25-06 Remington

[swamp]

I was thinking of getting a rifle chambered in 243 Win but now wonder if I should move up to a 25-06 Rem

[Altjaeger]

If primarily deer and varmits as a minior role I would go with the .30-06. If varmits and occassionally deer then the .243 Win/6mm Remington.

[Sidekick]

I've always been a .270 fan. It's great for deer and shooting coyotes at longer ranges on windy days. There is no question in my mind that I would choose a 25/06 over a .243 every day of the week.

[Twanger]

Swamp - is this for deer only, or a variety of beasts?
I'm both attracted and troubled over the 25-06.
Seems like a waste of powder, but then again, you only live once, so shoot what makes ya' happy!
The quarter-bore I have a real hankering for is a 257 WBY.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I'm sure there is someone, somewhere that doesn't like it, but I have never heard anyone say they were sorry the got a 25-06. With a good 100 gr. bullet it will kill any deer on the planet. If tweaked, it will shoot 1/2 inch groups (or less) all day and is easy on the shoulder. I only have two myself.

Alan

[swamp]

long range deer sized big game, pronghorn etc and coyote rifle

120 grain bullet at 3100 fps... is that typical for a 25-06

what is a typical max grain wt bullet and mv for a 243 load ...

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Swamp I never used anything but 100 gr bullets in my 25-06, although I did load some 87s (?) one time and still have a few. My father and Grandfather both used 100s in theirs too. I have no idea what my MV is because I don't care. I load the most accurate load and shoot that. Any reloading manual or Ammo company literature will give you the MV of their particular ammo. Long range? Is 425 steps long enough? Find somebody up there who has one and ask to shoot theirs. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

Alan

[LeeInSC]

I don't own a .25-06, but I hunt with a few close friends who do.
I shoot a .250 Savage and some .257 Roberts. They don't own any of those.
Here is my take on it:

The .25-06 is a magnum. A 24-inch barrel makes the most sense on it.
If your main big game rifle is a magnum, like a 7mm Rem Mag or a .300 Win Mag, then the .25-06 will give you comparable trajectories with 120-gr bullets. It is a better coyote bullet in cross winds at long range than a lighter bullet from the .243.

If you are going to be taking deer or pronghorn at over 300 yards, it makes sense.
Then again, so does the .270, with a 130-gr bullet at the same velocity.

If you are going to shoot 100-gr bullets, you might just as well shoot the .243 or the .257 Roberts, in a smaller package with less noise and recoil.

If most of your deer hunting is inside 250 yards, get the .257 Roberts in a smaller rifle, and shoot the 115-gr Nosler or 117-gr Hornady and Sierra bullets. That said, one of my hunting partners uses a .25-06 in a stainless A-Bolt II with a 22-inch barrel for wet days. He handloads it on the mild side, and has found outstanding accuracy with the 120-gr Partition at about the same velocity I would get from a hot load in my .257 Roberts.

[Sidekick]

If you handload, the 25/06 can be a lot of things. I've never liked the .243 and always considered it marginal for deer. I've seen too many people have trouble with it. But that's just my opinion and what the heck do I know about anything?

[sharpshooter94]

Regarding to the two rounds you mentioned I would pick the 25-06. the .243 would be my pick for deer inside 150 yards but much farther than that it loses its "charm." Almost anything you pick will work well on coyotes, as long as they are used in their respective areas. (e.g. don't use a 17 rem fireball in a 50 mph crosswind on a 400 yard shot!:wink:) If you reload, as stated earlier, the 25-06 can be whatever you want it to be.

[swamp]

i dont have a reloading manual handy at the moment... can anyone look up BC info on 100 grain or similar 243 bullets and 120 grain or similar 257 bullets

[Altjaeger]

My old Speer manual shows BCs of .385 for a 6mm 90 grain and .443 for a 105 grain. Their .257 caliber 120 grain flat base is .410 and their boattail is .435. Hornady shows .357 for their 6mm 100 grain and .388 for the 120 grain .257 caliber.

[GF.]

