who has double rifle here?

[DUGABOY1]

www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com (DRSS)

I'm one of the fure founding members of the DRSS and have owned, and hunted with double rifle since the age of 21 when I bought my first one back in 1958. I post on several forums pertaining mostly to African hunting and big bore, and double rifles.

I was just woundering of anyone here has, and hunts with double rifles, and/ or hunts dangerous game!

.................................................. Mac :itsme:

[DUGABOY1]

Well, I guess the responce answered my question!

This website was once full of double rifle folks, who hunted Africa on a frequent basis! I haven't been he in some time but I used to post on Hunt America everyday, but for some reason it simply faded away. I just happened onto the new sight when my old link wouldn't work. It seems just like me all the old regulars have jumped ship! That is too bad because this used to be a place where a lot of knowledge was available in one place. This new format may fix that shortcoming, I hope so!
Anyway hello guys, I'm sorry about just starting posting with out introducing my self but i didn't realize the place was peopled by a whole new crew!
Well, I'm Mac , I'm 73 yrs old, and have been hunting on my own since I was six years old, and with my father, and grand father since before I can remember. I got my first rifle at age six, a mod 67 Winchester .22 lr single shot, and since have hunted most of the western part of the USA, and Canada,and three other contenents, for just about everything from titmouse to cape Buffalo an hippo.
I've always been enamoured with double barreled firearms, especially double rifles, and shotguns, and I bought my first double rifle at age 21 in 1958, and have owned about 35 others over the years, and hunted with all of them except that first one because ammo was not available for it till after I had already sold it! NE cartridges were as scarce as hens teeth in the 1950s.
Again hello to all the guys here who I don't know, an to those that might still be around like ole Swamp!

[LeeInSC]

I had a H&H sxs .375 H&H that I bought for a steal at an auction. Broken bones in a car wreck cancelled my hunt in Tanzania, so I traded it for a collection of rifles, then traded some of those, ending up with a square bridge Mauser in .375 H&H. Going to buy a bad weather .375 H&H in Remington 700 XCR II, and maybe a .375 Ruger. In anything larger, I will be looking for something like a Merkel in .450-400.

Closest thing I own now is a combo gun in 16 GA and 8x57JR with claw mount and Leupold compact Vari-X III.
I would love to find a nice 9.3x74R.
Several friends have doubles, from Purdey, H&H, WR, and Thomas Bland, from .303 Brit to .470 NE.
So I get to shoot those, and I may pick up one from some older hunters who have seen their last safari, and own a raft of guns.

[DUGABOY1]

HI Lee I had begun to think I was the only one awake! I also have some combo guns but mine are cape guns (side by side) and one of them is also a 16ga/8X57JR. It is a H. Barella made in Berlin in 1933. It was chambered for the short 16ga and choked extra tight so that there was a problem with loading the shot shells, and even then you had to let a dove get 50yds out before the pattern was big enough to hit anything. I opened the chamber to 2 3/4" shells, and opened the choke to modified. That fixed the shot barrel making it a real dove/quail getter, for rising or pass shooting. The rifle barrel being chambered for the 8X57JR (.318 bore) made brass, and bullets very hard to come by in 1965. I finally found a big batch of brass, and bullets both Norma brand when an old sporting goods store went out of busuiness, and sold out their stock. Luckily there was some rare componants there so I was in business, only a year after buying the cape gun. With the mods made to it, it is a fine hunting gun for a lot of the west where Muledeer, elk,black bear,blue quail, and turkey seasons overlap. The little cape gun will place a 196 gr bullet right on the poa @100 yds, and the shot barrel will place a Brenneke slug right beside the rifle also at 100 yds every time. I have another cape gun that is a 58 Berdan on the right barrel, and a 20 gs shot barrel on the left. It is a V. Haffner and is an old black powder gun with damascus barrels. Everything for this one must be made by hand but it is a fun old gun to hunt with!
On the double rifles I have several with the largest being a 470NE , and the smallest being a 9.3X74R, of which I have two, one an Over Under, and the other a side by side. IMO the 9.3X74R double rifle is a perfect double for anything you'd want to hunt in North America.
.........................More later duty calls!

