More questions on how to choose a handgun...

[GF.]

OK, so the Glock has fans because it has a dirt-simple safety, right? Makes sense to me - not everybody has the time & inclination to get to be so automatic with their shooters that they could get a different sort of safety 'off' as quickly as might one day be necessary....

But is a Glock any quicker/safer than say, a DA revolver? Yeah, yeah, I know the Glocks can hold more rounds, but for me, I'd probably be looking at a compact, single-stack .45, which really cuts down on the gap between a semi and even a compact 5-shot revolver.

And I dunno... Anybody know how many rounds are fired in a typical, civilian DLP shooting? Some times I think we take a lot more comfort (or find a lot more ego gratification) in high-cap models than actual incidents would prove them to be worth....

Now, maybe you guys will tell me that I really do need a .40, so I can get more rounds in there, but I guess I've just been assuming that a slimmer grip is preferable for someone with smaller hands like mine. Agree? Disagree?

And of course, since I'm not a real big dude, any kind of bulge under my jacket is going to stand out more than on most, so it seems to me that the width of the grip would have a lot to do with how well concealed it would be in carry... And seeing as ammo is relatively heavy... and seeing as the fact that handguns are heavy is a big reason why most people find carrying to be overall something of a PITA... then I guess I don't see a big advantage to having a great stinking boatload of firepower at home in the safe vs. even an O/U .22 LR derringer right there in your pocket.:hmmmm2:

So here again, I wonder about a revolver... Can't you put a much smaller, slimmer grip on a pistol when it's not required to serve double-duty as a magazine? I know there are snubbies out there with grips that look like popsicle sticks... Not sure I'd necessarily care to go that light, but I don't know that those are really intended as first-line items anyway....

But here we go, round and round again.... Is it better to carry one higher-cap piece than two lighter ones, or dos it make more sense to have something on you at all times and extra back-up when there's a much greater chance that you'd need it?

I realize most of these questions are more matters of opinion than fat, and that's fine by me....

Just one or two more thoughts, though... Just because I thought these were kind of amusing....

[Doug S]

GF,

Personally, I would not mix my carry selection with my fun gun. For carry I'd get one of the downsized compact semi's in whatever cal makes you comfortable. For fun, well there's a bazillion of them out there, I like the 1911s and also the 9mm HiPowers because they are single action like the 1911 and cheaper to shoot.

Point is, your gonna need two (atleast) to be happy..oh darn!

Doug

[Gil Martin]

It depends on what you prefer, handles well and can afford. Good luck. All the best...
Gil

[Just a Hunter]

GF

You have a number of very legitimate questions, and I will try to go through a few of them.
The Glock if memory serves me corrrectly has 3 internal safeties that disengage as the trigger is pulled.
This seems to be a bit overkill until you realize that on striker fired pistols that for better words the striker spring may be under 30% to 75% tension whenever you load a round in the chamber.
(im told one brand is under full tension)
This allows the striker fired pistols to have a very comfortable trigger with very little pressure needed to fire in comparison to a double action pistol. IMO the striker fired pistols trigger is very comparable to that
of a revolver when you have chosen to thumb the hammer back before firing.
OK, So you may have 3 safeties, but you also have a pistol which is ready to fire with a great deal of ease. A revolver wont go off until you squeeze the trigger, but I wouldnt wish to walk around with one if the hammer was back.
There have been numerous officer incidents involving self shootings and striker fired pistols, and these individuals have a great deal more training and range firing than the average citizen.
If I was going to buy any of the striker fired pistols I would make positive it was offered with a external safety . (yes there are several to choose from these days and for good reason)

There is very little reason you would need over 6 rounds for your personal safety. The fact is even if your assailed by 12 guys ou can be assured of a mass exodus the moment you start firing at them.

What caliber do you need?
Some people will continue to argue that the larger more powerful rounds are the way to go, but is this true?
Most of the disrespect the 9mm has is due to shootings involving hardball non expanding ammo.
The armed forces would like a 45cal pistol again due to there use of this ammo and for good reason.
If my bullet didnt expand I would want the largest diameter bullet available also.

