Taurus Judge

[Robie]

Does anyone have one and how do you like it? I've been interested in one since they came out.

[LampLighter]

I thought it was a wonderful idea, and I suggested to Altjaeger to consider it for his Kayak trips. Then somebody stepped in, I believe it was GF, and stated that it had a smooth bore so the 410 shotshells could be used, and because of that, the 45 LC rounds would have lousy accuracy, coupled with the short barrel. I think I got his word summarized correctly. It made sense and was enough to make me do a 180 away from it.

[Just a Hunter]

The Judge has rifling.

It may not be the best rifling, but none the less its there.

At the distances the Judge was ment to be used it will stabilize a 45 colt just fine , and there are actually ammo manufactures that offer 410 cartridges designed to pattern well in the Judge.

PS: If the Judge did not have the rifling it would fall into the description of a shotgun and would carry all the mandates of what a shotgun can and cannot be. re barrel length etc

[Altjaeger]

I think the issue raised was the jump a bullet had to make to the rifling because the cylinder was long enough for the 2 1/2" 410 round. That left a long jump to the barrel for the pistol cartridge.

[LampLighter]

Whatever it was, I don't want one.

[Bushman]

Federal just brought out a 2.5" .410 shell with three buckshot loaded into it. That is like three .38's hitting the target simultaneously. Pretty effective at close range I would think.

[GF.]

Hmmmmm... Don't think I know anything about this one, so it probably wasn't me offering that opnion.... About all I know of .410s is that the shell was built to load & shoot in milsurp .45/70s, so I suppose a pistol built for the cartridge would handle the shotshell... The point about legal distinctions between shotguns and handguns is well-made, I'd expect, though I kinda have to wonder if there isn't some language somewhere which exempts smoothbore pistols. It's a shame if it doesn't, 'cuz wouldn't it make better sense to carry a smoothbore revolver for snake duty? I'd think a .44 SPCL loaded up w/ #9 or some ratshot would be about the thing...

[MOGC]

The Judge is a terrible shotgun and a poor pistol, I can't figure out what the excitment is about.

[Just a Hunter]

You can load it with shot and not have to worry about shooting through both yours and the neighbors walls as you would with a typical pistol cartridge.

On the other hand you could load it with buck shot and with every squeeze of the trigger your going to send three .38 cal balls in the direction of the bad guy.

This is not a shotgun your going to go dove hunting with.
Its also not the most concealable pistol if thats what your looking for.
(Though Taurus has recently released a Judge designed for easier concealed carry)

It is a excellent choice for home protection or a sidearm for hiking/camping etc.

[Just a Hunter]

BTW: Here is the Mellon Head video from Taurus.
The actual commercial is ok, but the making of the video including
slow motion footage that is shown afterwards is very entertaining.

http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-judge-video.cfm

[Hi Ball]

Robie........why may i ask???

[Bill Mc]

There is also a Magnum which shoots a 3 inch .410 shell. We sell them as fast as taurus can deliver them.

Funny thing though, we can seem to get any .45 colt in stock.

[MOGC]

You can load it with shot and not have to worry about shooting through both yours and the neighbors walls as you would with a typical pistol cartridge.

On the other hand you could load it with buck shot and with every squeeze of the trigger your going to send three .38 cal balls in the direction of the bad guy.

This is not a shotgun your going to go dove hunting with.
Its also not the most concealable pistol if thats what your looking for.
(Though Taurus has recently released a Judge designed for easier concealed carry)

It is a excellent choice for home protection or a sidearm for hiking/camping etc.

You are right about not worrying about penetration, shot loads barely break 700 fps from The Judge. The buckshot loads are just as puny on the velocity and penetration end. Either one wouldn't give me confidence of penetrating deeply enough into the vitals of man or animal to disrupt and shock enough tissue to cause the attacker to cease the aggression. Then it is a very cumbersome and clumsy .45 Colt revolver with mediocre accuracy because of the long bullet jump in the chambers. Neither fish nor fowl and a novelty gun at best.

[Just a Hunter]

OK, So it only has a velocity of 750fps with a full load of shot.

Thats fairly close to the velocity one might find in several common loads for the 44special. I suspect the Judge would do even greater damage than the venerable 44 when used from across the distance of the living room.

The buckshot should exit the barrel at around 1100fps, and Ive seen data showing over 900fps at 12ft from the muzzle.

Thats 3, .38 cal pellets traveling at a speed as fast as a .38special coming at you with every squeeze of the trigger.

