Experts: Pa.'s deer population is out of control

[venado]

Phillidelphia Enquirer: (http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_science/daily/20100327_Experts__Pa__s_deer_population_is_out_of_ control.html)
March 27, 2010


Wildlife experts and other scientists say Pennsylvania's deer population is out of control.
Not only are deer starving by the thousands, they're laying waste to forest ecosystems.
There may be as many as 1.5 million whitetails roaming not just the forests of northern counties, but also places like Fairmount Park, Valley Forge National Historical Park, and the grounds of Graterford Prison


Must be someone writing this article that lives in Texas.:cool1:

[Gil Martin]

Interesting article. I am not sure why the following quote is significant. ..."The most dangerous wild animal in Pennsylvania has caused 60 deaths and nearly 4,400 serious injuries during the last seven years;..." if you take the total of anything for the last seven years you end up with a big number. Look at the defense budget or Medicare sending over the last seven years and you overstate the situation.

Citing "...Fairmount Park, Valley Forge National Historical Park, and the grounds of Graterford Prison" is a bit misleading. Of course there are high deer numbers (and lots of squirrels) at these places which are in urban areas and closed to hunting. If you take your rifle or shotgun onto Graterford Prison property and get caught, we will not see you or your firearm for a long time. There are also a lot of animals in the Philadelphia Zoo which is not far away.

The deer situation in the urban areas does not reflect the current reality across Pennsylvania. All the best...
Gil

[Altjaeger]

Gil, what other wild animal in the state of Pennsylvania or any other one state has killed 60 people and injured 4,400 animals in a seven year span? What other state have whitetails caused those kinds of casualty rates in?

[Joe Boleo]

I am certain that deer and car crashes occur in many states in the populated Northeast such as New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut among others. Take care...
Joe

[Laturkeyhtr]

Nothing really new here, just an author under a deadline to produce another article for the paper.

It will be interesting see how the USP proves that the PGC has mismanaged the deer herd and taken too may does. Being the ones that have the "burden of proof", they have to prove it has been done wrong. We all know they seem to have trouble with science and that is what it is going to take to prove their point. :)

[Renegade]

It seems to me this author has done some speed reading to quickly put this article together. He is playing catch up on the issue, it's like he's taking info from 8 or 9 years ago and mixing it with current info. such as saying we have 1.5 million deer yet. We did back in 2002 or 2003, but not anymore. He also seems to exaggerate on the damage as well. However, being from a philly source, it's not surprising that he's somewhat clueless about the rest of the state.

[Altjaeger]

I am certain that deer and car crashes occur in many states in the populated Northeast such as New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut among others. Take care...
Joe

They happen in Texas and mosy other states but I doubt many if any exceed that record.

[GF.]

2005 data from sate farm Ins. puts PA number one...
http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/04/news/newsmakers/deer/index.htm

It'd be interesting to see the per capita rates, though...

Oh, wait one...

http://www.statefarm.com/_pdf/collision_likelihood_09.pdf

http://www.statefarm.com/_pdf/deer_map_increase.pdf

[venado]

Thanks GF for the excellent links. The data speaks for itself.

Renegade, based on the most recent information from the PGC, you are correct and that is why I tongue in cheek suggested that the writer must be from Texas since Badger is always claiming us non-Pennsylvanians are wrong about what is going on in PA...:biggrin:

[Badger]

Venado,

Where do you get your facts about PA deer? Let's see, you allege "there may be 1.5 million deer in PA." Ok, do the math: The state is 45,333 square miles, so we now have 33.08 deer per square mile. We have 450 square miles of inland waters, 12 million people with houses and malls and cities and airports, etc., so how many deer are there in areas where deer can reside, 50, 60, 80PSM?

