Exciting Story from Gunblast.com

[venado]

Dear Jeff,


You probably don't remember, but way back in 2005, I asked for some frank advice from you about what gun to buy: I thought that you might like to hear of the conversion of a no-interest Englishman to a firearms realist


I am an irrigation engineer and was then (2005) being assigned to some remote places in South America, one of the managers seriously suggested that I buy a gun. I didn't have a clue. Living in the UK, all handguns are illegal and I had no chance to try anything out or practice. I had no intention of becoming an expert. I didn't want some huge gun hanging off my hip as a challenge to anyone who was undoubtedly better than I was at shooting. I figured out that I needed a revolver because there were less things to do to make it fire and less to go wrong. You suggested a .357 magnum revolver. With your excellent advice on board I bought a stainless steel Ruger SP101 (http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_SP101.htm) in .357 magnum, spurless hammer, 2 1/4 inch barrel - it holds five rounds. I bought a inside belt holster from eBay and a few boxes of 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint bullets. It was out-of-sight reassurance, just what I wanted.


When I arrived in South America and had it delivered, I was like a kid with a new toy and quite enjoyed blasting holes into paper targets at a range but, having never been raised with any contact with any sort of gun, the interest simply wasn't there. After a while the Ruger was just something that got cleaned eventually, rarely fired and was just put in its holster by habit like I would pick up my toolbox ... I know by now you must be close to fainting or laughing.


During the last Christmas break, with most of the staff away with their families, I was checking pipelines alone - something I have done hundreds of times over the last four years. The pipes are about five foot in diameter and I like to walk down them checking the welds before they are buried. I parked my truck and started the long stooped walk, carrying just my flashlight. I was about twenty yards inside the pipe when I discovered there were two men in the pipe behind me. They were between me and the exit and, in the narrow pipe, there was no way of running past them. Running away from them down the pipe would just have taken me underground and eventually into twelve miles of water filled irrigation tunnels.


The machetes and grins were enough to make me realise that these two men were not just curious or lost. They were out to rob me! Typically British, I threw my watch, wallet and truck keys at them and backed away - thinking that they would take everything and leave. They did take my things but kept coming down the pipe after me. I am not ashamed to say that just then I was more scared than I have ever been in my life.


More in a panic than anything, I drew the Ruger and for the first time in what seemed like an eternity, those two men looked less than certain. they actually stopped but then ran forward as fast as the pipe would allow. I fired twice, this was the first time that I had ever fired my Ruger without ear defenders and, inside an enclosed unburied section of metal pipe, that was LOUD beyond description. I also didn't realise just how much flash came out. Considering the neglect that my poor Ruger had been given it was a wonder it fired at all. It will probably fill you with horror when I say that I have no idea where the bullets went or that I apparently missed two guys stood shoulder to shoulder, about ten yards away in a five foot pipe. The men ran off which was fine by me and I broke into my truck and called for help which arrived two and a half hours later in the form of a very disinterested policeman and a motor pool guy with some spare keys. My ears stopped ringing just before he arrived.


I know that a lot of people challenge the need to carry weapons at all. To be honest I was probably one of them. This was the first time in my life that I had ever really met with a real threat, I had surrendered, given up everything of value but still these men seemed intent on killing me for reasons best known to themselves. If it had not been for the presence of my handgun and a determination, no matter how inexpert, to use it, I am certain I would have been killed - probably to be never found.


My first instinct was to run for home, quit the job and go sit behind a desk, but my British pig-headedness took over ... why should these bullies force me to give up a job I enjoy?


Instead I took a few lessons with my Ruger and learned to shoot it properly, it only took a weekend to pick up the basics. On the advice of my instructor I bought a different holster and two speedloaders. I now carry more ammunition than just the five in the gun that I had been carrying. I clean my gun everytime I fire it and, no matter what, its lovingly cleaned every Sunday evening (I even talk to it). I go to the range twice a week, not for long, but enough to keep my eye in.


For a former anti-gun Englishman, I have also found myself buying a pump action shotgun, which now lives under the seat of my truck !


A real transformation!


