.357 mag. carbine [Archive] - HuntAmerica.com Talk Forums

dave-t.

04-28-2009, 09:21 AM

I used one one season, and have an uncle that hunts with one full time. 158grn hollowpoints were used. I wouldn't want to shoot over 80-100yds max, but used within its limits, it will work.

One year my uncle shot a doe in the hind quarter and hit the femoral artery. That doe blead out on a run inside 20yds.

It was a terrible shot with a minimum type cartridge, but the blood trail was over 2' wide and was impressive to see at the time.

Bill Gunn

04-28-2009, 12:31 PM

I have a Winchester "Trapper" model that shoots 170 gr. flat point Gold Dots into 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 - 3 shot groups @ 100yds.
The load I use is 17 gr LiL'Gun (May be hot in your gun, shoots fine in mine) and they chronograph at 1825 15' in front of muzzle.
I don't shoot these loads in my 2 S&W pistols (66 & 27) though I have seen 160 grain loads using 18 grains of LiL'Gun in pistols.
I haven't seen a deer with it in my hands yet, but I'm sure it will be fine to 150 yards at least.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/64211583.jpg

TinStar

04-29-2009, 02:22 AM

Nice gun Bill! Thanks for the info. I've heard that a .357 mag. out of a 18-20" with 170-180 grainers is almost on par with the 30/30 at 100 yds. Sure would be cheap and easy to shoot all day!

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

Smokey

06-04-2009, 12:44 AM

I've shot two whitetail with a .357 Ruger Blackhawk and the fartherest one went was about 20 yards. Both were very close, maybe 25 yards if that far.

I am not sure you will have a lot of power with this caliber at 150 yards. A 165gr CL has 450 ft/lbs at 100 yards. I have the same rifle as you but have not had the time to even fire it.

Bill Gunn

06-04-2009, 04:52 PM

Here's a drop table for that load I shoot.
It still has 680fp @ 150 yards, and is still going 1343 fps.
Quite a bit more power than my .357mag pistol loads...

You ought to shoot that thing, you'll love it !!

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/366210741.jpg

GF.

06-04-2009, 05:05 PM

Even that load wouldn't pass the minimum FPE requirement in CO (or MN, either, IIRC) as at least Colorado requires a minimum 1,000 ft-lbs of KE at 100 yards. For a long time, I thought this was kind of a national standard, but strictly speaking, in CT a carbine in .25 Auto would probably meet the specific requirements.....:rolleyes:

I'm not saying it's not a perfectly reasonable-sounding deer load for all but 1 or 2 of all the shots I've taken in my entire hunting career, but state-by-state regs do vary.

Personally, if I were looking at a rifle in a pistol chambering, I'd go the .44SPCL/.44Mag route, seeing as that rig will get no honest disrespect from anybody. It obviously wouldn't be as cheap or easy a plinker as a .38 Spcl, but maybe that's what .22s are for after all ;)

Bill Gunn

06-05-2009, 12:07 AM

TinStar,

Here's a couple articles that give some .357 rifle info...

http://www.gunblast.com/Winchester-Ranger357.htm

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0110.gif http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animals/animal0024.gif

Bill Gunn

06-05-2009, 05:21 AM

Even that load wouldn't pass the minimum FPE requirement in CO (or MN, either, IIRC) as at least Colorado requires a minimum 1,000 ft-lbs of KE at 100 yards.

GF,
I agree with you for out west.
I've hunted Colorado, Wyoming, and South Dakota. Personally I would consider the .308, or a Winchester .270 as the min. caliber.
Here it's rather unusual to get a 100 yard shot (But you can always hope :) ).

GF.

06-05-2009, 09:29 AM

Well, there's the practical minimum and then there's the legal minimum....

