There are NO Venados in Pennsylvania.

[Badger]

Venado,

I have been afield for the last three days in the Pennsylvania rifle deer season. I did not see you; where are you hunting in Pennsylvania? When were you EVER (or NEVER ?) in Pennsylvania? LOL. Post all the pictures you want, but WHERE is your credibility? I saw a forkhorn opening day. IS that YOUR PGC success story from afar? We need your input. Your photo of one big buck is nothing new, but "One swallow does not make a Summer." Tell us which of Pennsylvania's 67 Counties you are hunting in and give us your first-hand report of "Big Deer." LOL!

Badger

[Laturkeyhtr]

Hey Badger! Would your response be any different if a PA hunter posted the pix? If I recall, I posted a pix last year and then had the hunter step in here, register and explain what he had done to accomplish a similar task.

Be well and hope you will hang around.

[Badger]

LATH,

My post was a spoof on the Outlanders' view of Pennsylvania deer. I hope you are well.

Bob Frye is a writer often mentioned here in relation to PA deer. In his front page article of "Pennsylvania Outdoor News" in the December 4, 2009 edition he says in his article. "Antler limits don't equal trophy bucks." It is a good read, especially for Long Range PA Experts who never hunt here. LOL. The results are WHAT us RESIDENTS knew all along. Duh.

On page 3 of the same issue, Editor Jeff Mulhollem states, "Stop pretending antler regs yield record bucks." This paper arrived yesterday and that is why I said we have "No Venados in PA." If Venado is interested, our RECORD bucks were shot in 1943, 1974 for the second and third in 1930.

I know this will stifle Venado's Gary Alt HERO WORSHIP, but facts are facts. The current PGC Board may "Stay the (Gary Alt) Course", but the ARs are BJBS and the facts prove it.

Be well, LATH. The Pennsylvania Folks are aware of our deer situation.

Badger

[Sabre]

Yeah, I just love how whenever a nice buck is taken in an area with AR's these days it's always credited as solid "proof" of how well AR's are working.:rolleyes: I recently saw a picture of a guy from one of NY's pilot AR DMU's proudly posing with an obvious 2.5 year old 8 point and he held up this great trophy as solid proof of how successful the program has been.:confused: What a sad state of affairs. The truth is there are thousands of bucks FAR BIGGER than his little 8 pointer killed every season in the non AR area's of NY. The pages of "New York outdoor news" are full of them every year.;)

[Badger]

Sabre,

You got it right from the get go!

It is too bad the LONG RANGE PA EXPERTS are still reading PGC news releases, and believing what they read. Unfortunately the nitwits on the Game Commission Board are "Staying the Course" because they have no clue.

I let a forkhorn and 9 does walk so far because the ALT Program was a farce from the beginning. Unfortunately, many KILLERS will try to fill every deer tag PGC gleefully sells to the numb nuts. What we now have in PA hardly appears to even the dullest person to be Quality Deer Management. I support QDM IF and WHEN it ever comes to PA. In the meantime we have Alt's "Kill The Deer" scenario and the concurrent Game Lands becoming a TREE FARM for the valuable hardwoods.

Badger

[Altjaeger]

LATH,
Be well, LATH. The Pennsylvania Folks are aware of our deer situation.

Badger

You mean the great number, and very possible majority of Pennsylvania hunters who support the PGC? :D

[venado]

Badger, that buck in the other thread was killed in the same general area as that nice buck that I posted from that area last season, which you stupidly suggested came from a game farm. As that one did not, this one didn't either. It must be one of two things in your case, either you wouldn't know a buck from Adam's house cat if you saw one or you are too busy blaming others to do a bit of QDM so that you can have deer on the property you hunt. With the help that you have been given on here by LATH, by bringing your north central neighbor here to discuss his success, which you ignored, I'm leaning toward the latter.

Have you thought about hunting with a bright 5 year old kid, he would pretty quickly say "Mr. Badger why don't we hunt where the deer are??" Of course I did say bright (probably not a relative).

Badger, this looks like the moon to me but I have not been there, so it must not exist from your warped perspective. :rolleyes:

http://z.about.com/d/space/1/7/Q/7/1/PIA00405.jpg

[Badger]

Venado,

Your well-known lack of PA experience is mind numbing even to you. Be it the Moon or PA, you know not. LOL.

