What am I missing here???

[GF.]

Market hunting extirpated the buffalo and eradicated the passenger pigeon.

It is legal to sell pork.

There are thousands upon thousands of lean, free-range, more or less organic pigs running around out there.

And we have a hog problem throughout much of the US.

:banghead:

OK, so a sow can pump out a lot more piglets than a pigeon could lay eggs or a cow bison could drop calves in a year, but still... Why is nobody hunting these feral piggies for the market?

[Bill Gunn]

It's most likely a lot cheaper to raise pigs in batch pens on hog lots than to hunt them.

It wasn't market hunting in the 1800's that did the bison in....

The sky use to be black with them around Buffalo NY......
until they started killin' 'em in 1964 for the Buffalo Wings at the Anchor Bar.


Just tryin' to keep the record straight.....

[Altjaeger]

Because it is not possible? Feral hogs carry large numbers of disease that would never pass the meat inspectors. Even if it did the means of processing a shot hogs would never would never get past the inspectors either. That does not even factor in the efficiency of harvest compared to producing commercially.

[ncboman]

... all the above reasons are valid but it goes much deeper.

Commercial hog operations are much about control and timing, from birth to slaughter. Wild hogs can't begin to compare in terms of production, let alone harvest, slaughter, gov permits (legal racketeering), and transportation costs.


It wasn't market hunting in the 1800's that did the bison in....

Indians depended on bison like we depend on oil.

I saw a piece on tv stating 3 to 4+ million bison were killed in 18 months following the railroad being established westward. The hides and horns were all that was marketed, more of an afterproduct of the slaughter. The government provided free ammo and other incentives. The land had a massive stench for over three years.

One good genocide deserves another<sarc> ; however,

The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944. (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007043)

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

GF, it is possible to put a huge dent in wild hog populations if you shoot every one you see regardless of range or firearm, trap them, hunt them with dogs, and from helicopters (very expensive meat), and any other way of killing them that you can dream up. A wild sow might have 5 piglets that survive her and their first day. She and 1 or two or three others like her with pigs of more or less the same age may team up and run in a mob until the pigs are grown 100# or so. After all of the above methods have been visited on them they are wild and wily and will spook at 500 yards if something doesn't seem right. The pork they produce is lean (sometimes VERY lean) even with a 1/2 inch layer of acorn fat around the outside of it. If someone started making money off of selling them or their meat there would be little incentive to eradicate them.

Alan

[pepaw]

Thank goodness the meat is good. Lots of folks trap and eat them or give them to friends.
Without that incentive, they would be an even more massive problem.

+1 on the wild and wliy after being hunted. I haven't seen anything but tracks and rooting damage for weeks. And I have been looking.

By the way, I thought 110% of the offspring lived. Seems like it!

pepaw

[GF.]

If someone started making money off of selling them or their meat there would be little incentive to eradicate them.


JMO, one good cash crop is as good as another. Also JMO, feral hogs will be eradicated eventually.... Probably about 3 days after we've killed the last coyote in N. America and have to start shipping 'em up from Mexico ;)

Seriously, though.... No need to eradicate 'em, but a sizable dent could be nice, and I don't know if farming tends to be either 'feast or famine' or if just a few percentage points in profitability could be enough to turn the tide. In my line o' work, I'm fond of saying that it only takes 2-3 people out of a thousand to make me look like a freakin' genius. By analogy, I'd say that if skimming some hogs improves crop yield enough for a guy to harvest enough corn or beans to pay for a gallon and a quarter of fuel while burning a single gallon, then he's going to see the difference at the end of the year...

It's just kinda odd that there could be no way for somebody to turn a problem of that size into a profitable business. I don't buy the argument that you could never sell 'wild-shot' animals for market; it works out well enough in the UK for Herne to have made a living at it, so there must be a viable model over there that we could adopt. If hogs are costing big corporate farms a lot of money, then it shouldn't be too difficult to pass legislation legalizing sale & trade on shot carcasses. And for that matter, what about trapping them and processing through a standard slaughterhouse? Or would ferals 'contaminate' the facility? Again, I think I'd look to the UK model and see how they manage it....

