Synthetic decking to replace existing wood. What product?

[Twanger]

We have a 512 square foot deck on the back of the house that I built in 1993 and the surface decking is so bad that it really must be replaced.
The structure of the deck is fine. In good shape with no rot at all.
The joists are on 16-inch centers and I used 2X6 planks at 45-degrees for the decking.
I'd like to do something similar with synthetic, but understand that this joist spacing is pretty big for some of the less expensive synthetics, and certainly a problem if laid at a 45-degree angle.

One thought is to double-up on the joists so I can go with a 5/4" synthetic decking, but that seems like a ton of trouble.

Any thoughts on how to proceed? I really don't want to go with wood again, and am willing to spend the $ for the right solution.

[ncboman]

am willing to spend the $ for the right solution.

:cool1:

Are your existing 2x6's attached with nails or screws? :hmmmm:

Almost completed a hi-end patio/porch addition including a long boardwalk and boat dock using syn t&g and I'm very impressed with it. This is NOT cheap but is the best deck flooring I've seen yet. Haven't got pics yet but I will soon.

The diagonal pattern you mention has me keeping mum until I do some more checking. I'm very busy so bear with me and I'll get back to this.

[Twanger]

Thanks Bowman. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
It doesn't have to be laid at 45degrees, but that's what I have now.

I used a nail gun to install it. 2000 nails.
I'm not looking forward to pulling it up....
I was thinking of running a skill saw down between the joists and then crowbaring them up.
If you have an easier way, I'm all ears! :D

[Altjaeger]

The nails maybe a mixed blessing. They don't hold as well as screws and tend to pull loose over time. However, they are a whole lot easier when it comes time to pull planks. You maybe surprised at how easily they come up after you get a few started.

Some 5-6 years ago when you asked this I had just done a couple decks with the synthetics. They got far too hot to handle in the Texas sun without gloves. I did not like them at that time for that reason though they certainly looked uniform and were not likely to change materially.

I have not done decks for several years but will assume similar properties with 5/4 decking. To lay at 45 degrees I would add joists as you suggest. Laid squared the 16" o.c. should be good. I would attach with 2 1/2"-3" square head deck screws.

[Altjaeger]

Reflecting a bit perhaps it might be best to simply pull one board. Then buy a synthetic board and lay it in in place screwing down without burying your screw. Then walk the length stepping between joists to decide the need for extra joists.

[purple heart]

Hey Twanger, the couple of decks that I've pulled up that were nailed down
we used a cats paw to pull the nails on one run of decking and now that you've got an opening
take an 8 ft. 2 by 4 on it's edge. Put it in the hole opened by removing that one run and use as a
pry bar. We've done a deck in a matter of minutes. Once you have removed a few boards you have to take
a loose one and move it to use as a fulcrom. I hope it makes sense because it works really well.

[Altjaeger]

Purple Heart is right I am sure. We used "tanker bars" wedged in the gaps to the same effect. Cats claws occassionally make it easier on a particularly contacterous nail.

[Bushman]

I've never pulled up a deck, but there is such a thing as a nail puller that you might be able to rent. We had one at work and it was about three feet long, had a sliding hammer within the handle and you gripped the nail head with an ice tongs type pincher. With that much leverage if the nail had a head on it, there wasn't any nail that it wouldn't pull out pretty easily.

[swamp]

are the existing planks Pressure Treated ? If so then I am very surprized that they have rotted.... Are the existing joists PT ?

I'd go with 5/4x6 PT decking, make sure your joists are PT otherwise they will rot if not already... Use staineless steel torx head screws to put the decking down with... 16" OC should be sufficient for any 5/4x6 decking... unless it is carrying some rather unusual weight loads

[Altjaeger]

Like you Swamp I doubt they are rotted. I suspect they are warping and pulling up because they were nailed, not screwed. The grain may also be standing up and providing a rough surface due to the southern sun. I never recommened 5/4 PT. It looks better in the beginning than 2x6 PT but in time tends to warp and twist more looking less attractive.