As for "Go look for deer where they are", I suggest the PGC has killed them off ala the Buffalo in the 1880s. You COULD have taken your Sharps Buffalo Rifle afield all of the 1890s and NOT found a Buffalo. WOT? Well, they like the PA deer, MOST were killed PER ALT despite your QDM mindset (?). A four year old would have told you, "There are NO MORE Buffalo, but you read the PGC Newsletter and hunted ON and ON for a QDM experience. DUH.

I notice you FAILED to say when you LAST hunted in PA. Well, does that imply you have never been in PA or just assume you can be "Expert" from afar. Why not tell us about the deer hunting on the MOON? You know ALL in this Universe and the next, eh, wot? LOL. Whenever you drop YOUR BJBS, maybe even a Texan will hear you out. LOL. I would never say you have a "Warped Perspective." You being a Texan is enough, already! LOL!!!

Badger

[Renegade]

"The results are WHAT us RESIDENTS knew all along. Duh."

Let us be more specific and say "those residents who took the time to learn about what the PGC's deer program is to accomplish".
For years now the naysayers have been complaining about not wanting Pa to be a trophy state, not needing the restriction raised to produce trophies for some, etc., etc. Now, if I'm reading you right, some are trying to champion Bob Frye's statement that "antler limits don't equal trophy bucks" as if you never heard that before. I hear a collective sign from those who DID take the time saying "Duh, no $hit"!
The only folks whom ever made the claim that PA's AR was about trophy bucks were those who had no clue about the management plan. If you didn't grasp that before I'm happy to see that some are finally getting it.

I also find it funny that some want to compare the harvest records on the PGC website to suit their agenda. Never mind that it only lists bucks from those folks who took their rack to be scored, as opposed to all harvests, but they attempt to compare a list that took roughly 7 decades to achieve and compare it to less than 1 decades worth of harvest, and ignore the fact that in the second year of AR an entry was made for number 11 on the typ. rifle list (15th on non-typ), or to be number 1 for typ. archery in the second year along with 5 of the top ten taken since AR went into effect, or number 1 for non-typ. archery as well.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/browse.asp?a=485&bc=0&c=69938

[venado]

Hey Renegade, glad you are still looking in when PA becomes the subject.

Since you are there daily, Badger has a difficult time attempting to question your credibility. You unfortunately want to deal in facts while Badger gets tied up in emotion which appears to control his life in these discussions of deer.

It has become obvious to everyone that he does not want to make things better for himself but prefers to expend his efforts on constant complaint. (He must be closely associated with the USP but is not yet "special" like his heros Slinsky and Levengood.) In the years that he has posted on this forum, he has aparently learned nothing about PA while the rest of us have learned a lot.

Imagine that someone that claims to live in PA would complain about big deer in PA when a Texan brings them to his attention. The easier course of action would be for him to admit that there are still good hunters in the state that hunt more and complain less.

I find it interesting that the buck kill success in PA has not changed through the 80s, 90s, on through 2008? Success has remained the same for real hunters which apparently excludes Badger.

[GF.]

I let a forkhorn and 9 does walk so far

So you're hunting where you can afford to pass up the first 10 or more legal animals that you see, but you're complaining about not having enough deer in the state :confused:

And your count so far is running 9 to 1 in does, but you seem to think that the herd's sex ratio must be in balance :confused:

And you're complaining about ARs that would compel you to pass up young bucks like the one that you saw and passed up, so is that really going to affect you? :confused: (I know Sabre has said that it might well affect him, as a 'meat hunter', so he has a solid reason to oppose the ARs; I'm just wondering what your rationale might be).

And just exactly how is it that passing up younger bucks doesn't lead, over time, to an accumulation of older bucks of the variety that you apparently are interested in seeing and shooting? :confused:

Personally, I'm not favorable towards 'trophy' management, because it looks way too much like Deer Farming to me. But I do recognize the importance of conserving the ecosystem and managing it for the benefit all of the native species, not only the ones that I'm interested in hunting myself.

And I am in favor or maintaining a reasonably natural age structure (which you just can't get when all but a few of the bucks get drilled during their first rut) and a reasonably balanced sex ratio (which you can't get if the annual harvest is skewed too far towards bucks). Bucks do naturally have a higher mortality rate, but it's nothing at all similar to what happens when hunters selectively take only males.

That's not to say that you can't get the occasional whopper-sized rack in an area where there are no doe tags and no antler restrictions, but what the herd needs in order to stay balanced is not to have a very few bucks living to very ripe old ages, but something approaching what you see under natural predation (not that humans are totally unnatural, but let's say comparable to a few thousand years ago).

Because if the herd structure resembles that in which all of their behaviors evolved, you're going to have a nice, healthy herd.

