A QDM success

[Laturkeyhtr]

I know there are those thta feel QDM just makes it easier for some to tak a quality buck. When you are talking about generating interest in our sport to the youngsters of today, QDM makes good sense.

It gives them to opportunity to take does easily enough but it also lets them get a chance at a quality buck.

Here is one such example. This young man has taken three deer in his like, a doe fawn (three yrs ago), a 4 point (last yr) then this 8pt (last week). I credi QDM with the fact that there are quite a few of these in the woods now and he got to take one. And believe me, it really made his day and improved his interest in the sport.

The stats: 3.5 yr old, weighed 163 pounds and was shot with a Marlin 30-30 at 165 yards from an elevated blind.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo136/Laturkeyhtr_2008/Jarods8pt.jpg

[venado]

LATH, that looks like Jarod and that toothy smile tells it all. Congratulations to the young man and may he follow in his fathers footsteps.

BTW, those braces reminded me that my daughters always ragged me about them wearing my new pickup in their mouth..!:D

[pepaw]

Great photo. Thanks for sharing.
Congrats to everyone!

pepaw

[Sabre]

I don't see how it has anything to do with QDM. I took a spike horn and a doe my first season, a 3 point my second season and a 10 point my third season. That was back in the mid 70's before anyone around here had ever heard of QDM. Lots of my schoolmates enjoyed similar success back then as it was very easy to gain access to prime hunting land absolutely FREE FOR THE ASKING. Many of us would not have been able to take up the sport at all today, because as teenagers we wouldn't be able to afford to buy hunting land or pay todays outrageous lease fees. You QDM folks talk a good line about getting the next generation started into the sport of hunting but the UNVARNISHED TRUTH is that the TROPHY HUNTER/ BIG ANTLER CRAZE and it's spinoff program QDM has closed off free access to hunting land almost completely and effectively "locked out" any potential young hunter who's father/relatives don't own or lease land. For perpetuating/advocating that you all {QDM supporters} aught to be horse whipped....... You're killing the sport of hunting.:mad:

[Laturkeyhtr]

Sabre, I expected nothing less out of you, so you did not disappoint me.

But the other side of your comment, you with all of your negativity do nothing for the sport either and should be whipped as well.

[pepaw]

Damn you QDM guys.

I remember when our lease cost $1.50 acre! Of course, our trucks costs $3,000 new. And gasoline was 29 cents/gallon.

Quit not shooting those young bucks! It is costing me a fortune.


pepaw

[Sabre]

Sabre, I expected nothing less out of you, so you did not disappoint me.

But the other side of your comment, you with all of your negativity do nothing for the sport either and should be whipped as well.

Well now there you're wrong. I took two teenagers {friends of my nephew}who told me they wanted to hunt but didn't have anyplace to go, to a couple of my best spots. The landowners are longtime friends of mine and I knew they would give them permission if I asked but I wanted the boys to go along so they could meet the landowners in person and ask for themselves. Permission was granted as I knew it would be {free of charge} and two new young hunters have entered the field. One of them shot a 5 point buck out of one of my ground blinds last weekend and was very excited and proud. This is FAR from the first time I've shared a hunting spot/gotten permission for someone to hunt and I'm sure it won't be the last.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Sabre, congrats for taking the kids hunting, now do you have a pix that you can share with us of this hunt?

What I was making reference to was that your negativity does nothing for the sport. Not that you don't take a kid hunting.

[TJF]

Congrats to your boy !! Very nice buck !!

QDM probably did have a hand in it. While I am probably one you are referring to that QDM just makes it easier for the buck hunters. It is far from the truth. I believe in shooting does and have shot a lot more does then bucks over the years.

I want our state to stay away from TDM which is much different then QDM. I want our state to manage our deer herd for the health of the herd. They've done a good job so far !! I don't want our state to be pressured by dim witted hunters who need it easier to kill big bucks yet can't refrain from shooting a young buck when the going gets tough. Basically pushing for a law to control themselves. How stupid is that but it is the mentality of todays society!! I don't want our state to be pressured by guiding to make it easier for thier clients...when leasing up land and " not " killing does is their agenda. The ones around here aren't interested in QDM. Their clients are paying for bucks. This is a much different world then a well managed outfitter in Texas or a group of hunters leasing land practicing QDM that you are use to.

I hope it takes forever before leasing land for deer hunting is big here. You boys might have grown up leasing but I haven't. Most in our state haven't !! A friendly hand shake has worked for me for 35 years now. I've made some very good friends of the people who allowed me to hunt their land. My kids and friends have benefited by it. I've introduced a lot more people into hunting on account of it then I would have if I was leasing. I know by the time my grandkids are hunting... leasing or public land will be their only choices. TDM will only push it along faster. Like Saber said... many of us would have never been able to take up hunting if leasing was the only chioce. Hunter numbers are getting smaller. There is a reason for that. Access is probably the Number 1 factor !! Leasing isn't helping !!

