Cartridge selection for elk 30-06 not enough?

[AK-49]

Was visiting another site a while back and the writter is talking about developing a cartridge similar to a 375 Ruger Mag necked down to 338.
Seems like a good idea for a wildcat but is that much power really needed for elk sized game.

Good article on the 375 Ruger see link.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/375ruger_061207/

[snake river rufus]

A 30-06 is still plenty enough gun for any elk that walks. A more powerful round might buy more penetration, if you use a bullet that will hold up. Or be flatter shooting, if you like to shoot from longer ranges.
But if you just like to experiment (read 'play') then yes you need that new rifle.

[30-338]

There is so many good calibers for elk hard to just pick one. Normally I hunt a combination deer/bull elk season may draw late cow hunt just the last few years Co let us hunt deer/ elk in separte seasons if we wanted to hunt deer.

I've never felt the need to use anything heavier than 30 cal for elk or just have a rifle for elk only. Last year was the first year that I hunted elk/deer with a 30-06.

I like the idea of non belt case 375 Ruger only thing I'd want to look at going with 338 cal is can bullet be seated out to take advantage case capacity so getting a long enough action for that would be of a concern to me. I'm shooting Fred Huntington(RCBS)wildcat 30-338mag.

What about the 325WSM

[HUNTS]

I've killed a few elk with the 7mm-08. It works well if you use your head. I also have a 9.3x62mm that I'm hoping to take an elk with.

I bought both of my sons .270 Winchesters. A great elk cartridge in my estimation.

You don't need a cannon to kill an elk. Some common sense, marksmanship, and fitness will get you where you want to be.

[Bushman]

"...fitness will get you where you want to be." You said it right there. Give me a 7# 7mm-08 or .308 back where the elk are instead of a 9.5# .338 WM back at the tent.

[GF.]

I'm a serious hypocrite on this...

I'm kind of a big-bullet fan. I love the idea of the .325 WSM as the Perfect Elk Round. Hefty bullet, good frontal area, entirely useful trajectory for any range where a rangefinder isn't pretty much required anyway, and--reportedly--a relatively shootable level of recoil. Call it a Thinking Man's .338 Win.

But really, does it do anything that my 7-08 or a .270 won't do, given a copper-solid bullet, some decent stalking & shooting skills and a modest amount of common sense in your shot selection?

People love to spout feeps and foot-pounds, but I've done the vast majority of my Elk hunting carrying nothing more any fearsome than a #55 recurve or a .54 roundball shooter.

Precise Placement. Plenty of Penetration. To bank on anything else is foolish.

[Smokey]

I agree with what everyone has said. You do not need a cannon to kill an elk. You have to hit them in the right place. And, you need to be physically fit.

It's only when you hit them wrong that you need a cannon. Not really, hit them wrong with anything and you are in trouble. They are tough and I believe they get tougher with every shot. And, sometimes when you hit them right they still show no reaction.

I had a hunter with me in New Mexico and had an elk walk out in front of us at a distance of 25 yards. He had a 30-06 using 180 gr bullets. First shot through the ribs behind the shoulders, no reaction. Elk still walking hit with a second shot, slight stagger. Third shot really staggered it and it finally fell. This animal never ran or attempted to run. All shots in the ribs and all were pass throughs with
good expansion. This was a good sized bull.

Was the gun too small? I don't think so. I saw five bull elk shot with .338 Win Mags and all fell at the shot. The closest was fifty yards and the furthest around 250. I shot two of them, but that rifle tended to get heavier each year so now I use either a light weight 308 or 30-06. These guns work great and we have yet to loose an elk hit with one of these. Sometimes they run a little when hit - 50 to 60 yards, and other times they just fall.

Its just like everyone has said, use some common sense, hit them right, use a bullet that will penetrate and expand.

[Indy]

Hasn't this topic been beat to death?

The 30-06 will work just fine on elk.

Back in the 1950s a lot of serious hunters used it on Alaska brown bear, and that's before we had very many premium bulleets.

[30-338]

Hasn't this topic been beat to death?

The 30-06 will work just fine on elk.

Back in the 1950s a lot of serious hunters used it on Alaska brown bear, and that's before we had very many premium bulleets.



Myself I like to hear everyone experience with a 30-06. Are be being restricted on what were posting?