I drove for 4 hours from Tioga County to Lancaster County on March 12, 2010 and did not see one deer! IF there are 1.5 million deer in PA, what did you do with them? LOL! Our forests have not regenerated because the woodlands are 4.4 Ph due to acid rain. IF the deer "Destroyed" our forests, why did the herd do very well Pre-Alt and we had a hunting heritage. As for dead "Starved Deer", what counties are involved? SPECIFICALLY where did deer "Starve by the thousands?" Help us out, Answer Man! LOL! WHEN did you ever look for deer in PA? You are an "Expert on PA" for sure. How much did you pay for that dufus newspaper deer article? It was not cheap enough! LOL!

Badger

[Badger]

Venado, (And ALL other non-residents of PA),

WHY don't you drive the roads hereabouts for 4 or 5 hours (Perhaps for the FIRST Time) and THEN determine IF "PA's Deer Population Is Out Of Control?" You should have been here over the Winter and then seen NO deer tracks in the snow along the roads. That may have been too logical for you LONG-RANGE PA EXPERTS, since you read about "all them PA deers." LOL! I suggest you put that newspaper article to better use in your outhouse at the ranch.

What else do you PRETEND to know about? Truck on! LOL!

Badger

[Altjaeger]

Venado, (And ALL other non-residents of PA),

WHY don't you drive the roads hereabouts for 4 or 5 hours (Perhaps for the FIRST Time) and THEN determine IF "PA's Deer Population Is Out Of Control?" . "I drove 4 hours from Tioga County to Lancaster om March 12, 2010 and did not see one deer.

Badger

I think I am beginning to see the problem!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[venado]

Alt, I was encouraged by Badger's repitition of:


NO deer tracks in the snow


Those guys that kill deer every year in PA probably do not hunt where there are no tracks in the snow. Could it be that they really are far more intelligent than those that continue to hunt where there are no deer?
:evil:

[Altjaeger]

I notice despite dozens of opportunities he has never addressed that those furinners in Texas get their information from Pennsylvanians preferring simply to talk about what they do not know. Further he never has presented a case of what he knows they do not or why he is the one more qualified to tell us about it than they are.

[southtexas]

Venado, (And ALL other non-residents of PA),

WHY don't you drive the roads hereabouts for 4 or 5 hours (Perhaps for the FIRST Time) and THEN determine IF "PA's Deer Population Is Out Of Control?" You should have been here over the Winter and then seen NO deer tracks in the snow along the roads. That may have been too logical for you LONG-RANGE PA EXPERTS, since you read about "all them PA deers." LOL! I suggest you put that newspaper article to better use in your outhouse at the ranch.

What else do you PRETEND to know about? Truck on! LOL!

Badger

Hmmmm....must not be any deer in Texas either. I drove 5 hours thru the state this weekend and never saw a deer. Didn't realiize that I had just completed a scientific deer survey.

[Renegade]

Badger, you tried that 'ol deer are evenly distributed theory before and no one bought it. However the only person saying there still is 1.5 million deer is the misguided author, not Venado.

I think the problem your having though is looking for deer along highways. Since the reduction that's not so productive anymore. I went for a ride over to camp on Sunday, 22 minutes, 19 miles, seen 2 deer. Were they the last ones? The snow is now gone, but when it was here I seen tracks galore. Was I hallucinating?

What is it that folks from Texas don't know about PA, that you do? Would it similar to the things I know about my area.... where you have never set foot at either? The only thing living here gives you the advantage of is emotion. They (Texans or any 4riners) have access to the same data that we do, and data trumps emotion and opinion every time.

"Our forests have not regenerated because the woodlands are 4.4 Ph due to acid rain."
Besides that being such a wild statement to which you have no proof to back up, how do you explain all the growth and regeneration when exclosure fences are erected???? Same rain falls on both sides!!!

[kjjm4]

Venado, (And ALL other non-residents of PA),

WHY don't you drive the roads hereabouts for 4 or 5 hours (Perhaps for the FIRST Time) and THEN determine IF "PA's Deer Population Is Out Of Control?" You should have been here over the Winter and then seen NO deer tracks in the snow along the roads. That may have been too logical for you LONG-RANGE PA EXPERTS, since you read about "all them PA deers." LOL! I suggest you put that newspaper article to better use in your outhouse at the ranch.

