Swede vs. Bob?

[GF.]

I had just about come around to thinking that a .257 Roberts with a mid-weight copper-solid bullet would be The Choice in a nice, light-kicking rifle for deer and potentially Elk.

But Now I'm thinking that it might be the same case as used for the Swede, and the Swede gives you a lot more options for bullet weights, including some that ought to penetrate as well as just about anything going. A 140-grain monolithic load ought to kill just about anything that will run away from you after the hit, and the recoil has got to be pretty favorable. Plus, you could go to a lighter bullet for deer and cut the recoil even further....


What's your preference, out of the two, and having settled on a the round, what rifle would you feed it into?

And yes, if you have a better solution, let's hear it ;)

[Altjaeger]

While I might prefer the 6.5 I am not sure you would make a bad choice.

The .257 is based on the 7x57 case. The Swedish round is 55mm in length so they are not the same case.

[MOGC]

I would opt for the 6.5mm as a better all around choice.

[rimrock]

if you leave the rifle choice out of the question the 6.5 swede should be the better choice since ELK might be on the list, but I own a 257 roberts in a BLR and it would be hard to find a more accurate and lighter recoiling rifle that handles that well,that and having seen a couple ELK taken over the years with a 257 Roberts Id have zero problems using one on ELK as long as I keep the ranges under about 300yards and can hand load, now if your into bolt guns ID go with the swede, but I like my BLR alot more than any bolt action Ive used.

[southtexas]

I love my 257's and have never owned a Swede. But for deer they are very close and likely you would never see a significant difference in the field.

If you had to take it elk hunting, the Swede would have an obvious advantge of heavier bullets. But then, if I were going after elk, I would want something bigger than a 6.5 anyway.

[Hi Ball]

I hunted with a 1/4 bore (25-06) for over a dozen years but now I have myself a 6.5/06 and that is the cat's meow. It will take on big game when using a 160 grain premium bullet, it would surely take an elk at moderate ranges. It also is gold on the wagon, when going after groundhogs or coyotes with a 100 grain bullet.:D

The Roberts is making a come back with a lot of hunters over the past 5 years. I don't know what the reason but they are great for whitetail deer. The Swede is no couch spud either. I guess the balls in your court and it's your choice and either would be a good one in my book.:)

[postoak]

Based on my experience with the .35 Whelen, I think all of the '06-based cartridges from .22-06 right on up to the .375 Whelen have reasonable recoil, so if there is even any thought of elk, I'd prefer the .25-06 or 6.5-06 over the two choices you mentioned.

[pepaw]

Not be be a smart a$$, but I would choose the .260.
I love the .257 Roberts my dad used and I now shoot occassionally, but the .260 seems to be best in all catagories (if you believe Remington Factory ballistic tables.)
I am not sure which model of rifle I would choose now.

pepaw

[GF.]

PostOak - Of all those you mentioned, the .35 Whelen gets my vote, but just me bein' me, I'd sooner go with more bullet and less powder; say a .338 Federal or an 8mm-08 if I were looking to up the ante by much. Past 50 yards barely gets my heart rate up anymore, and past 200 yards is so far removed from what feels to me like Hunting, it's a joke.

And Pepaw - as a 7-08 shooter, I hear you on the .260; trouble with that one being, IMO, the inability to use a 160-grain bullet in it. Factory 140 grain loads are virtually identical in Swede or .260, so the ballistics advatage that the .260 once had is kind f a thing of the past. I don't give a hoot if the action is a hair shorter or longer, but it's the 160s that make the 6.5 a popular moose round on its home turf, and if I were to consider that slim a bore for Elk, I'd want the additional sectional density. So I hear you, I agree with you that your choice is a nifty little round, and am looking elsewhere ;) I still don;t know what's wrong with a .270-08, though. seems like a 130-grainer bullet for the .270 Win would be very happy at .308-case MVs....

Truth be told, I was looking over the specs on the Rem "Managed Recoil' load for my 7-08, and with 140 grains going at at 2300 feeps, it's probably going to kick (at most) on par with the standard load for the Bob. Which totally deprives me of much excuse to trade off what I've got :D

It's basically a 7-30 Waters in a .308 costume, and I can't imagine a whitetail hunting scenario in this part of the country where even that wouldn't verge on overkill....

[GF.]

Hmmmmm... Stray thought...

Shouldn't there be some nice European singles built for the Swede? Maybe a working man's Blaser or something that wouldn't absolutely destroy the piggie bank. Either that or one of the semi-custom US bolt repeaters, or maybe a good (used?) Tikka, if a guy wanted to still pretend he was planning to send the kids to college some day.....