[Bushman]

I've never seen one on the range around here. A friend of mine told me that his dad made a jump shooting double barrel for deer in .30-30 out of a 28 gauge shotgun. Shimming those barrel inserts so that they hit close to one another I understand was quite a trial. How close together do commercial doubles shoot to point of aim? All that hand fitting is probably why they are so outlandishly expensive.

[DUGABOY1]

I've never seen one on the range around here. A friend of mine told me that his dad made a jump shooting double barrel for deer in .30-30 out of a 28 gauge shotgun. Shimming those barrel inserts so that they hit close to one another I understand was quite a trial. How close together do commercial doubles shoot to point of aim? All that hand fitting is probably why they are so outlandishly expensive.


Bushman, a short-barreled 30-30 double rifle is one of the best woods rifles a person can own. Of course they must be properly made, and regulated. Many have tried the barrel inserts route with mixed results, usually abandoned in frustration. This is because most folks do not understand how a double rifle is supposed to work, and try to solder the barrels exactly paralell, and that is not correct. This is because even the so-called gun rag experts don’t understand them either. That fact doesn’t, however, hinder them form printing this misinformation in their articles as gospel. I will give you a better explanation later. The process is a little complicated but I think you will gain a great deal form it.

[LeeInSC]

Krieghoff makes a full-length rifle barrel insert for some of their shotguns and combo guns, which screw into the choke tubes, and have an adjustment to regulate the rifle barrel to the sights. Once it is regulated, it can be removed and replaced, and apparently returns to zero.

Dugaboy,
The Remington 8x57JS ammunition has a bullet which is about .320 inches, so it is not too tight for the .318 bore and not too loose for the .323 bores. I have some dies and a few bullets for my combo gun. After those run out, I am going to reload these 170-gr Remington bullets. They work fine in my 1888 Commission rifle. In fact, I may just pull the bullets from some, and dump in the powder from the factory loads into my 8x57JR cases, as it is a mild load, to see how well they shoot. But I have a few 8x57JS rifles anyway, which also like this Remington ammo.

[DUGABOY1]

Dugaboy,
The Remington 8x57JS ammunition has a bullet which is about .320 inches, so it is not too tight for the .318 bore and not too loose for the .323 bores. I have some dies and a few bullets for my combo gun. After those run out, I am going to reload these 170-gr Remington bullets. They work fine in my 1888 Commission rifle. In fact, I may just pull the bullets from some, and dump in the powder from the factory loads into my 8x57JR cases, as it is a mild load, to see how well they shoot. But I have a few 8x57JS rifles anyway, which also like this Remington ammo.

The .320 dia would work as long as the bore is actually .318. This being German rifle I would bet the bore is exactly .318. The 170 gr
bullet is fairly light for this cartridge, as most in the JR cartridge used 196 gr or 22o gr bullets. Mine is for the 196 gr. With the 170 gr bullet used in the Mauser case the powder charge might be alright. My cape gun has a very thin barrel and my load for the 196 gr bullet is less than the load for the 170 mauser load and shoots to the sights. Let me know how this works for you! I have about 500 .318 norma bullets, and 100 new unprimed Norma brass, and 100 once fired Sellier &Bellot cases. so I'm set! I might mention that the SELLIER & BELLOT factory ammo shoots ver well in my rifle. The 8X57JR is a fun cartridge, and is a moose, black bear, deer and elk killer delux.

[LeeInSC]

I found some of that S&B ammo today, for $21.00 a box.
I think I will order a couple of boxes.

S&B V331762U 8X57 JR 196 SP 20/20
$20.72
Product Number : 61938
Caliber : 8x57 JRS
Bullet Type : Soft Point
Bullet Weight : 196 GR
Muzzle Energy : 2361 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity : 2329 fps

[swamp]

I don't have one but if someone has a merkel dbl rifle in 470 NE that is collecting dust then i'd give it a loving home...

[LeeInSC]

Dugaboy,
What do you think of the Over-Under double rifles vs the Side by Side?
I think that on dangerous bame, the with ejectors would be quicker to reload.
But in the smaller ( 9.3x74R and down), the over unders are less expensive, and easier to mount a telescopic sight.

[DUGABOY1]

Dugaboy,
What do you think of the Over-Under double rifles vs the Side by Side?
I think that on dangerous bame, the with ejectors would be quicker to reload.
But in the smaller ( 9.3x74R and down), the over unders are less expensive, and easier to mount a telescopic sight.