[swamp]

if the 2x6 decking wasn't PT i am certain that it has rotted.... and if the joists arent PT they are well on their way to rotting as well... 5/4x6 decking works well if the grain is correctly oriented otherwise it can tend to peel (for a lack of a better term) over time.... and go with good stainless steel torx head screws....

oreinting the planks to 45 degrees looks nice and is more labor intensive but doesn't reduce the carrying capacity of the planks

[Altjaeger]

Swamp, I agree that all wood in a deck should be PT. I do not think stainless steel is necessary, though coated outdoor (deck) screws should be used. Torx or square head matters not to me as long as they are not those cursed phillips head which round out so easily! I will stick to my recommendation of 2x6 over 5/4, especially since the difference in price per board is pennies.:smile:

[swamp]

torx works better than square head, stainless costs more but lasts longer than any coated screw... for my money torx head stainless screws makes good sense (cents)

[Altjaeger]

If he is within 30 miles of the coast and salt water I will change my recommendation to concur on stainless.:smile:

[swamp]

star drive heads are even better than torx head i think... for the time spent on removing a screw that didnt make it "home" its worth the extra money

[Twanger]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.
The decking is PT, as is the rest of the structure, but the decking is splitting, splintering, and cracking.
It's downright dangerous for the grandkids. One got a splinter the other night and bawled for 30 minutes.
the rest of the structure is sound.
I built it on concrete footers with metal caps and 6x6 posts all around. I've got about 5000lb of concrete in the footers.

[Altjaeger]

Most likely the main damage was the sun. You are correct that the synthetics will not have that problem though you may need to be sure shoes are worn in the summer sun to prevent burns. If you go back with PT lumber give it about 6 weeks to dry and then treat twice a year with Thompson's water seal or similar product.

Your footers sound like they should support twice the load easily.

[swamp]

Also there is cedar are some rot resistant hard wood species to consider... IMHO the synthetics look like crap... depends on your budget and what you like...

As I recall generally speaking putting the bark side up on plain sawn planks lends itself to less splintering, peeling etc....

[ncboman]

IMHO the synthetics look like crap...


thanks for the compliment. :tongue:

AZEK porch t&g (http://www.azek.com/azek-porch/)

Solid pvc and it doesn't get hot to the touch. :cool1:

check this video out Swamp. (http://www.azek.com/double-dare.html)

[Rock Chuck]

A couple years ago my brother bought a synthetic deck kit from Lowes and I helped him install it. That was my 1st and only time dealing with the stuff. It made a great deck and I'd use it myself. I did learn a couple things about screwing it down
1. take the time to countersink the screws. Otherwise, the heads will raise the material and leave a lump over every screw. You can't beat it down later as it come right back up.
2. GO SLOW with the screws. The material creates a lot of friction as the screw goes in which produces heat. The material will actually melt to the screw at high speed and seize up. The screws will often break. We tried soap, WD40, and oil on the screws but nothing works other than slowing way down with the drill. Since then I've read that some people will predrill all the screw holes. Since you need to countersink the screws anyway, that shouldn't take much longer if you can find a quality bit that will take it. The kit came with stainless steel screws. I don't know if other metals or coated screws would have the same problem.

[Bushman]

Lots of good info here. Something that I've heard about the synthetic decking is that the boards can be slippery when they get wet. Reason enough to get boards with a good grain or fish scale pattern embossed into the surface.

[Twanger]

Thanks again guys.

Bowman - so that's the stuff you used on your recent project?

How is it to work with? Can you really drive a screw into it without pre-drilling and have it leave a flush surface?

It seems shiny. How is it when wet? Slippery? Not bad?

It looks pretty easy to work with.

Can you rip it if you have need of a narrower piece? My stairs require some custom cuts.

[Rock Chuck]

y brother got his from Lowes, I think it was Trex but I'm not positive. We were able to rip it without a problem. However, the planks were solid. Some types have grooves on the bottom and they might be a problem if the cut needs to be in the middle of a groove. That will leave an unsupported edge. We used a carbide saw blade that definitely needed a commercial sharpening after the job. That stuff really eats up blades.

If some types can be screwed flush without countersinking, this wasn't it.

My brother lived in Portland, OR where it rains all winter. The deck got a little moss on it but never got slick. It has a fairly coarse woodgrain pattern.

[GF.]

I hear you on the splinters, Twang - the boys give their mom fits when she sees them out on the dock with me and they're barefoot. Me, she doesn't seem so worried about :p

I've seen some good-looking synthetic decking that comes with little biscuit-shaped spacers that you just clip onto each piece as you lay it in. Seems pretty fool-proof unless the user is just bent on foolishness.

