the gun season, I hunt a little south of here where rifles are aloud.

I was shooting my Savage ML II today. I switched powders from 46 gr Lil'Gun (250gr @ 2600 fps... shot great, dropped 5 out of 5 deer DRT, but recoils like a .338) to 49gr H-4198, and didn't like the way it shot, or all the dirty unburned powder. So today I made up some loads with 42gr of Vitavourhi N110, .452 250gr XTP @ 2296 fps. Super accurate at 100 yds, and very tolerable recoil.

swamp

12-12-2009, 05:56 PM

i must admit i got some bad feeling about smokeless powder muzzleloading a while back when if first came out

I'd like to know what is a clean burning effiecient non smokeless powder that is available in pellet form...

Bill Gunn

12-13-2009, 06:49 AM

i must admit i got some bad feeling about smokeless powder muzzleloading a while back when if first came out

I'd like to know what is a clean burning efficient non smokeless powder that is available in pellet form...

The only two I know of are 777...

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven-pellets.html

And Pyrodex...

http://www.hodgdon.com/pyrodex-pellets.html

I messed around with the Pyrodex when I owned a Knight in-line M/L, and found that 6 months after doing a GOOD barrel cleaning, I found rust in the barrel.

When my B-I-L came over this summer to try out his Blackhorn 209 powder, he brought his in-line M/L that he had been using Pyrodex pellets in last season. He said he cleaned it real good last season before he put it away. I ran a patch in the barrel with WD40 on it, and it came out orange :mad:

I never used 777, but hear that you can get a crud ring, but it can be removed if you keep after it.
I used A LOT of 2f, 3f, and 4f Black powder in my flintlocks. After a cleaning with soapy water, heat drying the barrel, then a patch of WD40 in the barrel, and a outside wipe down with WD40, I have NEVER found rust in or outside the barrel.

Even YEARS after non use... :)

If I was going to try some pellets, I'd give the 777 a try, but that's just a gut feeling. I got better accuracy with loose Pyrodex, than I did with the pellets.

I know what your saying about the use of smokeless. It is Muzzleloading that sometimes gives you better speed, but it isn't any faster reloading, or any more accurate that any other in-line Muzzleloader.
The clean-up is easier, but with Blackhorn 209 now, even that is becoming a non-issue.

To me, NEITHER in-line, or smokeless are the same as cloth patched round ball with OPEN IRON sights primitive Muzzleloading.

Two things I've learned with carrying loose powder loads.....

I put premeasured loads in once fired .458 Winchester Magnum cases, and cap them off with .444 cases. They slip inside with a tight fit, but I never had the 2 brass cases stick so bad that I couldn't open them with a twist. This way I can measure up as many as 50 loads to have them handy.

There may be other combinations that fit together, but the .458/.444 works great for me.

I also use the clear 50 cal. Cabela's Muzzleloader Speedloaders that I carry in the woods when hunting ......

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_216671_999_03?$main-Medium$

The biggest problem with them is the static charge on the plastic that makes powder stick in the speedloaders.... There's a fix for that....

Steel some of Mama's fabric softener sheets from the laundry room, and rub down the speedloaders inside and out.... Badda Bing, Badda Boom, no more static... :p

Bill

Sabre

12-13-2009, 10:13 AM

There's talk of starting a Primitive M/L season and I wish they would (cloth Patched round ball only).

I'd like an early primitive season too but I hope they don't pass it the way they're talking now. As is, the early primitive muzzleloader season would be one week prior to gun season, side locks only, patched ball, open sights. Nothing wrong with that but the GREEDY bowhunters are insisting that it be doe only and they get an additional two weeks of buck/doe in exchange. I call BULLSCHITT TO THAT. Those greedy S.O.B's have a long enough season already. My counter offer would be how 'bout we have a one week buck/doe primitive muzzleloader season in mid October and in exchange we'll extend bow season from it's current six weeks in Oct-Nov to 8 weeks in Jan-Feb. Wonder how that would grab those selfish string pluckers ? All I can say is they'd better knock it off with their constant whining and self centered greed or they're gonna wake the sleeping giant, which is the gun hunting crowd, and then they'll wish they hadn't.

Bill Gunn

12-13-2009, 10:42 AM

I agree 210%.