Leeinsc, any double rifle of a proper chambering is better than a bolt rifle where dangerous game is concerned, IMO!

Having said that, my choice between the two types is always the Side-by-side double rifle where dangerous game is concerned. This is a personal choice on my part, but one backed by certain facts that makes one better than the other for that purpose.

A well-made and balanced double that fits its owner will handle one as well as the other, so in that respect, they are both equal. There are
some things that make a double rifle as dependable as one can be made, and if both have the same features then there is only a couple of things that makes the S/S a better choice, again in my personal opinion.

First let me make it clear that a double rifle that is to be used for hunting of dangerous game is going to be used in a close in fight. That fact is true because no game is dangerous unless he is close. If you shoot elephant, or Cape buffalo from 150 yds, there is simply no danger involved unless you make a bad shot, wound, and let him get into the weeds where he must be followed up and sorted out. For this reason I will not hunt dangerous game with a double rifle that is not chambered for a "flanged" cartridge above the 9.3X74R. The reason is that rimless, and belted rimless cartridges are not the best choice for this type of rifle.

Another thing is the rifle has to have two triggers because a double rifle needs to be TWO COMPLETELY INDIPENDANT SINGLE SHOT RIFLES ON THE SAME STOCK! What I mean by that is if anything happens to put one side out of service it must not affect the other side at all. One side can go OTS, and you are still left with a working single shot. If anything fails that both sides depend on to make them work then you are left with a 10-pound club to finish the fight with. The single trigger is one such item.

Having a scope or not is a personal choice, but one that requires a little conscious thought. The scope on a double rifle is not the same as on a single barreled rifle. On a bolt rifle say, the scope is the primary sight, and the rifle is carried with the scope attached while hunting, and only removed for special purposes. On a double rifle however, the scope is the secondary sighting system, with the rifle being carried while hunting with the scope removed. The scope is only attached when it is needed for a specially purpose! Understand we are talking about hunting dangerous game here. The time you need to rid the rifle of a scope is when you have to go into the weeds with something like an elephant. The reason for this is that if you get a charge from an ele it will be at very close range, and you may not have a clear shot till he is very close, and high above you. In that situation, if you are to stop him it will be with a brain shot, a shot that is extremely complex and will be your last chance. Miss that brain, and Katy barred the door, you’re in big trouble. A scope at 6 or 8 yds will give you noting but a scope full of gray wrinkled skin because an elephant’s head is a very large target with only one 8" target to hit and it isn't marked with a bull’s eye. Iron sights are the ticket here. The scope in quality Quick detach rings & bases are a must on any rifle that is used for hunting dangerous game whether it is a double or single barreled rifle. The iron sights should be filed in so they are workable when needed. It is no harder to mount a scope on a double rifle whether it is O/U, or S/S. either of them will be expensive.

Now, we come to the difference in the two double rifles that effect a very quick re-load after shots one, and two, that doesn't stop the animal. This is just as important whether the animal is running away, or charging you. Most game like ele cape buffalo, and lion seldom are taken with the first shot, and cape buffalo in particular can give you a real work out dumping empties, and re-loading ammo till he is down or out of sight. The O/U rifle must be opened much wider than the S/S for the re-load of three, and four, and subsequent re-loads. Add to that the fact that the O/U is almost impossible to re-load both barrels simultaneously, but is quite easy with the S/S. With practice one can get quick with either type, but the S/S will always be quicker. Another thing that is common with O/U doubles is they are designed to fire the bottom barrel first, and the triggers are not selective in most cases. IMO, this takes away on very good thing and that is carrying the rifle with a soft in one barrel, and a solid in the other, and being able to choose which you want to fire first. This would be a drawback with a S/S as well if it were fitted with a single non-selective trigger.