Best wishes


Tim
February 20, 2009
------------------------------------
That's a good story. I am glad that it turned out well for you. Stories like that happen everyday, but never make the news. If you had not been armed, you would now be dead. There was nobody there to help you, and it fell upon you to be responsible for your own safety. You did well. You came out alive. Thanks for sharing your story with the rest of us.
Jeff

[Dennis Keith]

Yeah, too bad his Ruger won't be allowed to go home with him when he returns to England, but EXPERIENCE seems to have to have confirmed a BELIEVER in the Right to Keep And Bear Arms.

[ncboman]

Interesting he gave up his valuables. I doan think I would have done that.

ncboman

[LampLighter]

I would not have given up anything. :mad: and I would have gotton the GP100 4 inch.

[GMWW]

Great story! Practice, practice, practice. Also a nice $100 laser grip would be helpful. :)

[swamp]

I visit www.gunblast.com often... lots of good articles there

[snake river rufus]

"Typically British, I threw my watch, wallet and truck keys at them and backed away - thinking that they would take everything and leave."

A sad commentary on the modern British Empire.

[Twanger]

"Typically British, I threw my watch, wallet and truck keys at them and backed away - thinking that they would take everything and leave."

A sad commentary on the modern British Empire.

I've heard this often enough to make me pause and think, and perhaps even begin to understand this approach. I know it's not the "cowboy way" but is it really worth killing someone over $200 in your wallet? If you shoot somebody, $200 will be chicken feed compared to the $20,000 or more you're gonna have to spend defending your sorry @ss in court, even though you were 100% right in shooting them.

I've often heard that carrying a gun should make you even less inclined to get into a fight, not vice-versa. You're carrying a lot of power there in your back pocket... power that should only be used to defend a life - yours, or the life of another person.

I think he did the right thing.

[snake river rufus]

I've heard this often enough to make me pause and think, and perhaps even begin to understand this approach. I know it's not the "cowboy way" but is it really worth killing someone over $200 in your wallet? If you shoot somebody, $200 will be chicken feed compared to the $20,000 or more you're gonna have to spend defending your sorry @ss in court, even though you were 100% right in shooting them.

I've often heard that carrying a gun should make you even less inclined to get into a fight, not vice-versa. You're carrying a lot of power there in your back pocket... power that should only be used to defend a life - yours, or the life of another person.

I think he did the right thing.

In this story, yes. As the posted stated they kept coming after he gave up the valuables.
I think I would have said (or shown) that I was armed before giving up anything, but I wasn't in his shoes.

[Bushman]

Thinking along the lines of Twanger, is it better to miss your perp just to show that you are armed and mean business and that you might not miss the next time?

[Twanger]

My stepdaughter is a cop that weighs about 120lb soaking wet. She said that she was taught to "keep shooting until the threat is neutralized." They do not fire warning shots, nor do they shoot to 'wound' or disable. They are taught to NOT take a couple of shots and then stop and assess the damage - like maybe you might have the inclination to do. The "shoot, stop and assess" method is a good way to get yourself shot. I think they do the assessing while they are pulling the trigger.

I believe her Glock 23 has a 13 round mag and one in the pipe and I would not at all be surprised to hear some day that she emptied that clip into somebody. Hopefully not, but she is trained for it.

She was one of the best shots in her class, and I get the feeling that if she ever has to open fire on somebody they will never make it to the emergency room alive.

There's probably a lesson in there for those of us not in law enforcement.

[GF.]

I don't own anything worth killing anybody over; bodily harm is another matter entirely. My wife, my kids, anybody who's just minding their own business, or just li'l ol' me--if there's any escape, you gotta take it. If there's no escape, then I guess you gotta do--it's the other guy's choice at that point....

Interesting point there about shooting 'til things go neutral.... I suppose that's why you hear about police shootings in which three guys will empty a whole box of ammo in the space of about 10 seconds. Personally, I'd sooner not be left holding a pistol with only an empty mag in place if I could avoid it, but at least that makes the shell count more understandable.

Doesn't do much to explain the hit count, though....