What else do you PRETEND to know about? Truck on! LOL!

Badger

I do it all the time. Perhaps next time I go for a drive I'll take pictures. On a typical drive from my house to my parents in the evening after work, I see 20 or 30 deer. It's about 15 miles. In point of fact, I hit one with my truck last time I visited mom and dad. The drive is all back roads through farm country. There are definitely parts of the state where there are WAY too many deer, I live in one of them.

Just because there aren't many deer where you're looking doesn't mean there are none at all. You've got to be smarter than that.

[Renegade]

Badger – I got to thinking about how anyone could buy into slinsky’s claim that PA’s forests are too acidic to grow trees. If you look at the trees that we’re mainly talking about, it’s oaks for it’s mast value. Here’s what the USDA has to say about tree growth characteristics. But feel free to check other valid tree information sites.
You should note that the last tree, Red Maple, which is browsed by deer, has taken over the number one spot for stocking of trees in PA. In other words, there is now more of them than oaks, yet it doesn’t tolerate acidic soils as well as oaks do. Hmmmm
Chestnut Oak
Shade Tolerance- Intermediate
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 800
pH, Minimum- 4.5
Growth Rate- Slow

Northern Red Oak
Shade Tolerance- Intermediate
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 800
pH, Minimum- 4.3
Growth Rate- Moderate

Pin Oak
Shade Tolerance- Intolerant
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 800
pH, Minimum- 4.5
Growth Rate- Rapid

Scarlet Oak
Shade Tolerance- Intolerant
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 800
pH, Minimum- 4.5
Growth Rate- Rapid

White Oak
Shade Tolerance- Intermediate
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 800
pH, Minimum- 4.5
Growth Rate- Slow

American Beech
Shade Tolerance- Tolerant
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 800
pH, Minimum- 4.1
Growth Rate- Slow

Sugar Maple
Shade Tolerance- Tolerant
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 700
pH, Minimum- 3.7
Growth Rate- Slow

Red Maple
Shade Tolerance- Intermediate
Planting Density per Acre, Maximum- 1200
pH, Minimum- 4.7
Growth Rate- Rapid

source: USDA NRCS Plant database http://plants.usda.gov/checklist.html

[Badger]

Venado,

What about my QUESTIONS?

You quote an "Expert" who, among other things mentions "Thousands of starved deer in Pennsylvania."

Ok, WHICH Counties in PA "Suffered Thousands of starved deer?" Please list the Counties and EXACT LOCATIONS of the starved deer you STEPPED OVER!

You constantly post nonsense and REFUSE to give ANY Pennsylvania credibility. What ARE YOUR PENNSYLVANIA CREDITENTUALS?????? You really are a shallow fellow. Keep posting your PA BJBS for other Texans, they know less than you about PA, and yes that is abundantly clear by their PA posts. LOL!

Do you Texans discuss deer in Texas, or do you ALL "Project" your "knowledge" ONLY onto Pennsylvania? What is your FIXATION on PENNSYLVANIA? How LITTLE do you know about PA? Have ANY of you "experts" ever been to Pennsylvania? HOW LITTLE do you, VENADO, about PA? Please tell the "Unwashed" what you know! Be well.

We have far more PUBLIC land in PA that Texas ever dreamed about. We do NOT have the "deer leases" your unwashed endure to hunt Texas deer. You may denigrate the USP, BUT you should wish Texas has a USP so your deer hunting was fairer than presently configured! Get a Life, or come to Pennsylvania and GET REAL! Texas should learn from PA. FIRST, you need to get smart and then get your head out of your butt! I have been to Texas and that is WHY I left and returned to Pennsylvania. LOL!

Badger

[Badger]

Renegade,

Do you have a CLUE as to which trees were on the ground when the FIRST Pilgrims landed in PA?

The PA forests were coniferous. Let me educate you, the CLIMAX forest in PA were softwoods! NOW, PGC and DCNR want to plant and harvest hardwoods! Both are having a hard time of it and the DEER are to BLAME! Duh?

