Inconsistent POI

[Waidmann]

I'm not sure where to post this one, so I'll start with the shotgun forum and see if can get an answer here. I have a situation here I'd like advice on.

I've got a Rem 1100 in 12 gauge that has an American Barrel Company rifled barrel with the integrated cantilever scope mount. With just about every sabot slug I've shot through it this year and last, the first shot will be dead on at 50 yards. If I shoot Lightfields with about a 2 hour wait between shots, I can almost get a 3 slug group where the holes touch. On the other hand, if I fire an immediate second or third shot, the POI is about 3 to 4 inches left. The first shot is dead nuts, the next couple are at 9 o'clock 4 inches out.

Any idea what is causing that? Might the barrel have a flaw that causes subsequent shots to go left? Or might the scope be broken?

Waidmann

[rimrock]

a single shots not going to heat the barrel enough to do that, its much more likely to be the scope, is defective or the mounts it is on, why not swap scopes and take off and re-attach the current mounts with loc-tite on the threads
I sold a marlin lever action, (when I was about 20 years old) because it started doing the same thing, it turned out the new owner replaced the mounts and scope and it still held zero 12 years later, when he sold that rifle

[Bayrat]

If you have another scope it's worth trying a swap, but ....

If the gun goes back to zero every time without doing anything else to it except letting it sit to compleatly cool down, it leads me to think it's an uneven thermal expansion problem with the barrel.

Bayrat

[Waidmann]

Bayrat - It certainly goes mostly back to zero after it sits for a couple hours, althoug I'm not sure I'd call that "cooling". Like Rimrock, I can't believe that a plastic sabot sleeve can heat up the barrel much. I actually started thinking about it last year while tracking a gut-shot deer. It was one of those, "Let's see. Four inches right at 50 yards would be about 8 inches right at 100, and that's pretty close to where I hit this poor thing. I wonder if that occasional "floater" shot in my group is actually consistently my first shot in the group..." Turns out, it was. I was actually sighted in with the money shot being about 4 inches right at 50 yards. It took a long time to zero it properly for this season.

I'll start with replacing the scope. Rather than purchase a new one, I can get by at this point by using an old rifle scope, right? It it turns out that fixes the problem, I can then purchase a new shotgun scope.

Thanks for the comments.

By the way, if it is an uneven thermal expansion problem, is there a fix for it other than replacing the barrel? For that matter, does anyone here have any contact information for the "American Barrel Company"? I bought the barrel from them last year, and now I can't find them any more.

Waidmann

[REM]

I really don’t believe it’s the scope, to me it sounds more like the fit of the barrel.

Have you contacted American Barrel Company to see if you could swap it out?

[Waidmann]

Ron,

I can't find contact info them. Last year I found them on-line by searching for companies who sold the rifled, cantilever barrel for a Rem 1100. Now I can't duplicate that search, and googling "American Barrel Company" doesn't produce anything useful.

If nobody knows how to make contact with them, I think I'll start another thead on this.

Waidmann

[REM]

I found a web site that said American Barrel Company is out of Bristol WI.. So I did a search and it came back with Badger Barrels, Inc. who is now Badger Defense, LLC.

You know it seem to me like companies that keep changing their names are running from something.

Like explaining why there stuff is crap.

Something else I read was to check the barrel for the stamp mark BB initials somewhere just out of sight

That would make it a Badger Barrel.

Hope that helps.

[Bayrat]

Waidman,

One shot can get the barrel hot enough to 'move' if there's problems with the barrel manufacturing. Think warped brake drums. Not all drums or discs will warp, but every once in awhile one gets through that will. It takes alot of heat to warp it the first time and bring out the flaw, but once it has been warped, it doesn't take much re-heating to get it to warp again. When it cools down no more thumping brake pedal until it gets warmed up again.

I only have rifled barrels on a pump guns. Had it happen on both the 12 and the 20 gauge. After the first shot, each shot got lower. And it was a noticable drop after only one shot.

Turns out in my case, it was the magazine tube not alowing the barrel to 'grow' as it warmed up. To try to prevent I loosened the magazine cap. When it was loose enough to prevent the downward groups, the barrel was so loose that with recoil it would shift around bit and throw slugs in just about every direction. Loosening the mag tube cap just traded one problem for another.

Solution -I put an o-ring on the magazine tube threads between the barrel ring and the mag cap then tightened the cap just enough so that the barrel wouldn't rattle around. No more problems.

Sad to say, there may be a reason American can't be found .... it may be poor quality metal was used, and or, heat treat ????

Bayrat

[LE]

Not the scope since it works ok after waiting awhile.

[Waidmann]

Not possible that the reticles in the scope "float" a bit, so that the first recoil moves them a bit? Then, as time passes, they "float" back to their original position? It may not be possible, but that's the mental image I have with a broken scope. It is strange, tho, that 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc shots all produce an acceptably tight group. My son suggested I fire the first shot into the ground, then when the deer stops at the sound, smack him with the second shot.

Thanks for the contact info. You're right. When you posted it, it remembered that it was a Badger Barrel. I knew it was out of WI somewhere. So, I think my course is clear here. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they say. Perhaps they will swap barrels with me.

Another thought: I did give the shotgun a thorough cleaning after the week of hunting, including the vent holes. I haven't shot a group since, but I suppose it's possible that it simply needed a good cleaning. I bought the shotgun used from Gander Mountain, then matched it up with the ABC barrel. Problem with shooting groups now is cost. It might well cost $15 to sight it in if it works.