But the economic arguments just seem kinda weak to me; there are no costs of raising the animals, because you don't need to own the land or buy the feed or pay the vet bills to do it; it just comes down to catching the buggers for not too much more than it costs to raise them on a factory farm. Now, that is a pretty cheap & efficient method to have to compete against, but again, we're talking about lean, high-quality, free range, damn near organic meat that I'd wager a lot of people are willing to pay a premium to get their forks into. Distribute it through somebody like Whole Paycheck and you're off to the races. An operator might have to be pretty damn mobile - setting up for a short time here or there and packing up as soon as the hogs wise up enough to make for inefficient trapping - but they seem to be so destructive and so widespread that I just find it hard to imagine that a guy couldn't spread his efforts thin enough to make a living skimming off the dumbest 10% or so of the hog population.

Probably the most problematic aspect is the fact that it's pork, so - since you can't control their food supply the way you would on a hog farm - there'd almost certainly be a requirement to test for trichinosis. Getting a quick, cheap and accurate process for certifying each animal or carcass as 'clean' might be the hardest piece of the puzzle to get in place.


So maybe how 'bout this....?

Instead of telling me it can't be done, tell me how many days and how many animals you can trap in a single location before they get too smart?

How many pounds of corn (or whatever bait you use) do you need for that amount of time, and how much does that run you?

How far apart would you need to set up your trapping stations so as to be working a different bunch of hogs with each set?

And what would be the average weight of these pigs, on-the-hoof?



I'm not ready to move to Texas and set up shop just yet, but I think I'll be down there in April, so maybe I can find somebody who's got some hogs that are dumb enough for a uy like me to get a shot on one ;)

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I understand your wanting quantification but it's like trying to reduce venison to a #s/acre yield. Besides, your average hog hunter can't count high enough to get the numbers you want.

Alan

[Bushman]

Back in the 80's a bunch of us had nothing better to do in February or March than watch WI. fill up with snow, so for a few years running we would drive down to TN. to shoot their pigs. As I understand it, the hunting place that we went to got these pigs for free trapped out of the Smoky Mountains by the government trappers and let them go in their multi-mile fenced in pig area. It was a three day hunt and each pig (or goat or sheep) cost $310. I don't know how that compared to a domestic processed pig, but it was sure a lot more fun than buying a cellophane wrapped package of pork chops. Then too having worked in a packing house, those places are crawling with USDA meat inspectors and by the time all the red tape was done getting something wild to market would be a non-profit operation. Heck even the annual deer processing up here needs a separate cooler and a complete tear down of the equipment going from wild to domestic meat processing.

It does seem a shame that wild pigs can't be ground up like the deer are for the Hunt for the Hungry programs. There is a lot more waste going on in this country than most of us realize. We have some grocery stores around here with big deli departments. If the stuff doesn't get purchased, it goes in the dumpster. What would it take to freeze it and give it to the homeless shelters? They won't do it for liability reasons. Such a waste.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Years ago people were trapping them and sending them up north to hog hunting farms. They were supposedly selling meat to some certain sect of Jews who ate wild pork. If there was a way to make money on the damn things we would be doing it, but feel free to jump in with your business expertise. Maybe you could hire a few Texans to do the dirty work.

Alan

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I seem to remember a study done a while back that found no trichinosis in wild hog populations. I think they found rabies or something like that though. Don't know for sure. It's tough to beat <$1/# GF, and that's what folks can buy pork chops or pork butt for in the store in little serving sized wrapped up portions. I suppose there is a market out there for high priced "organic" wild hog meat, but most of the Organic nuts I know wouldn't touch wild hog meat with your fork. As far as killin em goes, we're not saying it can't be done, we're doing it as fast as we can. At the present the hogs are a tad faster.

Alan

[Altjaeger]

If there was a way to make money on the damn things we would be doing it, but feel free to jump in with your business expertise. Maybe you could hire a few Texans to do the dirty work.

Alan:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[Altjaeger]

Actually some Texan's have found a way to turn a profit from them...the helicopter services. According to the Texas Department of Agriculture an economically effective service in the areas of greatest predation. Also upon reading a bit, it is legal to process them when trapped and transported alive but I doubt a USDA inspector would pass the carcasses. Yes Europe does have a system that works. If anyone thought there was a profit to be made our congressmen would find themselves lobbied to change the laws and USDA regulations to accomodate it. It seems pretty obvious that it must not be a likely profitabe operation.