The fact is many of todays self defense 9mm rounds will deliver over 15" of penetration and expand to over .62 in diameter.
You may even find some 9mm's that will penetrate deeper than a comparable .40

What is to like about the 9mm is the ability to shoot it with a mild recoil, and the ability to carry a higher capacity if you wished.

In regards to caliber choices between a 9mm , 40 or 45 I would be confident enough with any of these that I would go with whichever came with the lowest price.

In regards to a revolver I have never felt undergunned by a 38special and with the +P rounds available you shouldnt be.

Your right in saying even the best pistol is worthless if you dont have it on your person.
This is why I will give you my best suggestion for your needs.
S&W 638 lightweight
The hammer is shrouded so it wont hang on anything if you need it and carry concealed.
Combine this with a Galco pocket holster and you have a package that allows you to carry it comfortably yet it wont print in your pocket and allows you to retreive it easily
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwesson/model638.jpg
http://images1.opticsplanet.com/180-180-ffffff/opplanet-galco-front-pocket-concealment-holsters.png

If I chose not to get a revolver I would look at something like the Ruger SR9 with the external safety, and Im told for this year they are said to have a compact version available
SR9C
http://ruger.com/products/sr9c/images/firearms.jpg

Or the P-O7 from CZ
The trigger guard looks a little funny at first, but works well even with gloved hands
http://images.dealerease.net/prodpics/czuspic91186.jpg

[Hi Ball]

The little .38spl Smith & Wesson "Airweight" model is one of the very best out there for CCW and tops in concealment too! However, they don't fit just anybody's hand and that can be the draw back to someone wanting that particular handgun. I used to have a .357 magnum in a similar pistols, heavier but very effective with 125 grn bullets going out the end of the barrel.

I am NOT a lover of GLOCKS but do realize the importance of their dependability and tuffness in the field. I also like carrying more than just 5 rounds in a 6 shot pistol or worse, 4 rounds in a 5 shot pistol. Now days carjackers come in triplets usually and 4 shots just does not cut the mustard at our house. Thus the Glock model 29 sub-compact in 10mm caliber holds 11 rounds in the pistol, I don't use an extra clip. A back up Glock model 21-SF holding 13 rounds should keep the wolves away.

FBI stats tell us that less than 3 rounds are fired in most street confrontations but that is "OLD SCHOOL" nowdays the gang eliment has things going up a bunch. I don't fancy meetin a car-jacker with two buddies whipping out AK's or some other black rifle. Look what happened to the FBI when it grabbed the bull by the horns in Florida. Now 2 bad guys shot the hell out of the police with an assualt rifle caliber .223. We do live in a different world today, especially anyone near a big city. The drugs has gotten way out of hand and thus crime rate is rising rapidly, not to mention all those honest people out of work and some of those are turning to crime etc. I just believe that nowdays, one also must think about "fire-power" and not just how light is the weapon to carry, or how easy can I conceal the weapon on the streets etc.

Those GLOCKS are much cheaper to own and their track record speaks for itself. A Sig Sauer will cost you around the $750 dollars and up on some models. I love the 1911's but lets face facts, very few have double stacked mags. They are heavy for all day carry and the 45acp while being good up close, is lacking in some area's where as the Sig-357 in an auto is not! Also the 10mm Glock in a model 20 or the sub-compact in a model 29, does twice the terminal damage as a 45acp round can do in a geletin block test.

[Just a Hunter]

With the modern transfer bar safety for revolvers there is really no need to leave a empty chamber under the hammer.
There was a time when revolver hammers came with a spur to strike the primers and during that time period the only safe way to carry a revolver as was mentioned above.
Thankfully those days are long past for the modern revolver and have been such for some time.

I agree that we do live in a diffferent world today, and as Hi Ball mentioned crime is on the rise. I live in a city where robberies were once left for that "bad area" of town.
You never had to worry about stopping into a convenience store for gas, or a restaurant for a meal. These days no small business is free from robbery, and what often went on after hours is
now happening in daylight hours.

I respect Hi Balls opinion that
nowdays, one also must think about "fire-power" and not just how light is the weapon to carry, or how easy can I conceal the weapon on the streets etc.
But I disagree with it none the less.

