Are you all using plastic tipped bullets now?

[Bushman]

I spent some time perusing the Hornady web site today and see that they have dropped all the lead headed InterLock bullets for my 7mm-08 now. They have the new GSX all copper bullet with the plastic nose and the SST lead core bullet with the plastic nose, but the InterLock is gone! What the heck am I missing out on? I shot a deer a few seasons back with an Accu-Tip which has a white tip instead of a red one and the entrance wound was 2x bigger than the exit wound. It didn't drop any faster or bleed out any better, or even as good as what I'd seen before with plain old Core-Lokts or InterLocks. Looking back at that 180 grain .30 caliber bullet test that Gary Sciuchetti did for the July 1998 issue of Handloader Magazine, one of the best performing bullets on the entire page was the 180 grain Remington Roundnose Core-Lokt. Bullets have evolved a bunch in the last eleven years, but my deer haven't. Am I such an old fossil that I can't see that a 100 yard deer bullet needs to have the aerodynamics of a sharp plastic tip boat tail bullet?

[postoak]

I still can buy lead tipped bullets. :confused:

[GF.]

I think the lead ones will be around for a while....

I have no need of a plastic tip, but if they wanna put one on there I won't mind as long as the bullets don't turn into bombs...

[DaveHawk]

for my inline I like them plastic noise copper jackets. But give me lead for my flint Lock, I haven't shot my 270 outside the range last year so I can't say about that.

[purple heart]

I haven't tried any of the plastic tip bullets----yet.
I have a pretty good stash of interlocks, considering the amount I
get to shoot nowdays.
I'm sure the plastic tip bullets are much better designed now than
when they first came out. Too explosive.
I'd have a hard time convincing myself to try something other than
my tried and true interlocks on deer.:)

[Sidekick]

I shoot nothing but the SST in my high power rifles. Love them. I've killed at least 25 deer with them and haven't experienced the exploding bullet syndrome people are always talking about. Shoot deer where you are supposed to and almost anything will work. They can be a little messy if you hit bone but that's true with just about anything so it's hardly a reason to condemn them.

[Twanger]

I don't typically shoot centerfire cartridge rifles, but do shoot muzzleloaders.

My accuracy results at the range have been markedly poorer with plastic tipped bullets, and I've given them every opportunity to excel, having tried probably ten different weights or brands.

So for now, it's 240gr XTP saboted hollow-points in the Encore, 350gr White Powerstar saboted spitzer hollow-points in the pistol, 385gr Great Plains hollow point conicalss in the Hawkin, and 460gr hollow-point conicals in the 45-cal long-gun.

When the muzzleloader game is played inside 100 yards you can use just about anything for a bullet, as long as it's tight in the bore. Ballistic coefficient is a non-issue.

[Bushman]

From what I'm told, those SST's are nothing more than an InterLock with the plastic tip to keep it from battering and something that opens it a little faster. I was reading in my "Benoit Bucks" book today and Chapter 4 writes about the historic changes the guys have gone through in recent years. Those guys shoot the 200# plus kind of deer that we all aspire to shoot and they have gone to SST Hornady bullets for their scope sighted rifles for longer range shooting. It does say: "For eons the Benoits have always used Remington Core-Lokt round-nose factory ammo in their pump guns, and in their peep-sighted rifles, they still do." That is all I needed to read right there. My deer hunting is at peep sight range, but with a scope sighted rifle.

[rimrock]

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/bullet_detail.aspx?id=103

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-190-gr-BTSP/

IVE never yet found any problem using these two bullets in either my 30/06 or my 300 mag caliber rifles on deer or ELK, and it doesn,t matter if they get used at 10 yards or 400 yards, with proper shot placement the deer/elk just die with total and dependable consistency. yeah discussing all the new bullet designs seems like a good way to waste time, but I generally buy 10-20 boxes of each bullet with my tax rebate check and Im set for the next few years on 30 cal bullets, and yeah, I freely admit that my 30 cal rifles get used mostly on deer, but I have never had the least problem with them on ELK, if the required result was a single shot killing (I still think my .338-.375 caliber rifles are superior on elk, but either class of rifle kills both deer and elk with total consistency, if I place the shot correctly)

[Herne]

I have not the slightest intention of going anywhere near a plastic tip and lead core.

That being said I suspect the "other" manufacturers are trying to find a way round the Barnes patents. Since I seem, this year, to be burning through the last of the Interlocks at some rate (didn't expect that!) I'll go to the TSX. There is no point is reverting to what was plainly a technical blind alley.

I don't practise much, and its 8 years since zero drifted (True - thankyou Tikka/S&B)but if the TSX was too expensive, I'd use something simple for that - any old 150g will do, and use the TSXs for real.

[ncboman]

Some years back I killed a few deer with 'ballistic tips' with both the 06 and 7mag. I got away from em because I like to eat the meat, not blow it to smitherines. :rolleyes:

Plain ol factory winchester powerpoints work for me. :)

[Altjaeger]

I saw my buddy about cut a fawn of the year in half with a ballistic tip from a .358 at its rather modest velocity and lose both front shoulders off a mature doe of about 100 lbs. Considering that was the only two he killed with that load it was enough to achieve my verbotten list forever.

I have seen no reason to change from my factory Core-Lokt ammo in my rifles except the 8x57. Unable to find Core-Lokts for it in the short time before season when I procured it I tried Federal Power Shok ammo. It proved accurate and performed well on the deer I shot with it so I went back and bought 4 more boxes which will likely last me for years.

