What is Jesus saying?

[Rich]

Someone posted,

"Any verse posted without the previous and subsequent verses, is at best, contextless. At worse, is subject to being mis-interpreted completely. As a couple examples, I'd cite Jesus' words, "Whereever two or more are gathered together in my name, I am there in their midst". Out of context, that verse is often used to prove that Jesus is at every chance encounter between two or more Christians. That isn't what Jesus is saying at all. "

What does Jesus mean?

[Waidmann]

Well, since I'm obviously the "someone" who made the statement on a different thread, I'll prepare a response. However, I'm on the way to work, so it won't be until later this afternoon. I'd like to expand your question a bit as well to include not only what Jesus meant when He said that, but what kind of application does it have today? The last verse posted was the passage from Timothy (I believe) that said that all Scripture was profitable for various things. That suggests that there is a modern profit to having read and studied.

BTW, welcome back and how am I doing being civil? :D

Waidmann

[Waidmann]

OK. I'm back.

Let's look at the section that verse concludes. It's found in Matthew 18, verses 15-20.

15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

In this passage, Jesus is describing procedures within the Church for dealing with a brother's sin. He outlines the proper steps to take before the extremely serious step of excommunication. He's further stating that Church discipline, when properly applied, has heavenly consequenses, since proper church discipline is the same as if Jesus Himself were present passing judgement, since "where two or three have gathered together for the purpose of Church discipline in My name, I am there in their midst ratifying the decision.

As far as a modern application is concerned, I think that the church is far too lenient when it comes to blatent sin. I was part of a church about 25 years ago that actually followed this procedure and excommunicated a member for adultry. Unfortunately, the different local churches don't recognize one another's discipline, so he (and his new girlfried) simple joined another church.

When we pray for the purity of the church, we are praying for a situation in which the church regains the power of disciplining wayward members. About a month ago my familly joined a Prebysterian church. One of the things we promised to do was "submit to the church's discipline". So at least we haven't forgotten the words--just mostly how to apply it.

Anyone else want to chime in?

Waidmann

[Rich]

Waidmann,

Your answer is thoughtful. You may not know it, but I often like your posts. when I used to frequent this site as Ringman, I used to print out your stuff more than anyone else.

If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying we cannot use Jesus' statement to encourage folks to get together to praise or worship?

[Waidmann]

Rich (or Ringman),

I, personally, wouldn't use that quote to illustrate that Jesus was present in the gathering of His people or to encourage folks to gather together. However, there are other Scriptures that I would use to convey that thought. Even though the Matthew passage doesn't refer to a general gathering of Christians, there is plenty of other evidence to make the point.

Waidmann

BTW, I spotted you as Ringman on your second post. Your style is distinctive.

[Glockist]

Anyone else want to chime in?

I'll chime in and just say that I think you nailed it. :)

[Rich]

Waidmann,

Thanks for the explanation.

I switched to my name because using "Ringman" would not allow me to post in the new system. Anyway, my bulletring site crashed and the folks I was paying couldn't retreive the info.