IF you stop taking DUMB Pills, do some reasearch and see we are forcing hardwoods onto ground that NEVER supported hardwoods! PH and other numb nuts logic escape you. WHY not blame Jim Slinsky for this as well! LOL!

Badger

[Altjaeger]

Yep, Venado you quit quoting all those knowledgable Pennsylvanians including some of those who post is disagreement with Badger. He still has not addressed that issue and never will... because he can't intelligently. He is too busy trying to repaint and transform his fellow Pennsylvanians who tell uncomfortable truths as being Texans.

[Altjaeger]

Renegade

IF you stop taking DUMB Pills... PH and other numb nuts logic escape you.

Badger

ROFL, and to think you wanted to bar me once upon a time when I called you a Twit!!!:stupid::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[Altjaeger]

Renegade,
The PA forests were coniferous. Let me educate you, the CLIMAX forest in PA were softwoods! NOW, PGC and DCNR want to plant and harvest hardwoods! Both are having a hard time of it and the DEER are to BLAME! Duh?

Badger

Perhaps you should spend a little time with a good biologist and let them explain to you why mature coniferous forests tend to be biological deserts.:alberteinstein:

[venado]

My my, Badger is getting a bit testy now.:stoned: I suppose that comes from slowly, albeit finally realizing that almost anyone anywhere knows more about PA deer than he does. Do you suppose he really doesn't live in PA and is just an interloper that can't read since there is so much published information available about PA by actual residents of PA:questionmark:

Alt, "twit" is an extremely harsh word to use on an obtuse individual and may not be in the PC manual for cordial internet discourse. You simply must clean up your act if you are to properly address Badger. My first thought was that the "R" word would fit better, but on second thought it seems it too has recently fallen into the PC lexicon of evil. As a third thought, "twit" sounds better all of the time.:cool1:

[Renegade]

Badger, why is it that when you anti management, naysayer types get refuted with facts that you always, always want to take it to the gutter with your name calling. I suspect it's a coping mechanism to deal with not being able to refute others comments with nothing but emotion and personal opinions. That and a lack of understanding of the big picture.

Though you did impress me by knowing that when Columbus landed it was not in an oak/hickory forest that it is now. That being said, we aren't in Plymouth anymore Toto! Fast forward thru time and you'll find that man (which includes hunters) has forever altered many things on the surface of the earth. We cut those white pines which were abundant and shipped them oversees; changing the climax community of that era, which btw, contained hardwoods as well. There was however a stipulation in the 1681 Charter of Rights that when clearing ground, care be taken to leave one acre of trees for every five acres cleared, especially to preserve oak and mulberries for silk and shipping.
This allowed the great American Chestnuts to prosper (a hardwood) in 1801 which then became our number one food source that allowed a deer herd to flourish. Something it didn't do prior to man's meddling. It also provide man with a valuable wood source just as the white pine forest had a century before.
They lasted 100-150 years till the blight moved in, another human introduced change. Meanwhile market hunting had taken place and reduced the herd to nothing. That, combined with the massive logging / deforestation (changing that climax community again) allowed the next forest succession to become predominately oak, as it was recently. At the same time the PGC was created and hunting was regulated to preserve wildlife from near extinction as it was in the prior century.

So the point you should have grasp from that little bit of forest history is that back in the pilgrim days there were few deer (little mast), the next forest succession provided the Chestnut and much mast, allowing deer to increase. Once they were gone the oaks took over as the number one producer of mast to feed the deer and other managed wildlife (bear, turkey, grouse). If we don't have the oaks there is no species to take the place of providing mast in large quantities. So the less food you have, the less deer can be supported! It's basically as simple as that. No food, no wildlife!

Now may I suggest some college courses in forestry to help with your knowledge of the interaction, the undeniable link, between the forest and wildlife. Also maybe a trip to the PA Lumber Museum to see some of those hardwoods that you think didn't exist over a century ago. Or you could simply DO some research instead of just talking about it.