[Herne]

Well - as they say - stick an expander rod and cap into the front of a bullet, and one really shouldn't be terribly surprised if it expands!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not agin Paul or NCB - just generally. - we've all got the tee shirt one way or another. We all at one stage or another got duped by the accuracy bit, and some peoples tolerance of mince (thats ground meat in US speak) is greater than others, so htey stick with them for a bit.

But, at the end of the day you KNOW its going to explode, because its construction says it will.

Only the advertisers refuse to beleive that, or make a virtue out of BS, by calling it a long range bullet - as if any other boattail wasn't, or even a standard type of bullet wasn't as good out to sensible deer ranges.

Or tried to sell them as an answer to magazine battering in heavy recoiling magnums. And then promptly changed their tune and started recomending lower velocities, which was as blatant an effort to protect the investment as its possible to get.

And yet people bought it, hook line and sinker.

[Sidekick]

As I posted earlier I've been using the SST in my .270 Winchester for the last 5 years with great results. They DON'T "explode". They just kill deer and don't waste much meat unless you hit them somewhere you shouldn't have. A bunch of internet hot air as far I'm concerned. Maybe it was true at one time but it doesn't seem to be now. As least that's my experience.

[Bushman]

For a lot of years I thought that my deer deserved to be shot with premium Partition, TBBC, Silvertip, Accubond and TSX bullets. In truth they ran farther and bled less on the trail than when I used Core-Lokts and Interlocks. Deer, even big deer, are not big game and I've come to the conclusion that I was just putting a lot more energy into the woods behind the deer than was necessary. I guess those standard kinds of cup and core bullets are just boring. I'm thinking that there must be a higher profit margin in those wiz bang, high end monolithic and plastic insert bullets and maybe the bullet makers are willing to concede the plain lead head ammunition market to the Core-Lokt and Power-Point offerings.

Rimrock those are some heavy for .30 caliber bullets, but like my son with his .300 Wby, unless he uses a hard bullet like the 180 grain TBBC, he is going to blood shot a lot of meat. When I used a TBBC from my .308 it wasn't fast enough to expand the bullet much in a deer. That must be the hardest thing to achieve for a bullet maker. How do you get a bullet that will expand and not over penetrate in a .308 on a light frame animal, but then keep it from becoming a grenade out of a .300 Wby? It sure looks like a balancing act between bullet weight, shape, velocity, range and animal size.

Sidekick, the Benoits would not have gone to a 130 grain SST from a .270 and a 165 grain SST from a .30-06 if there wasn't something to them. What weight SST bullet are you using? Hornady is an outstanding manufacturer and they knew full well the problems that the early BT's had been having. Those bullets would be on my short list to try, if I had a mind to try some with plastic tips. If they are just an Interlock with a plastic tip, plain Interlocks have worked well enough for me.

Herne, I'm sure that you are disciplined enough to just shoot perfectly broadside deer as you need to do that to get a salable carcass. I've never had such a nice tidy body shot carcass as what I saw with those TSX's. I still get excited and I've taken some less than perfect shots these last few years, so I am feeling the need to use a faster opening lead head bullet that puts more blood on the ground.

[Herne]

No I don't shoot perfectly broadside deer - as I think I've indicated on all the "where to shoot with pix" posts. In fact, I think probalby I'll shoot a lot steeper and though a lot smaller holes in brush than most on the forum. I reckon that of the 350 degrees, only about 20 - 30 of them don't allow a shot into chest. (Though the vertical band you need to hit gets narrower and narrower of course)

Explode and explode. I'm not interested in the violent and rapid expansion that these SSTs and BT generate, even if they don't break up - exploding being a figure of speech. I'm notshooting commercially any more, but I want my carcasses to to look nice and tidy, even if I have hit bone. Tidy being a matter of opnion. However I've seen lots and lots of deer shot with SSTs and BTs, and they are, no doubt, a very messy, and very nasty bullet especially at closer ranges - all that mash and and underskin briusing etc.

An Interlock with a plastic tip. No they are NOT. They have a tip, and a rod that goes back into the lead. So on impact, instead of a "rollback" from the front, you get an expansion from within the centre. So it make for very different behaviour, and that is a BGO.

I think also that people are confusing sights and sounds as it were with lethality. Once you have hit the heart and reduced blood pressure the animal is clinically dead. The only thing that keeps it on its feet is residual oxygen, and the rate at which it burns it. Neither of which are things that the shooter can do anything about. So, if the animal doesn't do much, it may stay on its feet for a little while. If it takes off fast, it will pburn off that oxygen fast and go down fast.

Trust me Bushman, deer shot with BTs and SSTs run just the same as any other.(i've told the story of Trevs 20 deer week with BTs often enough not have ot repeat it again, and that mirrored my experiences with BTs when I shot something like 100 or so deer with them one winter - if they expand less nowadays, according to some, the older ones should, in erroneous theory, drop deer better)

If you want to be certain of droppping a deer DRT, then don't piss about with secondary effects. Shoot for CNS and be certain of what you are doing would be my suggestion.

[Bushman]

I don't really care if my deer runs a little after the shot, in fact it is what I have experienced as normal. The trouble being that the farther that they run after being hit with an overly hard bullet and maybe marginally, the more difficult recovery becomes. Without snow the difficulty is compounded as most of us are not accomplished at tracking via the bent grass technique like an African bushman. Without a tracking dog, blood on the ground is all most of us have to go by.

To do maximum internal damage it seems that the bullet makers have decided that driving a plastic wedge down into the core opens the bullet up faster. I am looking to do essentially the same thing except I would be using a round nose Core-Lokt with a lot of lead exposed at the tip so that it too opens faster yet has enough weight to assure an exit wound. The bullet guys get the complete penetration by bonding the bullet or making it a wedge opening monolithic. I need my .308 bullet to work in the 2500 to 2600 fps speed range and that round nose 180 grain Core-Lokt seems to do that. It too is a fairly specialized bullet in that they don't offer it in any .30 caliber cartridge larger than a .30-06 or smaller than a .300 Savage; an operating window of only 350 fps muzzle velocity. It is almost deer specific as a lot of other maker's 180 grain bullets (except the Power-Point) are tougher with thicker jackets.