[Dennis Keith]

I used to buy my guns and ammo from a Col Don Potter up in Sun Prarie Wisconsin when I lived nearby. I asked him what he would do if somebody tried to rob his store (It was a ways from the nearest police station) and Don told me he would "shoot the perp till he ran out of ammo, and then reload." I asked given his experience if that might be considered excessive, and Don's reply was "I'm old, I don't always like being old, but I think I like being old a LOT more than I like being dead, a whole lot more. That "perp" convinced me that I wasn't going to get any older, and it scared me." That's my Storey," and I'll bet he sticks to it.:D

[Twanger]

I used to buy my guns and ammo from a Col Don Potter up in Sun Prarie Wisconsin when I lived nearby. I asked him what he would do if somebody tried to rob his store (It was a ways from the nearest police station) and Don told me he would "shoot the perp till he ran out of ammo, and then reload." I asked given his experience if that might be considered excessive, and Don's reply was "I'm old, I don't always like being old, but I think I like being old a LOT more than I like being dead, a whole lot more. That "perp" convinced me that I wasn't going to get any older, and it scared me." That's my Storey," and I'll bet he sticks to it.:D

Maybe a clip change is a good opportunity to assess the damage! :D

[MOGC]

Bushman,
Hell no it is not better to miss! Warning shots are a bogus idea. First, you fired because you were in fear of your life. You need to act quickly and decisively to defend yourself, fooling around with warning shots could give the opponent the extra time he needs to plant you in Mother Earth. Warning shots cause the lame minded Prosecutor, Judge, or Jury to wonder if the situation was actually serious enough for you to be “in fear of your life.“ That is not a mindset you want to impress upon people that may have you future in their hands. Warning shots deplete your ammo supply. With a five shot revolver, that isn’t something you want to do. In fact, it isn’t something I would want to do with a fifteen shot semi-auto. That ammo is mine, I brought it to defend my life and I am not willing to waste it and perhaps jeopardize my safety later in the encounter should I be a freak of statistics and be in a real western shoot ‘em up. You are also responsible for those warning shots. If those bullets stray to do damage to some unintended person, you are now wholly responsible for the situation you created when you let loose a bullet(s) that you did not control effectively. And thinking practically, if these two miscreant beings are left to wander freely, they will certainly victimize someone else less able to defend themselves. Some people just need killed…

[Hi Ball]

Twanger you said a mouthfull Engineer!!! Yep, lawers are not cheap and the system is not there to protect those that abide by the law really.

I would have drawn the pistol and put them on "warning" STOP or I will Shoot your ass full of holes. The only problem with saying that is, those crooks may not have spoken or understood ENGLISH ok.

However, once that pistol is pointed towards them, they know what could happen next, criminals are total dumb ass's. In most CCW classes, they demonstrate, how fast a person can charge YOU within 20 feet and trust me it is much faster than you think. So get the pistol out in front of you right away and don't even think about negotiating with your wallet or watch first.

[Badger]

Interesting article; I am glad that Englishman finally came to his understanding, will practice, maintain his handgun and carry some spare ammo.

As a retired federal agent and agency firearms instructor, let me say warning shots were FORBIDDEN and would get an agent fired. Second, fire discipline was taught and no agent would fire an entire magazine into the first Bad Guy and be left with an empty gun when multiple assailants appeared on the scene. We taught double taps center mass and one to the head. Agents who could not hit center mass and the head at 15 yards stayed on the range until they could. Three rounds will neutralize even the baddest guy and leave the better part of the magazine for the other threats.

As for the Englishman, who apparently missed two machete wielders inside a 5foot pipe at 10 yards, he should buy a blank pistol until he become proficient. He did not have the necessary mindset to carry a gun for protection. It was more of an after thought that finally occured to him and he muffed it.

Carrying CCW is an awesome responsibility not to be taken lightly. I tell my students to retreat, if possible, and avoid trouble at all costs. In the gravest extreme, fire center mass and to the head.


Badger

[bugsNbows]

WOW, what a story. Glad you survived, took survival matters into your own hands, and are now a full-fledged "gun looney". Too bad others in the UK can't protect themselves!

[Bushman]

Badger, warning shots might be forbidden, but what if you miss accidentally on purpose? Having a large caliber handgun going off in my direction would change my mindset right then and there. Heck, I would think just seeing a gun in the hand of an intended victim would change my mind, but then I'm not a bad guy and I don't think that I know any either.

[MOGC]

Miss "accidently?" You are responsible for that "miss" and any damage or potential damage it might cause. It is still a bad idea for many reasons.