What gets me is that it's only a few elitist jerks, and THEY are using compound bows that I remember being frowned down upon in the 70's when I first started bow hunting with a recurve. They make me puke their so self-centered azzhats.

I hope they each get a muzzle loader, AND a crossbow shoved where the sun don't shine.

Sabre

12-13-2009, 10:58 AM

I hope they each get a muzzle loader, AND a crossbow shoved where the sun don't shine.:D:D:D:D

GF.

12-14-2009, 12:42 PM

All I can say is they'd better knock it off with their constant whining and self centered greed or they're gonna wake the sleeping giant, which is the gun hunting crowd, and then they'll wish they hadn't.

Careful, bro, or people will start thinking you'e been listening to me!

FWIW, though, you rarely find someone who has been at it for very long who is willing to loosen the regs about what goes into a season - most multi-season hunters like the lack of competition, so once they get what they need in order to to make it worth their while, that's where they want the line to be drawn.

The CT ML season is such a joke that I really wonder how many tags they'll sell this year, now that all of the tags have doubled in price.... It's a lousy chance to take a deer (about 4%-5% success, usually); the weather is often brutal, and last I knew, smokeless was permitted, but not pellets. :confused: The only reason to hunt it is if you haven't tagged a deer yet, and since they really do want more deer killed, why bother with the meaningless ML restriction? Just call it 3rd firearms season and get the job done, same as with permitting people to use crossbows over bait in the late, late (January) private-land 'bow' season...

And as for compound shooters having an issue sharing the sweet spot on the calendar with trad MLers?.... BITE ME, 'ladies'!

I'm with you guys. And I hope it's one of those 28" bbl in-lines with the Xbow stuffed in after to lock the sucker in place 'til after the seasons are over.

Rattus58

12-17-2009, 12:13 AM

Who gives a rat's ass what you shoot. Who cares if a muzzleloader shoots smokeless or not? Who cares if it's scoped or not. If you don't like it, don't shoot it. Frankly I'm kinda happy that more and more states are allowing crossbows and smokeless and super yippee.... cartridges in black powder... You know why I love it... because so many of you are selfish, self centered, and myopic.

Merry Christmas .... ladies.... right..... :)

Bill Gunn

12-17-2009, 01:14 PM

I got this spike yesterday at a friends house near Horseheads, NY.

LOVE that Savage :D

50 yards, still hunting on the ground, 250 gr .452 Cal. Hornady XTP @ 2296 fps.
It is actually the first deer out of 6 that took even one step after being shot with the Savage, but my old load had the same bullet going 2600 fps. This one ran about 40 yards. Good lung hit...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/379735701.jpg

Bushman

12-17-2009, 02:06 PM

Nice photo, Bill. Between the perch, walleyes and young stuff venison, you must eat pretty well at your house.

Sabre

12-17-2009, 02:08 PM

Twanger

12-17-2009, 03:01 PM

I hunt with a .50 cal. T/C Hawken, patched ball and black powder cuz that's what I like to use. I couldn't care less what anybody chooses.

Me three!

I have a buch of different kinds of muzzleloaders and take out whatever I fancy. The M97 and Encore long-guns have drawn blood This year and now it's time for the pistol. After that, probably the Hawkin!

I just love the variety offered by muzzleloaders.

Bill - nice looking critter there! Man, I love hunting in the snow. :D :cool:

Rattus58

12-17-2009, 03:52 PM

I hunt with a .50 cal. T/C Hawken, patched ball and black powder cuz that's what I like to use. I couldn't care less what anybody chooses.

Exactly.... I've ALWAYS hunted with either longbow or muzzleloader regardless of season, as long as it was legal, and here in Hawaii, and Maine, the other last place I hunted, in the general season you could hunt with anything (not sure about crossbow). Here in Hawaii, in the muzzleloader or general season, you could hunt with your bow, if you chose to as long as the season didn't say "ONLY"... like muzzleloader or Black Powder Only.

Much Aloha..... Tom :cool:

Rattus58

12-17-2009, 03:56 PM

Bill Gunn

12-17-2009, 04:39 PM

That is a great picture in the snow...

Congratulations on a great shot...