[Badger]

Venado,

You opened this thread with an "Experts:Pa deer population is out of control." Ok, WHERE are those "Thousands of starving deer in PA?" Please give us the county and EXACT location.

The LOCAL News and PA Outdoor News did NOT cover this item, so we must defer to YOU, OUR TEXAS EXPERT on PA. Where did your "Expert" find "All these starved PA deer?" This is the third time I asked you for precise PA deer information predicated on YOUR opening post. Please give us the requested information you are SO well prepared to give. If not, then we have merely TEXAS BJBS which you have in ABUNDANT AMOUNTS! LOL! Gotcha TWIT! Your Pennsylvania credibility is akin to your TEXAS BJBS!

That is PRESUPPOSING you are a Texan since you may merely be another ILLEGAL claiming to be a Texan. How many ILLEGALS you got down there? Just join in and no one will ever suspect you! LOL.

One more thing: About "the thousands of PA starving deer", HOW many did you step over or see? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A PA DEER? Were you this side of the Border at the time? Perhaps you need to post more FIRST HAND PA articles since you have a "DISTANT VIEW" that you NEED to vent. Take your meds!

Badger

[Renegade]

Boy that's some gull there. Asking someone over and over to provide supporting evidence or facts, but yet he ignores that same request when it's ask of him.:hmmmm2::dontknow::thumpdown:

[Altjaeger]

I think the only place that Venado lacks credibility is with Badger...but thats not really true. I think Badger knows, but does not want to admit the truth preferring to live on the falsehoods of an imaginary world. We won't discuss whatever scraps of creditability the outsize weasel has.

In the meantime it is funny to watch our recent graduate of the Seminary calling people names that he once wanted to ban others fom using!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[pepaw]

Wasn't his number.

Phillidelphia Enquirer:
March 27, 2010

Wildlife experts and other scientists say Pennsylvania's deer population is out of control.
Not only are deer starving by the thousands, they're laying waste to forest ecosystems.
There may be as many as 1.5 million whitetails roaming not just the forests of northern counties, but also places like Fairmount Park, Valley Forge National Historical Park, and the grounds of Graterford Prison

pepaw

[Altjaeger]

Thanks pepaw.:smile:

[Altjaeger]

Thanks pepaw.:smile:

In its entirety.

Experts: Pa.'s deer population is out of control
By William Ecenbarger

For The Inquirer

The most dangerous wild animal in Pennsylvania has caused 60 deaths and nearly 4,400 serious injuries during the last seven years; it also carries an often debilitating and sometimes fatal disease.

The same menacing creature is ruining crops, destroying valuable timber, stripping the woods of seedlings, changing the very nature of forests, killing nursery stock, and ravaging the lawns, gardens and golf courses of suburban Pennsylvania.

It's not the bobcat, the black bear, wild boar, or rattlesnake. It's Odocoileus virginianus. The white-tailed deer. The Official State Animal. Bambi.

Wildlife experts and other scientists say Pennsylvania's deer population is out of control.

Not only are deer starving by the thousands, they're laying waste to forest ecosystems.

There may be as many as 1.5 million whitetails roaming not just the forests of northern counties, but also places like Fairmount Park, Valley Forge National Historical Park, and the grounds of Graterford Prison.

In New Jersey, there is an overpopulation of deer in suburban areas, but it's not as bad as in Pennsylvania.

In the history of American wildlife, which is marked by terrible excesses against the buffalo and the eagle, the white-tailed deer is a notable success story. Though they were nearly extinct in Pennsylvania and the rest of the United States in 1900, there are more deer here today than there were when European colonization began.

Much of this is due to the "sacred doe syndrome" - the idea that the best way to ensure a plentiful deer herd is not to hunt female deer. This idea still runs strong among Pennsylvania sportsmen, who have been known to obtain doe-hunting permits and burn them so no one else can use them.

But in 2002 the Pennsylvania Game Commission decided a new approach was needed to bring the deer population into balance with nature. The agency adopted rules designed to increase the number of does killed by hunters. The strategy was called "quality deer management," and while some hunters embrace it, it is violently opposed by others.