[Bushman]

One into the ground at their feet is what I was thinking, not shooting off down the street. A LEO has the law on their side from the outset. Joe average citizen does not and even if it was a justified shooting, it is going to cost him a fortune to defend himself in court. If the situation could be defused less than lethal, isn't that better?

[Badger]

Bushman,

Several states have passed "Castle Doctrine" legislation which protects the legitmate use of deadly force by citizens. PA is currently considering such legislation.

As for the "accidental miss", consider that round could injure or kill an innocent third party down the street. If you are JUSTIFIED in using deadly force-go for center mass on the bad guy.

Badger

[MOGC]

Less than lethal by the very definition means no firearm - if you skin that smokewagon you'd best be in fear of your life and you'd best use the firearm for its intended purpose. Anything else is asking for trouble and if you said what you just typed here in a court an attorney is gonna rip you a new one.

[Bushman]

I am responsible for every round that I put anywhere now be that at the range or out hunting. I was watching that North Hollywood robbery shoot out yesterday on the History Channel and all told there was over 1,300 rounds fired in a very urban setting and the only two people that were killed were the robbers themselves.

You guys as LEOs have lots of less than lethal alternatives like mace, night sticks, bean bag rounds, rubber bullets, tazers, flash bangs... A good guy with a CCW and a handgun does not have those options. I guess that I just don't have the mental mind set to think that a center mass double tap and a head shot is worth the few dollars in my wallet.

[Badger]

Bushman,

I saw that rerun of the North Hollywood shoot out and conclude those cops could NOT hit what they were shooting at. None of the cops took head shots where the two bad guys had NO body armor on their heads! The cops shot center mass on the body armor and wondered why nothing happened. Duh. One cop fired a 12 gauge with buckshot and nothing happened on the BG target.

The SWAT officer finally got some smarts and shot the BG behind his car in the ankle with an M16 at 22 feet. It had an effect. The other BG committed suicide by shooting himself under the chin with his 9mm pistol. NONE of the cops on the scene took a head shot on him before that.

If you ever get into a confrontation, do what a reasonable man would do. Retreat as far as possible and when there is no other alternative do what you trained for.

I suggest you ask your legislators to introduce "Castle Doctrine" legislation in your state. That law would cover you as a citizen. You may not think a few dollars in your wallet is "worth two center mass and one to the head." Ok, how do you KNOW the Bad Guy will not give you that same gunfire AFTER he take the few dollars in your wallet? When you are accosted by an armed BG, cooperation is NO guarantee he/she will let you live to testify down the road! If you do not have the mental attitude to protect yourself with a gun, then DO NOT carry one. I have never run a bluff with a gun and no one should.

Badger

[GF.]

I guess that I just don't have the mental mind set to think that a center mass double tap and a head shot is worth the few dollars in my wallet.

First things first: I totally agree with you. But that's not what concealed carry is for, man.... Especially the way things are these days, a law-abiding citizen will probably do more time for killing a mugger over a wallet than the habitual-criminal mugger would do for killing the wallet's rightful owner.

I'm still in the stage of considering whether I'd ever really want to carry or not, so I picked up a copy of The Concealed Handgun Manual Friday evening. Stayed up a little bit later than I had planned that night, and finished it off yesterday (Sun.).

So right now I'm still under the influence of a bunch of 'This Happened To Me" stories, but here's the thing...

Say somebody steps out of a dark place and yells at you to give him your wallet. So you jump back, saying 'OK, OK, man...take the money' and you toss the wallet towards him while backpedaling as fast as you can without falling on your arse. And now that you've done what he demanded, what do you do if he doesn't take the money and run like hell?

At this point, the 'robbery' is over-- if he's not runnin', you'd sure as hell better be, and you'd damn well better be able to beat him in a 100-yard dash.

On the other hand, if you were carrying.... When you toss your wallet to the guy, you've distracted him. He's gonna watch that wallet, even if just for a second. And if you toss the wallet to where he'll have to move away from you to get to the money, he has no reason whatsoever to move towards you unless he has more than robbery on his mind. And so if he comes towards you now, it's entirely possible that you're gonna have to be extremely lucky to leave that scene under your own power.