[Hi Ball]

Howdy AK-49!..........Well to answer your wondering, I will tell you up front that the Old Soldier is caliber enough for 98% of animals in North America but I somehow believe you already know that fact.

I personally like the .338 Win mag as my bull elk rifle and backup caliber is now a .338/06 (very lightweight, easy to tote up mountains and through dark timber) It will kill any bull within 300 yards with a good bullet and proper placement of said shot. Hey, did you miss my A$$?

Now getting to your .375 neck down to a .338 caliber! Yes, but this must be in a larger heavier gun just to handle the extra recoil and that would be close to 55-lbs or recoil in a 9 pound rifle. Not a great cup of tea when walking up mountains.

I tried it in my younger years twice and opted using something lighter the next year, a .300 Win mag with more reaching out capabilities. The .338 Win mag and .300 Win mag are excellent elk rifles, unless the recoil is a problem and then the 30/06 will do you well with a 180 grain premium bullet. I have seen bulls killed at over 400 yards with this combination more than once.

[Pat Hurley]

I have taken Elk with the following rifles. Three different .300 Winnys, .340 Wby, .338 Lapua, two different .358 STA's. As you can see I prefer the big bullets going fast, hopefully making an exit hole. I hunt with a group of 14 yearly in Colorado, none of us hunts with anything less that the .300 Winny, except one .270 Winchester. This group has hunted for many years on the same mountain range, with many different hunters coming and going over the years. The only tough trailing and tracking jobs we have had were with a variety of chamberings down to .257 Roberts and up to .416 Rigby. Nothing takes the place of a well placed shot, no matter the size and speed of the bullet. Our one .270 shooter is a very seasoned hunter who will not shoot over 200 yards and always gets his Elk, if they are there. Personally I don't worry about loosing meat, I want my Elk on the ground and I will bust both shoulders is possible. More meat is lost by the "cute shots" that didn't turn out, or the perfect shots waited for and never offered, and the animal walked. I can always trim a pound or two of blood shot meat away when necessary. Just my .02's worth. Good shooting.

[Hi Ball]

Pat as usual you and I are on the same road when it comes to elk hunting in Colorado or anyplace else. I want to bring that critter down fast and not have to chase the frigging thing over mountain benches. :rolleyes:

I also don't mind losing a little meat because of busting shoulders or bloodshot meat. I don't want somebody putting their tag on my elk because it wonder off into their shooting range. I also like two holes in the animal, one going in and one exiting the opposite side. I just know that bigger calibers do a better job in making big holes in big game animals.;):)

[Rock Chuck]

I used a 270 on elk most of my adult life and never had one escape. Every one dropped within 100 yds of where I shot it. A few years ago, I went through a mid-life crisis and switched to a 300 WSM (the 325 WSM hadn't come out yet or I'd have got it instead). It's an elk gitter for sure, but so far, it hasn't done anything the 270 didn't do also. Either one will nail an elk as far as I can reliably shoot.

[Rich]

Seems like a good idea for a wildcat but is that much power really needed for elk sized game. http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/375ruger_061207/

A friend of mine told me since he and his buddies have switched to the lighter for caliber Barnes, they have shot thirteen bulls with drop at the shot clear out to 534 yards. He uses a 7RUM and one friend uses a .25-06 and the other fellow a .25-06 AI. Thier bullets weights are 120 for the 7mm and 100 for the .257's. He said there does not seem to be any difference in performace out to 410 yards between the 7mm and the .257's. He bases that on a count to three and shoot at two bulls he ranged at 410 yards. Both dropped at the shots.

Therefore I don't think one needs that much power unless he wants it. I am switching to a .257 Weatherby because of thier experience.

[GF.]

I am switching to a .257 Weatherby because of thier experience.

Just curious.... What do you expect to gain with the extra case capacity of the Wby?

More blast, more recoil, more expensive all around, but what's the difference going to be in the real world?

The faster you launch a bullet, the greater the rate of deceleration due to aerodynamic drag; so not only do you pay a stiff premium for those extra feeps, but you lose them pretty quickly. And if you're shooting long enough to make a flat trajectory important, you oughtta be using a rangefinder anyway, in which case a flat trajectory doesn't matter so much after all....


Leaving aside the question of whether shooting over 300 yards even qualifies as 'hunting' (I can't recall a season out of the last 5 I've hunted in which I couldn't have filled a bull tag with a shot well under 150 yards, and that's assuming a 5-point minimum), don't you 'light-n-fast' guys ever wonder if you aren't taking things to an unhealthy extreme?