This battle has come to be known as "Deer Wars" - and the stakes are enormous for Pennsylvania's economy, highway safety, forests, other wildlife, and the deer themselves.

State Farm Insurance says there are only two other states, West Virginia and Michigan, where drivers are more likely to hit deer. The average property-damage cost of deer-vehicle collisions, which rises every year, is now about $3,000. Last year's carnage in Pennsylvania was five human deaths and 677 serious injuries in about 2,900 accidents.

As a deer-slayer in Pennsylvania, the motor vehicle is second only to the rifle. There are about 40,000 documented deer highway deaths in Pennsylvania every year, but these do not account for animals that are fatally wounded and die elsewhere. Bob Frye, author of the definitive 2006 book Deer Wars: Science, Tradition and the Battle Over Managing Whitetails in Pennsylvania, says the annual carnage may reach 100,000. Hunters, by comparison, take about 300,000 a year.

New Jersey reports there are about 6,000 car-deer crashes a year involving 350 to 400 injuries. There have been no deaths since 2006. The figures for the first half of 2009 are 2,934 crashes, 130 injuries.

With no predators left other than man, deer can multiply beyond Malthus' wildest dreams. Does reach sexual maturity in one year and can produce twins and triplets. In a single year, each ravenous deer can consume one ton of "browse" - leaves, twigs, seedlings, and shoots that are critical to forest regeneration.

Foresters warn that Pennsylvania's mature woodlands are fast approaching the end of their life cycles and are in dire straits. A U.S. Forest Service inventory indicates that half of the harvested trees in Pennsylvania are not being regenerated.

Walter Carson, a University of Pittsburgh biologist who has been studying the impact of uncontrolled deer populations, says deer have collapsed the diversity of Pennsylvania's forests. "The only surviving plants are shade-tolerant and are either unpalatable to deer or able to regrow quickly after browsing," he says. "It's a real tragedy that continues even though the science is no longer in question."

Increasingly, Pennsylvania woodlands are being taken over by plants unappetizing to deer. Carson's research shows that the hay-scented fern, which once covered only 3 percent of the forest floor, now takes up one third of the forested area of Pennsylvania.

In addition to habitat damage, the state Agriculture Department says deer are causing $90 million a year in crop losses and $73 million annually in destroyed commercial timber. The average Pennsylvania nursery suffers $20,000 in deer damage per year.

Deer also carry the ticks that transmit Lyme disease, an infectious affliction that causes headache, fever, fatigue, and depression and, if untreated, can lead to more severe problems and even death.

According to the Pinchot Institute for Conservation in Washington, Pennsylvania is ahead of most other states in dealing with the problem and "one of the few states with a written deer-management plan that includes goals related to habitat and health of deer, and actual measures of vegetation to inform deer-management decisions."

Nevertheless, as the agency responsible for controlling the size of the deer herd, the game commission finds itself under fire from two sides.

A group of hunters under the banner Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania has filed a suit in Commonwealth Court seeking to block all doe hunting, claiming the commission has mishandled the deer-management program.

The organization argues that the commission has used faulty data in allocating doe licenses and has diminished the deer herd to dangerously low levels. The group claims the major reason for forest destruction is acid rain from power plants, not an excess of deer.

The game commission released figures this week showing that hunters killed 308,000 deer during the 2009-10 season, the least since 1986-87. Stephen Mohr, president of the United Sportsmen and a former commission member, said the figures prove the deer-management program is "so fatally flawed it's just not going to be acceptable any longer."

Not all sportsmen agree. Jim Seitz, a veteran hunter and former president of the Pennsylvania Deer Association, says the Unified Sportsmen speak for a minority of Pennsylvania hunters. "These guys want to walk 50 yards into the woods on opening day, shoot the first deer they see, and walk back out. That's not real hunting."

The game commission also finds itself the target of strong criticism from the scientific community, which claims the agency is doing too little to reduce the deer herd.

