Short Action Rifles

[AK-49]

Now that I've handled a few rifles chambered for 270 WSM and the like the longer action rifles seem rather clumsy to handle. Who likes short action rifles?

[30-338]

I wish they build WSM on a longer action.

[pepaw]

I prefer the short actions when hunting.
Just another reason to cheer on the .260.:D

pepaw

[Twanger]

I love my Encore .308
I could shoot that gun all day, even with Hornady light-mag loads.

[LampLighter]

I love my Encore .308
I could shoot that gun all day, even with Hornady light-mag loads.
__________________




That is a good caliber to train new bowhunters how to blood trail.

[Altjaeger]

That is a good caliber to train new bowhunters how to blood trail.

Yep, if you can't shoot straight or use the wrong bullet!!! Otherwise it will kill even moose and elk handily. :)

[Sabre]

Yep, if you can't shoot straight or use the wrong bullet!!! Otherwise it will kill even moose and elk handily. :)

I sure hope so cuz the only reason I've held onto my .308 for all these years is the prospect of a "someday" elk hunt. I have little use for it otherwise as it's just "too much gun" for deer IMHO.;)

[LampLighter]

otherwise as it's just "too much gun" for deer IMHO.



Deer shot with it act just like Michael Platt did on April 11, 1986 Miami Fla. when Special Agent Jerry Dove placed a 9mm Silvertip through Platt's engine room. The Dade county medical examiner later stated that it was a non-survivable hit. However, for 1.5 min. after taking that hit, Platt fought on and killed Agents Dove and Grogan.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Same with the deer. They WILL die, they just don't know it at the time. You have to go look for them. Far better to use more velocity, like a 270 130g or a 25.06 where they boom/flop on the spot. I have shot more than 13 deer with a 308 engine room hits and unless you like to go look for them, use something else. They are not usually too far, say within 70 yards, but why? Why ? It is so easy to choose something better from the get-go and watch them boom/flop.

[Altjaeger]

Yep but that rule only applies in eastern Louisianna and to certain people. Otherwise the .308 with conventional 150 grain to 180 grain bullets works just fine for virtually the entire country and general population of users I personally have seen or been on site shortly when it drop 4 feral hogs, a roe buck and about half a dozen whitetail deer. Except for one they dropped from 0-about 10 yards. That one feral hog made about 35-40 yards. In every case a 150 grain Core-lokt was used.





Sometimes a wise man knows when to let sleeping dogs lie. Next best is when men know when to let them go back to sleep. :)

[LampLighter]

Well, in future hunts feel free to use it. Makes no difference to me. I won't use it. I would use a spear before I used the .308. Each will use what he/she likes.

[TinStar]

Hmm. Never shot a dear with a .308. But I've killed them with 20 and 12 ga. sabots from 25 to 125 yds. And sometimes they dropped right there and sometimes went from a few short feet to several yards.
Before you go trashing a particular caliber Lamp, you had better look at others results also. To say a spear is better than a 308 will likey get folks to "snicker" at you to say the least.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

[LampLighter]

That is what is wrong Tin. Far too often individuals look right, look left, ( sounds like a firing line :D) and let what they see make their decisions in life. That is sheepleism, or characteristic of "wanting to belong." Far better it is for each individual to use his/her own smarts based on his/her own experience, irregardless of what others are doing. This is more characteristic of leadership, being able to make decisions .

I believe it was General Meade who had to take a concencious among his men to decide whether to face Pickett or run. Meade should have been knocked down to private on the spot.

You cannot let "what is popular" make your decisions, especially in today's world. You will not get ahead. You must make command decisions. I have extensive experience in watching deer shot with a .308 cal, and I would prefer to throw a spear at them . They die, but you have to go round them up. In today's free choice of what rifle to use, there are so, so, so, so many Other rifle calibers that would drop that deer boom/flop. It's like going out in modern firearms season for deer with a Brown Bess flintlock.