[Sidekick]

According to Hornady's website the SST is an interlock with rapid expansion.

[Bushman]

I had a 210# dressed buck's heart strain through my fingers from a 165 grain Interlock from a .308 at 65 yards broadside leaving a blood trail that a 5 year old could have followed. How much faster does a bullet need to open? That sure didn't happen with my last heart shot buck with the TSX or a heart shot doe the year before with an Accubond. The hearts from those two were almost salvageable except for the quarter size bullet hole through them.

[MOGC]

I have never been unhappy with the accuracy or terminal performance of plain jane cup-n-core lead bullets. Hornady Interlocks, Sierra Game Kings, Speer Hot-Core, Remington Core Lokt, have all worked extremely well for me for many years. On whitetails at the woods ranges I shoot at and from standard velocity cartridges I don’t need specialty boutique bullets. I have shot a fair share of Nosler Partitions and really have no problem with them either. I have played with the Nosler Ballistic Tip and Barnes TSX some but for my narrow uses really can’t justify the cost of something like the TSX. It just doesn’t offer anything I need for my hunting guns, game animals, or conditions.

[Herne]

Define rapid? A BT was only a Solid Base with a tip, but they behave very differently, and should do.

Bushman I think that you are far wiser going for a bullet which rolls back from the front. Rather than puffs up from the middle. one is a progressive expansion, the other a disaster waiting to happen.

I don't agree particularly with your philosophy about trying to open them up faster, because I don't believe it makes much difference, but if it did, I'd far rather a RN than a tipped bullet. I don't think the RN argument really holds - we know perfectly well that all expansion is over and the bullet is decelerating within the shoulder of a very small deer like a muntjac (2-3" max), and from the few spitzer Interlocks I have recovered, and from looking at the internal entry into chest of a pile of them, they have all been fully expanded back to within1/4" of the base. So what benefit is an RN to offer? Ballistically it is marginally inferior, for no practical gain.

Particularly when a shortish run is normal and it doesn't bother you.

If you watch a deer when it is suspicious, you will see its breathing rate go up - you'd expect that on an animal whose work rate is higher than its oxygen take up rate. (Deer red cells are organised to take up an unusually large amount of oxygen, and to release it very quickly - hence the sprint run and stop?). So if one wants short runs, the real trick is not to play with bullets which can do no more than drop blood pressure to zero, leaving the shooter to await the consequences, but to ensure the deer you shoot is totally unsuspecting.

(Easier said than done, but if the oxygen isn't in the deer in the first place, it's not there to be burned off after the shot.)

Or shoot for CNS - which for some reason most people seem loath to do.

[Bushman]

Herne, I wish that I had your ability to test and see bullet performance on multiple animals over a short period of time. It takes me years to see different bullet results that you and Trev can see in a week. On heart lung shot deer I will agree that the results of a pointed bullet and a round nose would be hard to tell apart. It's a 50 yard dash and down for the count.

The deer that I have cleaned do show that the bullet continues to expand as it goes through the thoracic cavity with the entrance into the far chest wall being larger than the exit from the near chest wall. My testing would indicate that too. I know that you don't put much stock into shooting water bottles or Wisconsin phone directories, but that's all I've got to shoot at during the off season. I just went downstairs and retrieved my side by side comparison of a .300 Savage 150 grain pointed Core-Lokt verses a 180 grain round nose Core-Lokt both in the same set of bound together dry phone books.

First book:
150 ptsp exit.....5/16" hole with tearing to 1"
180 rnsp exit.....9/16" hole with tearing to 2 1/4"

Second book:
150 ptsp exit....1/2" hole with tearing to 2"
180 rnsp exit....3/4" hole with tearing to 2 9/16"

Third book:
150 ptsp exit....1/2" hole with tearing to 2 7/8"
180 rncl exit....7/8" hole with tearing to 3"

I'm thinking that 3 books should be through the deer and by the third book the bullet damage does start to look very similar. One of the more surprising things of this particular shoot was that the 150 grain pointed bullet penetrated about half a book FARTHER than the lots of lead exposed heavier 180 grain round nose bullet did.

I've written about that buck that I grazed in MI. one year as he headed off into a green swamp. That was a 180 grain round nose Core-Lokt and while it never broke a bone, it just grazed his left ham and opened a fist size wound that dropped him within 200 yards. That kind of a marginal hit is where the advantage of a faster opening bullet like the round nose that I was using that day would be in my opinion.

[Chuck S]

:mad: Help dress multiple animals over the past few years and have seen far too much meat damaged due to plastic tips. I'm trying one new one the TSX that is tipped but if it blows up significantly I'll drop it too.

[Altjaeger]

I've written about that buck that I grazed in MI. one year as he headed off into a green swamp. That was a 180 grain round nose Core-Lokt and while it never broke a bone, it just grazed his left ham and opened a fist size wound that dropped him within 200 yards. That kind of a marginal hit is where the advantage of a faster opening bullet like the round nose that I was using that day would be in my opinion.