So a 105 grain 6mm is the sleekest of the bunch? I would've thought that the quarterbore would hold a decisive advantage.... A 6mm must be the bee's knees for coyotes .... And probably quite a bit more, if the bullets are as good as they can be these days....

[dave-t.]

A .243 is getting 100grn @3000-3050 fps or so, some handloaders say 3200fps, but some of those guys are crazy about shoveling as much powder in as will fit in the case. Realistic factory speeds would be closer to 100grn at 2900-3000fps.

If you handload, the 25's will outshine a 6mm.

The advantage of the 6mm's for varmints is the new 55 & 60 grn varmint bullets, that turns a .243 into a .220 swift. 3800fps with highly frangible bullets.

If it is a dual purpose rifle, lean toward the heavy side to 'cya' on big game.

Until you get below 70grn (6mm)& 75grn (25's) bullet wt, the 25's have it all over the 6mm's in every category, imo. Even comparing equally with the 100grn bullets, it will take a lot of distance for the 6mm's to catch up to the 25's when both loaded to their max potential.

I wouldn't really count on BC's and SD's until you see what the particular rifle likes to shoot, and at what speeds it will shoot them.

[swamp]

what the section density of a 100 gr 243 bullet and that of a 120 grain 257 bullet

[dave-t.]

Depends on bullet, but for a nosler partition-
6mm- 100grn SD .242, BC .384
.257 - 120grn SD .260, BC .391

Hornady interlock spbt
6mm-100grn SD .242, BC .405
.257 -117grn SD .253, BC .391

After doing some looking though, the flattest trajectory to 500yrds for either round is still on the lighter end of the bullet weight spectrum. The BC effect with heavier bullets still hasn't caught up at 500yds.

.243- http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/243_winchester.html

.25-06- http://www.cpcartridge.com/25-06B.htm

Factory loads 25-06- http://community.gunsandammo.com/ballistics-table?ammo=undefined&diameter=undefined

Only three .243 loads hit 1000lbs of energy at 400yds, with the 25-06 the majority of loads meet 1000lbs at 400yds, and 3 loads still retain over 1000lbs at 500yrds.

[Altjaeger]

Just to throw in a few more:

Speer

6mm 105 grain SD .254 BC .443
.257 120 .258 .435

Nosler

Partition

6mm 100 grain SD .242 BC .384
.257 120 grain SD .260 BC .391

Balistic Tip

6mm 95 grain SD .230 BC .379
.257 115 grain .249 453

[strut64]

LEE, I have owned and use 25-06 for a lot of shooting. In fact I have used it since 1971. It is a very good caliber. but If I owned a 243 already I would not invest in a 25-06. There is very little difference in trajectory and performance on game is very similar. If I were to upgrade in terms of power and performance it would be to something like a 270 Win or bigger. Good luck

[pepaw]

After studying the ballistics and recoil charts, I have to agree. I was surprised because I thought the '06 should be head shoulders above. I have hunted with both and felt more prepared with the 117 Core-lokts for deer than with my .243 and 100's. But it was mostly in my mind. Perfect opportunity to own two guns however! Get a .243 with 80's and a .270 with 130's.

pepaw

[sharpshooter94]

The only thing that matters is your mind(within reason guys). If you have doubts about your ability to make a kill shot with a .243 than most likely you will not make a good shot. The most important thing is for you to be completely confident in your gun's ability to take down your game.

[Gil Martin]

Both good cartridges. When I could not decide, I got a .243 and a 25-06. All the best...
Gil

[Craig]

I was thinking of getting a rifle chambered in 243 Win but now wonder if I should move up to a 25-06 Rem

You should get one of each! They're both great. Similar in concept, the 25/06 is based on a necked down 30/06 case and a .243 is based on a necked down .308 case. Anyone who says the .243 isn't adequate for deer is talking out of his backside; I have seen elk and moose killed cleanly with the .243winchester. If it were me, I'd get a 25/06 with a long heavy barrel for hunting from a stand and I'd get a .243 with a short light barrel for hunting on foot.

[Just a Hunter]

I have seen elk and moose killed cleanly with the .243winchester.

Yes, and I have been called to assist in tracking more than a few deer which were hit by a .243 also.