[Twanger]

I have extensive experience in watching deer shot with a .308 cal, ... It's like going out in modern firearms season for deer with a Brown Bess flintlock.

A flintlock?

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

That's some funny chit right there.

The sanity of these posts speak for themselves.

How's it going Rick? I thought you said you were out of here, and never coming back. :D

A flintlock... Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Hee, hee. Sniff. :D
Priceless stuff. Please keep it coming. It just gets better and better. :eek:

[LampLighter]

:D You like that huh ?

[purple heart]

I've always said I'm a 270 man, which is a long action, but I do have a
Browning Micro Medallion in 308 that is a sweet little short action.:)

[Altjaeger]

Why do I keep recalling "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" by James Thurber? It was a short story we read in grade school also made into a movie starring Danny Kaye.

[dave-t.]

I've always preferred long actions and long actions cartridges, for no real reason at all.

I did have a .260 rem in a rem m700 for a short time. Got rid of it asap, couldn't find a factory load it liked, and I'm not real fond of the m700 to begin with.

[Sabre]

Actually, I did shoot a few deer years ago with the .308. It killed them alright but not one bit "deader" than my old .30-30 so I quit using it. Can't see putting up with more recoil and noise than is neccesary to get the job done.

[LampLighter]

Why do I keep recalling "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" by James Thurber? It was a short story we read in grade school also made into a movie starring Danny Kaye.



I have never heard of that.

[Altjaeger]

Actually, I did shoot a few deer years ago with the .308. It killed them alright but not one bit "deader" than my old .30-30 so I quit using it. Can't see putting up with more recoil and noise than is neccesary to get the job done.

I see no difference in deer reactions to my .30-30, 308, .30-06, 7x57, 8x57, or .250-3000 if hit in the same places. Chest shots they may drop or they may run a short distance. If the Central Nervous System (CNS)is hit they will drop right there. The CNS shots are the only ones to reliably drop a animal. Miss the CNS and chest and you are likely to have a trailing job. The cartridge is likely the least important factor in the equation as long as it penetrates and expands properly.

[Altjaeger]

I've always preferred long actions and long actions cartridges, for no real reason at all.

I won't say I prefer the long action, but I find little advantage to the short action. Some men like their women tall and slender and others short and plump. :) In the end the individual is the only one thats needs satisfied.

I have had two .308s. One was a Savage 110 bought at a garage sale for a bargain price. I killed a roe buck tht dropped in the grass so fast I wondered what happened to him. Later my son killed his first deer with it and it became his. He has gone on to kill 3 hogs and half a dozen deer with it.

The other was a Winchester M88 Lever which is a short action only rifle. My wife has killed 2 hogs and 2 deer with it. Tracking has never been an issue.

[LampLighter]

I see no difference in reaction between my .30-30, 308, .30-06, 7x57, 8x57, or .250-3000 if hit in the same places. Chest shots they may drop or they may run a short distance. If the Central Nervous System (CNS)is hit they will drop right there. The CNS shots are the only ones to reliably drop a animal. Miss the CNS and chest and you are likely to have a trailing job. The cartridge is likely the least important factor in the equation as long as it penetrates and expands properly.



Actually, that 250 Savage is bad to the bone. They don't run from it.

As to the wound ballistics, my knowledge on wound ballistics makes Dr. Fackler look like a freshman undergraduate. ;) We ( humans) are no different than deer, except that deer will strive to get away and go hide until the motor shuts down from trauma. People, many would just freak out and lay down to die. With that in mind, again take off on a search of wound ballistics. Much of it begins with the 1986 Miami shootout I linked. I have studied this for many, many, many years, AND have personally seen the difference night and day on deer- events which cooberate what I studied. All those 1980 days I followed blood to find my deer, then when one left gallons of blood and still made it 200 yards into a swamp, which a trained Walker hound couldn't find, I sold the junk Heckler & Koch. The first deer I shot with the new 25.06 my jaw dropped in astonishment at what I saw. I had to look at the rifle 3 times. That deer jumped into the air, folded , and crash landed never to move or kick a leg. The next 4 did too. Total night and day difference. And I know why. My wound ballistic studies explain it. But I charge for teaching you this info. If you are interested, pm me and I'll send you some rates. We'll have to school on direct E Mail to comply with forum rules.