And if you don't buy the evolutionary argument, feel free to think of it in terms of "That's how God wanted it in the first place."

Whatever works for ya...

Anyway, if you can articulate for me just how it is that passing up younger bucks and taking more does is going to frustrate an attempt at restoring the herd to a natural age & sex structure, and keeping the overall numbers in line with what the landscape can support for the long haul, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Myself, I'd be far happier seeing ten deer (over maybe a full season, instead of just a day or so), but with those being six does, a coupla 1.5YO bucks, a 2.5 and an 'old' dude of 3.5 years or more.

[Renegade]

Well said GF and some very valid points. I can never figure out why some claim to be meathunters but complain about antler restrictions and won't shoot doe. When in reality QDM gives you the best of both worlds while it's focus is on having healthy deer. Some are just in very deep denial I guess.

Yeah Venado I still check in once and a while. Nice buck by the way. There's rumor of a 32" spread buck taken around here. I say it's rumor until I have solid verification. My brother-in-law knows the guy but hasn't seen the deer yet, so I can't back it up. But if'n I get some pictures....

[GF.]

My brother-in-law knows the guy but hasn't seen the deer yet....

And if we had a dollar for every time we've heard that one.....:D

Happy Friday. Gonna get out tomorrow and see if I can't get something to come home with me...

[Badger]

GF,

Yes Sir, I do PASS on does because being a PA farmer, I know we have too few deer on this land.

IF you have any PA smarts, then let us discuss the Buck to Doe Ratio. IF this RATIO is a FACTOR, then why not cancel archery deer season FOR ONE YEAR in PA and LET 35,000 Bucks live into the Rut.? The RATIO would readjust immediately, so why continue the alleged imbalance with 6 weeks of archery deer season pre-Rut year after year? In PA we had a year or two of NO bear seasons and then a one-day and a two-day season and now the three-day season so the bears could recover. Why is PGC brain dead for a deer ratio recovery?

IF PA has a buck to doe ratio imbalance, then STOP the archery buck season for one or two years. Big DUH! IT is ALL about the License MONEY and NOT the resource.

Badger

[venado]

Bob Frye is a writer often mentioned here in relation to PA deer. In his front page article of "Pennsylvania Outdoor News" in the December 4, 2009 edition he says in his article. "Antler limits don't equal trophy bucks." It is a good read, especially for Long Range PA Experts who never hunt here. LOL. The results are WHAT us RESIDENTS knew all along. Duh.




If Venado is interested, our RECORD bucks were shot in 1943, 1974 for the second and third in 1930.


I am interested.

Bob Frye is a writer that I have read his work for years and I have generally found him to be a good and careful writer. Now the question that begs to be asked is does a deer have to qualify for Boone & Crockett recognition to be considered a "trophy"? I would doubt that many hunters anywhere would hold the name "trophy" to such high standards since a Booner comes along very rarely in any state. Getting a B&C almost anywhere is akin to hitting the lottery.

Badger I would be curious if Frye stopped his analysis with what you posted here or did he perhaps indicate that there are more bucks that now make it to 2 1/2 years old and older than before ARs were instituted? Are hunters taking more 6 and 8 point bucks than before ARs? Would most PA hunters consider a decent 8 pointer as a "trophy"?

No one but dummies ever thought that a simple point count AR would result in more Booners. Certainly Dr. Alt, Dr. Rosenberry (your good friend as I recall:eek:) and anyone with basic deer antler knowledge ever inferred that it would. The PGC instituted ARs to protect a significant number of the yearlings that were being killed, as I recall ARs have saved about half of the yearlings and allowed them to reach 2 1/2 yo and older, hence more sixs and eights and fewer spikes and forkies.

Badger give us the "rest of the story" as written by Frye. I'd like to see where I am wrong if I am. If I am correct, though I suspect you will not admit it, it will be you, as usual, the one not knowing anything about PA and game management.

[Bob S]

Venado, here is a Bob Frey article for you:

Antler restrictions give hunters a big chance

ARTICLE (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_655288.html)

By Bob Frye, TRIBUNE-REVIEW OUTDOORS EDITOR
Sunday, November 29, 2009

If you are a Pennsylvania deer hunter, you likely dream of taking down Fritz Janowsky or Edward Dodge — whether you know it or not.

Well, good luck. A whole generation-plus has tried, but with no success.

