the bullet you select and shot placement matters

[rimrock]

I just got a call from a buddy and we discussed his recent ELK hunt.
he said his average shots across oak brush and juniper at about 150 yards-180 yards,he used a 30/06 for years but lost that rifle in a house fire so hes been using a custom built 35 whelen carbine (its on a ruger action synthetic stock, 22 inch barrel,)for several years
and the first couple years he loaded a 225 grain sierra 35 cal bullet, over IMR 4064 and reported very good accuracy, at about 2400fps but hes had both mule deer and ELK hit reasonably well that ran much further than he thought they should, so he swapped to the speer 250 grain,over H380 at about 2370fps this year after I suggested it, as Ive had good results in both my 358 win and 35 whelen,with the speer 250 grain, and while hes only shot one mule deer and a cow elk so far , with that load ,hes telling me that hes been impressed as hes getting larger exit wounds.
personally I think they are BOTH decent bullets but they do exhibit different characteristics on impact.
one factor I think ,that was important ,to his increased success, was that I stressed aiming for the arteries over the heart and sent him a few anatomy charts, and tried to make it clear that shot placement was critical, while up to this year, Im fairly sure the standard aim point, in his mind was only(punch the lungs)

[Bushman]

I remember Don Wald writing about the doe that he gunned with his .35 Whelen and it too ran away lots farther than what he had expected. Some of those .35 caliber bullets must be made a little harder once you get past the 200 grain .35 Remington and .358 kinds of bullets. I'm surprised to read that it is a Sierra. Even a .35 Whelen starting out at 2400 fps isn't going to be romping along very fast to break up a bullet when it gets out near 180 yards.

[Hi Ball]

Gentlemen, I believe the problem is in the Sectional Density of the 225 grain bullet. While they may work just fine for a whitetail deer, they just don't have the driving power to get the bullet into the vitals like the 250 grain bullets. I have a 35-Whelen in the vault (Remington model) for years and really don't shoot it much at all, since all of my hunting rifles are indeed model 70 Winchesters with pre-64 actions.

The .338-06 is better with a 225 grain bullet because it is simply faster! The extra gas drive that lighter bullet deeper is what I am trying to say. The results are thus better. The 35-Whelen needs a 250 grain bullet to get the job done on big animals like elk. I personally belive that the 35-Whelen is a rifle for under 150 yards on moose, elk and bear etc. It looses to much velocity passed 150 yards! The Sectional Density of a 250 grn bullet is .279 which is very good in most cases.

I remember trying to use some of those 200 grn. Nosler bullets back in the mid 80's but NO CIGAR!!! They just did not work well as far as penetration was concerned. In 1989 I tried some of Nosler's Partition bullets in the 225 grain, in their manual they gave a top velocity of 2600fps with IMR-4320 powder but I could never reach passed 2500fps with this in my gun and they sure did not fly well on target. I had close to 4 inch groups at 100 yards.:eek:

I ended up settling for a velocity of 2285fps using IMR-4350 powder. However, I still did not get near as good of penetration with this bullet. I shot a 6 point buck that year with the 35-Whelen but was not happy with the results. I broke the front shoulder and the bullet never exited the deer. The range was about 90 yards as I remember.

I got my hands on some 250 grn Hornady bullets using 3031 powder at 48.5 grains, just under Max, velocity was 2400fps and this became a very good load for the 35-Whelen. I would love to have some 275 grn bullets for the 35-Whelen and my .358 Winchester, why even at 2200fps they would penetrate very deep. This extra bullet weight counts a bunch! Now that 225 grain bullet needed something like 2650fps in order to penetrate that lighter bullet and it was just not going to happen with any powders at that time for the 35-Whelen.:)

[postoak]

These results are confusing because they are somewhat contradictory. I'm taking the 225 Barnes TSXs in .35 Whelen to Africa because that's what the outfitter recommended. I guess I'll see how they penetrate.

As for placement, we had a LONG thread on this that is now lost, and I remember that although I wanted to shoot forward of behind the shoulder, that everyone with a lot of experience talked me out of it. But, we'll see what they think of this over-the-top of the heart shot.

[Bushman]

From what I've seen with TSX's, they are going out the back side of near anything that you shoot them into. I personally think that it wouldn't make a bit of difference if it was a 225 or a 250 grain TSX as they retain their weight and penetrate so well. The extra velocity of the 225 grain would be a plus I'd think for opening it up and lighter recoil. When are you going to Africa?

[postoak]

Well, I was going in May 2010, but I've put it off until May 2011 because I've got too much going on this year. (However the trip is all paid for.)

[Wild_Bill_Hiccup]

My favorite load in the 35 Whelen uses the el'cheapo 250 grain Speer bullet at around 2,600 fps. It kills wonderfully well on everything from mouse deer to water buffalo (although I prefer the 310 gr for close encounters of the grumpy kind). Penetration is usually complete pass-throughs or the bullet will be found in the off-side hide. I really don't feel there is a need for premium controlled expansion bullets at this modest velocity range.

I've also used the 225 grain Nosler Accubond and found it to be very accurate and fast for a Whelen (2,700 fps+), but I personally wouldn't choose this bullet for anything larger than elk... it does open up fast and puts deer-sized stuff down very quickly. It makes a good all-rounder for somebody using the Whelen on mixed bag hunts of medium sized game.

In truth, any bullet of 225 grains, or more, will work well in the Whelen. It is more about shot placement than anything else... always has been and always will be.

Postoak, your 225 TSX will be just great as those x-bullets penetrate no matter what. I'd aim for shoulder bones and watch 'em fall.

Good luck!

[Hi Ball]

Postoak........One NEVER pays 100 percent on any hunt up front!!! Geez hope the outfitter is still in business at the time of your hunt. They do come and go like flies on $hit.:D :D :D

[Herne]

with respect to all, but a high heart shot will be a fast killer. It has to be because it shears all the pipes and there is zero blood pressure. (In passing by definition its a double lunger as well so whats left - if any - won't work anyway.)

A standard 1/3 up shot is a double lung shot only , and you have to wait till blood pressure drops by spillage.

High heart puts them down quickly, because nothing walks very far on zero BP. OTOH, its a relatively small target, but you still have holes in both lungs as backup, so its a minimal risk strategy.

Its the shot I always used, apart from the occasional head or high neck. Don't think I have ever had one fail to go down reasonably quickly.

The ones that didn't were either an error or a deflection, but for that you blame the shooter.

[Bushman]

Herne, I was a 1/2 way up shooter for a lot of years and while there was always a dead deer at the end of the trail, there wasn't a lot of blood on the ground getting there. Then I started shooting lower and I've liked the blood trails more. I figured that I was shooting more like that 1/3 up, but now I'm reading that you think that even that might be too high. Are you thinking more like 1/4 high?