I agree shot placement is the key factor in taking any game effectively, but I must admit several of these deer appeared to have near perfect shot placement.
I say near perfect as deer unlike a paper target will move and at times you have to take the best shot offered.

In a perfect world the .243 would work perfectly and there would be no reason to put up with the heavier recoil of larger more powerful cartridges.
The truth is there is little that happens as you wish when you enter the woods, and your not likly to get the perfect shot at the perfect distance while shooting from the perfect rest.
Your much better to stack the odd's in your favor if things dont go perfectly and be thankful if they do.

The only reason I would hunt game larger than deer with the .243 would be if I did not have the choice of using anything else at the time.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Anyone who says the .243 isn't adequate for deer is talking out of his backside; I have seen elk and moose killed cleanly with the .243winchester.


Adequate doesn't mean suitable. I've killed a truck load of deer with a 222 Rem. That is not to say that I would suggest to others that they don't know what they are talking about if they say the 222 Rem. is not an Adequate deer round. There are better choices. Like JAH, I have decided that the "Hands Down Winner" in deer wounding is the 243. I have tracked a lot of deer to their last drop of blood and had to glass for buzzards for the rest of the week due to the 243. Once it got so bad that I told my best friend that he couldn't hunt any more if he brought his 243. The next time he came he had a 270 and never looked back. I'll bet I could kill lots of deer very cleanly and efficiently with a 243, but I would bet anyone else could.

Alan

[Sabre]

I don't get the deer killing controversy over the .243 at all. I've been shooting deer with a 243 since 1985 and have yet to lose a single one. I wouldn't give a nickle for the difference in effectiveness between the 243 and 270 on deer and I've seen a ****load killed with both. Any difference between the 243 and 25-06 is more in the mind of the shooter than in reality.

[Just a Hunter]

Sabre,

I doubt you would get much of a arguement in regards to the .243 as a deer cartridge.
You may get a few that would say it would be there minimum choice of a deer cartridge, but the vast majority will agree it is more than capable with the correct bullet.
I have come to the conclusion that many of the negative opinions of the .243 are largely based on the wrong bullet choice for the game it was intended to be used on.
The .243 makes a excellent varmint to deer cartridge, but the bullet's that may work so well on smaller game may not be designed to work equally as well on mid sized game.

There is a controversy that may have gone without your notice as it started on the below link.
There are those that are so enamored with the .243 that they feel it works equally well on everything from groundhogs to moose.
You will find this link in the Elk section labled "The 243-quite posibly the-best elk round ever invented"
http://huntamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?2646-The-243-quite-posibly-the-best-elk-round-ever-invented..

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I doubt you would get much of a arguement in regards to the .243 as a deer cartridge.
You may get a few that would say it would be there minimum choice of a deer cartridge, but the vast majority will agree it is more than capable with the correct bullet.
I have come to the conclusion that many of the negative opinions of the .243 are largely based on the wrong bullet choice for the game it was intended to be used on.
The .243 makes a excellent varmint to deer cartridge, but the bullet's that may work so well on smaller game may not be designed to work equally as well on mid sized game.

There's the rub. The hunter is standing in WalMart on Friday evening on his way to the woods and says "Gimme a box of bullets for 243". Neither he nor the clerk knows or cares that V-Max stands for something other than deer hunting. Next day I spend most of the day looking for a deer that isn't going to die that day in that county. That's the problem I have with the 243. Of course now that there are ballistic tip bullets for sale at WM wounding deer can be done with most any round.

Sabre, I thought you were a 30-30 man?

Alan

[Sabre]

Sabre, I thought you were a 30-30 man?
Alan

Yep, I do like my .30-30 and use it frequently. I also own and am very fond of a Tikka M595 chambered in .243 . I switch back and forth between the two depending on where and/or how I'll be hunting on a particular day.

[GF.]