A .30-30, a relatively hot-loaded .44Mag, and a .243 all make the cut (though CO requires a 100-grain bullet for Elk in that .243), but of the three, the one that looks worst on paper might actually be the best choice, practically speakin'. Stoked with 170-grainers, a .30-30 will get done a whole lot of what needs doin'... Though if you were to feed the .44 some Cor-Bon or BuffaloBore ammo, you'd probably offset a good chunk of the .30-30's normal advantage in trajectory... If you didn't mind the recoil, of course....

With the hotter loads out there, I'm sure a .357 is a perfectly adequate whitetail stomper, especially for someone who's used to hunting at smoothbore or bowhunting ranges, but I wouldn't choose to hunt with anything that light unless I had a really compelling reason to do so... noise level, maybe... but at that rate, a Marlin CB version in .38-55 would tickle me more...

TinStar

06-06-2009, 06:02 AM

Bill Gunn,

Thanks for the links! I think my next rifle will be be the Marlin .357 for many different reasons as those links provided. I've killed a number of whitetails DRT with a .50 round-patched ball and I'm sure the .357 will do the trick.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

Smokey

06-08-2009, 02:05 PM

Thanks for the links Bill. I told my wife we had a need to buy that rifle, now I know the need, it is a good deer rifle for her.

Bill Gunn

06-08-2009, 03:44 PM

Marlin CB version in .38-55 would tickle me more...

I hear you there. I'd like one of those too. I seen one converted to .444...
I had tears in my eyes I wanted one so bad. I did hear they are heavy to carry all day though.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/zoom_1894_45colt.jpg

I found a picture of that converted one....

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/366552767.jpg

Smokey,
Buying it for the wife :).... I bet you fall in love with it too ;)
They are a lot of fun to shoot.

tommyt

06-09-2009, 07:48 AM

I would think 150 yrds out would be Pushing the Failure Button to its MAX

GF.

06-09-2009, 10:24 AM

I'm gonna reverse just a bit.. I can see some good points about the .357 for purposes other than deer hunting... Might make a good truck/saddle gun if you had a grudge against coyotes.... The CBs do have something of a weight problem by modern standards, but since I'd only deerhunt with a cartridge like that from a treestand, I don't think it'd bother me much.

Too bad they didn't bother to spruce .444 up a bit... Looks like nobody cares much about it...:rolleyes:

But that's no 1894 action on that .444, either. Looks more like an 1895CB, but they were making them in .38-55 for a while at least...

dave-t.

06-09-2009, 11:14 AM

The thing about those carbines in .357/.44 is that where long shots will be inside 75yds anyway, you don't need the weight, length and thunder of a long action to get the job done, you don't need a scope either. Keeping the gun light and handy for close work is all you really need in that situation.

I agree that when hunting with one, you set up for a long bowshot or midrange muzzleloader shot, and place the shot right.

Deer were practically wiped out in the last century with guns similar to these pistol cartridge carbines. I'm sure old Danny Boone would have grinned ear to ear at the thought of using such awesome firepower as a 10 shot repeater launching a 240grn .44 out at 1700-1900fps and carrying 1000fpe out to 125-150yds (20" barrel). Heck a 30-30 is only doing 2100fps or so with a 170grn load, and it is considered a viable 200yd deer rifle. Trajectories of the 357, 44 and 30-30 are within fractions of an inch of each other out to 115yrd or so. Out at 125yds (when sighted x at 100yds with open sights), the 30-30 gets a full inch flatter shooting. :eek:

Buffalo bore has loads for the 357 mag that in a carbine puts a 158grn out going 2150fps!

Bill Gunn

06-09-2009, 11:30 AM

Too bad they didn't bother to spruce .444 up a bit... Looks like nobody cares much about it...:rolleyes:

I've got a couple .444's. The older ones had nice wood, but the newer ones look like crap.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/206229425.jpg

GF.