By the way, we recovered the gut-shot deer last year. She led us on a merry chase for five hours before she collapsed. After I found the first bit of bloody grass, I left her until morning. I got lucky, and she bedded down a quarter mile from where I shot her, and stayed there all night. When we picked up the trail the next morning, she was obviously weak and we pushed her until she dropped. She was still warm when we recovered her. If she had headed directly into the thick stuff after I shot her, I doubt I would have found her.

Waidmann

[Bayrat]

Not possible that the reticles in the scope "float" a bit, so that the first recoil moves them a bit? Then, as time passes, they "float" back to their original position?

Ok, but last I heard, reticles don't just float back to where ever without some kind of "force" acting on them. What would do that????

Yeah, dialing in a rifled barrel can bring you close to the poor house these days.


The kicker is that after I got all my rifled barrels figured out what they like to eat .... my WMU went rifle for deer. After all that, I feel like I should send the state a bill for a new 270, maybe a 308, I'll worry about which after I get the check - yeah right !!!:D

Paul.

[Waidmann]

Paul,

What would push them back? Well, I have no idea. I guess the more I think about it, the less likely it sounds like the scope is the problem. I do have a borescope and a used rifle scope, so it shouldn' be too bad to see if the problem repeats itself with a different scope. I used to reload Buckbuster slugs and get decent groups with my Mossberg, so the cost here might not we too bad. I've got a couple hundred of the slugs left. May as well eliminate the easy and obvious before trying the more difficult (getting a company to swap out barrels).

Thanks for the input.

Mark (aka Waidmann)

[Bayrat]

Waidman,

I would not rule out scope compleatly. Even if you can borrow one just to try, it's all part of the process of elinination.

Loading your own would save ya some change if it works out for ya.

Hunting buddy got the Lyman wasp-waisted slug mold and started casting his own 12 ga slugs. He liked to shoot all through the off season and wanted to cut costs.

He finally got a load that worked very well in his 12 ga, so we ordered slugs for his wife's 20 gauge. Tried every load we could get a recipe for, but still couldn't get the 20's to group in a smooth bore or rifled barrel as well as off-the-shelf ammo.

We sure burned through alot of ammo trying to save money !!!!!

Let me know what you find out.

Bayrat

[Waidmann]

It's been going on a year since I made this post. I've written several emails to Badger Barrel Company without getting any response. I finally gave them a call, and I'm now waiting for a call back. At this point, I'm not sure what I'm going to ask them for. I explained the inconsistant POI I've been experiencing, and I'm going to see what they say.

However, I ran across the following article on their web site. I didn't read this before I began shooting, and it's possible that my problems are due to not having broken in the barrel properly. Which, I'm sure, would make their liability about nothing, unless they wanted to be nice. At any rate, have you all ever heard of breaking in a barrel like this? Any experience if you don't?

Waidmann

Break-in procedure for Barrels
• Break in with jacketed bullets
For the first ten shots we recommend, if possible, using jacketed bullets with a nitro powder load, Clean the oil out of the barrel before each shot using something as simple as Windex™ which will soak the oil out of the pores, After firing each bullet use a good copper cleaner (one with ammonia) to remove the copper fouling from the barrel. We do not recommend anything with an abrasive in it since you are trying to seal the barrel, not keep it agitated.
After cleaning with bore cleaner, clean with Windex after each shot. Use Windex because many bore cleaners use a petroleum base which you want to remove before firing the next shot. This will keep the carbon from building up in the barrel (oil left in the pores, when burned, turns to carbon).
To keep the temperature cool in the barrel, wait at least 5 minutes between break-in shots. The barrel must remain cool during the break-in procedure. If the barrel is allowed to heat up during the break-in, it will destroy the steel's ability to develop a home registration point, or memory. It will have a tendency to make the barrel “walk" when it heats up in the future. I am sure we all have seen barrels that, as they heat up, start to shoot high and then "walk" when it heats up in the future. I am sure we all have seen barrels that, as they heat up, start to shoot high and then "walk" to the right This was caused by improperly breaking in the barrel (generally by sitting at a bench rest and shooting 20 rounds in 5 minutes or so). Then, for the rest of the gun's life the man complains that the barrel is no good. If you take a little time in the beginning and do it right, you will be much more pleased with the barrel in the future.
If you look into the end of the barrel after firing a shot, you will see a light copper -colored wash in the barrel. Remove this before firing the next shot. Somewhere in the procedure, around shot 6 or 7, it will be obvious that the copper color is no longer appearing in the barrel. Continue applications through shot 10.
If you have any ammunition left, you then may shoot 2 rounds and clean it for the next 10 shots. This is simply insuring that the burnishing process has been completed.
In theory you are closing the pores of the barrel metal which have been opened and exposed through the culling and hand lapping procedures.
•
Break in with lead bullets
The same shooting-cleaning process may be used when firing lead bullets and black powder with this exception: shoot 2 bullets, than clean for the first 30 rounds. Naturally, you will use a cleaner appropriate to black powder. You can also use harder lead if available to accelerate the break in. This will accomplish the same as the jacketed bullets.
It may take 80 to 100 rounds to break in with lead. That is why we recommend using jacketed bullets when possible. After this procedure, you barrel's interior surface will be sealed and should shoot cleaner and develop less fouling for the rest of its shooting life.