Texas has shipping restrictions on hogs for commercial shoot and take operations reflecting concerns of domestic hog producers. Internal parasites include roundworms, liver flukes, kidney worms, lung worms and whip worms. Hog diseases they may transport include swine brucellosis, pseudo-rabies, leptospirosis, tuberculosis, tularemia, trichinosis, plague, anthrax, hoof and mouth disease, African swine fever, cholera and swine vesicular disease. What do you think might happen at an USDA inspected commercial food operation?

[GF.]

If anyone thought there was a profit to be made our congressmen would find themselves lobbied to change the laws and USDA regulations to accomodate it. It seems pretty obvious that it must not be a likely profitabe operation.

Yep, and the guy who started up FedEx got a 'B' or a 'C' on the business plan because the Prof said in order to get an 'A', it would have to be at least 'remotely feasible'.....:hmmmm:

But what did I expect from a bunch o' Texans who can't count high enough to tell me how many pounds of feed corn it takes to catch a pound of hog????

[Altjaeger]

But what did I expect from a bunch o' Texans who can't count high enough to tell me how many pounds of feed corn it takes to catch a pound of hog????


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:Oh please, please Mr Bear don't throw me in that briar patch!!! Come on down and show us how it is done.

As to how many pounds of corn it takes to put that pound on a hog there are many variables including genetics, environment (air conditioned house or southern swamp), supplements, parasites etc. But I am sure you have applied that fantabulous Yankee ingenuity to overcome all the laws of animal husbandry as well.

[GF.]

Hey, Alt - don't look at me!


Besides, your average hog hunter can't count high enough to get the numbers you want.

Alan

Not my fault I took Old McDaniel at his word...


:rofl:

But you misunderstood the question, apparently.... I don't care how many pounds of corn it takes to get a pound of pork to grow on a hog; that's what a farmer stands to gain by letting someone come in and trap off the hogs on his land. What I wanna know is how many pounds of corn it takes to get a pound of hog inside of a trap.

On the other hand, though, if the hogs are costing farmers so much yield that they can afford to - or maybe can't afford not to - bring in the piggie Air Cav, that actually should figure into the equation, because the hog trapper ought to be able to charge the farmers a modest fee for his services... as they do already.

Because at the end of the day here, fellas, what you're telling me is that it's less cost effective to trap hogs and sell them as free range, 'designer' pork than it is to trap them and dump the carcasses.

:hmmmm:

How much 'fantabulous Yankee Ingenuity' does it take to make more money (or even lose less of it) selling pork than letting it rot in a hole some place??? Seems to me that the hard part would be figuring out how to not to, there 'Mater ... But maybe that's what Texan Ingenuity is 'good' for..... :laugh:

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Sounds like you're giving out business advice you're not willing to follow. GF, one of the problems I have with discussing much with you is that I don't know anything about you, where you're from, what you do, what your life experiences are. Are you a farmer, rancher, barkeep, coffee shop owner, What? A lot of us guys lay it all out there for you to pick apart and tell us how we're doing it wrong and that we won't tell you how to do it right. Your question about "how many pounds of corn does it take to get a hog into a trap may seem like a feasible question to you but, frankly it's a stupid question to anyone who has ever trapped any hogs. It only takes one kernel of corn to get a hog into a trap, the last one. It might have taken 500# to get him to the trap. So it's a question that doesn't have an answer.

On nearly every post, we say, "we're killing the damn things as fast as we can, any way we can" but you think we aught to start up a business to charge farmers for the service of killing pigs. I'm going to venture a guess that you haven't been talking to too many Texas farmers either. There's some folks making money from hunting hogs but it's not a business and it won't make a living for too many people, but you must think it's a good idea and an untapped resource. All I can say is go for it. God Speed and Good Luck!

Alan

[Bushman]

Heck, lots of us Yankees would come down there just to hunt around in a place where we weren't arse deep in snow. That's what we liked about Tennessee. The locals thought 50 degrees was uncomfortable, but we all thought it was near tropical.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Every County has a County Agent. The County Agent knows all the farmers and ranchers (well most of them). They can put you with names of people who want or would like someone to come kill, trap, maim, destroy, or add hogs to their face book accounts.

Some of them will even charge you for the privilege if it makes you feel better.

Alan