Or suitably armed, trained, and mentally prepared.

The pro-carry guys will say that while he's watching to see where your wallet ends up, you could be drawing & raising your new best friend while continuing to back away from the dude. And screaming at him to back the hell off as loud as you possibly can is probably a really good idea, even if (like me) your voice tends to crack a bit at high volume and you sound a bit girly doin' it. :rolleyes:

But you're now retreating on your own terms and it no longer matters who's the fastest. If he's coming at you now, it's a very safe bet that he's not going to give you a big hug and apologize for scaring you. Anything other than running would be a very stupid choice on his part, but it would be his choice.

And the only problem is that if you just made a gang-banger crap his pants and run-- and especialy if it's right in front of his homies-- he's gonna be pissed, and he's probably going to want to get even. So at that point you might begin to regret having given him your name, your address, and pictures of your kids.

One guy in the book did the back-away & be-cool routine, but came up with his shooter instead of his wallet, and IIRC, he started shooting as soon as he was out of his own line of fire. That doesn't give the bad guys much time to reconsider their options, and if none of them are found to be armed, you could be up crap creek without those gardening gloves you asked for. Forget about how you might feel about it - you've gotta think about jail time and civil suits that'll leave you completely bankrupt, to say nothing of forfeiting all of your hunting rigs, voting rights, etc....


So I still don't know where I come down on all of this... :confused: Other than thinking that maybe if you're going to carry lethal force, you might consider carrying a 'decoy' wallet full of monopoly money to go with it...:eek:

I guess the bottom line is still that the gun doesn't come out unless you're to the point where you're making a conscious decision that if the BG won't back off, you'd rather have your kids come visit you in prison than at the cemetery....

[dave-t.]

My grandad always used to say..."If you're in a shooting, you only want the cops to hear your side of the story."

You were in fear of your life then, no matter what. If the other guy lives, all of a sudden he was minding his own buisness when some shifty white guy went berserk with a gun. Bad news.


Don't think for a minute that a guy can't kill you with his hands or anything else he might get a hold of to beat you with, especially if there is more than one of them. Being scared for your life is generally enough reason to protect yourself.

[MOGC]

An old officer told me, "Son, if you are in a shooting, shoot like they vote in Old Chicago - early and often."

[GF.]

MOGC- as a LEO, aren't you more likely to get the benefit of the doubt than a private citizen would be?


To Dave's point, honestly fearing for your life is adequate justification - fearing significant bodily harm is enough, and nobody says you have to permit anyone to do you any bodily harm before you can protect yourself. I think that passes both the Moral and the Legal sniff tests. But in a lawyer-happy society, you're also going to have to persuade somebody, or more likely a long string of somebodies--officers on the scene, DA, judge, and/or jury--that you were reasonably and justifiably fearful for your life or well-being. And making an obvious attempt to retreat before anybody starts shooting seems like it would be important to making the case for your rightful self-defense.

One of the stories in that book I just finished was about a cop who heard a disturbance out front of his house. He went out to make sure there was nothing seriously wrong going down, and the Loud Guy got in his face. So the cop says 'well, make damn sure you stay off of my property' and goes back inside. Bad feeling about this, so he heads for his bedroom to collect his revolver and as he comes back out of his bedroom, the Loud Guy is just a few feet down the hall, headed straight for the cop.

Who put him down right then and there.

Seems pretty cut & dried, no? But the cop ended up with a serious conviction on his record and is no longer a legal gun owner. And when I told this story to a buddy of mine who is a cop in NJ, he said he believed it--if the intruder was unarmed, the cop was responsible for knowing that and not using deadly force, even inside his own home.

:confused::confused::confused:

And no, my buddy isn't some namby-pamby - he's Airborne... And he's one of those guys who never talks about being in the Army.

So it seems to me that it's not as simple as 'I was scared'; and frankly, if I were on a jury and someone had started shooting as soon as a Bad Guy demanded a wallet, I'd be looking at a whole long list of other factors before I'd be able to decide whether serious force was justified. Frankly, if escape is a viable option, I don't think it's reasonable to shoot anybody, so if I were on a jury it would really come down to how viable an option 'escape' appeared to be.