[southtexas]

Not be be a smart a$$, but I would choose the .260.
I love the .257 Roberts my dad used and I now shoot occassionally, but the .260 seems to be best in all catagories (if you believe Remington Factory ballistic tables.)
I am not sure which model of rifle I would choose now.

pepaw

Pepaw: If I was starting from scratch, and not already heavily involved with the 257 (brass, dies, rifles, bullets, etc) I'd probably pic the 260, too!

[postoak]

GF - I was just saying that recoil of the '06 cartridges -- all of them -- isn't bad, and I'd go for the .25-06 over the .257 Roberts. Of course, I'd go for the .270 WCF over the .25-06! But since the calibers mentioned were .25 and .26, I'd have to vote for the .25-06 over the 6.5-06 simply because of it being a factory round.

[dave-t.]

Either one is a handloading cartridge unless you want to go mail order, or buy whatever dusty box of shells happen to be at the gun shop.

I went with the 257R, but I have the bases covered for bigger bullets going faster.

If I were looking for the lightest recoiling load, I'd look into Rem. 117grn roundnose at 2660fps. Something like 10lbs of felt recoil, and the one box I did buy of this stuff grouped amazingly well for factory loads. That is still a very capable 200+yd deer load. A handloader could bring it down even lower than that, if that was the goal. That 257 RN bullet was designed for the 25-35, so going slow, down to 23-2400fps, shouldn't hurt bullet effect/wound channel, etc.

I'd go CZ for the 6.5, and Ruger for the 257R. Winchester also chambered both rounds at various times.

If I was hunting elk with the Roberts, it would be with the 117grn btsp hornady interlock, 115-120grn partition, or 100grn TSX. The 100grn TTSX is actually a longer projectile than the 117grn btsp hornady.

I think you could shoot a pile of deer with either the 257 or 6.5, and never be able to tell the difference. With elk though, that 160grn looks a lot better. Still, if you were going 160grn full time with the 6.5x55, you'd be just as well off with a 30-30 and 170grn's, imo, and it would be much easier finding ammo and a good deal on the rifle.

[Bushman]

GF, as I don't think that you are handloading currently, unless you mail order Norma ammunition, all that you are going to find for that 6.5x55 is the 140 grain bullet. Remembering that Herne went down to a fast 129 grain Hornady for his, then sold it off in preference for his .270, there could be a lesson in there. I really liked my .257 Roberts on the range because of that low recoil, I just wanted more power Scottie. Either would likely work for deer and I think with the better domestic bullet selection the Roberts might kill a deer a little faster than the 6.5x55, but after seeing an elk up close, I'd use something bigger for those. I'm currently a little down on bolt actions. That said I'd probably put one of those into a new M70 or a light weight Ruger M77 or Hawkeye. With the Roberts I couldn't tell a lot of difference between the Hornady 117 grain Light Magnum or the 120 grain +P Federal Nosler Partitions for penetration in my phone book shoots. The Partition held it's shape better, so I'd probably use those.

[Phil T]

I have a Tikka T3 6.5X55 Swede, and a a couple Rugers in 257 Roberts. There is actually more difference in these cartridges than the .007" bullet diameter would sugest. The Swede has a very fast rifling twist, so it can stabalize heavy (156grains) bullets.
If you're looking for a deer rifle that can be used for varmints, get a 257. If you're looking for a der rifle that can be used for heavier game, go with the Swede.
As I once said on another forum, if I had to chose, my head would say Swede, but my heart would call for the Roberts.

[Bushman]

GF, I've been giving this some more thought and think that you are on the right track just using your existing 7mm-08 with the Remington Managed Recoil loads for deer. Half the recoil and less than even the Roberts or the Swede, more available ammo including standard and +P High Energy loads for the bigger animals. Then I'd take the dollars that I was going to spend on a new rifle and put it into the best scope and mounts that you could find or a custom stock to GFize the rifle just how you want it. Like most of you, I've got a safe full of guns many of which don't even get to go hunting. While the Roberts or the Swede are neat little cartridges, you would be saddled with a short list of available factory loaded cartridges for either one of them.

[GF.]

Yeah, although with the Mtn Rifle arguably in need of an upgraded safety and trigger, I might be better off trading out the Remington and starting over....