[Altjaeger]

Actually, the two deer that I shot with the .250-3000 both ran a bit. The doe about 5 yards (two bounces) and buck made about 90 yards with a low heart hit. That would be the worst of all I listed except maybe the .30-30. With it I have one kill.

The .308, .30-06, 7x57, and 8x57 lays them down more than half the time right were they are.

[LampLighter]

:D We forgot to warn the viewers of this thread that boots and shovel were required :D


Yeah well, I don't know any more. Why does my slow 44 mag rifle work so well ? I seem to be getting into handguns again. I elected to keep my 44 mag Blackhawk. Gonna order a Bianci holster and belt I always wanted.


That Savage 99 rotary action I think was the perfect action . The 250 fit it perfectly too, and is/was a good woods round. I always wanted a 99 with the rotary action.

[StringJumper]

When considering a new gun and caliber, the action length never even enters my mind. It's so low on the list of preferred attributes that it's not even on the list.

For me, the long vs short action argument is a complete non-starter.

[Bill Gunn]

When considering a new gun and caliber, the action length never even enters my mind. It's so low on the list of preferred attributes that it's not even on the list.

For me, the long vs short action argument is a complete non-starter.


What your saying is that your not a "Slave To Fashion" :o

I'm 100% the same, all these "NEW" calibers are fine if your looking just to spend some money. If you eat a smaller breakfast each day, you'll save more weight in your ass than the shorter action will save.

[Herne]

I'm afraid action length makes no difference to me. I was given a 270 which worked well, bought another (Sauer 200), sold that as being unreliable, and then bought a Tikka. As a lighter calibre I was recomended a 257R (without knowing what the action length was, or even caring. Ultimately, because it was a little short on penetration with soft bullets on these longish open stubble shots on fallow at 300 plus yards (sierras - mistake), I chopped it in against a 6.5x55.

Yes there is a small gain in weight, but basically, you lift the bolt handle, you pull it back til it stops, you push it forwards till it stops and the round goes home. 1/2" or whatever don't make too much difference - this isn't a whorehouse sort of game is it?

As for wound ballistics I fear I support the "might drop, might not, no difference school". I've shot for high heart for a long time, and some run and some don't. I've seen clients shoot for chest with all manner of calibres from 243 upwards (less than 243 being illegal in the UK) to 375H&H and 300WBY mag. Some ran , some didn't.

So, some people may have had wonders with their x or y calibre, but I'm sure that, along with others, the best we can collectively promise is this - you have been lucky. Shoot a few more genuinely H&L and some will run and the myth will die. That is a certainty - any calibre. DRT is not - any calibre.

So enjoy it while it lasts.

[Herne]

I ought perhaps mention in all this 308 nonsense my good friend and hunting partner for many years, Trevor Humphrey. (a great gentleman and as fine a friend as anyone ever had) He hunted with me day in day out in East Anglia and Hertfordshire and Northampton. Mostly muntjac and fallow. Of those species he's probably shot more than me, because organising the setup, sometimes I was out of the line. He didn't hunt roe so much because in between going abroad he'd go home. Even so, his total has to be in the thousands.

Now to be fair, he is the kind of person who, escorting a client and hence without his own gun on that day, came across an injured fallow doe (the white one in the video for those who have it) that animal was genuinely well over 300 yards, and nearer 4 so said the client who was unwilling to take a shot. So Trev took a strange gun (one of those funny stainless 270 Rugers with the semi-skeletal butt and the evil trigger) and without knowing the zero that well - one shot. So he's adequate at the least with a rifle.