I really don't think you guys understand were we are coming from. We live in two different worlds. I am liking mine a lot better then I like yours. We don't need change !! I probably get a lot more enjoyment out of my hunting then most of you. Course I can just walk out my door and start hunting. :D

Again congrats to your son !!

[southtexas]

"I really don't think you guys understand were we are coming from. We live in two different worlds."

IMO you hit the nail on the head. We live in different worlds, what works in one area may not be appropriate in another area.

QDM is necessary in Texas where there is little public land, private land is rapidly being subdivided into smaller and smaller parcels, demand for hunting property is high, deer population and buck/doe ratios are out of control.

This is very different from what I understand Sabre's situation to be (lots of public land, deer population controlled by severe winters, etc).

To extrapolate your local situation to the rest of the planet and conclude that QDM is the source of all evil....well, you know.;)

[Sabre]

IMO you hit the nail on the head. We live in different worlds, what works in one area may not be appropriate in another area.

QDM is necessary in Texas where there is little public land, private land is rapidly being subdivided into smaller and smaller parcels, demand for hunting property is high, deer population and buck/doe ratios are out of control.

Trophy hunting, QDM and the lease system is your problem when it comes to keeping your deer populations in check. My grandfather never had problems of too many deer on his farm. He never posted his land and everyone in the area knew they were welcome to hunt anytime they wanted for free. He had A 247 acre dairy farm of which 90 acres was wooded hillside and it wasn't uncommon to see 8-10 guys hunting the property on opening day. It's the same with every landowner I know around here who gives hunting permission freely. They always end up with PLENTY of guys hunting their property to easily keep deer numbers in check. My next door neighbor has 126 acres of fallow farm land. He does post his land but doesn't hunt himself and has given permission to 8 guys that I know of. Believe me he has no trouble with over population. The trouble comes when landowners start leasing their land to trophy hunters. Those hunters demand and pay for high deer density and low hunter density and then people wonder why it's so hard to keep deer numbers in check. I've heard some of these Texas lease holders say one hunter to every 100-200 acres is plenty. Around here it's common to have one hunter for every 10-20 acres on non leased private farm land. Overpopulation only occurs on land that is locked up by hunters who severely limit how many can hunt the property {either because they bought the land for hunting or leae it} and by bunny hugger types who allow no hunting at all.

[Laturkeyhtr]

TJF,

No,you are not the one that I was referring to, it is some of the others that are against QDM.

And let me set your thought processes straight about me. I live in Louisiana and it is not like Texas. We do have leases, but it primarily (not completely) company owned timber land. I am sure it began more because of the liabililty issues related to having hunters on their land. No matter, it is here to stay. There is still a lot of privately owned land, but for the most part it is hunted by family or they allow others to hunt it. Of course some of it is leased because money is what runs this world.

I too being a stay at home Dad have NO descretionary income to spend on hunting. Instead, I have to depend on my wife to give me what she can afford. I hunt the same land that I began hunting on in 1961. It was my Dads old homeplace and inspite of it finally being devided amongst his sisters, I still have access to it all. I can assure you had I not started a QDM coopertive with some nearby neighbors my son wouldn't have had the opportunity that he did. And for the record, I too shoot very few bucks and hammer the hell out of the does and have done so for the past 17 years or so.

I hope you too can continue to hunt as you do. But understand that as ST said, without leasing there are folks here that don't own enough land to have a place to hunt and we don't have the large farms as you do up there to get permission to hunt.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Sabre, sure with that many folks hunting (one hunter per ten acres) how do you describe the quality of their hunting experience? Personally I don't like to hunt near others. Safety is a real concern and the opportunity to take reasonable game is almost non existent for the majority of those you speak of.

But you go ahead and keep those numbers in check and enjoy hunting that way.

[southtexas]

Sabre: No the trouble began in Texas long before QDM was ever heard of. We started having over population problems in the early '70's. There became too many does and not enough bucks. This was becasue everyone wanted a buck, and had been conditioned from early life that shooting does was bad. (which it was at the time).

Back then no one knew what a B&C score was, hunting access was often free or cheap.

Another factor was the elimination of the screw worm, which had help keep populations down.

"Overpopulation only occurs on land that is locked up by hunters who severely limit how many can hunt the property..." this is categorically false.