Just a guess, but I don't expect Sabre is using the wrong bullet for the job.... :p

So here’s what it boils down to on that .243, IMO….. Pure probability. Name one other common deer cartridge which is easy to find loaded with varmint bullets. A lot of guys buy what’s cheap, or whatever is left on the shelf come the weekend before the opener, and even if they bought a cheap, 100-grain ‘deer’ bullet, there are not a lot of common deer cartridges that shoot close to or over 3,000 fps. So even if the construction is the same as the 140-150 grainers that get fed into .260s, 7-08s and .308s, the physics of the impact are going to be in a whole different league.

Nobody in his right mind expects a cheap 150-grain cup & core bullet to hold up under .300Mag stresses, but how different is that from an 80-grain from a .243?

Push a lightly-constructed bullet that hard, and sooner or later, bad things will happen; but since you can’t push most deer bullets to 3000 fps, you don’t have those things happening nearly so often with any other round. And even when they do happen to the bigger slugs, a half of a 150-grain bullet is worth almost every last bit of a 80-grain super-premium.

What I find kind of interesting, though, is that a 130-grain bullet from a .270 would seem to have many of the same liabilities as the .243 rounds, yet you don’t hear nearly so many tales of woe from .270 shooters, even though they’re often using those same, cheap cup & core jobs. Makes me wonder if there isn’t some critical tipping point in there, perhaps because of some geometric function related to bore diameter and the structural integrity of the projectile…

[dave-t.]

I think sheer mass plays a part. Even if the bullet breaks up into tiny pieces, there is still around twice as much material flying around inside the animal.

On the flip side, I know a guy that hunted for 20yrs with a Rem 760 in 6mm rem that intentionally chose 80grn bullets for deer. He was and still is a hell of a shot though, and shot most of his animals head/high neck at ranges that I wouldn't have even considered. This was in wide open farm country where shots could be long, and you generally had time to plan your shot and get a good rest. I only recall two out of many kills that were body heart/lung shots.

I don't know if he used that combo for head/neck shots because he had bullet failures on body shots but spectacular drops with the head/neck shots, or if he was taught that shot as and up and comer. Either way, after 12+yrs of hunting with him, I never remember anyone tracking any of his deer.

[GF.]

Sure it does - half of a 180-grainer is worth most .243 rounds, so if your bullet snaps in half, you just shot it twice with a .243, right?

OK, a little tongue in cheek... But - and Herne's all over the math on these things - basically, the stiffness of a tube goes up geometrically as you increase the diameter, which is why good-quality bicycles use large-diameter, thin-walled tubing. So as you increase mass and bore size, I'd expect that bullets get 'tougher' more quickly than a guy might expect as you move up the scale....

Nobody much doubts a .30 cal.
Nobody much doubts a .270.
Nobody really questions the 7mms.
Europeans kill moose with 6.5 Swedes.
I've never heard anybody condemn the quarterbores as 'wounding machines'.
But you drop to 6mm/.243 and all hell suddenly breaks loose.

Sure, bullet design can be critical (like my love-to-hate relationship with Ballisti-Bombs), but for standard cup & core loads, dropping that last hundredth or so of an inch from .257 to .243 seems to make a hell of a lot bigger difference than it seems like it ought to... And of course, comparing the .243 to the .25-'06, you're also able to tack on another 20 or so grains o' payload, so now you've improved SD as well as your sheer mass.

If I were more of a long-shooting kind o' guy, I'd be happy to own and hunt deer with either, but with the .243 I'd be a lot quicker to shell out extra for super-premium bullets. Thing is, for the hunting I do, neither is a great choice because the impact velocities are going to be at magnum levels, and you just don't need - or want - a 3000+ fps load to shoot 20 yards..

[Sabre]

Where the hell people come up wrth this stuff I'll never understand. Put an 85 GR.+ .243" bullet where it belongs and you've got a dead deer within 75 yrds. 99 % of the time and that's the end of the story. 257 " {or .277"} bullets make NO DIFFERENCE except in the minds of theorists and internet keyboard jockeys. Bullet breakup/ premature surface fragmentation is mostly bullschitt propagated in magazines and on the internet and VERY, VERY, VERY RARELY happens in real life, even with .224" bullets. I've killed enough deer with 50-55 gr .224" bullets at 3000 fps+ impact speeds to know this is ABSOLUTE FACT !