The next thing is the automatic safety. This is not a problem if hunting deer, but is a definite no-no on a rifle used for large dangerous game. I've never seen the need for an auto-safety! It makes no more sense on a double than it would on a bolt rifle. I don't think anyone would buy a bolt rifle that had an auto-safety that put the rifle back on "SAFE" every time the bolt was worked to install the next round in the chamber. One example of the effect of an auto-safety being dangerous to the shooter is when he breaks the rifle to re-load one or both chambers when the first or first two shots didn't get the job done. If in the heat of battle, he forgets the safety being set back on safe, this could cost him his life. At the Hoot & Shoot down in Houston, Texas last year, I was shooting a double rifle with an auto safety that I had not disabled. This was a timed four shot string on a 6" target at 25 yds. The time started when you fired the first shot, and stopped when you fired the fourth shot. The possible score was only 40 points if all shots hit the 2" 10 ring on that little target. I shot the four shots in four seconds flat, with a score of 36 of the possible 40 points, all well place combat shots, but I forgot the safety, and tried to pull the trigger on shot three with the safety "ON”. If I had been shooting a double with a manual safety, I could possibly shaved at least one second off that time, and if this had not been on a paper target but on a charging lion, that extra second may have cost me my life.

On the question of extractors or ejectors, that is mostly a personal choice. But there are some very good reasons for both sides of this debate. If one hunts lots of elephant, then I would rather have extractors. The reason for this is the sound of shots up close on an elephant doesn't seem to pinpoint your position, but any metallic sound will pinpoint you immediately. In the thick bush where there are others in the herd, but can't be seen, it isn't the one you just shot but the one you can't see like an Askari bull that comes to the defense of the downed bull that you need to worry about. The "PING" of those two cases pinging off into the bush will mark you position for that Askari. The double with extractors can be re-loaded just about as fast, and much quieter. Without taking you eyes off the ele, simply raise the barrels skyward and the flanged cartridge cases will simply slide out of the chambers and drop at your feet. Also the rifle closed much easier and quieter, because the rifle doesn't have to re-cock the ejector springs on closing with it's attendant "CLICK"!

If you ask most double rifle fans that will tell you they don't want a double rifle that is made on a Mono-block system, yet that same guy thinks nothing of buying an O/U double rifle which are all made on mono-block systems. IMO, there is nothing wrong with the Mono-block system of barrel sets, and I consider it one of the strongest ways to join barrels. The Mono-block system is one of the reasons O/Us are cheaper to buy that most S/Ss. If you will peruse the catalogs you will notice a full 90 % of the Over under double rifle are in chamberings for the 9.3X74R or smaller. The reason for this is very few will but the O/U to hunt dangerous game, so even the makers that do chamber their O/Us for large NE chamberings, tend to not make them till they are ordered, because the market for large bore O/U s is not very large. Most O/Us are chambered for deer cartridges, and most are used in the deer woods of Europe. On seldom sees an O/U double rifle in Africa.

Even though the O/Us are much cheaper to buy in most cases, if you want one in, say 470NE, then you will spend about as much for the O/U as you will for one of the off the shelf S/Ss in the same chambering. So if you simply want a deer, or so-called plains game double rifle than if the O/U floats your canoe, then lay your money down, and paddle on down stream, but my recommendation is if you will hunt any dangerous game, then the S/S would be my pick. Even in a double rifle used for nothing but deer I would still not recommend a double rifle chambered for any rimless, or belted rimless cartridge. They are slow to reload, and the extractor/ejector systems are fail prone.

...................................This is a long-winded post to simply tell you I believe the S/S double rifle is a superior system over the O/U double rifle.

[LeeInSC]

Dubaboy,
Thanks for that long post, as you covered all the pros and cons.

I grew up shooting SxS shotguns and still most use them, so I know how much less of an angle you have to break them to load both barrels. With a large cartridge like a .470, it would be the same as a 20-gauge shotgun.

Most of my really old shotguns just have extractors, and the spent hull can be just brushed and shaken from the chambers with the right hand on its way to the loops on my left breast pocket, or by my left hand if it is already holding two fresh cartridges. These ejector shotguns practically fall open on their own, even though their actions are very tight.

That's a good point about the metallic ping of ejectors letting your prey locate you as their prey. That's what I don't like about a lot of bolt action rifles today with three-position safeties. Many of them snap from the middle position to the Firing position. To someone shooting at deer 200 yards away with all the time in the world, it is not a problem. Inside 50 yards, it is too loud. Give me something as quiet as the safety on a British .303 Enfield. My favorite stalking rifles have the two position safeties, like my old Remington 700s, old Mannlichers, Steyr M, Sig Sauer, and Tikka.