Best Emergency Bivy?

[DancesWithKnives]

I've been thinking about what would be the best emergency bivy if you were stuck out overnight in sub-freezing conditions. I'm assuming you would have an ultralight mylar space blanket or ultralight pancho/tarp to use above you and that you would be able to use vegetation to keep yourself off the snow/cold ground.

Adventure Medical Kits makes some Thermolite bivy bags that are said to be a big improvement over the plain mylar sheet space bags. They weigh a bit under 7 ounces and run about $30. Some folks say they are good for multiple uses. The problem is that they don't breathe and condensation tends to build up while you are inside them.

Next up from there would be one of the ultralight backpacking quilts on the market, with either down or synthetic insulation. They run about 9-16 ounces and cost anywhere from $100 to over $300. Good for summer camping/backpacking as well as being a winter survival backup.

Then I started thinking, if you're carrying that much weight and spending that much money, why not just bring a Marmot Hydrogen down sleeping bag? They weigh about a pound and last time I checked, run a bit under $300. They aren't rated for use below freezing but would make a damn fine summer bag and would certainly help you get through a sub-freezing night outdoors.

In any event, what would be your thoughts (or what is your present practice) on the best bivy-type gear to carry for cold weather hunting in remote areas?

DWK

[Twanger]

While climbing in winter I survived the night out with the temps hovering about 15F without a bag.
The combination of a few things saved me.
1) Stayed dry
2) Got out of the wind (huddled on a ledge under an overhanging bolder)
3) Stay off the ground.
4) My climbing pack expanded into a bivy sack that you can pull up under your armpits, complete with sleeping pad. Arcteryx made the pack.
5) Buy the best down parka you can afford. They are half a sleeping bag, VERY small, and very warm.
6) Share body heat (had another climber with me)

It was an uncomfortable night, but I survived without getting frostbite and walked myself off the mountain. The best you can hope for.

[DancesWithKnives]

Good result!

Your points are well made. I carry the means to stay dry, keep wind off me, and stay off the ground. Typically I carry a 12 oz. Western Mountaineering Flight Jacket that has better loft than many other manufacturers' products that weigh twice as much. In extreme conditions, I use a Marmot 8000 Meter Parka but it's too warm for normal weather. Also considerably heavier/bulkier to carry than the Flight Jacket---if you don't need to wear it.

I definitely need to take a look at that Arcteryx pack.

Thanks very much for your input,

DWK

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

There was this bar in Beaumont ....................... but that was a long time ago!

Alan

[DancesWithKnives]

There is a guy who makes ultralight quilts out of 0.33 oz/yd Cuben competition sail fabric. Using 850 cu in/oz down he gets a lot of loft out of an 11 oz. quilt. All it takes is money to pick up this type of gear!:smile:

DWK

[Greybeard]

DWK, 2 local fellow hunters use bivvy sack bags. They go up the mountain with their back packs, about 35 pounds, and stay up to 5 to 6 days/nites. They camp where they stopped hunting in the evening right at dark. They get their elk every year. The experienced Mt. Hood mountain climbers carry bivy sacks. I do not know brand names but they do work. Suspect the better bags are expensive but probably worth the cost. If I was younger, I would give them a serious try but my wife would not let me now. Greybeard/

[DancesWithKnives]

That's certainly an effective way to economically hunt elk. In the next year I'm hoping to move to a location where I can have a horse and pack mule. As I get older, that will ease those backcountry hunting trips---especially packing out the meat!

DWK

[GF.]

Is the breathability of the space bag an issue when you're wearing wool or good poly? It would be nice, of course, not to get too wet, but wool has got to be far and away about the only good thing about being a sheep...

But the extreme-weather stuff often uses a vapor barrier, no? Apparently, someone has now come out with what is essentially "space gore-tex", so it'll be interesting to see what products it'll spawn....

Anyway, in answer to your question, I just carry one or two space blankets, and I have an 850-fill-power down jacket that doesn't take up much space... Now if I just had matching bib overalls.....

I did find a great bivvy the other day - big, honkin' old tree with a hollow at the bottom, just barely big enough for me to squeeze through. Sure wish I had one o' those along a deer trail somewhere, because I got in there out of the wind and it was suddenly extremely tolerable... A few fir boughs on the floor and something to fill the opening, and while there wasn't any hope of stretching out much, I think a guy could get through some pretty fearsome weather in there. Seems to work for the bears, but fortunately, there's no way any hibernation-ready bear could squeeze in there...

[DancesWithKnives]

There is certainly a debate about whether the protection afforded by the space bag significantly outweighs the detriment of becoming moist from condensation. If you were being pelted by wet snow or sleet driven by high winds, then I'd certainly say yes. If you were able to sit/lie by a fire, maybe there would be less value to it.