Rather than credit the bullet I would credit the gods who smiled on you that day. :)

[Smitty5]

I guess I'm the odd guy here in that I have had very good luck with the 150 gr. 7MM Ballistic Tips out of my 7x57. I push them to a bit less than 2700 fps and they penetrate all the way thru, leave big blood trails but mostly the deer or hog is down in sight. I got them on a sale very cheaply and have to say I got my money's worth. However I like the old solid base bullets better, not so much destruction, very good accuracy the works. problem is the only solid base bullets I have are the 130gr. .277's, not so bad really. I can push these to 3000fps and still get good performance at shorter ranges.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I can't claim the numbers that Herne can, but I've killed a bunch of deer. I'm going to weigh in by saying this;

I want my bullet to penetrate, expand through soft tissue and muscle equally, and I want it to exit in a straight line from the point of entry. I want it to retain much (50% - 75%), if not most of it's weight and never shed it's jacket. I cannot say that any "tipped" bullet, either plastic, bronze or "silver tip" bullet will do this with any consistency or at all.

The best shot to take, in my opinion, is a broadside heart shot of course, and I strive to wait for that shot if possible. Lungs are fine too but the low heart shot is a killer bar none. If I am looking for a clean carcass I shoot them in the top quarter of the neck. Most any hit is very dramatic and IF they are still alive when I get up there, the coup de gras can be administered easily via whatever means is at hand, usually 22 lr in the brain.

Barring that shot, and since I am under no pressure to kill a deer either for commercial reasons or a short season I seldom take other shots. When I do take other shots, and I sometimes do, I try to get lungs. They are by far the biggest target on a deer and the most vulnerable. A deer can go a long way (I've watched them run 200 yards) on the oxygen in its cells. 200 yards of open bean field is one thing but is quite another through South Texas brush. I've tracked deer on my hands and knees through brush that I have no idea how the deer got through and at the end of it I was leaving a better blood trail than the deer. They do always go down but many times not for a while.

On mature bucks I let them have it right through the Shoulders. I break as much bone, tear up as much tissue and leave as good a blood drain as I can.

As a side, #3 son shot a doe when he was about 10 with one of my 8x57s. The 175 gr Rn Hornady hit her in the foot (like the ankle). She ran about 20 yards and laid down and died. When we got to here she had completely bled out. So I guess the ankle shot is really the best if you want to save meat.

I use Sierra and Hornady bullets except when I'm shooting factory and then it's Core-Lokt. RN or Spitzer is really only a shooter's preference. The deer could care less.

Alan

[GF.]

Herne -

With the copper monolithics, does the aversion to the plastic tip still hold?

My understanding was that they're designed to open in a controlled fashion and to a limited degree, in which case one would (presumably) like to see them reach their maximum expansion quickly and reliably across the fullest range of likely impact velocities, whether from a .308 case at 250 yards or a belted magnum at 1/10th of that.... And without falling apart.

So provided that the design performs to specification, what's not to like - regardless of how the expansion is achieved?

I think I must be missing something, but I don't know enough to know what it is.... :D

[venado]

Alan this
So I guess the ankle shot is really the best if you want to save meat.pretty well sums up this whole issue of bullet selection.:D

[Herne]

I like mines - they keep the force away from the body. :)

Ok Bushman, I'll concede and add a word. "Almost fully expanded". They are certainly fully expanded by the time they are OUT of a munty, and he's only 6" wide on a good day. I think also one has to remember to bring velocity into the equation. Once that bullet is out of the temporary cavity, it has really slowed down a lot, so small differences in mushroom are no longer going to make a lot of difference in terms of ripping up organs.

Ie its which organs you hit which matters and that why I always go high heart, aiming for that cortex of arteries out of the top of the heart, and why I don't support the idea of a 4" target or whatever. Hit that cortex from whatever angle, and blood pressure is down to zero INSTANTLY. Thats not dependent on bullet type of course.

I agree absolutely with Alans requirements - 110%, and his comment about tipped bullets consistenty retaining their jackets.

Matt- I see no purpose in putting a tip on the monoliths. They expand perfectly well, so that bit is a non starter.

Ballisticaly the little hole is tiny, and is not much bigger than the flat on the nose of a plastic tip.

The accuracy point is that you want 2 things
1. You want cosnsitency of mass around the longitudianl axis, which the lead tipped buttlet is not great about, but both tipped and monoliths are.
2. You need consistency of shockwave initiation in air. Since the monoliths don't deform, you have that already, (as you do on a BT/ SST.)

So a tip is an irrelevance. It serves no purpose.

[southtexas]

So a tip is an irrelevance. It serves no purpose.

Herne: I must disagree. The tip indeed has a purpose. It's purpose is to sell bullets. and it does that very well.

[Bushman]

I was just back downstairs putting away my .300 Savage books when I happened to notice how well that 165 grain Interlock from my .308 in another set of books penetrated. I know for a fact that it expands in a deer the way that I want it to. What surprised me is that it punched it's way all the way to the 6th phone book... The exact same distance that a 165 grain TBBC did. Unless I hadn't marked which was which, the "wound" channel looks the same. That TBBC is a deep penetrating, premium bullet too. Both of those went one book farther than the 150 or 180 grain Core-Lokts from the longer barreled .300 Savage which must be running pretty close to a short barreled .308.

Would a .30 caliber 165 grain pointed soft point be more stable than a 180 grain round nose soft point through the brush?

[Bill Gunn]

Would a .30 caliber 165 grain pointed soft point be more stable than a 180 grain round nose soft point through the brush?

I honestly do not think ANYTHING can be used in brush with the thought that it will RELIABLY be able to hit ANY brush, then get through and hit anywhere near the aim point.

This year I shot at a buck, and only grazed about a 3/4" branch about 10 yards from the deer. I thought I had a clear 50 yard shot.
The 270 grain .44 cal Speer Gold Dot veered about 30" off course, and just barley grazed the deer on the back, just in front of the rear legs in that 10 yards. I was quite surprised it went that far off course, being that heavy of a bullet.