As TJF wisely stated: "I really don't think you guys understand were we are coming from. We live in two different worlds." And telling stories about how your grandaddy did it in your area is not relevant.

[Sabre]

As TJF wisely stated: "I really don't think you guys understand were we are coming from. We live in two different worlds." And telling stories about how your grandaddy did it in your area is not relevant.

How my grandaddy did it is totally relevant. He only died and his land sold 4 years ago so this isn't ancient history. The new owner is a big he-man "trophy hunter" and won't give anyone permission. He and his son are now the only ones who hunt the property. The same thing is going on all over. Deer populations are getting harder and harder to control the more it happens.

[southtexas]

It's only relevant to the local situation.

One of the basic tenents of QDM is to match the deer population to the local carrying capacity of the range. If your "he-man trophy hunters" are not controlling the population, they are not practicing QDM.

[Sabre]

Sabre, sure with that many folks hunting (one hunter per ten acres) how do you describe the quality of their hunting experience? Personally I don't like to hunt near others. Safety is a real concern and the opportunity to take reasonable game is almost non existent for the majority of those you speak of.

But you go ahead and keep those numbers in check and enjoy hunting that way.

So you are part of the problem of declining hunter numbers and license sales. Like I said, you and your kind {trophy hunter/QDM promoters} are killing the sport. Sure the hunting is tougher for each individual with more competition and fewer deer. Despite that, I managed to take deer off my grandfathers farm every year I hunted there, and took several nice bucks over the years. So did alot of other folks who hunted his land. Despite the number of people who hunted, there was never a hunting accident on the place in the span from 1946 when he bought it to 2005 when it was sold.

[Sabre]

It's only relevant to the local situation.

One of the basic tenents of QDM is to match the deer population to the local carrying capacity of the range. If your "he-man trophy hunters" are not controlling the population, they are not practicing QDM.

You can't legally control the population when tags are limited and you've got too few hunters for the acreage.

[southtexas]

You can't legally control the population when tags are limited and you've got too few hunters for the acreage.

Another great example of how situations are different in different areas!

And that would only confirm that QDM is not being practiced.

[GF.]

SoTex....

So what bothers me about your response there is this....

Once you have a situation such as Sabre has described, the only solution is to allow a very few landowners to kill very large numbers of does - which most won't do because they just don't have the means nor the inclination to process and consume that much meat. Next thing you know, the same landowners who have locked out the local 'meat hunters' are looking for crop damage tags so that they can shoot year-round.... and what happens to those carcasses? The landfill? A mass grave out behind the barn? Even if they go to the food shelves, there are plenty of folks around like Sabre who rely pretty heavily on deer meat to keep their grocery bills in check, but these are not the kind of person you will find picking up a grocery bag full of ground venison at the local food shelves....


Like you, I don't care for crowded hunting areas, so unless I can get access to private land, I'm not likely to hunt at all. And certainly not in the lottery-controlled public-land firearms units, where they use a drawing to keep hunter density down to 1 gun/20 acres. The first firearms season is too crowded, and with success rates in the low single digits, the second shotgun season and ML seasons are scarcely worth messing with. Not that I own a slug gun anyway...

So rather than 3 tags a year (CF, ML & bow) I might buy only one. And by that I mean not "might buy one instead o' three", but might not even buy the one (archery) tag. And if you think that's good for the state game dept's revenues.....:rolleyes:

I get a sense that Sabre is particularly cranked out of shape on the whole subject because he has lost access to his grandfather's place. So let's agree - that's gotta hurt. So yeah, on the one hand I totally sympathize and on the other hand, well, them's the breaks. It's too bad the land wasn't kept in the family, but it wasn't and the new owners can do what they want to do. It just hardly seems right to me, though, to have a few landowners potentially sending crop damage carcasses to the dump when there are plenty o' local guys around who are striking out on the over-hunted public land and who would give an awful lot in exchange for the chance to take those same 'culled' animals on a regular-season tag.

It is - in effect - a privatization of a public resource, and that just doesn't sit well with me. If'n I were the ag damage control Czar, any landowner who doesn't allow hunting on their property and who then came around asking for compensation or a culling permit would cheerfully be told to piss up a rope. You create a problem for yourself, don't come looking for somebody else to bail you out.

[southtexas]

GF: Interesting points. I would fully agree, that if guys are applying for crop damage permits and dumping the deer, that's not good.

But I realy can't comment much on Sabre's situation, because I'm not familiar with the local conditions. I had understood from past posts that Sabre lives near hundreds of thousands of acres of national forest...almost outside his back door. And that there is no overpopulation problem due to the severe winters.