Funny thing... There's that article in the new F&S about the rifles we'll be calling 'classics' 100 years from now, in which Petzal says that today's factory rifles are in a class ahead of some of the best custom rifles form 20 years ago... makes me wonder what good a 20-year-old factory rifle could possibly be, but I suppose that's why the gun makers love it when shooting editors say stuff like that :D

Still wish I had a load for this rifle that shoots as well as the 'Extended Range' stuff that Remington was making when it was new; I think my rate of twist might be on the high side, since the rifle was built at the same time that they were pushing that 'new' kind of ammo. Anyway, maybe that will work well with the low-velocity ammo, seeing as low MV = lower RPMs on the bullet = less stability, and a faster rate of twist would provide some off-set...

Anybody know about the Shaw rifles that Petzal spoke so highly of?

[Bushman]

Reminds me of 1965 when Elmer Keith told everyone that the new Winchester M70 was better than the pre-64 version. Remington probably does not put premium barrels on Mountain Rifles, but you can get a custom barrel with any weight taper and any twist that you want. My 7mm-08 M77 Ruger Mk II started out as a .308, but I threw out the barrel and the stock for a Shilen and Kevlar replacement.

[GF.]

So let's see here....

Replace trigger... Check.

Replace safety with a Mauser type... Check.

Replace barrel... Check.

Replace stock... Check.

Call me crazy, but I'm already tired of writing 'checks' for this rifle as it is! :D

But on the brighter side, if I'm replacing the barrel, I can get it chambered in any damn thing I want, so long as it will cycle through the action. :rolleyes:


But let's just say I wanted to replace that barrel with one by Shaw - since they have a good reputation - and I was going to let them do the work of installing it in one of their stocks for me. Seems kinda silly to hang on to a Remington action just because it's already there.....:confused:

[postoak]

Bushman's post about Managed Recoil loads made me look up what is available:

260 Remington - 140 Core-Lokt PSP
7mm-08 Remington - 140 Core-Lokt PSP
270 Win - 115 Core-Lokt PSP
7mm Remington Mag - 140 Core-Lokt PSP
30-30 Win - 125 Core-Lokt SP
30-06 Sprg - 125 Core-Lokt PSP
308 Win - 125 Core-Lokt PSP
300 Win Mag - 150 Core-Lokt PSP
300 Remington Ultra Mag - 150 Core-Lokt PSP

This sure removes a lot of the rationale for getting mild-kicking numbers like the .243 .257, and 6.5x55. In GF's case, the 7mm-08 seems like a solution.

In my case, I'd certainly have to strongly consider the .300 WM. I never wanted one because of the recoil on the range, but now...

[Greybeard]

GF, regarding your original post on a .257 Roberts with a modern copper or copper alloy bullet, the combination would be an adequate elk rifle but would require handloads. Prior to the advent of modern premium controlled expanding bullets, the .257 Roberts was ok minus for elk. With modern bullets, its killing potential on elk goes up significantly. This is also true with the .270s. If I went the posted route, I still would want to use the heaviest bullet that your rifle shot well. I have never used a .257 on elk but I've seen several harvested in our elk camps over the years. And those were with old fashioned bullets like Remington Core-locks.

The .257 was and is one of the best deer rifles around - plenty good enough.

All of the .257s I've shot had light recoil which added nicely to their shootability. I have no experience with the 6.5s. Greybeard/

[Bushman]

Given the choice, I don't think that I would start with a Remington action either. I have always liked the CRF bolts myself. "Fixing" a rifle doesn't need to be an all or nothing thing either. One of my early rifles took years to complete as the finances allowed. Barrel and metal work one year, stock the next, better scope and mounts the next... Sweetness knew that I needed a scope on that rifle, but she didn't know a Simmons from a Swarovski.:D

[pepaw]

GF, no offense, but have you compared the .260 with 140's to the 6.5 with 140's? I am basing that on the Remington ballistics website with Rem Express loads.

The .260 is hands down better. It won't matter to the game, but it is easier to see which one hits harder and shoots flatter. Not sure about recoil, but shouldn't be an issue with either round. The .260 doesn't bother me and I don't like recoil.