06-09-2009, 12:33 PM

Bill - I'm very sorry that I have to agree with you, because my 1895 looks just like that one on top :eek::rolleyes:

Yeah... 158 grains at 2150 vs. 170 grains at 2200 even? Is that about the size of it? Hot loads totally change the equation, IMO.... And of course, to be fair, I suppose some would say that you have to hot-load the .30-30, which I don;t think is the point. Point is, if you use the right ammo, the rifle will do just what you need it to do.

It's funny how readily we get hypnotized with ballistics tables... If memory serves, the world record Elk was taken with a .30-40 Krag and the record mulie with a .32 Win Special....

dave-t.

06-10-2009, 09:39 AM

Don't forget the #2 in the B&C book whitetail was taken with a 25-20.

Altjaeger

06-10-2009, 10:12 AM

Don't forget the #2 in the B&C book whitetail was taken with a 25-20.

True, but when you read of the mulitiple hits that poor buck took and the multiday tracking job involved it speaks for itself.

dave-t.

06-10-2009, 11:17 AM

Yep, it was a far piece from an ideal hunting scenario.

Sabre

06-10-2009, 04:58 PM

True, but when you read of the mulitiple hits that poor buck took and the multiday tracking job involved it speaks for itself.

The result of poorly placed shots is all that boils down to. The little .25-20 would have killed that buck dead as a stone with one shot if it had been well placed. I've done it enough times with .22's and .22 magnums to have no doubts. I used to have a .357 carbine and it worked very well on deer for me. My longest kill with it was 150 yards. The shot was a broadside to the lungs with a 158 grain Winchester factory load. The bullet passed completely through and the deer didn't go 50 yards after the hit. That little Marlin .357 was easily the most versatile rifle I've ever owned. Loaded with 158 grain .38 special's it worked great on rabbits and squirrels with no more meat damage than .22 LR hp's. Loaded with full house .357's it would group about an inch and a half at 100 and worked great on woodchucks and deer out to 150 yards. The darn thing didn't even need to be re-zero'd when switching back and forth between the .38's and .357's. When sighted dead on at 50 yards with 38's it was dead on at 100 with the full power stuff. If there's another rifle that can cover everything from squirrel's to deer as well as that .357 did I'd sure like to know what it is.

Altjaeger

06-10-2009, 05:37 PM

The result of poorly placed shots is all that boils down to. The little .25-20 would have killed that buck dead as a stone with one shot if it had been well placed. I've done it enough times with .22's and .22 magnums to have no doubts. I used to have a .357 carbine and it worked very well on deer for me. My longest kill with it was 150 yards. The shot was a broadside to the lungs with a 158 grain Winchester factory load. The bullet passed completely through and the deer didn't go 50 yards after the hit. Plenty powerful enough for deer at typical woods ranges. That little Marlin .357 was easily the most versatile rifle I've ever owned. Loaded with 158 grain .38 special's it worked great on rabbits and squirrels with no more meat damage than .22 LR hp's. Loaded with full house .357's it would group about an inch and a half at 100 and worked great on woodchucks and deer out to 150 yards. The darn thing didn't even need to be re-zero'd when switching back and forth between the .38's and .357's. When sighted dead on at 50 yards with 38's it was dead on at 100 with the full power stuff.

I was not commenting on the .357 in anyway. Only that the Jordan buck and the .25-20 are a bad example. As I recall the story they were solid chest hits. The buck already running when spotted made the shots taken by Jordan less than conducive to humane kills with a marginal cartridge. As low powered as the 25-20 is it should be restricted to the same CNS shots associated with the use of rimfires, or at least a solid chest hit on a calm deer unlikely to run far before bleeding out. About any cartridge will humanely kill a deer if placed properly. The trick is the disciplined hunter being truly prepared to pass marginal shots and sticking to it when using such rounds.