I normally carry a Western Mountaineering Flight Jacket that is similarly 850 down. Good down pants can be had from www.featheredfriends.com. Marmot also makes some 8000 Meter Pants to match the 8000 Meter Parka I have, but I like the FF products a bit better.

There are plenty of breathable Gore-tex bivys out there and I have friends who own them. The problem is that they can weigh as much as 2 lbs in the case of the more deluxe Outdoor Research models and they provide no insulating layer beyond the fabric itself. For that weight, I can carry my 15 degree Marmot Helium bag at 1 lb 13 oz.

That shelter spot you found sounds terrific. I'll bet that's exactly what primitive hunters clad in furs would have looked for in severe conditions!

Thanks for your thoughts,

DWK

[swamp]

perhaps the following.... I once got stuck out over nite during the fall of the yr in NW WY and these would have been nice
bivy -- http://www.rei.com/product/721117
bag -- http://www.featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Bags/Product/0Degree.html

[Rock Chuck]

Don't forget the pad. Down bags need one as the down under you compresses to 0. Sleeping on frozen ground in one without a good pad isn't something you'll want to do more than once.

[stinky]

Rock Chuck hit the nail on the head....screw the weight and carry what you need. If you just decide that if you keep it under 5# and carry what you need, you'll be WARM, COMFORTABLE and RESTED and able to function the next day. It is worth the weight to be warm and comfortable.

Wiggy's makes a really neat bivvy....which by definition is a small tent.

If you can't afford to carry an extra few #, that mean that you haven't prepared for your hunt (by being in good shape) and should just stay on your ATV, or w/in a mile of your truck.

[swamp]

Don't forget the pad. Down bags need one as the down under you compresses to 0. Sleeping on frozen ground in one without a good pad isn't something you'll want to do more than once.

try the big agnes pads better than thermarest IMO
http://www.rei.com/search?search=sleeping+pads&cat=8000&jxBrand=Big+Agnes&hist=query%2Csleeping+pads%5EjxBrand%2CBig+Agnes

[DancesWithKnives]

Many years ago I had an ongoing project in Seattle. I went to Feathered Friends and got a custom expedition overbag. They do very nice work.

When you were stuck out overnight in WY, were you able to maintain a fire all night? What was the weather like?

Thanks---always curious about how people handle such situations.

DWK

[Bushman]

Yeah, I'm afraid that this thread is kind of lost on me. If I'm that far out in the wilds, I'll have the makings of starting a fire and just hunker down in my heaviest hunting stuff from my pack for the night. The worst weather that I ever ran into was out in CO. back in the 90's. Trees snapping off all around me in very strong winds and lots of snow. I built a windbreak out of snow to ride out the storm. Waist deep snow in one morning was something that I had not expected. That much wind blew the tops of the hills off so I could walk out.

[DancesWithKnives]

Yes, I may have failed to frame the question clearly. I'm not asking about what folks carry when they PLAN to be out overnight. I'm curious about hunters' practices when they are out for one day in a wilderness area that will drop below freezing at night. What type of space bag or bivy bag do people carry in case a problem keeps them out over night, if they carry anything at all. I know many people who carry nothing along these lines while others carry a 3-4 ounce space bag or a 7 ounce Adventure Medical Kits thermolite bivy. Obviously one could carry a full tent, pad and sleeping bag setup but how many hunters really do that "just in case"?

My interest is more in what folks think is adequate for an emergency backup bivy when one does not plan to be out overnight in a wilderness area that experiences temps below freezing. I think there were some good answers and my responses were merely meant to promote discussion. In addition to collecting advice, I was trying to liven this subforum up a little.

Thanks for the contributions,

DWK

[GF.]

I wrote a pretty detailed response and just lost it.... Dayum.

Anyway - I guess a guy ought to be able to get by with his hunting clothes and some common sense: 1) stay dry; 2) get out of the wind; 3) find good thermal cover; 4) insulate yourself from the ground; 5) get a fire going.

Personally, I'd think myself an idiot if I headed out without a space blanket, because they only weigh a couple ounces but can pretty well cover #s 1-4 on the list, especially if you can find some fir boughs to lie down on. Fire-starting kit gets you the rest of the way there.

Realistically, my chances of having to spend a night out are almost nil. We know our Elk-hunting area well enough to get back to camp in the dark - short of a blinding snowstorm or no moon, heavy overcast and stone dead flashlights all conspiring against us, I suppose... And in the worst of worst-case scenarios up there, even all of the above would only be 'inconvenient' unless it were just so slick & treacherous that proceeding would be completely inadvisable. So unless we were badly hurt or on the track of a wounded animal and were worried about getting back onto the trail the next day....

But of course, I really ought to pick myself a crappy weekend and go find out first-hand if my day pack holds everything I need or not. I can think of a lot of handy tricks just sitting here, but most survival skills are best mastered at one's leisure, not learned in extremis........