As a side note, this morning I shot a really nice big doe (150# +) at 165 yards with the Savage 99 in .308, using the 165gr Federal Fusions. I hit the deer on the right side in the lungs, and it exited the neck on the left side (1/4ing or a little more, away shot). DRT, not a step taken. Small entrance hole, about between 3/4 to 1 1/4 exit. Lungs were quite a mess.

[Herne]

I agrre with Bill - you HAVE to find a hole. they tumble BECAUSE they are spinning.The longer and heavier for calibre the less stable, but its only margins. I know you are a brush hunter and always hope - but I'm afraid you'll hope in vain for a bullet that will relialby keep going after hitting brush. Thats just a fact of life of hunting with a rifle while being subject to Newtons laws.

I think we went through this big time just recently with Sidekick?

ST - yes sorry. Given the way the BT sold as a gimmick, I suppose everyone wanted to climb on the bandwaggon. Silly me and apologies for being so dim.

Actually Nosler did a much better job of it than Hornady, what with the smoothness of the transition etc. Notwithstanding, it still screwed up a very good bullet, the Solid Base, and turned it into junk. Now in the interests of fashion it seems that Hornady wish to do the same with their Interlock.

What interests me is that fashions change. IRRC icame onto this forum about 10-12 years ago, and at that stage I was one of the very few who would slate the BT. Pepaw was another certainly, GF too, and apologies to any others. Anyway, we few jointly ploughed a fairly lonely furrow. For the majority it was the 8th wonder of the world. Now it seems the balance has shifted, I imagine, in the light of bitter experience - enough people have used them and enough have the horror stories to make them suspect in many eyes (for big game).

So I wonder, if this is representative, why Hornady has changed at this stage.

Thank heavens Barnes has come to the rescue.

[Bushman]

Bill, exactly the kind of postmortem side note information that I'm wanting to read. Those Federal Fusions have been on my radar ever since they came out and I've seen them very accurate on the range. They were made bonded, deer specific and reasonably priced. Shooting Times ran a very comprehensive bullet reloading article a few years back on the .308 and it said that the 165 grain bullet weight was a nearly perfect match for that cartridge.

It is a left brain right brain kind of analysis that got me to thinking about a round nose bullet with a straight bullet taper being deflected less than a pointed bullet with a wedge shape bullet taper. Also wouldn't a round nose be shorter for it's weight than a pointed bullet and therefore less likely to deflect? I don't know if the weight being more forward in a round nose is an advantage or not? In actual practice one of the reasons that I went away from that 180 grain round nose WAS bullet brush deflection. That MI. buck that I wrote about earlier wasn't hit until the third shot. I sure wish that I'd have had that shoot again outlook this last deer season. I read the same thing that you guys told me in the Benoit Bucks book. If they are on their feet or down with their head up... Shoot again.

Herne, I don't think that Barnes is immune to the plastic tip hype either. They have a blue plastic tip (Delrin actually which I believe is a trade named Nylon) on their Tipped TSX, trade name TTSX, and a tungsten base shorter bullet with that tip called the MRX.

[Bill Gunn]

Actually the Winchester 150gr Power Points are a little more accurate than the Fusions, but in realistic use, you'd never know the difference out to 250 or more yards.
I shot a buck a few years back with the 150's and they exploded the off shoulder. That deer was close (+/- 40yds), so the Fusions may have done the same thing.
I just like the 165 Fusions better.

[MOGC]

The local gunshop has a box of Hornady Interlock .243 100 gr. round noses sitting all alone on the shelf. They look really odd and out of place, sort of awkward. I’ve tried not to stare at them, but it is hard not to. I really can’t see any advantage to them, especially in that particular caliber. For some reason I’m drawn to them. I occasionally use one of my .243 rifles for deer. Here in the Ozark timber shots are short, less than 100 yards and the deer aren’t unduly large. I’ve used the spitzer flat base version on deer before with good results. Just to be the odd ball I think I’m going to try the round nose bullets for kicks. That should make for an unusual looking .243 loaded round, probably accurate as heck, and should prove very terminal to deer.

I’ve used other round nose bullets before. I have killed deer with the 180 gr. Core-Lokt and Hornday Interlock in the .30-06, 150 gr. Core-Lokt in the .270 Winchester, 175 gr. Core-Lokt in the 7x57mm, and 170 gr. Core-Lokt in the .30-30 WCF. Everything I ever shot died on schedule.

[Sabre]

Matt- I see no purpose in putting a tip on the monoliths. They expand perfectly well, so that bit is a non starter.

Oh but do they expand perfectly well ? Go do a search on 24hourcampfire and you'll find plenty of pictures of Barnes triple shocks recovered from game that didn't expand at all. I've seen too many to trust them myself. Besides, they cost too much and regular soft points have never failed me. I see no point in wasting money on something that "might" work.

[Herne]

I have my doubts about Barnes's recovered from game.

I don't know what they were fired with, or at, but all that retained weight and somehow they didn't exit? To be photgraphed unexpanded when they would have gone on like a torpedo, or should have done the loop de loop of an underspun bullet (in flesh). Judas you'd have noticed that because you'll get a cavity the size of your fist and everyone saying how did it expand like that when it didn't actually expand at all. You'd expect one like that?

If people are going to argue that they behave like a solid, then its a good idea to make them behave like one. Still, I'm sure they have done their homework and have their facts right, but forgive me if I pass. (I'm not sure how many full calibre bullets I've recovered from deer using cup and draw bullets. Less than 10, probably. Its a fractional recovery rate - 1 or 2 in a thousand or something. Just makes me wonder how suddenly we get lots recovered unexpanded, with much higher retained weights and the strong possibility of higher impact velocities?