Bill Gunn

06-10-2009, 05:53 PM

Sabre

06-10-2009, 06:22 PM

I was not commenting on the .357 in anyway. Only that the Jordan buck and the .25-20 are a bad example. As I recall the story they were solid chest hits. The buck already running when spotted made the shots taken by Jordan less than conducive to humane kills with a marginal cartridge. As low powered as the 25-20 is it should be restricted to the same CNS shots associated with the use of rimfires, or at least a solid chest hit on a calm deer unlikely to run far before bleeding out. About any cartridge will humanely kill a deer if placed properly. The trick is the disciplined hunter being truly prepared to pass marginal shots and sticking to it when using such rounds.

It's been a long time since I read the Jordan buck story but I do seem to remember several peripheral hits to the hips, guts and legs.

Altjaeger

06-10-2009, 06:36 PM

Been a long time here too. That is why I say, "as I remember". Bottom line is that marginal catridges require more precise placement and shrinks the size of the acceptable target and conditions for a shot.:)

Altjaeger

06-10-2009, 06:42 PM

I would have to think that AT LEAST 50% (:rolleyes:) of the guys on this board would take a running shot at the Jordan Buck (206 1/8 score) with Whatever they had in their hands at the time...

http://www.deergear.com/images/LW_R18143_P.jpg

You are likely right. You are unlikely to know when you will meet a big buck in an odd place. That's why it is prudent to carry a rifle that is without a doubt powerful enough for any reasonable shot at all times.

Bill Gunn

06-18-2009, 07:38 AM

TinStar
I shot this target when I sighted the gun in for deer season last fall.

I shot one shot to dirty the barrel, then 3 for a group.

I was pleasantly surprised when I walked up to the target, but I don't know which hole is the first shot as i was using a 1.5X5 power scope set on 2.5 on the 100 yard range.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/367392074.jpg

TinStar

06-19-2009, 06:25 AM

Bill,

That's a very nice group! Had a chance to shoot my friend's Marlin .357 last week and I loved everything about it. It's on the list!

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

TinStar

06-19-2009, 06:28 AM

By the way Bill,
What do think of this crappy weather we've been having lately. Couple of nights this week I've had to start a fire in the stove to take the damp chill out of the house. Course it's an old house, but it makes my uninvited guest; Arthur Itis, feel a little better.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

Bill Gunn

06-20-2009, 10:27 AM

You don't have to say any more about cold nights, and old houses, this one was built in 1866 !!

I added a good barn, truck and boat, so I like it...

Altjaeger

06-20-2009, 10:30 AM

You don't have to say any more about cold nights, and old houses, this one was built in 1866 !!

I added a good barn, truck and boat, so I like it...

Forget the barn, truck and boat!!! I know from your other photos their nice.

I want to see the house. Old archtecture and construction fascinates me!!!

Bill Gunn

06-20-2009, 11:15 AM

LOL,

Here's how I remodel around here...

Call the local volunteer fire company (that's a lit flare in his hand, and fire in the right front corner),

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/2236628/27026250.jpg

And give them a beer or two, and hope they stop the house from burnin' down...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/2236628/27026247.jpg

Then call your neighbor with the bulldoser...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/2236628/63285755.jpg

Now the place looks like this from the satelites...

Just an old farm house on an old dirt road...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/2236628/367575359.jpg

And it's easy to get along with the neighbors.... There aint none.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/2236628/367575887.jpg

ncboman

06-20-2009, 12:09 PM

oh man. :eek:

Folks from NJ come down here and pay BIG money for old barn boards like that plained, refinished, an turned into wall covering, etc.

ncboman

Bill Gunn

06-20-2009, 01:54 PM

I checked that all out before I burned it. It honestly wasn't worth the bother.
Not only that, but exactly at the time I was looking at disassembling it, a guy in the town right next to ours decided that even though there was no market for them at the time ( there's TONS of 150 year old barns around here), he would disassemble his, and hold on to the boards and beams until he found a good buyer.

While taking the barn apart, a 150 year old wooden peg broke and the beam it was in unexpectedly fell (almost all the barns around here are wooden peg constructed)...