[swamp]

DWK, I had plenty of extra cloths that nite, was no wind to speak of and very clear... was cold probly down to 10 F... I didnt sleep just stayed up... standing up moving around... was a long nite. was too dark to find firewood and things were rather damp... had an inadequate flashlight... but plenty of clothes which were great and a space blanket that was useless...

[bill m]

DWK,
I remember this thread coming up from time to time.
I like GF's thoughts:

"Anyway - I guess a guy ought to be able to get by with his hunting clothes and some common sense: 1) stay dry; 2) get out of the wind; 3) find good thermal cover; 4) insulate yourself from the ground; 5) get a fire going."

You might remember that I am not a fan of anything that is either ruined when it gets wet or causes you to get wet. That includes down and anything that is close to your body and doesn't breathe. That means that I won't ever own a down sleeping bag or use a space sack or blanket unless I'm going to die without it. My space blanket, which I do have, is used for a mat outside my tent and to put my gear on. If a person uses down in inclement weather and gets soaked, they're in trouble if their night out turns into an extended stay. I hiked with a guy who used a bivey. He was wet in the mornings and had to air his bag out. In the weather you could run into hunting, airing a bag out might not be possible. We hiked in good weather.

Polarguard and other synthetics have a great advantage: if they get wet, you can ring them out, at worst, and continue to use them. I only once was caught in a storm while hiking the North Cascades where I got soaked. We slept iin bags that we actually squeezed water out of. During the night I was so cold that I thought I would do better getting out of the bag. After 15 minutes, I realized that I was warmer in the bag. When down bags get wet, they resemble a bag of oatmeal. They are basically unusable. I have never been more miserable. But I'm telling the story.

I put lots of value in thermal base layers, extra dry socks, a tarp or lean-to tent, parachute cord, and knowing that you can get a fire started in any kind of weather. With synthetic thermal base layers and a cover to keep you out of the rain or snow, you will be OK without a sleeping bag.

I know that down is popular. I just worry about the things that might happen that will get it wet. Rain, snow, falling in a stream. I did the last one once.

In the end, you can outfit for a night out and actually save weight by using things that are more weather proof.

[Rock Chuck]

Take a look at an oversized poncho. It has multiple uses. A good one has grommets for rigging a shelter. A big one can be folded over like a bivy. It has a hood to keep you dry and is designed to wear over a pack. If 2 guys have them, they can be combined to make a pretty decent tent. And, it only weighs as much as any other nylon tarp/garment with the same square footage.

[DancesWithKnives]

Well I've got to say that my experiences with down and Polarguard have been different than Bill's. Although I used down bags on wilderness river trips in AK for many years without problems, I decided to follow the Polarguard advice and get a North Face Polarguard 3D bag rated around zero. What a huge disappointment when the insulation compressed and (mostly) failed after a few years. It's about a 45-50 degree summer car camping bag now. On the other hand, I have a Sierra Designs Cloud Series 700 cu. in./oz. down bag that I bought in about 1977 and it still functions at around 95%.

I agree that having a good layering system makes a lot of sense. I have some Smartwool and Ibex merino wool base layer garments that I really appreciate in cold conditions.

I have an oversized ripstop nylon poncho from Campmor that has an extension long enough to cover a backpack. It has loops for deployment as a shelter. I also have Campmor's slightly smaller and lighter silnylon poncho that I carry on longer backpacking trips, where the weight is often more critical than durability.

Thanks for the good information!

DWK

[bill m]

Your story on the Polarguard is disappointing. It shouldn't have failed. Did you ever get in touch with the maker of the bag and ask for their take on it?
One thing that I don't do with any of my insulated things is to store them compressed. I hang my bags just like you see them in the store. I don't know what you do. But bags aren't supposed to be stored compressed; not even down.
My bag is the one that I made some 15 years ago. It still works as advertised.
Polarguard 3D has been replaced by a new material now. It's still polarguard but has a different name at the end.
Have you ever gotten your down really wet? That's the part that steers me away. One time in the water and you're in trouble.
I could be lucky for years. Skill and care play a large part. But accidents happen. It only takes once in the wrong enviornment.

[DancesWithKnives]

Agreed,I never store bags compressed. I am going to contact North Face about the insulation problem.

I think the next generation was called Polarguard Delta.

Thanks,

DWK

[bill m]

Hey,
Let me know what you find out on your bag. I'm making a new one here soon and haven't made up my mind what I'm going to use.
Unfortunately if there are problems with some of these materials, we won't know until a few years down the road. So we're the lab rats.
You always hope that they test sufficiently enough to guarantee the life of the material.
Good luck with that.

[swamp]

synthetic filled bags don't hold a candle to goose down bags in three areas... insulating ability, weight and compressibility... but u must keep your down bag dry... get a good down bag from a manufacturer such as marmot or feathered friends... you probably will not put another synthetic bag in your backpack after packing a premium down bag