I have only seen 30 or so deer (more than thirty but it wasn't 40) shot with TSXs, and those TSXs were all 150g 308, propelled at a little over 2900fps. (from a Vargerger)

The cartridge in that gun would shoot to a ragged hole at 100 yards off a bipod.

3 deer IRRC were headshot, and in all three cases the bullet held together and exited in one piece, (or if bits did break off it was not apparent).

The rest were all sound H%L from varying angles, and in every case the bullet exited with a nice neat 1/2" dia exit and the characteristic 4 square hole was apparent in each case. So it had gone in, expanded to twice its diameter or so, and had exited without losing a petal - 100% weight retention.

I can be specific because though it was not me shooting, it was my partner Trev, but both of us were looking at results very carefully.

Granted, its not a huge sample, but on that basis, its good enough for me.

The deer were all fallow - whitetail size.

Clearly, in terms of controlled expansion they were outperfoming the Interlocks I was using, but in terms of lethality there was no difference - but then the placing of both was right, and zero blood pressure is zero blood pressure. Some ran some didn't as you'd expect.

Is it worth changing to them - probably not if you have a stock of the old, but when one runs out then yes IMO.

[Sabre]

I have my doubts about Barnes's recovered from game. I don't know what they were fired with, or at, but all that retained weight and somehow they didn't exit? To be photgraphed unexpanded when they would have gone on like a torpedo, or should have done the loop de loop of an underspun bullet (in flesh). Judas you'd have noticed that because you'll get a cavity the size of your fist and everyone saying how did it expand like that when it didn't actually expand at all. You'd expect one like that?

Most of the ones I've seen pictures of were supposed to have been recovered from heavy game like moose, elk and caribou that had been shot length ways and the bullets recovered from somewhere in the far end of the animal. Some had started to open but very little. Not really even enough to increase original bullet diameter. Some showed partial opening with one or two petals slightly peeled back and the others bent over in the same direction as if they did tumble. I suspect the monolithic bullets would be more usefull to folks who insist on using high velocity cartridges than they would be to me. Remember, my primary deer rifle is still a .30-30 and at 2200 fps my 170 grain cup and core soft points have never shown any tendency toward coming apart.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

A 243 with 100 gr rn Hornady ILs would be an excellent choice for 100 yard whitetails. That coming from an avowed 243 hater is saying a lot.

Alan

[Altjaeger]

As a side, #3 son shot a doe when he was about 10 with one of my 8x57s. The 175 gr Rn Hornady hit her in the foot (like the ankle). She ran about 20 yards and laid down and died. When we got to here she had completely bled out. So I guess the ankle shot is really the best if you want to save meat.

Alan

I am sure the bullet performed well, but I would give credit to the exceptional cartidge he was using! :D

[Bushman]

Hey, that ankle shot works. One of the last years that I bow hunted, I took the hind leg ankle shot on a doe. (Is there any wonder why I quit bow hunting?) Over snow and about 6 miles later I had her all bled out one drop at a time. Very accommodating of her to have gone down right next to a logging road.

[Herne]

This is no criticism of Sabre, but with the greatest of respect to anyone on this forum - anyone who shoots an animal lengthways needs his brains examining, and I'm just not interested in what they have to say on the subject of shooting live gane.

Clearly they are complete f****wits.

As in I have drawn a tag for large deer which aren't that easy to get, stocking densities of large deer are often low, so I have possibly spent a while finding this one and cerainly my chances of finding another in the time available are not colossal, this is possibly one of the shots of a lifetime, so I'll make sure it works by shooting at the most nonlethal spot on a deer.

As for the cup and draws that Sabre mentioned. Yes I agree. I've had huge success with the Interlock, and I wouldn't change unless it was forced upon me. I'm quite happy to go to the TSX (not the ordinary X which had a lot of limitation), cost etc doesn't worry me since I'm not shooting enough nowadays. A box will last a season and thats fine. And i would be quite happy to go on with the Interlocks.

BUT, I am NOT going to fire what is clearly a poor design (and the fast opening BTs and Hornady version -sst - are poor designs and poor performers) when much better behaved bullets are available. I haven't checked site, but Nosler has reintroduced its Solid Base, Speer I think still do theirs, though neither are as good as the Interlock for staying together, or there is the TSX.

Qualify all that by saying that I'm talking about bottleneck velocities. I have little experience of the carbines performance but the lower velocities will make bullets perform differently, to the point that some bullets might well not be suitable.

[Sabre]

This is no criticism of Sabre, but with the greatest of respect to anyone on this forum - anyone who shoots an animal lengthways needs his brains examining, and I'm just not interested in what they have to say on the subject of shooting live gane.

Clearly they are complete f****wits.

Actually I agree with you there. Though I have and will take a head on shot into the brisket, a rear end shot is not one I will personally take.

[Bushman]

Not shooting again this year cost me about a 220 pounder and another mount on the wall when I held my fire as the deer exited the area. What do you do in a case like that? I had a standing broadside, I thought the bullet went true, but I failed to realize that it hadn't and that the bullet just creased the deer over the back when the bullet deflected on a piece of brush. I think that most of us are stand hunters when you can pick your shot. What about a tracker when I guarantee that a lot of the shot angles will be going away. That MI. buck that I wrote about. How was I to know that the first two shots never cut a hair and that the deer was just not on his death run? #3 got him, not well, but the deer came home with me. I'll be shooting again if I can after this as I'd rather lose a portion of a ham or a loin than the whole deer.

[Herne]

Head on into the brisket is fine, and for me part of the degrees around the body that constitutes very lethal.Used it quite often.