[dave-t.]

The other side of that arguement, is what is the down side to 3700+fps, when the controlled expansion bullet will stay together?

A few extra bucks on brass and powder over a 25-06, but no more powder or brass expense than a 300 or 338 mag, and probably a lighter gun, lighter kick, and flatter trajectory to boot.

[Bushman]

Dave, probably the bone breaking ability of a heavier bullet and a larger exit wound.

Maybe if a guy is watching an elk from long range and the elk is not aware that it is being hunted, a guy could wait for a perfect broadside shot presentation. In that situation I think that those .257's would work about as well as anything else. I've only shot a few elk, but they all knew that they were being hunted and took more shooting than any deer that I've ever shot. From what I've seen, an ideal elk diameter bullet is .338 and 210 grains and up be that from a .338-06, a .338 WM or a .340 Wby Mag. My 7mm RM or my friends .300 WM got it done, just not as decisively as another buddy's .338 WM has at the ranges where we have found our elk.

[dave-t.]

I was commenting about the choice between the 25-06 and the 257 wby.

Myself I'd go with my 300winmag and a 180-200grn hornady.

A lot of folks have killed elk with the 6mm-257 cals, but I'd go heavier because I have the 300, and that is right up it's alley. I also don't live in elk country, and wouldn't want to pass on a steep angle or have to wonder if the gun I'm carrying will get it done.

I have put in for NM elk tag this year, and hope I get drawn.

[GF.]

What's the down-side to 3700 feeps?

How long did you want your barrel to last?

And what happens when you get a quick chance at a shoulder in the thicker timber? That kind of velocity could be hell on a lot o' good eats...

Just leaves me wondering what would be the benefit of a 3700 fps 100-grain from a .257 Wby and what, maybe 2800-2900 fps with a factory 120 out of my 7-08?

[dave-t.]

It sounds to me more like they are setting up beanfield rifles for elk hunting, then planning and setting up for taking what could be called extreme distance shots.

I do know that if I was shooting a 3700fps rifle/cartridge and may encounter a close shot, then I would want a copper solid tsx type bullet doing the work.

I'm not doing it myself, but I understand the idea of taking advantage of the available technology to make a very under sized cartridge (old way of thinking) grow up to do some heavy lifting.

I've been toying with the idea of going 165 tsx on top of a 300wm for an elk cartridge, but I have the trajectory of the 180 hornadys at around 2960fps so ingrained that I don't know that going lighter/flatter would be any advantage at all. It would add more guess work out there at distance than what I have used and known for 10+yrs.

I've shot my 300 at targets to 425yrds, have taken deer at 370yrds, and came to the conclusion that I really prefer not to have to hold the crosshairs higher than the top of back on game. I've done it, but for me it was an uneasy feeling, eventhough the shot went great. I don't have intentions to repeat it, but if push came to shove, I'd know where to hold for a shot "out there" with my old standy hornady's.

[Smokey]

I feel there is a lot in the paragraph by Pat Hurley. Most of the rifles they used were 30 caliber. It seems they have had experienced hunters hunting an area they are very familiar with thus able to put them in good positions for accurate shots which is the key to taking elk.

I have shot several elk with the 7x57, 7mm Mag, and .270 without a single problem. I have also seen four people shoot elk with a .243 and none went over 50 yards. Most of these animals were close and unaware of the hunter. I think that makes a difference. Even though these rifles successfully killed the elk, I feel they are borderline.

I have yet to see a rifle knock an elk down like a 338 WM. It does a great job but it is not for everyone. In most cases the rifle is heavy as it should be and it is a lot of money to just have a rifle for elk and it is very overpowered for deer. The 300 WM is also very good but I have still seen people who do not shoot that rifle well.

Overall I believe the 30 caliber rifles - 30-06/308 do a better job on elk than the smaller calibers. These calibers when hitting the elk through the shoulders usually put them on the ground in short order and do it a little better than the smaller calibers. Additionally most people can shoot these rifles fairly well.