Janowsky, who lived in Wellsburg, N.Y., shot the largest typical white-tailed buck ever taken in Pennsylvania. It scored 189 0/8. Dodge, who was from Knox, killed the biggest non-typical the state has ever seen measured. It scored 238 6/8. Janowsky's deer came from Bradford County, Knox's from Erie.

They have one thing in common, though: both were killed nearly 70 years ago. Janowsky got his trophy in 1943, Knox his in 1942.

An analysis of the record book maintained by the Pennsylvania Game Commission shows neither record has been threatened.

Of the top-ranking nine typical whitetails taken with a firearm after Janowsky's, eight were taken between 1830 and 1957. Only the monster taken by Ivan Parry of Graysville in Greene County in 1974 — which ranks second overall — is of more recent vintage.

The list of the top five non-typicals taken with a firearm includes just one deer — the No. 2 buck taken by Michael Ambrosia in Lawrwence County in 2001 — taken since 1951. The next five highest-ranking non-typicals includes three deer taken since 2000, but, still, Dodge's record has been safe.

A large part of the reason is age, it seems. A variety of factors — including age, nutrition and genetics — determine how large a buck's antlers will grow, said Kip Adams, a wildlife biologist and northern director of education and outreach for the Quality Deer Management Association. Of them, age is by far the most important, though, he said. Whitetails don't grow huge antlers until they reach 5 to 7 years old.

Yet, for most of the last half century at least, Pennsylvania didn't let its bucks live nearly that long.

Prior to the implementation of antler restrictions in 2002, about 90 percent of all bucks killed in Pennsylvania each year were 1 1/2 years old, said Chris Rosenberry, chief deer biologist for the Game Commission.

The results were predictable. An analysis of Boone & Crockett Club records shows that Pennsylvania ranks 31st among all states and Canadian provinces in the number of typical whitetail records it's produced, and 33rd in the number of non-typicals, said Steve Wagner, a spokesman for the organization.

Things have since changed, to a degree. Antler restrictions — despite a common misconception — were never an attempt to produce trophy deer, Rosenberry said.

"The goal was to protect at least half the yearling bucks for harvest, and to make most of the adult bucks legal for harvest," he said.

That's what's happening in most areas of the state, he said. Hunters are still killing a lot of 1 1/2-year-old deer, but they're killing many more 2 1/2-year-olds, too. That's made the average buck bigger, he said.

But a byproduct of antler restrictions has been that a few more bucks are surviving to even older ages, he said. Some research indicates that about one quarter of all state 2 1/2-year-old bucks are surviving at least one more year.

That's significant, according to Adams. While the number of deer living even longer than that is assuredly small, it is noticeably larger nonetheless.

As proof, he points to two analysises done of Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young records. The first, tracking the years 1991 to 2000, found that about half of the state's 67 counties produced 0, 1 or 2 record book-class deer.

The second, which tracked the years 1996 to 2005, found that only two counties still hadn't produced at least one trophy. Twenty-six still had produced only one to three, but 17 had given up four to 10, 14 had given up 11 to 20, six had given up 21 to 50 and two — Allegheny and Chester — had given up 51 or more.

"Hunters have a far better chance of shooting a record-book buck today than ever before," Adams said. "To go from most of the state's counties having produced zero or one record-book buck to where we are now, it's a dramatic difference."

That's not to say record-class bucks are roaming all over the woods. Charles Alsheimer, a nationally-recognized whitetail expert, said in one recent article that — given all of the stress factors that exist — "it is difficult to find 150-inch bucks in the wild. In many places, few, if any, exist."

Such animals are "truly a freak of nature," he added.

But there must be at least some out there. Pennsylvania archers have been finding them, especially locally.

Of the top 10 typical and top 10 non-typical bucks taken by bowmen, 11 have been killed since 2000. Seven of them have come from Allegheny County alone. That includes the top typical, taken in Allegheny County in 2004 by Michael Nicola of Waterford, and the top non-typical, taken in Allegheny County 2007 by Gerald Simkonis of Washington.

But big bucks can come from anywhere, Adams said. And hunters all across the state have a better chance of running into a big buck now than they have for decades.

"We have far more bucks reaching 2 1/2, 3 1/2, even 4 1/2 years old and older now. Because of that, they're able to express more of their antler growth potential," Adams said.

"In most places, hunters may not see the numbers of deer they once did. But they can see more bucks, older bucks and bigger bucks. It's a great situation for our deer and our hunters."

[Altjaeger]

I guess Renegade and Bob Frey make two knowledgable PA residents I have read in this thread.