In areas that I am familiar with, there are no shortage of doe permits. And while the trend is improving, there are still more bucks taken than does. Our deer seasons are very long and bag limits are generous. And, IMO, the county P&W biologists are pretty close to the local situation, and if more does need to be taken, more tags are made available.

On another point, seems to me that if Mr he-man-Trophy-hunter-land-owner doesn't control the population on his property, the flora will be degraded to where the deer will migrate away from his property and onto adjoining properites.

As another example of why we all may be talking past each other because of local differences, ideally, the country I hunt will support about 1 adult deer per 30 acres. To have one hunter per 10 or 20 acres, would not only be very unsafe, it would be silly and no one would do it, much less pay to do it.

Sabre's grandfather had 247 acres. Where I hunt, at 1 deer per 30 acres, it takes 500-1000 acres to support one trophy buck. So it just an entirely different scale. 250 acres would not be enough land to have your own trophy kingdom. And it just doesn't make sense to sit 2000 miles away and pass judgement on how things are done.

[Sabre]

SoTex....

So what bothers me about your response there is this....

Once you have a situation such as Sabre has described, the only solution is to allow a very few landowners to kill very large numbers of does - which most won't do because they just don't have the means nor the inclination to process and consume that much meat. Next thing you know, the same landowners who have locked out the local 'meat hunters' are looking for crop damage tags so that they can shoot year-round.... and what happens to those carcasses? The landfill? A mass grave out behind the barn? Even if they go to the food shelves, there are plenty of folks around like Sabre who rely pretty heavily on deer meat to keep their grocery bills in check, but these are not the kind of person you will find picking up a grocery bag full of ground venison at the local food shelves....


Like you, I don't care for crowded hunting areas, so unless I can get access to private land, I'm not likely to hunt at all. And certainly not in the lottery-controlled public-land firearms units, where they use a drawing to keep hunter density down to 1 gun/20 acres. The first firearms season is too crowded, and with success rates in the low single digits, the second shotgun season and ML seasons are scarcely worth messing with. Not that I own a slug gun anyway...

So rather than 3 tags a year (CF, ML & bow) I might buy only one. And by that I mean not "might buy one instead o' three", but might not even buy the one (archery) tag. And if you think that's good for the state game dept's revenues.....:rolleyes:

I get a sense that Sabre is particularly cranked out of shape on the whole subject because he has lost access to his grandfather's place. So let's agree - that's gotta hurt. So yeah, on the one hand I totally sympathize and on the other hand, well, them's the breaks. It's too bad the land wasn't kept in the family, but it wasn't and the new owners can do what they want to do. It just hardly seems right to me, though, to have a few landowners potentially sending crop damage carcasses to the dump when there are plenty o' local guys around who are striking out on the over-hunted public land and who would give an awful lot in exchange for the chance to take those same 'culled' animals on a regular-season tag.

It is - in effect - a privatization of a public resource, and that just doesn't sit well with me. If'n I were the ag damage control Czar, any landowner who doesn't allow hunting on their property and who then came around asking for compensation or a culling permit would cheerfully be told to piss up a rope. You create a problem for yourself, don't come looking for somebody else to bail you out.

Good post GF. Very insightfull and dead on. Sure do miss being able to sit in my old stand on the hillside and looking down to see the lights come on at my grandparents place in the pre-dawn darkness. Wish we could have kept it in the family but I had no control over that and the money just wasn't there. Thankfully I have other places to hunt and there is still land in the family. Still, there is a part of me that would like to gut, skin and butcher the selfish bastard that bought the old homestead. I'm not alone in those feelings as I've talked to others who hunted there for decades and have now given up hunting altogether, rather than look for another place and/or hunt elsewhere.

[TJF]

Laturkey and southtexas

Thanks for the responses. I enjoy following your guy's posts along with pepaw, TexasM and Venado's posts to see what it is like for you in those areas. Plus I like seeing what you guys are killing or taking pictures off.

I wish I was a traveling man as I would love to meet and get to see your hunting properties as I know it is very different from mine. That would be very interesting to me.

If any of you ever make it up to ND... look me up. I'd gladly show you around and even taking you hunting if you wanted. Deer rifle is a lottery but bow is over the counter. Venado would get a kick out of our late summer scouting and we would put him and his camera to work.

Tim

[southtexas]

Tim: thanks for the kind words. I would love to visit ND. however, based on what I saw on the news tonight, I might want to wait til summer!:)

[Laturkeyhtr]

GF, I couldn't agree more with your statement "If'n I were the ag damage control Czar, any landowner who doesn't allow hunting on their property and who then came around asking for compensation or a culling permit would cheerfully be told to piss up a rope. You create a problem for yourself, don't come looking for somebody else to bail you out."