If you dont like the Judge thats fine by me.
I dont own one and likly wont, but for its intended purpose it works well and very effective I might add.

[MOGC]

The difference between a 1/2 ounce of #6's at 750 fps and a 250 gr. .44 bullet at 750 fps from across the room is about an extra 12" of penetration for the solid .44 bullet. The shot will not stay together because of the spin the rifling puts on it. Patterns are wide and they get wide quickly. Regarding the buckshot, the NRA American Rifleman chrono'd that load and got about the same 700+ fps with it. The heavier buckshot pellets do penetrate better than the birdshot loads, but do not reach a level to be effective against large animals or humans. I just ain't drinking the Kool Aid and will consider myself much better armed with either a real shotgun or a real handgun.

[Just a Hunter]

http://www.americanrifleman.org/images/Judge4.jpg

http://www.americanrifleman.org/handguns_revolvers_Judge4.html

My eyes are not as good as they once were, but does the pic not show a velocity of 808fps at 12ft for the buckshot in a 3" mag?

I suspect those little balls will be expanding to around .42 and with the 3" mag there will be 5 per fired shot.

This is the equivalent of unloading & hitting a assailant with all 5 shots from a snub nose .38 every time you fire.

[MOGC]

808 fps makes you warm and fuzzy? That's not even close to the 1100 fps you mentioned above. By the way, it isn't like one shot from a .410 buck load at 800 fps is akin to all five shots from a .38 snubbie. You better check what each one of those little round balls weigh, they certainly don't weigh 158 grs. each. That light weight and low velocity assures very limited penetration; and if there is expansion (iffy at such low velocity) penetration will only be less.

[Just a Hunter]

Yawn....I thought you read the velocity of said pellets were at a distance away from the muzzle and would conclude the muzzle velocity would be higher.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/ST_taurusbigboredblft_200812/index4.html

Federal Premium ammunition introduced two new 2.5-inch Personal Defense .410 loads in 2009 specifically designed for--you guessed it--The Judge. One is a #4 shotshell load, the other is a 000-buckshot load, and both are rated at 1,300 fps muzzle velocity from the gun.

[MOGC]

Would you purposefully choose a .410 shotgun in a full size shotgun like a M870 pump gun or whatever as a home defense weapon when there are better gauge guns available? I'll bet you don't have one stacked in the corner right now, do you? I don't, I have a Benelli M1S90 Tactical .12 gauge loaded with 2 3/4" 00 Buck and wouldn't even consider a .410 shotgun if there were any better options around for me. To choose the .410 and further handicap myself with a frumpy oversized handgun that can only hurt what little performance the little cartridge can muster from a long gun, just doesn't make sense to me. To recommend it to others as "very effective" isn't too keen an ideal IMHO. Hell, I've shot one pound gray squirrels with a 3" .410 from a 28" barrel that stopped copper plated lead #4's just under their hide. I don't have confidence in getting 12" - 14" of penetration in a muscled, agitated, dangerous attacker. But if it blows air up your skirt, congrat's!

[Just a Hunter]

In my youth it wasnt uncommon to get invited to run dogs after deer, and the choice of ammo was a 12gauge in either OO or OOO depending on what was on sale that week.


The deer were often at full run, and rarely within 12ft when they passed you, but never the less the buckshot seemed to do a good job.

12gauge 2 3/4"shells 1290fps http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/buckshot.aspx?id=459

If there getting between 1200 and 1300fps (depending on barrel length)out of the premium loads for the 410 in a Judge I would have to assume that penetration would be enough to get it beyond skin thickness based on my prior experience.

Would I rather have a assault shotgun loaded with 9 rounds? Absolutely!

Can you get such a shotgun in the dresser drawer by your bed,center console of your truck or inside pocket of your jacket? Not on your life.

The Judge may not be perfect, and I agree using any form of birdshot for personal protection in it would be fruitless unless your planning to get it right in a offenders kisser.

With a load of premium buckshot such as being offered by Federal at a distance you might encouter in a self defense role the Judge should be a very nasty pistol to encounter.

[Hi Ball]

I use a 44mag with snake shot, #6's loaded up in the cartridge. It does a real good job on snakes even at 15 feet away. I usually shoot em closer in range of around 8 feet.

I would never try to use a handgun with snake shot to carry in a deliberate sence on the street. A solid bullet in 9mm weighing 115 to 125grn, going a 1000fps is much better for self defense in stopping an attacker.