I've gotta replace the planks on the ramp down to the dock - awful splinters on that - tricky part is getting down that sucker at low tide. Gets pretty steep, and if it's at all wet, it'll put me on my can every once in a while, so for the boys and their nana it's pretty dicey. Momma has better sense than to screw around with it ;)

And of course, if I replace the planks, I should probably take a look at the stringers... and the rail...and...and...and.... :p

Salt water, synthetic and stainless steel... just seem to go together... Now I just ahve to find one that's not too slick...

[ncboman]

Thanks again guys.

Bowman - so that's the stuff you used on your recent project?

How is it to work with? Can you really drive a screw into it without pre-drilling and have it leave a flush surface?

It seems shiny. How is it when wet? Slippery? Not bad?

It looks pretty easy to work with.

Can you rip it if you have need of a narrower piece? My stairs require some custom cuts.

Walt,

I was out there Sat morning and it was raining kinda hard so I wouldn't risk getting my camera wet for pics. We used gal torx head screws. It's t&g with no exposed fasteners but it screws fine without predrilling. The wet surface isn't slippery at all, in fact it has better traction than wood. It doesn't get hot like other syn materials I've seen and actually is easier to work with than wood but you have to make kinda fast saw cuts or it will melt. Ripping it is no problem at all.

This is the best deck material I've seen by far but it IS expensive. I'll have pics in a couple of weeks when I get back. Cost aside, I'm sure you'll be very pleased with it. I think you can easily do it yourself. :cool1:

[Twanger]

Thanks Bowman.

What I'm REALLY wondering, is.... can my wife do it herself? :hmmmm:

[Rock Chuck]

Walt,

I was out there Sat morning and it was raining kinda hard so I wouldn't risk getting my camera wet for pics. We used gal torx head screws. It's t&g with no exposed fasteners but it screws fine without predrilling. The wet surface isn't slippery at all, in fact it has better traction than wood. It doesn't get hot like other syn materials I've seen and actually is easier to work with than wood but you have to make kinda fast saw cuts or it will melt. Ripping it is no problem at all.

This is the best deck material I've seen by far but it IS expensive. I'll have pics in a couple of weeks when I get back. Cost aside, I'm sure you'll be very pleased with it. I think you can easily do it yourself. :cool1:

T&G would certainly eliminate the screw head problem. It would be worth the extra $$ for that alone. Is that the stuff that uses the hidden metal fasteners? I saw some at Lowes or somewhere a while back.

[ncboman]

Is that the stuff that uses the hidden metal fasteners?

no, installs just like wood t&g flooring except with gal screws.

The material doesn't swell or shrink so the way it goes on is the way it stays. It works plenty easy enough for Walt's wife to do it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/popcorn.gif

[Greybeard]

I am not impressed with plastic deck material. My boat dock in Arizona is only 6 years old and is starting to disintegrate small chip by chip. My daughter's deck railing is sagging from the summer sun. Both of my decks here in Oregon are made of pressure treated posts/stringers/joists and osmocote (sun wood) decking. These are now 11 and 9 years old and are as good as new. Greybeard/

[swamp]

Greybeard..i agree.. keep it simple, stay with PT, orient the grain on the planks correctly... and use staineless steel torx head or star head screws..

[ncboman]

looking thru the forum threads and got reminded I'd completely forgotten the pics I promised.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc8.jpg

excuse the dirt. work in progress ,,,

actually the job changed into a screened in porch

[ncboman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc7.jpg
tie in between new syn deck and older but still good treated

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc1.jpg
above, attempt at showing where it was ripped

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc5.jpg

[ncboman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc2.jpg

and if you get tired of sittin on the porch ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/roofing%2010/dc3.jpg

the whole world awaits. :biggrin:

[Bushman]

Nice looking job NC. My father-in-law has been threatening to rebuild the dock for several years now, but we need to take it apart in sections and bring it in every year because of the ice, so I think synthetic would be too heavy. There is lots of board feet in that dock pictured for sure.

[Altjaeger]

Nice looking and definately a different product than what I worked with. What is the name?

[Twanger]

Looks good Bowman!
On what joist centers with that decking work? I think mine is 16" C-2-C.
I suppose I could double up on the joists, but that's more work than I was planning....

[Altjaeger]

The deck I had experience with was 16" centers.

[ncboman]

16" centers

Azek (http://www.azek.com/azek-porch/)

[Rock Chuck]

After looking a Lowes website, I know my brother used Trex and it worked great except for the exposed screw problem. They also carry ChoiceDek. Check the reviews on that stuff. They're pretty bad - warping, fading, mold, and staining.