Perhaps the most common complaint is that the agency is politically incapable of independent wildlife management because it receives most of its funding from fees for hunting licenses. The critics recommend that general taxes be diverted to the commission and that nonhunters be named members of the agency.

"The Pennsylvania Game Commission is dysfunctional," says Pitt's Carson. "I think they understand the serious deleterious consequences of too many deer to biodiversity, but they refuse to stand up against a vocal group of hunters."

[venado]

The LOCAL News and PA Outdoor News did NOT cover this item, so we must defer to YOU, OUR TEXAS EXPERT on PA.

It appears that we now have Badger's source of information spelled out in that quote. Since intelligent (key word) people know that the PA Outdoor News comes from Minnesota (yeah, Minnesota...!), Badger's lack of knowledge about PA becomes easier to understand.

Apparently Badger also has difficulty with these new fangled internet things called hyperlinks (which I provided) or he would know where the "Experts: Pa.'s deer population is out of control" came from. Nice of pepaw to print it out for Badger so that he can see that it was not the pen of a Texan but of the author of the article or of his editor (they often write the heading). If someone has specific questions regarding the article, it would be logical for an intelligent (key word again..!) person to ask the author, not the poster in this case. It seems that Badger really has his beef with PA residents that have the audacity to write things that he disagrees with.

(I'll bet that he secretly appreciates me providing him PA info from a source not in Minnesota.):captain:

[Renegade]

It would seem that Badger feels the Pa Outdoor News is a legitimate source for the pulse of reality, so I find it interesting to view some of their polls. Like last 2 weeks poll that ask:
"Do you put much faith in the results of the deer audit?"
Yes (135 Votes, 69%)
No (61 Votes, 31%) (as of a day or 2 before it ended)

or the current poll that asks:
"According to the Pennsylvania Game Commission, hunters killed 308,920 deer in the most recent deer seasons. Do you believe the agency’s estimates are accurate?"
Yes (59 Votes, 69%)
No (27 Votes, 31%)
http://www.paoutdoornews.com/

Disclaimer: I don't put as much faith in the Outdoor Times as Badger, but it is what it is.

On another note, I see that the PUS oops, I mean the USP's lawyer for their first 2 lawsuits against sportsmen has been sanctioned for filing too many frivolous lawsuits. Imagine that!
A federal magistrate issued a $10,000 sanction on Harrisburg attorney and former auditor general Don Bailey in a 56-page opinion accusing him of having a lengthy record of filing frivolous lawsuits.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/04/federal_magistrate_issues_1000.html

[venado]

frivolous lawsuits


Seems that the USP, their supporters and their lawyers all suffer from the same malady of the mind.

[southtexas]

well, their lawyers, at least, are probably making money...

[bainpa]

As a hunter in Pa The PA-GC has reduced our deer numbers staggering low so low they won.t even displace the number of the heard size in the great state of P.A Check renegades page

Renegade is a great disputing writer but has very few up to date facts ? of PA S heard size .Why we passed out a staggering amount of doe tags in 2010 -2011 when less than what % was taken

This kind of writing's is why most of the hunters in pa don,t even comment to these people its all bs check

http://www.pabucks.com/deer-hunting-forum/viewtopic.php?p=46479#46479

[Altjaeger]

Huh? Let us know when you know how to string a sentence. That is absolutely incomprehensible.

[venado]

Good link bainpa. Thank you. Bodenhorn did a great job in trying to coherently reply to almost incomprehensible questions which made his point that the perpetual complainers have no interest in facts and are totally controlled by emotion.

[Renegade]

Well I see another fan club member has found me. And you guys have hit the nail on the head. He is very hard to follow sometimes because his comments revolve around his emotions instead of fact or logic.
Bain, my facts are as up to date as I have. And I believe I've corrected you several times when you used ficticious numbers, even though the actual numbers were readily available on the net. What in particular might you be referring to? And don't forget this thread is old to begin with.
And no, I don't have the current size of PA's deer herd, do you? It doesn't much matter to me because I'm capable of "hunting" for those deer. I don't need someone to tell me a number, I simply get out and scout for sign to tell me if there are few or many deer in a particular area.