[Altjaeger]

GF,

Yes Sir, I do PASS on does because being a PA farmer, I know we have too few deer on this land.

IF you have any PA smarts, then let us discuss the Buck to Doe Ratio. IF this RATIO is a FACTOR, then why not cancel archery deer season FOR ONE YEAR in PA and LET 35,000 Bucks live into the Rut.? The RATIO would readjust immediately, so why continue the alleged imbalance with 6 weeks of archery deer season pre-Rut year after year? Badger

No you do not have to few deer. You have too many does. Every scientific survey of PA from aircraft counts to harvest surveys show that. Where hunters want more bucks a farmer wants more heifers, not bull calves.

If closing the archery season will fix it, maybe letting archery and flintlock run while closing modern rifle will be even better. :)

[Altjaeger]

One thing I did note in the Bob Frey article is that the truly huge Penn state bucks came prior to the end of WWII, not the last half of the 20th Century when the state developed such gross and infamous overpopulations. Though not fixed everywhere in the state that is being remedied only today by the current PGC management plan. It seems the majority of PA hunters recognize that.

One need not live there to read the case studies and articles becoming knowledgable of the state, especially if they have a grasp of the basics to begin with. On the other hand one can live amid bounty and starve if they remain willfully ignorant.

[Renegade]

Very true Altjaeger, and I would also add that back in the early part of last century the habitat was much different and was before we had the decades of too many deer which took a toll on it. Growth that followed the timbering in the early part of the century (teens, 20's, & into the 30's) provided great nutrition for growing large antlers. Forest fires were also prevalent.


IF you have any PA smarts, then let us discuss the Buck to Doe Ratio.
I realize you didn't ask me, buuttt I'll discuss them with you. Which ratio is it you want to discuss exactly?

" then why not cancel archery deer season FOR ONE YEAR in PA and LET 35,000 Bucks live into the Rut.?"
Well I'm guessing your not an archer, but for one you'd have a pile of very angry hunters to contend with (roughly one third of the total)? And you say that like they're all taken before the rut happens, like it's some definitive date. Approx. 90% of the breeding takes place in a 60 day period from Oct. 16th to Dec 16th. The archery season starts the first week of Oct., so that first 2 weeks of it has presumably very little mating going on. Now on a reality level, a certain portion of archers don't even go out that first week, namely because of the heat and leaf off hasn't begun yet. I know several hunters just in my circles who wait for the last 2 weeks to do any serious archery hunting because of the increased rut activity.
My point is that those "35,000 bucks" you referred to have already been doing some breeding.

" The RATIO would readjust immediately, so why continue the alleged imbalance with 6 weeks of archery deer season pre-Rut year after year?"
No, those bucks would still most likely be killed, just later in the year, which only serves one purpose.... to save them for you in the rifle season. Your idea seems to bring out your envy for the archers. Pitting one hunter against another hunter just because of his weapon choices is not a road any of us should be paving. Just look at the in-fighting alleged sportsmen's clubs like the usp has done to create division amongst us.
The imbalance in the breeding ratio has already been addressed and there are enough buck remaining to get the job done. The problem with the breeding ecology was that we had mostly yearlings doing the breeding and wasting valuable energy resources getting it done. And because there were so few left to get it done it was stretching out the breeding season, and hence the fawning season in the spring and predation was taking a toll on the fawning season being so spread out. If you tighten it up you overwhelm the predators and don't loose as many fawns.

" In PA we had a year or two of NO bear seasons and then a one-day and a two-day season and now the three-day season so the bears could recover."
I thought we were talking about DEER? Bear breeding ecology is a whole different game and has a population of about 2% of what the deer pop. is.

" Why is PGC brain dead for a deer ratio recovery?"
Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean they don't. There are those much smarter than you out there, like it or not.

"IF PA has a buck to doe ratio imbalance, then STOP the archery buck season for one or two years. Big DUH! IT is ALL about the License MONEY and NOT the resource."
Well seeing as most hunters buy a license to hunt deer, and the PGC is solely funded by hunters license dollars and some PR funds, yeah, money is important. Without it our wildlife agency doesn't function and therefore the resource doesn't get support. You would cut off your nose to spite your face wouldn't you?

[venado]

Well Badger, it appears you, as the titular head of the PABJBS&USP Society, who has not replied is found wanting.


If I am correct, though I suspect you will not admit it, it will be you, as usual, the one not knowing anything about PA and game management.

Based on the replies from others and the article confirmed my quote above, the Texan is right about Frey and PA. (Where is it that you claim to live..?:rolleyes:)