I own a S&W 629 44mag with a 5" barrel, and it is a beautiful pistol indeed. This pistol is likly pictured somewhere with the definition of firepower written beside it.
It's also heavy, large, difficult to carry concealed and a general pain in the ass unless you have a good shoulder holster and a jacket.
Did I mention its powerful?
Yes its powerful enough to shoot through a robber very easilty.
It can shoot through a robber and the wall on the other side of the robber.
It can shoot through the robber, the wall and the lady on the other side of the wall.
It can shoot through the robber, the wall, the lady and into the parking lot
etc etc etc

You really dont need the most powerful pistol you can carry, but you do need to carry something powerful enough to reasonably defend yourself.

In talking about defending yourself with a pistol I might ask what distances your expecting to be shooting.
25-30ft? That sounds about the right distance to plink at the shooting range, but its a bit far for persoanl protection.

A instance of self defense will very likly be at a distance of less than 12ft, and far more likly be at under 8ft.
If your shooting at someone that is over 15ft away you best hope they have a firearms also, less you might find it difficult to prove the lethal force you used was in self defense.

I still stand on the fact that a pistol in which your comfortable wearing is far better than one that your not.
If your pistol is carried to a limited degree because of its size, weight or lack of comfort then it becomes worthless sitting at home.
Even a pocket knife in hand when needed is better than a shotgun sitting at home.

[GF.]

Thanks, JAH - good feedback....

I guess your maximum distance for the justifiable use of force would depend on how fast you could be expected to be able to run, eh?

FWIW, I think it might well be foolish to carry anything more potent than the police generally do- a .38+P, 9mm. .40, .44 Spcl or .45 ACP. Wouldn't a .XXMagnum make it too easy for some prosecutor to paint you as a trigger-happy, Dirty Harry Wannabe? (Ballistically, I'd think the 10mm would be up there among the annihilator rounds, but somehow it just doesn't sound scary.... :rolleyes:

Myself, I'd rather be able to get off several aimed shots in relatively rapid succession. A really persuasive first-shot hit is great, but only if you're up against just one Bad Guy, right?

Anywho..... I've never liked the looks of the hump-backed shrouded hammers, but I guess they're popular as carry pieces for good reason. I guess you only operate those as DA, because I sure can't see letting the hammer down....

Now, am I nuts, or would it be a really good idea to have a plinker that's otherwise identical to your carry gun? I guess that argues for a .22LR conversion kit, though last night I was toying with the idea of a pair of Ruger SP 101s - one in .357 and the other in .327 Federal. You could plink with really light loads in the .32 six-gun and have a pretty broad range of defensive options in the 5-shooter for CCW, home, or even bear country

Either that, or I suppose that's why a lot of guys seem to favor the same basic pistol in a compact for carry and a full-size for range work....

I'd really forgotten about the CZs... I suppose they get overshadowed here by the 1911s, but it looks as if they sure sell a crapload of them to police forces and militaries just about everywhere else..... The 75-B looks about right to me, in the .40, but shedding 10 ounces in the P-01 also seems pretty intelligent... gets the weight down to basically that of the SP 101, but with almost 3X the ammo aboard :eek:

Shouldn't take them long to start making that one in a .40, should it?

[rimrock]

one factor I seldom see mentioned , is that you'll rarely need a gun, but if you need one chances are good the range will be under 15 feet and if you fail to stop an attacker almost instantly your chances of surviving drop rapidly, as the time increases,as your only justified if your opponents armed as well in most cases, your so carrying is a bit like having a fire extinguisher, it sits hopefully unused for decades, but it damn sure better work , instantly if its required too, and if you do you'll need it very badly, by that Im pointing out that once you produce a firearm your in a whole different world legally from just kicking some creep, in the groin or punching him in the nose. once you pull a gun you better be totally justified in killing your opponent, on the spot 100% of the time
and that its always a judgment call, get it right and you save your life and maybe other lives,but get it wrong and you loose your rights and go to jail or get killed.
not all problems are best resolved with a gun, walking away, apologizing even when the other guys totally wrong or a jerk, beats confrontation and legal issues, and having some martial arts skill is a huge plus.
one of my martial arts instructors was at one time attacked and attempted to be robbed, as he got into his car,as he left an ATM, he kicked the guy robbing him in the knee cap, bending it backwards, then stomped on his attackers neck as he tried to retrieve his gun, and only then reached for his gun, and cell phone, luckily all the action was on the atm video and he was in no trouble even though the attacker was seriously injured , and the attacker claimed he was the victim, and the creep claimed my friend attacked him when the cops arrived
if he had taken the time to draw a gun he probably would have gotten shot, but having the gun prevented the creep from reaching for his once he dropped it

[GF.]