But of his total, he shot probably 20 with a 300 Win Mag (it got a weeks outing and then became a cupboard queen). Half a dozen with a 240 Wby Mag. Two or 3 with a 6mm PPC. and the rest with a 308. I doubt that he fired in all those years more than, what, 15-20 second shots. Thats a couple of extra rounds a year.

So the 308 must have something going for it.

Not as much as a 270 of course, but something.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Herne/PICT0106c.jpg

This is the pair of us - TH on the left - with our two springbok. Oh god they were long, and with a very brisk breeze. Still after some hours trying to get closer, it was obvious that long it was going to have to be. 300 WM Varberger, 150 g Partiton, Zeiss binos and Swarovski 4-12x56 as I recall. The other, a rather plainer Tikka 270 with the standard 150 Hornady, and an S&B 8x56 on top. The binos are Leica 8x50BNs.

I mention the 270 in this context because there are some who seem to think that has difficulty killing animals - but I can assure them that, in the right place, it too is pretty fearsome round :)

[Bill Gunn]

Now If we could just get you guys to try a .308 in Lever Action then you would see what all the fun is about :p :p :D

Savage 99EG in .308

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/41293622.jpg

100 yard target...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/41293448.jpg

[AK-49]

short action rifles means a stiffer action with a shorter bolt stroke, less weight and less overall length in the rifle means easier to carry and handle and often times more efficient powder burn.

[Herne]

Theoretically yes, and possibly in benchrest it might make a difference (no experience and very little interest). But in practical terms in a hunting rifle?

So in my 270 or 6.5 or whatever, I use an extra couple of pounds of powder or whatever to kill five hundred deer. I think that's a tragedy I can probably live with. I could still wring something like a half inch group or slightly less out of the two Tikkas, - or the guns would even if I didn't - despite their "flexibility" in the action.

The weight - what are we talking of like for like - for a Tikka M595 against a long action M695, the difference is 100g or a bit under 4oz? This is going to make a real difference, especially when that is between the hands?

Shorter bolt stroke - you'd get a lot of the same effect by going to a 60 degree bolt. However, regularly we were shooting multiple deer in an "engagement" on the culls. You know, shoot the lead doe, and immediately take the second. (You are not watching the first deer down) Your next round is fed and chambered before you have recovered from recoil. And you still have to acquire the second target before starting to aim again - and that from someone who specifically holds the fore-end down to control flip, which most of you gents don't. So bolt stroke is not a factor that we need pay any attention to. (but reliability of ejection and feed most certainly is). We are after all, not machine gunners where bolt stroke against rate of fire is important, and lower powder charges reduce barrel wear and heating.

To me, its mostly gunmakers BS.

[M99ER]

We forgot to warn the viewers of this thread that boots and shovel were required


Yeah well, I don't know any more. Why does my slow 44 mag rifle work so well ? I seem to be getting into handguns again. I elected to keep my 44 mag Blackhawk. Gonna order a Bianci holster and belt I always wanted.


That Savage 99 rotary action I think was the perfect action . The 250 fit it perfectly too, and is/was a good woods round. I always wanted a 99 with the rotary action.

I got waders. Don't you worry.. 2 of 4 or six I'm familiar with are 308. Can't seem to tag out with any other than the 308's. Is it the rifle's caliber fault or mine! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Altjaeger]

Now If we could just get you guys to try a .308 in Lever Action then you would see what all the fun is about :p :p :D

Savage 99EG in .308

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/41293622.jpg

100 yard target...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/41293448.jpg

I am sure it is ALMOST as much fun as my sons M99 in .250-3000.:)

But as long as I am wishing give me a pre-War M99 in .300 Savage.

[Smokey]

I never did see much of a difference in the size of the actions when I'm hunting.

I do love those Savage 99's though.