And on the other hand, if it were not one stupid kid, but several, and/or at least one of them were positioned to prevent my being able to turn around and run like hell, and/or I were with my wife, my kids, or anyone else who might not be able to outrun the Bad Guys, then my escape options are limited.

I'm not saying I'm OK with getting robbed, I'm just saying I'm not OK with killing some stupid kid over a coupla twenties... Some, most, or maybe even all of you guys will disagree, but our society is changing without you--especially in the bigger urban centers. That doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means that a guy can't bank on getting a jury that will believe a shooting was justified, especially if it ends up looking like you pulled a gun against the threat of a fist or even a knife. And especially since Responsible Citizens in this country seem to be awfully good at avoiding jury duty.

Hell, man... Just because OJ was found 'innocent' doesn't mean that you will be.....

So yeah, if it looks like it's gonna be a gunfight, you gotta have a plan for winning... but it seems to me that from a practical/legal standpoint, you also have to be able to articulate why you consciously ruled out all of your other options before you started shooting...

[MOGC]

MOGC- as a LEO, aren't you more likely to get the benefit of the doubt than a private citizen would be?

Actually I think it is the opposite. LE is supposed to be trained for this type situation and probably has more experience in dealing with events like this. A LE shooting gets considerably more media coverage and is raked over the coals by every lawyer and all the specialty coverage groups like the ACLU, ect. I think cops are held to a considerably higher standard than an "average citizen" is. The story about "The Loud Guy" seems to bear that out. I think that in many areas of the country a homeowner would never be charged in a situation like that, especially if the state has the Castle Doctrine Law.

[dave-t.]

MO has the castle doctrine, which roughly translates to: Anyone in your house or on your property causing a threat to person or property can be dealt with using deadly force. No effort to retreat required. You can also jump in to save someone if they are in danger, the shooter doesn't have to be the one facing the immediate threat, the "self defence shooter" can infact head toward danger to protect another legally.

I know even back in the 80's, well before the castle doc, and concealed carry, two out of the three home invasion shootings that happened to my relatives, only one out of the three invaders was armed, but all three got shot. Not one hint of being sued, or having legal issues complicate things.

Heck one of the bad guys got peppered in the feet with a #4 turkey load as he was jumping through a window pane, making his attempt to flee the house, and the cops never brought up any questions as to if it was a legal or justified shooting.

That one could even be twisted into a premeditated shooting. Gramps had been broken into 2 nights in a row, filed police reports etc., third night he calls in sick to work, hides the car around the block, and hid in an interior room with a shotgun. Bad guy breaks in, unarmed, tried to flee when gramps pops out, and bad guy gets peppered. Gramps calls the cops and gives his story. Bad guy makes his way 2 blocks to his home and calls an ambulance saying he got shot in the feet. Cops put two and two together and arrest the bad guy as he is getting carried to the ambulance. This was in down town St Louis.


That is not a recommendation to shoot first and hope it works out. That is just to show that different cities, states, and police departments can act very differently about self defense shootings, so know who you are dealing with for your own sake. I think Gramps calling in two burgleries in two consecutive nights is what really protected him the third night, because a good lawyer could have very easily spun it into a story about a demented home owner shoooting an unarmed man who was down on his luck and is now crippled due to the premeditated shooting.

I fully believe if Gramps pulled that in Chicago IL, he would have been worse off than the burglar

[Badger]

GF,

IF the cop had a bad feeling about the Loud Guy, he should have locked his front door on his way to get his gun.

Badger

[Badger]

dave-t,

In some states, like MA, the DA routinely indicts homeowners who shoot home invaders, even if the BG was ARMED and died in the homeowner's bedroom!

Badger

[Badger]

In many cases I have followed, the one question the grand jury wants to know is the "standing" of the bad guy who got shot.

DID the home invader have a right to be in your home at 2:00 a.m. by breaking out the back door window? When it was established the deceased had NO STANDING, no True Bill of Indictment followed. That is PA and NOT states like MA.

Badger

[Hi Ball]

MO-GC........I think I know who that was, who used to say "Shoot early and often".

Well, there is one thing for certain in all this rederic about the Bad Guys verses the Citizen, YOU don't want to be carrying a pistol, if your not going to use commit yourself 100% to pulling the trigger come time to do so.;):)