Just trying to clarify my .260 lovefest.

pepaw

[Hi Ball]

Pepaw yes indeed!!!........Your spot on as Herne might say mate! However, now compare either to the 6.5/06 or better yet hunters, the .264/06 and it wins out over both prior mentioned calibers. :) :D

I have mine in a model 70 Winchester action and it is accurate to the tune of shooting 100 grain bullets at .665-MOA at 100 yds from the bench. I will also caution those who might believe that the 25/06 is enough gun for elk, trust me I been there and it is not in my humble opinion. :(

The 6.5/06 on the other hand, will get the job done with room to spare when using those 160 grain premium bullets at close to moderate ranges. I don't notice anymore recoil in the 6.5/06 verses the 25/06. ;) :cool:

[postoak]

Only thing, Hi-Ball, the 6.5-06 is a wildcat. Why not just go with the .270 WCF? Of course, if GF is a reloader, it is a moot point.

[postoak]

Hi Ball, what's your thoughts on the .300 WM with managed recoil loads for deer (ballistics about halfway between the .300 Savage and the .308 WCF), and regular loads for elk? This seems the best of both worlds to me.

[GF.]

Hands down? I see about .5"-.75" difference in trajectory out to around 300 yards, and since that's well within the same group for a .5 MOA rifle, I'd say you're really splitting hairs there.

And in any event, you're assuming that faster = better, and for my purposes, it just ain't.

But to play along.....

The .260 is a modern cartridge built for modern rifles; as such, it's loaded to the firewall.

The Swede, on the other hand is an 'obsolete' cartridge, and Remington loads it lawyer-proof levels just in case somebody turns up in deer camp with a sincerely crappy mil-surp. But 'obsolete' cartridges tend to have 'oversized' cases, so if you look at Euro-spec ammo, you'll see that they're getting essentially the same velocity gap as between Remington's Swede load and the .260, but using a 156 grain bullet; feed it a 140 grain Partition and the gap is down to 50 fps, and they do offer a 120 grain Nosler BST at over 2800....

So the Swede has more potential up-side, at lest if you roll your own (which I don't) or if you get your ammo from Norma...

Interestingly enough, though.....

A Greenbox 170 grain 8mm Mauser and a 170 grain .30-30 are nearly twins; and vs. a .30/40 Krag it's really a dead heat. But The Norma loads are more nearly on par with a Whelen, which can pretty well hold its own in the Elk woods....

I'm sure the recoil is a shade higher with the 8M than the 6.5, but me bein' me, I may have just 'discovered' my new favorite/perfect round - Herne's aversion to anything but one load per rifle notwithstanding....;)

[Sabre]

I'm sure you'd really like the deer killing performance of the .30-30/170 grain for the way you hunt. Why not just get a Marlin .30-30 for deer and use your 1895 for elk ? It'd be alot cheaper and easier to find a Marlin .30-30 than a bolt action 6.5 Swede or 8mm mauser.

[Chuck S]

I'd opt for the Bob for deer and the Swede for Elk but if I had to choose one it would be the Bob.

Here's a very similar question on the Swede or the 7mm-08 and how it was broken down.

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/big-game-hunting/50650-6-5x55-swede-7mm-08-a.html check out thea rticle asbout half way down.

[Hi Ball]

PostOak.......I like the .300 Win mag a bunch and always have quite frankly!
Now shooting those lower velocity loads makes recoil a non-issue for 85% of the shooters out there.

I used the .300 Win mag for many years and after I started reloading, it became a one gun hunts all my big game from antelope, whitetail deer, mule deer, elk, moose and bear too. All I had to do was very the velocity by way of powder used and the amount put into the case.

I been reloading a friend of mines bear loads for over 20 years now and he is very happy shooting a 220 grain bullet at 2350fps. Not the hottest mind you but very good penetration and recoil is down from full loads.:)

[Hi Ball]

Yes the .338/06 was a wildcat a few years back but it got brought to life by A-Square and Company. Weatherby was making rifles in the .338/06 caliber. Ammo may still be a little hard to get but so is a lot of the WSM calibers still.

[postoak]

Hi Ball - thanks, I'm glad you agree with me that (assuming the Managed Recoil loads are accurate) that would make a great single caliber cartridge for the hunter who doesn't want to reload, who would like a rifle that will be used mainly for deer, but occasionally for elk or other bigger stuff (or stuff that is farther away).

I didn't know the .338-06 was a factory round now. I had an opportunity to buy a custom one, but passed on it because I thought it was still a wildcat.

[Bushman]

Postoak, the down side of having a .300 WM for a one size does all rifle is going to be the magnum weight of the rifle. That weight will further reduce the felt recoil, but scope one of those wooden stocked magnums and you will be up in the nine pound give or take range for rifle weight. Most of them will have longer barrels as well as that magnum length action.

[dave-t.]