[Greg Rodriguez]

Deer shot with it act just like Michael Platt did on April 11, 1986 Miami Fla. when Special Agent Jerry Dove placed a 9mm Silvertip through Platt's engine room. The Dade county medical examiner later stated that it was a non-survivable hit. However, for 1.5 min. after taking that hit, Platt fought on and killed Agents Dove and Grogan.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Same with the deer. They WILL die, they just don't know it at the time. You have to go look for them. Far better to use more velocity, like a 270 130g or a 25.06 where they boom/flop on the spot. I have shot more than 13 deer with a 308 engine room hits and unless you like to go look for them, use something else. They are not usually too far, say within 70 yards, but why? Why ? It is so easy to choose something better from the get-go and watch them boom/flop.

Lamplighter,

I have killed several HUNDRED animals with various .308s both as a trophy hunter and culling. My targets have included everything from hogs and whitetails in Texas to bears in Canada to impala, kudu, and even eland in Africa. I almost always use a .308 on kudu when I'm testing new bullets for manufacturers. The .308 kills 'em just as well as anything else. Use the right bullet and shoot them properly and they die. No gun/cartridge combination can guarantee bam-flops without a CNS hit.

[RMP]

In years past I've used a 260, a 270 and a 30-06 for deer hunting, mostly in the woods where the shots were no longer than 75 yards or so.

But recently I purchased a Weatherby SUB-MOA in 308 Win because I'll be taking longer shots at deer in the future and I'm looking for accuracy. This rifle shoots straight and it's such a pleasure to use a product that lives up to its claims.

These are the first 100 and 200 yard groups using inexpensive Federal ammo. After reading some of the previous posts about how ineffective the 308 is on deer it looks like I'll have to shoot them between the eyes with Barnes TSX bullets to get the job done......:D

[southtexas]

Yeah, If those bullets are coming out of a barrel containing a case that says "308" on the headstamp, they'll bounce off a deer. Now if the same bullet were traveling at the same velocity, but had been launched from a case with an headstamp that said 30/06, it would be a real killer.

Bullet's not important, headstamp is.:rolleyes:

[Herne]

This is a new logic which I entirely agree with. Sort of Einsteinian on your part, and you are to be congratulated.

Like quantum mechanics, it explains everything clearly and simply.

[RMP]

Yeah, If those bullets are coming out of a barrel containing a case that says "308" on the headstamp, they'll bounce off a deer. Now if the same bullet were traveling at the same velocity, but had been launched from a case with an headstamp that said 30/06, it would be a real killer.

Bullet's not important, headstamp is.:rolleyes:

Ha ha....well said.....and of course I was joking about shooting deer between the eyes.

I am going to try the TSX bullets (in Federal ammo) though, and hope they are as accurate as the Power Shoks that I've shot recently.

[southtexas]

RMP: Looks like you got yourself a winner, there. Let us know how the TSX's shoot!

[dave-t.]

I'd be buying a case of that cheap Federal ammo regardless of what the tsx does.;)

[Herne]

ST - the TSX can be a very accurate bullet, but it still has to be matched to the Fn of the barrel just like any other cartridge. I think people forget that Fn is directly related to stiffness, and stiffness for a tube is proportional to pi /32(D^4 -d^4).(the second polar moment of area)

Since the whole shebang is controlled by that fourth power inside the brackets, you can see that tiny changes in OD, or differences in taper, or ID have huge effects on stiffness.

That's actually why 2 apparently identical barrels can react so differently to the same batch of ammunition. So if I might suggest it, I wouldn't worry too much how well Federal/TSXs shoot out of his barrel - try them in yours

[southtexas]

Herne:

I wuz just bein' polite...and and curious, of course.

Really don't have any interest in TSX's for myself. I plan on continuing to put lead into the environment...just to be ornery:)

[RMP]

Southtexas,

Thanks...

I want to try the TSX bullets in case I go after something bigger than deer in the future.

[RMP]

I'd be buying a case of that cheap Federal ammo regardless of what the tsx does.;)

Dave,

Yes...I've already stocked up. The reason I used it in the first place is because that's the ammo Weatherby used when they were testing the accuracy of the rifle at the factory. As far as how well this bullet performs on deer sized game I have no personal experience, but from what I've researched online it's adequate.