But to blast a shot into the back end with all that bone and obstruction between impact and anywhere lethal is just crazy. Doesn't matter what bullet you have - it can go anywhere and do anything. Ethically its out of order and practically its just stupid, because it is only a crippler, and crippling shots very often don't pan out as planned.

Quickest surest way to get a trophy/meat is to have the self discipline to put that first (and only shot) smack into the rib cage. Preferably for me aimed at high heart. Its very certain dead that way, and very certain quick.

Bushman - what would I do? At the risk of being cruel - make effing sure the first round counted. Because that's always the best chance of success. You are getting wound up because you didn't fire a second time, when in fact you had a very good opportunity which you failed to capitalise on. And compounded the error because having shot in effect fro CNS, didn't immediately follow up when there was no reaction. The one thing you can be sure of with a CNS shot is that the WILL be a reaction. Further, its no good getting fraught about second shots, because in heavy cover the chance of a good useful one is very limited - back to the first shot. (I don't mean to be unpleasant at all , but just coldly realistic about what went wrong and what might have been done to prevent it)

I was always prepared to delay a shot to check for clearances (even at my big trophy hartebeeste in Africa, it was several minutes from when the ph said OK and cleared that beast, to the shot. ) BUT, being able to do that with confidence depends to a very large degree on having the drop on the deer. If it doesn't know you are there, it has no great cause to run - allowing for Murphys law. And having good binos, and having high power scopes in heavy cover so you CAN see these obstructions even in very poor light, and having eye height sticks so you can take advantage of very small holes.

To some degree this is where the low mag scope boys leave me cold. On the one hand they are saying low powers for rapid follow up shots, no sticks for speed etc etc. And I don't see it. Get it right, one round and that's it. Game over - there are no follow up shots, and truly, even shooting muntjac which live in the bottom of heavy cover and are always moving, its been years since that first shot didn't go in. I think people are in too much of a hurry to get that first round off, possibly because they cannot gain time by pre-aiming, and don't have the eye to anticipate, so they are not set to shoot unhurriedly, but in a heartbeat when they need to.

Typically you see a deer coming with your binos - you have a pretty fair idea of where its going. You can see it. 9/10 you can anticipate where it will cross you. So you set up to cover that spot - there's no point in trying to get a shot at other spots because they are obstructed (and we are hunting in high summer very often so obstructed means obstructed) So you are lined up on a hole 3" wide and 4-6" high or whatever. Sometimes you have to correct as the deer does something different - it happens, but as that chest crosses that hole - "hey" quietly - and as it checks bang. Just like that. It hardly pauses (doesn't get time to) but you have a nice stationary target - not for long and not big, but you don't need more than a seconds exposure, and you weren't shooting at the rest of the scenery - just that small unobstructed bit. You know its unobstructed because you have had plenty of time to check it out through some serious optics. (8x) And with the sticks, you ARE GOING to hit it, and be rested if you have to wait. (and if you do have to wait, you can wait, IN THE AIM, and you can hold that aim for 20 minutes if need be. - how many here can hold a gun freehand, motionless to get the drop on a deer, in the aim, and still shoot accurately after 20 minutes? None.)

So that's what I do, and I know for certain, that it is absolutely the most effective and very deadly way of hunting in brush. Dog boys work differently, but of all the rifle stalking techniques, that is surely the most effective, without any question.

Wind on your face hopefully - or you HAVE to hit him before he crosses the wind - any old green trousers, camo jacket face mask and gloves of course, but we don't have to go around like Xmas tress decorated in orange, which may make a difference. But you (anyone) do have to be able to get the drop on the deer.

[GF.]

Just curious what yo think of this, though...

The other day I was peering through the brush at 7X and saw good, shootable holes where non had been visible in the (8X) binos, and I realized that I has been focusing in and out with the binos where that's not possible in the scope.

So I dialed the scope to 2X, rechecked, and saw an inch-thick tree branch bisecting the 'shootable' hole - right down the center.

At 2X, I had my choice of either of 2 still-shootable holes; the only difference being that I had to choose one side of that branch or the other.(I guess the saving grace is that the 'invisible' branch was close enough to my stand that had I nicked it, the deer would be left standing in likely the safest place on the entire hillside.... so no blood, no foul - just disappointment....

So how do you work around the brush that can disappear on you at higher magnification? Just a matter of a bit more time in preparation, or is there a crafty old stalker's trick I'd do well to learn?

[Herne]

You do whatever you have to do to get a clear shot.

I look for a hole and then check it out. Not 'tother way round. But you can always focus your binos in zones to get a very good scrutiny of the whole run at 8x or whatever, if you need it. High scope magnification also helps in the gloom which is often prevalent in woods.

However, its never going to be 100% all of the time. Its a question of the balance of advantage, and sometimes, the deer - he win. (Not too often I hope)

[GF.]

That's how I've been occupying myself in the stand each time out, especially since I've been in new spots every day this season, hunting the new property....

It hasn't come up as of yet this year, but it does help with confidence to have inspected a shooting lane several times before an animal steps into it.

Of course, now that centerfire season has closed, I'm back to iron sights on the muzzleloader and fiber optic pins on the bow - not that I'l be doing much bowhunting in the current weather conditions.....

So unless someone were to invent a plastic-tipped roundball, I guess my worries along those lines are over for 2009.

Damndest thing, though... I just got last year's hides back from the tanner, and it appears that I have two exits; there's the entry hole and the expected exit wound (of typical size and shape), and directly in between - which means near the spine - there is a second, almost perfectly round hole of the same size as the entrance.

I don't recall noticing a wound channel in the saddle, so there's a definite WTF factor in there... Do you suppose it's possible that the core separated from the jacket, broke up and spit out two pieces of itself via drastically different pathways?