[Hi Ball]

Dave-T, we went through the wildcat for elk sometime ago and it worked out just fine for the rifle. Not so fine for the guy shooting the rifle at the bench mind you. All and all, one is much better off with the 30-06 or even the 270 Winchester with proper bullets in the magazine than adding another 25 to 35 pounds of recoil to the upper torso of one's body. :(:rolleyes:

Yep, I put together a real nice Wildcat in the form of a .338/300Ultra Mag, it will send a 225 grain bullet down range at close to 3300fps give or take. It also will clip you in the chin to the tune of some 60+-lbs of recoil using 250 grain bullets. Not an ideal combination for shooting accurately 500 yards or further down range. :(

My problem was keeping my bullets with in a 9 inch pie plate target size (made of butcher paper 48 x 48 inches) in the center of the 4ft target. Shucks!!! I could do it 7 out of 10 times with the .300 Win mag using 190 grain bullet. I also had no problem hitting the target 9 out of 10 times with the 7mm Rem mag but NOT this big Wildcat. It just pounded me to hard from the bench, even with a recoil pad on, I was beginning to get skittish somewhat and that ruins down field accuracy in a heartbeat. Perhaps things would have been a little better, had I not chosen to shoot all those smaller rifles first that day.......don't really know. However, we are not taking the wildcat elk hunting this year for sure. :)

It will be the .338/06 and the .300 Win mag loaded into the truck! Next will be the wife's .338/06 and the 7mm Rem mag for her to shoot. All rifles being model 70 Winchesters thank you Winchester!:)

Yep, lots of energy with one of those wildcat .338 caliber bullets but NOT if you can't put it on the target 8 out of 10 times in my book.

[rimrock]

Ive used a 30/06 and lately a 35 whelen loaded with 250 grain speer bullets on several ELK hunts with good results, if a 30/06 won,t give you enough punch, why not use a bit more bullet weight and diam., either caliber works, but there's usually a bit more reaction when the heavier bullets impact.
its not the caliber as much as the skill of the guy operating the rifle and shot placement that matters.
my partner prefers a 340wby, that rifle and caliber will stomp your shoulder if you don,t hold it correctly, it kills like a lightning bolt, but there's just that nagging fact that both the whelen and that weatherby kill just fine with a single well placed shot , so Id rather carry a rifle that's a bit lighter and one that kicks less.

[Herne]

Kills like a lightning bolt?

Well yes.

But then so does a 270 round in the ribs. ;)

[GF.]

my partner prefers a 340wby, that rifle and caliber will stomp your shoulder if you don,t hold it correctly, it kills like a lightning bolt...

Sometimes yes, sometimes, no, though, right?

I recall a particular Dave Petzal article in which he talked about hitting a good bull smack center-chest with a .340 Wby, and he said the bull never even flinched.

I wonder how often that can be said for the shooters of these big, big, big rounds...????




but there's just that nagging fact that both the whelen and that weatherby kill just fine with a single well placed shot , so Id rather carry a rifle that's a bit lighter and one that kicks less.

Amen, brother!

Long-range shooting doesn't impress me any more.. I just don't get being 'impressed' by a guy who admits that he can't get within a couple hundred yards of an animal with a brain the size of my fist.... :confused::confused::confused::rolleyes::D

[Smokey]

GF, I shot a bull at 30 yards while he was feeding and he just jerked his head up looked around, took two steps and put his head down to feed. The first shot was straight through the ribs [lungs]. I thought I missed the thing. The second shot through the ribs into the opposite shoulder which put him down. This was a while ago and I think I was using 180 gr Silvertips but not sure.

I have seen several elk hit and show no reaction. Usually see the dust come off them when hit. Sometimes they don't realize what happened for a few seconds. When that happens it is best to get a second shot in them in case the first shot is bad. When wounded they seem to become invincible and can go a long way. Their stamina is enormous for lack of a better word when wounded. They are too nice of an animal to get away and go to waste.

The key is to make the first shot count. If in the proper place with the proper bullet they do not go far.

[Smokey]

GF, the rifle I was using was a 300 Win Mag

[Herne]

I have had a similar thing with one of our roe does. 257roberts at about 40 yards, and she just stopped feeding and walked off with the rest of the group out of sight round the edge of a hedge. Found her stone dead.

Very dangerous IMO to equate lethality with shot reaction and or calibre.

All you can do is be sure that a bullet will do enough damage. What the animal does cannot be regulated or assumed.

Quite often the bigger deer show relatively little reaction to shot. I don't think it is toughness, because they all die in the regulation 10 secs.