[Badger]

venado,

Please go to www.acsl-pa.org, at top mid bar click on Video Presentations, drop down 4 lines to Herd Mismanagement and watch all 8 parts of John Eveland's presentation. After viewing, you may need to rething your "knowledge" about Pennsylvania deer. I understand John Eveland will testify for USP at the hearing February 28, 2011. Will you testify against Eveland? Happy New Year.

Badger

[Renegade]

The guy won't be testifying because he isn't even listed as one of their "experts". He was never deposed either.

[Badger]

Renegade,

So WHAT is your point? Will you rebut his video? If not, WHY NOT? We are WAITING for your PA deer management smarts! Was WMI "unbiased"? WHERE did Dr. Eveland err? What is your area of PA deer expertise? Where was Eveland WRONG on the PGC deer decimation program? What are your credentials on deer management? Why should we take you serious? There are less PA deer than the country could carry. Please present your PA Deer Credentials other than your prior BJBS. In a nutshell, JUST what can you say to rebut Dr. John Eveland?



Badger

[Renegade]

Are my credentials really important?

[Badger]

Renegade,

YES, Your Credintials are IMPORTANT because I suspect you are a Pennsylvania Game Commission MOLE! Please CLEARLY point out WHICH points John Eveland made that were NOT ACCURATE? You did view the video, right? In all your verbiage, you did not point out ONE false statemenht by Eveland. Want to try for JUST ONE?

Discuss with me your terms and I will discuss with you anything. Where did John Eveland err in his video? If you have NO SPECIFICS, then I suspect you are a PGC "MOLE" with NO rebuttal to John Eveland and the deer continue to suffer in Pennsylvania. The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania have a court date with the PGC on February 28, 2011. Will you be there? What can the PGC defend?
Again, fellow, show US were Eveland was WRONG????? Deer hunting gets worse year-by-year. Spare me your nonsense; "Youse guys just don't know where to look." Hey, if there are NO deer tracks in the snow, where are the deer? John Eveland spelled it out. If you do not concur, then please give us your insight? We are WAITING???? BUT Specifically show us ALL where Eveland was wrong in his VIDEO? We AWAIT your SPECIFICS?

Badger

[Renegade]

Good, I'm so glad you feel that having credentials are very important and that is precisely my point. As I've pointed out on the other thread and as many have pointed out on several hunting message boards, the credentials this guy claims to have are false. Credentials set the stage for any comments, advice, stories, directions, etc that are forthcoming from that individuals. And when credentials are in question, so are that persons claims. But when those credentials have been shown to be false by several sources and by several different peoples attempts, there is little need to go further. Why follow a twisted tale when you know the story teller is a BS'er and a flat out liar?

Now I realize in your quest for someone or something somewhere to give any kind of support to the misguided claims of the darkside, that you'll grasp at anything that seems even remotely like it may get you some inkling of validation. However, those of us who need some logic and factual honesty can't just overlook the glaring omission of this guys legitimacy.

Just what is a PGC "mole"? Generally a mole infiltrates an enemy camp to gather intel to use to destroy or defeat his enemy.
It's funny how you naysayers and anti wildlife management types are so predictable in your comments. Whenever a sportsman/hunter doesn't agree with you then you call them a PGC employee, an employee family member, or a friend of the family. While that is pretty broad and covers a pile of people, it makes you guys seem so silly and child like. It just urk's you guys to no end to find out your aligned among so few. Just like the usp does, they claim to be 60k, 80k, even 100k strong, but when forced under oath to give an actual number it's really only 2.5k. That's sad really.

As for refuting Evelands claims, see the other thread you started.

[venado]

Thank you Renegade for having the details at hand on Eveland that Badger was so ill prepared to deal with. I can only imagine how thrilled he must have been when he assumed he finally had someone with as he loves to consider "credentials" that supported his position. He was so thrilled he again let his emotions get a jump on his common sense. Down here we call someone like that a "mullet" .......... and that isn't a complimentary handle.