You know... Seems like you hear a lot from pro-gun groups about cases in which merely 'producing' a gun was all it took to send the Bad Guys the other way, post haste, but I was always under the impression that the fact that you're packing should be the last thought that ever crosses the perp's mind...

Makes me wonder what percentage of justified shootings result in powder burns to the assailant or on his clothing? Thinking about magazine capacity, sights, a barrel long enough to aim with and aimed follow-up shots is all very interesting in its way, but a knuckleduster (in a more convincing round) with just enough of a grip to make it somewhat controllable might be as good as anything else in a typical street fight... http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20americaine/artisan%20r/reid%20james%20my%20friend-01.jpg

I have to agree with you that your instructor did the right thing, because he used the most readily available weapon at his disposal - lucky for him, he also had the training to make it work...

But that can be a double-edged sword, can't it? Seems to me that your own size, strength and fighting abilities could weigh against you if someone decided to make a case that you had resorted 'prematurely' to deadly force, but thinking rationally (not that a prosecutor ever wants a jury to do this :rolleyes:), no Bad Guy is going to take you on unless he's as certain as he can be that he has the upper hand, and convincingly so. JMO, that means that he is operating on the assumption that he has an 'advantage'. So if he's close to an even match for you, physically, then you'd have to assume that he's armed; if he's armed, he's got to be willing to do you grievous injury; and if he's willing to cut you, shoot you, or beat you with something, then wouldn't you be 'reasonably' in fear for your life?

So why am I thinking that the headlines would never read "Six-foot, five-inch, 215-pound 14-year-old mugger with long rap sheet shot in self-defense by 5'4" 130-pound middle-aged skinny white guy"?

[GF.]

Just remembered that I had meant to pop this one up for you guys...

[Bushman]

I could never warm up top the looks of those concealed hammer Smith's myself. I did just put a big set of grips on my M60 exposed hammer .38 Special S&W and that made it lots more user friendly than it was with those tiny wooden grips. One of the things that I like about a stainless revolver is the color contrast of the darker bore and cylinders looking back at you against the lighter colored stainless. A cylinder full of hollow points or those red tipped Hornady's looking from the business end look good too. That said when I was headed out to a meaner section of the state, the flatness of my Colt Government .380 won out over the .38 Special revolver.

[Just a Hunter]

I dont like the looks of a hammer, but if you need to drive a nail it's design seems to work perfectly.

I owned a exposed hammer smith snubbie that I typically carried in a general purpose holster that could be used in your pocket or inside the waistband.

It seemed to fit my needs well or at least till the day came along when I really needed.

My 4yr old daughter was outside playing to my left when a dog came running up into my yard with its attention on her. This was a large Boxer and I could hear it giving a low growl
as it eyed my daughter from the other side of a island of bushes. When the dog started to move forward I stood up and in a deep , but not loud voice said "Get OUT OF HERE"

The dog looked over in my direction for the first time and a bit startled ran back towards the direction of its owner, then very surprisingly ran back at me growling. I told my daughter to hold very still as I was between her and the dog, and I didnt wish to give the dog reason to take chase. The dog charged my direction only to turn at the last moment and take position to angrily growl at me again. I continued to try and move back towards my daughter and protect her as best as I could. It was at this time the owner of the dog entered my yard as they had been walking the neighborhood previously. I in so many words told her she needed to call her dog out of my yard right now.
She called the dogs name a couple times but the dog gave her no response, but instead continued to try and flank me to my left and in the direction of my daughter.
I told her at least two more times she needed to get her dog out of my yard "Right Now"
Her only reply was "that was what she tried to do" but I dont think she understood the seriousness of what was going on.

The dog continued a few more steps, and I finally had enough and went to arm myself.
I quickly grabbed my pistol and in pulling it out the hammer got hung up.
I jerked it, gave a little twist, put it back into my pocket, and finally pulled it out correctly.