These are standard, low-cost cup & core bullets - probably Speer Hot-Cores - in 7mm/150. Every deer I've shot with them has reacted by rearing up on hind legs, whether high-heart (fell down dead), grazing the neck (last year's protracted outcome) or lungs too far back/liver/paunch as in the doe with the confusing pattern of holes in the hide....

I believe I'm done with them, though. On the one hand, I guess I needn't worry too much about ricochets or [pass-throughs carrying any appreciable distance, but these just don't seem to be holding together adequately, even though I've yet to hit anything more substantial than a rib... Why anyone would hasten the expansion a standard cup & core bullet is really beyond me.... I mean, apart from the marketing piece....:rolleyes:

[Bushman]

GF, one of the things that just amazed me about one of those deer that I cleaned this year was the small fragment cuts in the far chest wall from one of those 150's that essentially blew up on the near side. I saw that too just from shooting a gallon milk bottle full of colored water with a Light Magnum 139 grain Hornady at 3,000 fps which might be a little over sped for that bullet. The snow pattern behind the bottle looked pock marked with the one main bullet furrow. A Partition did a better singular furrow imo.

An interesting take on using a variable scope or binos to help sort out an obstruction not seen at a higher power magnification. It isn't all about magnification either. It is resolving power. Several years back my main rifle was wearing a Leupold 2.5-8x36 Vari-X III scope. At ten minutes to last legal light a nice buck came out of the thicker stuff and I shot. How could I have missed, but I did. The next day I took out another rifle with a 30mm VM/V 1.5-6x42 Zeiss on it and scoped the same area where that buck had been standing and it was one of these::eek: What was I doing shooting into a maze of crap like that? Good optics matter and Herne with his S&B 8x56 will second that statement.

Much as I'd like to take my Stihl brush cutter back there and make a bunch of shooting lanes, I'm not going to touch it. I'm seeing bucks there every year and I don't want to mess it up. I worked with a guy once who did that to his deer stand and the deer were walking around the back side of it in the thick stuff. He finally realized it and moved his chair back there and got his deer.

[GF.]

I think there's an art to cutting shooting lanes :D

I'll be experimenting with using the hillside so that most of the effort will be going on above their eye-level; unless they spend a lot of time taking in a view of the horizon across the valley or scanning the tree-tops 50-100 yards out, they should never even notice it...

[Herne]

I agree 100% about optics, and it applies to binos too. I know a lot of people say these or those are very bit as good as the Zeiss/Leicas etc, but I've never been able to agree. Side by side test and its like turning the lights on for another 20 minutes into dark.

They just don't have that searing clarity edge to edge of the top end Euro glass - nor the price tag of course. But if it comes ot a choice between 5 rifles and poor glass, and one gun and good glass, the choice is easy. If you cannot see the deer or determine if its legal, or you cannot aim it effectively, the rifle is just so much junk.

As for cutting - take secateurs and cut a few holes.

[Sabre]

Actually, I've had more troubles hitting unseen small branches close in when using high magnification than hitting stuff further out with low magnification. I shot a deer this season at 65 yards, through a very small hole between pencil sized branches at 60 yards. This was with my .30-30 and it's 2.5x Weaver scope, while two seasons ago I hit an unseen branch a few feet in front of the muzzle of my .243, which had it's 2-10x Weaver set at 7x at the time. In that instance, I never realized I had hit a branch till I went to the fallen deer. That's when I discovered the top of its head was missing. The shocking thing about that was I'd been aiming behind the shoulder.:eek: No wonder the thing had dropped like a lead balloon.:rolleyes: Subsequent investigation revealed the small twig that had been clipped. I never noticed it at all when taking the shot. Worked out fine for me in that instance but that sure was one unlucky deer !

[GF.]

Secateurs: hand-held pruning shears....

I had to look it up :D

I won't be able to reach much of what will need cutting if I'm limited to what I can reach with a pair of those, I'm afraid....

But to your point - I'm looking at creating a visual pipeline that I can shoot through, not a right-of-way that I could drive a truck through... The cover isn't so terribly thick that I have to clear out a lane in order to have any chance at a shot, but it would be nice to have one or two lanes to work with just in case...

[Sabre]

Secateurs:I won't be able to reach much of what will need cutting if I'm limited to what I can reach with a pair of those, I'm afraid....

I use a shotgun to trim those out of reach branches from my stand sites. Just go in the off season with the full choked 12 gauge and a pocket full of pheasant loads. Will take off branches up to 1 1/2 - 2" in diameter with one shot apiece up to 25 feet or so.

[Sidekick]

It's funny that you say that but only because I've done the same thing.

[GF.]

My scattergun is a 20 ga. skeet & skeet, but I've used that method myself a time or two :D

For stubborn limbs, I've been known to grab the #2 buck:eek:

Honestly, I used to be good enough to manage just fine with my .22, which is a bit lower impact. But if I were smarter about it, I'd borrow a neighbor's pole pruner; my climbing sticks are 20-footers, so I won't have much call to trim anything higher than that... Don't want to be shooting up-hill that close to the ridge top...

[Herne]

Well thats certainly a positive approach to brush clearance. :)

We always took pole pruners (secateurs on a long pole with a string to actuate?) in the off season - each place got a pre season maintenance visit to check seats and make sure it was operational.

[Fuzzball3]

" Are you all using plastic tipped bullets now?"

All? No.

[Phil T]

Plastic tips? It depends on the rifle. My 30-06 shoots 150gr Hornady Spire Points well, but 165gr SST's even better.
My 300 Savage much prefers 150 Spire Points to 150 SST's.