When you leave yourself one option only for available factory loads....You'd better hope they shoot as good as you want, and react in game they way you want. Hope is all you've got to lean on without knowing how they shoot in that particular rifle before hand. Are you willing to accept the managed recoils loads if they shoot 2.5-3" groups at 100yds? Or are you willing to shoot full power loads in search of better accuracy? Something to consider.

If you are worried about recoil, look into a 30-06, .308, or a bunch of other rounds over a 300 mag.

Buy a rifle that fits 90%+ of your needs, don't buy a rifle for full time use that you only need in 10% of your hunting situations. If 90% of your needs is hunting deer at normal ranges, don't buy an elk rifle.

I've shot a 300wm for 16yrs, most of those years it was my only centerfire rifle, and up to now, a .270 would have been just as effective. The 300 is a great cartridge, and mine is just to accurate to part with, but if I knew back then what I know now, I wouldn't have bought a 300mag.

[GF.]

Are you willing to accept the managed recoils loads if they shoot 2.5-3" groups at 100yds? Or are you willing to shoot full power loads in search of better accuracy? Something to consider.



The whole post was good enough to quote it in full, but lemme just weigh in on that one point....

JMO...

If you're looking at the MR loads (as I am) simply because they offer a download to approx. .30-30 levels, then you're probably taking shots at .30-30 ranges. In other words, 1 MOA or 3 isn't going to make dime's worth of difference any time between now and the clap o' doom.

On the other hand, if you were looking at the MR loads for a .300 because the thing is just too damn hot to handle (and I will not fault anyone who's man enough to admit that, any more than I would fault a guy who is honestly 'man enough' too shoot that potent a round perfectly well)... Basically, if the .300 is too much of a good thing, get yourself an '06 or a .308 - as Dave said, don't go fussing around with something that might shoot far worse than your rifle is capable of when you could get the same power output and a whole world of choices in loads by using a cartridge that was designed to shoot at that level in the first place.

Sabre - good point, but I have a lever and I have a scoped bolt. Just me bein' me, I don't like scopes on lever guns. I may have to put one on the 1895 at some point, but honestly, it's a luxury gun that I enjoy using when I have time and opportunity to hold out for a shot not much longer than archery range - and not even as long as what often seems to pass for archery range these days.

The scoped bolt, OTOH, is the meat-gettin', go-to Working Rifle for the way I hunt, and mostly what I hunt is deer these days. (I've actually purchased one centerfire Elk tag in my entire life, and that was 20 years ago - the CF experience was such a zoo that I've hunted them exclusively with bow or ML ever since.)

Anyway, that's why I was thinking Swede/Bob initially - not a lot of sense in owning an Elk-ready rifle if there's only an outside chance of ever using it on an Elk :D

The thing about the 8 Mauser, though, is that it provides the low impact velocities that I would prefer to use at the ranges that I'm likely to shoot; it also does it a lot more affordably than the managed recoil loads for the 7-08, and it's in far less danger of being discontinued.

And you can find it in a bolt-action. There are a lot of lever-gun cartridges that would suit my shooting needs, but not so many that are to be found in the rifle I'm looking for...

[pepaw]

GF,
The .260 is pretty impressive with the factory 120's in it, as long as you are discussing the 6.5.
As far as "hands down", I was reading the ballistics chart of energy and trajectory at the longer distances where differences become apparent. At short range, any reasonable (and sometimes unreasonable) cartridge works for deer.

Have fun buying a new gun.

stumpy

[Bushman]

I don't think that the 7mm-08 is going away any time soon. It started kind of slow back in the '80's and when I built up mine in the '90's a variety of ammo was still not too available. That has changed a lot in the last 10 years.

Dad had a M98 German Mauser in 8x57 and I regret selling it. I still remember that buttery smooth action and we modified the safety to a M70 type which improved it a lot. It had a Bishop stock and a shortened barrel, but it still had the military M98 barrel steps which made it over 9# without a scope. I would have made it into a .35 Whelen by now if I'd have kept it.

Pepaw, the 6.5's have never really been popular with the USA guys. The .264 WM, 6.5 RM or the 6.5x55. I hope that the .260 makes it, but it has some tough sledding against the 7mm-08. Both are loaded to 52,000 PSI which gives your .260 an edge over the 6.5x55 for factory cartridges because the 6.5x55 isn't loaded that hot because of the old weaker military actions. The .260 goes in shorter actions too.

[GF.]

Bush - the 7-08 is here to stay, I'm sure, but the managed recoil stuff might not be....