And killed him, right then, and right there...Dead :(

I decided to burn mine for the cost of a case of beer, and they only drank about 10 of 'em!

Lots cheaper than removal ($10,000.00) or a funeral ($4000.00 to $8000.00)

TinStar

06-21-2009, 05:54 AM

Bill,

My old place originally was a one-room farm hand house built 1830's-40's. Had several rooms added on over the yeras. I'm in the process of remodeling the loft(part of the original) and have come across hand-hewn, pegged beams. Plan on leaving them exposed. Most of the roof rafters are made of 6" cherry and beech logs. They are like petrified wood.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

Bill Gunn

06-21-2009, 08:51 AM

I'll show you some neat stuff...

When I remodel the house, being how it is of double plank construction, I always find old newspapers that they glued to the planks for stopping wind, and providing insulation. I have found papers from 1866 to the very early 1900's.
Here's one article I found. It's the story of how the very first law enforcement officers that were murdered in the state of Maine (Game Wardens) in 1886.
I sent a copy of this to the people that keep tract of LEO deaths (in the line of duty) some years back.
The link I'll provide below the article that I found in the wall shows where one of the murderers was caught in California in 1887...

I have a shoe box of articles I have found.
Imagine all the history that is inside the walls of this house. I haven't even opened 20% of the walls, and after being here 32 years, I doubt I ever will...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/1527241/367649604.jpg

Captured...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9505E0DA1630E633A2575AC0A9629C94669FD7CF

Hi Ball

06-21-2009, 01:52 PM

I remember some years back, when the brought out the .307 also the .375 in a lever gun but it seemed like not to many folks believed in these for the hunting of whitetail deer in my state or other states. Sales did not do well and most were discontinued.

The .357 mag back in the 60's would have been ok with Super-Vel ammo but never seen any carbines fire the ammo back then. I did try shooting a 6-point buck at 40 yards once with my 6 inch Python and Super-Vel ammo. It was a heck of a tracking job and that blessed deer went forever.

I gotta agree with GF on the 30-30 and 170 grain bullets for whitetail, they simply work without any bells or whistles attached. I loved my 25-06 for deer but have a real love affair with the newer 6.5/06.;):D

GF.

06-22-2009, 04:04 PM

I wanted one of those .375 Wins in the worst way.... Ever since I had passed up a Marlin in that chambering on a close-out deal in about '90. Finally came across one of the '94 BigBores about 10 years back... it had been sitting on a rack in the local shop for just about forever, and the price was right.

So I went home to think about it and when I got back, it was gone....

Nice wood, too :(

I don't know if anybody ever sold factory loads for that round with anything sturdier than a plain vanilla cup & core deer bullet, but I always thought it would make as much sense in a lever gun as anything else out there, and more than many, if you wannna throw Elk in there... And I always figure I need to consider the Elk hunting application, just in case ;)

Didn't they make those in something around .358, too? .348? Something like that, I believe....

I just liked the sound of .375

Bill Gunn

06-22-2009, 04:42 PM

GF,

Here ya go...

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131932555#PIC

The Marlin's are VERY easy to clean up, and look BETTER than they did from the factory.
Here's a Marlin stock I refinished with hand rubbed Boiled Linseed oil...

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2250/777751/13525437/291397231.jpg

GO FOR IT !!!

We'll sit here and cheer you on... Long as it's YOUR money :D :D

southtexas

06-22-2009, 08:49 PM

Very nice!

GF.

06-23-2009, 12:31 PM

Looks good, Bill, but I think I'll stand pat with the .45/70 :cool:

If there's anything I can't hunt with that puppy, I don't wanna know what it is :D

I probably ought to consider refinishing what I've got and adding a recoil pad that actually works, but I always remember what Dave Petzal once said about DIY gunsmithing...

"There are two kinds of people who work on their own guns: Those who know what they're doing... And Fools."