Much Aloha... Tom :cool:

Thanks Guys,

I was a little surprised that my phone took such a good picture (LG Dare Cell Phone w/ 3mp camera), but I guess the snow does a great job reflecting the sunlight.
I tried one picture with the flash turned on, but got a bad flash reflection back from the eyes of the deer.
That deer is gutted, I covered up the blood with the snow near it's belly, and stuffed in it's toung to make it look better.

I'm hanging up the guns for the year, even with 2 doe permits left.

I ended up with a 3-point with the Marlin .44 Mag....
A very big doe with the Savage 99 .308.....
And now this one with the M/L, Would have liked an 8 or 10 point, but it's been a good year for me.

NOW COME ON WINTER.... When does the Ice Fishing Start :) :) :)

Bill Gunn

01-01-2010, 12:20 PM

To try to answer the original question...

smokeless powder muzzleloading... on the way out?

After I shot the buck shown below, I lent the Savage to a friend of mine.
We are allowed 2 deer with our M/L license. In 2 days, he got a nice 8 point at 175 yards, and a fat doe at 100 yards behind his house (he has way more deer behind his house than even I have).
He decided to buy a Savage. He called around here locally... none in stock.
He checked Cabelas... none
He checked with DDS Ranch (one of the largest on-line firearms dealers with over 40 supply houses all over the country he buys from) only one supply house had one, but it wasn't stainless, which is what he wants.
He was told everyone had sold out for the year, and not to expect them to catch up with orders for about 2 months.

Looks like their not on the way out yet....

here's the deer tracks in my back yard the day AFTER the season closed...

spaniel

02-20-2010, 10:32 PM

Nah....bigger than ever. Many people getting into it are making their own guns, not relying on the Savage ML-II. Myself included. I shoot caplocks, inlines, and now smokeless. They each have their place. Smokeless is only dangerous to those too stupid to load it properly.

Rattus58

02-22-2010, 12:52 AM

I agree with you completely....

Glockboy

05-06-2010, 01:05 PM

I am not sure whether smokeless muzzleloading is "on the way out" or not but I see no reason why it would be. I put together a Savage MLBTSSII package two years ago and it is scary accurate and clean and easy to shoot. From a technology standpoint, smokeless simply is a superior method to the messy, smoky, and inefficient smokepoles that we all love. I have a flintlock and love it for what it is. The Savage is amazing and I love it for what it is. Don't like smokeless? Fine with me. But please support those who enjoy this option. We need to all stand together. The last thing we need is more of that whole divisive crap ala "compound vs. recurve" or "compound vs. Crossbow" or "Trapshooters/Fudd vs. Class 3" crap. Good grief people. Different strokes!

Chris.

GF.

05-10-2010, 11:16 AM

Beg to differ.... Shoot what you want, of course, but don't bring a crotch rocket to a horse race.

swamp

05-10-2010, 07:45 PM

Cabelas last I knew dropped out from selling smokeless MLs... anyone care to speculate as to why?

spaniel

11-30-2010, 03:02 PM

Cabelas last I knew dropped out from selling smokeless MLs... anyone care to speculate as to why?

They never sold the smokeless version to my knowledge, it was a BP Savage only.

Savage is discontinuing the smokeless ML-II due to the small market size. However, this will not have a huge effect on those seeking to shoot smokeless. There are now a number of custom smokeless ML manufacturers turning out guns, and companies like PacNor offering aftermarket smokeless barrels for centerfire actions. I made a .45cal smokeless ML on a Savage short action myself this year. There is now a critical mass of data out there to inform anyone wanting to build/shoot a smokeless ML.

Once you accept inlines there is little difference what powder it shoots other than the cleanup and a modest increase in potential range. Smokeless projectile choices are identical to inline BP. Scopes give more of an advantage than powder choice. If you want to argue crotch rocket vs horse, it should be modern sight devices you are after. I killed deer to 338 yds reliably with a conventional inline, the propellant was only a modest limiter on me. Lacking a scope, on the other hand, would have been.

AK-49

12-01-2010, 04:27 PM

Savage was probably having some major headaches with the big corporations such as cabelas dropping their ML II, problems with the BATF, DNR agencies, from customer complaints and potential liabilites stating that it was safe for smokeless use.