[Bushman]

I was surprised to even see the MR stuff on the shelf for the 7mm-08 myself as lots of people are buying that chambering for wives and kids because it is pretty mild to begin with. I could see it for the .270, .308, .30-06, 7mm RM, .300 WM and the .300 RUM, but the .30-30, .260 and 7mm-08 were a surprise. They originally brought this stuff out in the .30-06 and magnums, but they must have thought that the market was for the even smaller cartridges.

Around here I'm not really sure why guys buy all those magnums to begin with, my kid with his .300 Wby included. Wannabe harry chested macho I'm thinking. Psst, wanna see my magnum? I watch these guys at the range and "I think I pulled that one" is a pretty commonly heard phrase.

[GF.]

I once saw a guy with a brand new Savage .338WM draw a circle around 5 or 6 holes scattered across a sight-in target as if to show that it was a 'group'.

6-8 MOA off of a solid bench?:eek:

I used to shoot better than that off-hand....

At 100 yards...

With my .22LR....

Using $9/brick ammo...

In a gusty, Laramie wind!

And up-hill both ways!!! :D:D:D

I think the managed recoil stuff is great! They spent all those years selling BiggerFasterMags, and people bought those rifles and 2 boxes of shells, and the rifles are sitting in gun cabinets, along with an average of I'd guess 1.5 boxes worth of ammo.

So now they can charge a premium for the downloaded ammo, which people might even get out and shoot, and once they find out that shooting can be kind of enjoyable, we may even see a big resurgence of entirely sensible rounds for hunting at normal whitetail ranges of 100 yards and in... And then, when the demand for regular 'mag' ammo drops, they can raise the prices on that, too....

And I'm gonna make a prediction that an awful lot of these will be 'new' cartridges which will duplicate old, levergun-class ballistics, but which have been designed to fit into an AR type of platform. Stuff like the .450 Bushmaster, only in the 6-8 mm bracket...

You heard it here first ;)

[Sabre]

And I'm gonna make a prediction that an awful lot of these will be 'new' cartridges which will duplicate old, levergun-class ballistics, but which have been designed to fit into an AR type of platform. Stuff like the .450 Bushmaster, only in the 6-8 mm bracket...

You heard it here first ;)

You mean stuff like the 6.8 SPC ?;)

[GF.]

Is that the .270/.233? If so, then Yeah, that's the ticket!

Jack Belk had a cute little round he called the Cheapshot. A light 6mm bullet crammed into a .223 case. Cheap brass, cheap bullets, great fuel economy.

But not enough poop for anything much bigger than a coyote, he said - if that.

To make it as a deer round, they're gonna have to outperform a .30-30 at a bare minimum....

[Sabre]

Actually, while the 6.8 SPC was specifically designed to function in the AR-15 platform it is based on the old .30 Remington case, which is essentially a rimless .30-30 itself. No real need to "outperform" the .30-30 for deer. In my opinion it's one of the best deer cartridges ever invented. I've been killing the hell out of deer with mine for nearly four decades and have yet to have a failure from 10 - 300+ yards. If there's a more underrated deer cartridge out there than the .30-30 I don't know what it is. Mind you I'm not trying to say it's a good 300 yard deer cartridge. It worked for me once at that range because of intimate familiarity with my rifle and the fact that I knew the range in that field from shooting woodchucks in it over the summer. It is however, VERY capable out to 200 yds. and most don't need to be shot at any further than that.

[GF.]

That would be the ticket, then, wouldn't it? Performance-wise, anyway.

I just can't abide the thought of deer hunting with a black rifle, though. I'm sure that a lot of guys will love it, but somehow toting a rifle as heavy as the Remington .308-based model doesn't excite me. Hell, that thing weighs more than my 34"-barreled .54 roundball-chucker.:eek:

As far as my suggested requirement of outperforming the .30-30, though - that's just to make it marketable. Stupid as it is, a lot of guys think of a .30-30 as being only barely adequate for deer... But you pump a 150-grain bullet up to about 2450 fps, make your sales pitch based on 'a whole new breed of sensible, accurate & highly efficient cartridges for Serious Hunters who know what they're doing' and watch 'em fly off the shelves.


Just noticed that Hornady has a pair of new 6.5mms out now - the Creedmore throws a 120-grain copper solid at 3000 fps and the Grendel fits in an AR and throws a 120-grain A-Max at a little over 2600. With the right bullet, that could make for a very tidy little deer gun, IMO... Makes me wonder why Jack thought his Cheapshot was lacking in power, but maybe he had dialed it for varmint bullets.