I too agree that it is ashamed that Sabre's granddad died and the result was the family losing the farm. However . . . . this is a fact of life nowadays and as I am sure that Venado and ST will tell you it if happening in Texas. The sad thing is these days "family and family ties" and the whole concept of what it means is being lost right along with the rural way of life. The times, they are a changing! But moaning about it and criticising the ones of us that are picking up the pieces and trying to move on when in fact we all have the same basic goals (to see to it that we can continue to hunt).

TJF, if I ever come to ND, I would love to be able to hunt with you and your boy, nothing would please me more. Do you have elk hunting near to you? Surely you have some Merriams turkey hunting close by?

[venado]

Tim is very wise when it comes to the old man and winter...!:D I spent a couple of years "camping" with the US Army on a mountain in Germany and I really decided then that cold weather was not my thing. I'd love to do some of that summer scouting and I'd work out that long lens at some of those great cold country deer that Tim and Tyler have staked out.

[TJF]

Awwww come on it isn't that cold here. Just the other night I climbed out of my stand and it was a balmy 10 below. :rolleyes: I scrapped this past's morning hunt not because it was 20 below but because the wind didn't die down like it was suppose to. The wind can be very brutal here in this open country and I was looking at a mile walk in just to bowhunt a spot. That would have been a nasty walk. :eek:

I will be out tomorrow night. With daytime highs of 5 below... it should be some good bowhunting. Got to get up close to a buck Tyler and I scouted up this afternoon. Not a monster but respectable if he makes the 4.5 year old caught off. He might be a very good 3.5 year old and gets a pass if that is the case. I've got 20 some days to fill my last tag. Shot 2 doe with bow already so I would like a good buck but will shoot a doe that last couple days to finish filling the freezer if a good buck isn't in the cards.


Very few turkeys in my area. Other areas of the state have pretty decent numbers of them. With the lack of trees in my area, winters are just to brutal for them. No elk in my area although there are some within 60 miles of me. Resident hunting only for them as we just don't have a great population of them to allow non-residents to hunt them. They do raffle off one elk tag... which I believe a non-resident could bid on but you better have a very, very, very deep wallet.

Tim

[GF.]

In areas that I am familiar with, there are no shortage of doe permits. And while the trend is improving, there are still more bucks taken than does. Our deer seasons are very long and bag limits are generous. And, IMO, the county P&W biologists are pretty close to the local situation, and if more does need to be taken, more tags are made available.

No shortage of permits, but who is allowed to do the shooting, and are they willing to do as much as is needed?





On another point, seems to me that if Mr he-man-Trophy-hunter-land-owner doesn't control the population on his property, the flora will be degraded to where the deer will migrate away from his property and onto adjoining properites.


Two words, bro: Food Plots.

It's very easy to raise enough food for a ridiculous number of deer if you're just fool enough to be willing to pay to do it. And given the outlandish trophy fees people are now willing to pay for 'trophy' whitetails at operations such as those you see on every 'hunting' show, it seems to me that the severity of this nation's Fool Shortage has been vastly overstated. :rolleyes:

Trouble is, IMO, that hunting has been badly perverted in the past 30-50 years; it's no longer about spending time in the woods communing with nature or doing a little male bonding with friends and family; and it's no longer about anything as simple as putting food on the table.

It's not that the 'majority' of hunters have lost their way, but what has happened in a lot of places, I think, is that there have been enough of them to lock up the remaining huntable land, now that so much of the old farmland has been carved into 2-5 acre micro-estates and dotted with McMansions filled with PETA-supporting suburbanites.

The guys who just wanna go out and do a little hunting are getting squeezed out. I was honestly hoping that the recession would provide some of the wealthier 'hunters' with a good, solid Dope Slap - a not too subtle awakening to the fact that their preferred form of consumption is just plain stupid.

But I'm not holding my breath....

[southtexas]

"No shortage of permits, but who is allowed to do the shooting, and are they willing to do as much as is needed?"


GF:

The short answer is no. Slightly longer answer is that "they" are willing to kill enough bucks (usually 1.5 years olds) but not enough does, so the overpopulation continues, as does the improper buck/doe ratio.




"Two words, bro: Food Plots."



Food plots may work in most areas. But in my country, where rain is in short supply, they don't. If you have enough rain for a food plot, then there is enough rain for the native flora...which is likely to have as much or more protien as whatever you might plant in a food plot.

The alternative is "supplemental feeding" (AKA "rain-in-a'bag") which, I agree, can be carried too far.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Tim, my wallet is not too deep, in fact, I don't even own a wallet and my pockts will hold all that my wife gives me. :D