I held the pistol at ready having made up my mind if the dog took even one more step forward I was going to kill it.
The owner finally realized I would gladly remove her dog rather than have it taste my child and the dog responded to the urgency in her voice.

I learned a lesson that day.
If your going to carry concealed do it with a pistol and holster designed for the job.
My humpback revolver's not pretty, but it aims well, hits what you point it at , will fire a cylinder full of rounds without jamming and you wont snag it on anything when you need it.

[Badger]

GF,

It sounds like you need to attend a good handgun class like I run several times a year at my local gun club.

Revolvers are fine for your intended use. I own several Glocks, Colts and Walthers, but a good double action revolver is all you need in Gravest Extreme. As for shots fired per encounter: Fast is fine, BUT accuracy is final! Lots of cops and CCW folks "Spray and Pray" and empty high capacity magazines with no hits for record! Revolvers will do the job. A DA revolver is like a water pistol or cap gun us older folks used as kids. Get a .38 Special or .357 DA revolver with adjustable sights and shoot it a lot. In gravest extreme, retreat as far as possible and then hold center mass.

Badger

[Bushman]

If accuracy is paramount, wouldn't a DA revolver fired single action beat a DA only revolver? I've never been in a situation facing anything meaner than a paper plate, but I can't remember when I have ever fired any of my three DA revolvers without first thumbing back the hammer for a single action trigger pull.

[Sidekick]

There can't be enough said for practice and familiarity. A few years ago I killed a vicious pit bull that came after me in my own yard. I had my old Ruger Single Six 22 mag stuck in my belt after returning from a walk in the woods. When I realized the dog wasn't going to stop I drew and fired and dropped him in his tracks. I was literally dumbfounded at how quickly, accurately and without hesitation I did it. I didn't even think about it or aim. When I decided to shoot it just "happened". Mental conditioning is an amazing thing. I've been out of the service for almost 20 years but if you barged into the room and roared "ROOM TEN HUT!" I'd probably still leap to my feet.

[GF.]

There can't be enough said for practice and familiarity........... I didn't even think about it or aim. When I decided to shoot it just "happened". Mental conditioning is an amazing thing.

Amen, brother! That's why (ideally) I'd want to look at something with a .22LR conversion kit or a plinker-weight twin.... Kinda makes me wonder about how you (safely) practice your quick-draw techniques, though.... Which reminds me...

Bush - I'm sure that it's easier to hit 'fine' with a DA in SA mode, especially at any kind of distance. Because a good trigger is a thing o' beauty. But you don't need an MOA rifle to kill a deer very cleanly at bow range, right? I'm guessing more deer live through each fall because of slow shooting with very accurate rifles than anything else. At one point in my life, I only needed the crosshairs to settle in the right spot for a split second - by the time I realized I was lined up right, the shot was out the barrel. Given the same amount of time to make the shot, I was better on (stationary) clay pigeons at 50 yards with my .22 than at half that distance with a shotgun calling 'Pull!' Quite a lot better, actually, but I've never been what you'd call a red-hot wingshot...

Badger - I did burn riught through a copy of a defensive handgunning book a while back, and I am planning to take a pistol class from a former police officer I know from church. That's a required step on the way to a CCW permit, of course, and up here, you can't take a handgun out of the house without one. And yes, the ranges are required to check your permit when you sign in. They didn't used to, because the guys running the ranges recognized the sheer stupidity of allowing people to own them but not ever practice with them (and of course it was better for business, too), but we've apparently had a crackdown....


Get a .38 Special or .357 DA revolver with adjustable sights and shoot it a lot. In gravest extreme, retreat as far as possible and then hold center mass.

That's what appeals to me about something like the Ruger SP with the not-so-snubby barrel on it; seems like a good compromise all the way around, and it's definitely a defensive piece. Very low on the list of choices for anyone looking for a fight, no? Maybe you'll advise differently, but isn't something along these lines still a relatively popular choice for law enforcement, whether off-duty or for someone like a detective who isn't likely to carry a big ol' duty pistol?

[Badger]

Bushman,

I suggest you fire BOTH SA and DA and use both strong and weak hands in both modes of fire to get a good grounding in handling your guns. Single action is fine for longer shots where accuracy is needed. Up close and personal, use DA and go for center mass, when justified.

Badger