Happily as it turns out this rifle it is every bit as accurate as I hoped it would be. The scope helps too, of course. I mounted a Sightron Big Sky 3-12x42 AO on it and also installed a Timney trigger because the original trigger was a bit gritty.

[Herne]

ST - we rather agree. The TSX is very good, but then so is the right ordinary bullet. Were I taking the 270 back to Africa, then I'd change, or if I ever run out of the Hornady.

However, for deer sized game matched to the calibre and impact velocity, I don't see any immediate need. I doubt I'd gain much in either accuracy or reliability. But as I said, if the circumstances came up to make a change worthwhile, then I certainly would. ( And of anyone, I'm probably more wedded to a particular load than anyone else on the forum - except perhaps the headstampers).

So change for changes sake - no, but an open mind, yes.

[southtexas]

"the headstampers" :D:D

[StringJumper]

RMP,

It's a pity about that flier in your 200 yard group. But keep your chin up and keep practicing and you will get better over time. ;)

I have a gun that has shot groups like that at 200 yards, but either the gun or myself (more likely) cannot do it consistently.

It's a funny thing about bullets...I have two 270 bolt actions that shoot Hornardy Interlocks with a load of 3031 very well...consistently sub-MOA, even with me shooting. :eek: However if you cap that load with a Partition or Interbond instead of the Interlock then the group size nearly doubles.

[RMP]

RMP,

It's a pity about that flier in your 200 yard group. But keep your chin up and keep practicing and you will get better over time. ;)

I have a gun that has shot groups like that at 200 yards, but either the gun or myself (more likely) cannot do it consistently.

It's a funny thing about bullets...I have two 270 bolt actions that shoot Hornardy Interlocks with a load of 3031 very well...consistently sub-MOA, even with me shooting. :eek: However if you cap that load with a Partition or Interbond instead of the Interlock then the group size nearly doubles.

John,

I certainly understand about the bullets as for years I tried to make a finicky 260 shoot tiny groups but to no avail. However with the right bullet and load it will shoot about an inch and a quarter or so at 100 yards fairly consistently. It's a handy dandy woods gun (20 inch barrel and lightweight) but by no means a tack driver.

I got a chuckle out of your mentioning the "flyer" in the 200 yard group...

Funny thing about human nature.....when I first walked up to that target I thought holy smokes.....this rifle shoots......then I thought......wonder what went wrong with that "flyer?"

There's no limit to how greedy we can get, I suppose.....:D

[Herne]

John - all you'll need to do is adjust the seating depth a bit, if you really want to shoot the different bullets.

[bugsNbows]

I just picked up an X-Bolt in 300 WSM and, so far, I love it.

[Pat Hurley]

I have many long action rifles that I shoot extensively and have for years. The only short action I shot was a .308 in BLR. Since the WSM's came out I have played with two .270's, a .243 WSSM and a 25 WSSM. I find them fun and very efficient in many ways. The .270 WSM in my opinion is awesome and has a great future, for bean fields in the East and many uses in the West. I am really enjoying them on my annual Elk and Mule Deer hunts to Colorado. I use the bigger stuff for Elk, but wouldn't hesitate using it on a Cow if I have a tag. Good shooting.

[howdydoit]

there are so many new cartidges now adays, that everyone sometimes for gets the tried and true old faithfulls.

the 308/30-06 and there ilk have been killing deer and more for ever. Oh and dont forget about the weak azzed 30/30.

Too many choices ill stick to the old faithfull cuz no matter the action length I know they will get the job done and not cost me an arm and a leg to shoot.

Howdy

[Greybeard]

The deer and elk up here have learned about my rifle, a Mark-V in .340 Weatherby Mag. When I see them and they see me with that rifle, they simply flip themselves up into the air landing on their backs dead and ready to gut. I don't even have to pull the trigger anymore. That has become boring. You cannot do that with any short action rifle that I know. Er, maybe except the .375's? Greybeard/