S&W 500 Double Fire [Archive] - HuntAmerica.com Talk Forums

Just a Hunter

05-24-2010, 05:16 PM

The cylinder gap video dont alarm me at all.
A high speed video of most anycenterfire revolver would show similar results.
I fully suspect the the revolver is not failing to operate as designed, but instead is cycling under recoil and firing again.
There releasing tension on the trigger after firing resetting the action and the recoil is raising the pistol forcing the gun to cycle and fire again.
Operator error though totally unintensional.

swamp

05-24-2010, 05:17 PM

another double fire... why hasn't S&W done a recall

http://splodetv.com/girl-almost-kills-herself-w-500-magnum

Just a Hunter

05-24-2010, 05:24 PM

Nice video.

Sorry I dont buy into the pistol setting off a 2nd round on its own.
This is a powerful pistol in the hands of another inexperienced shooter attempting to control the recoil with there finger on the trigger.
Its firing again in a near vertical position as the pistol is twisting in the shooters wrist and tension is again being placed on the trigger a second time.

IMO the pistol is doing as it was intended. If the trigger is squeezed a second time it will shoot a second time.
If you squeeze the trigger 3 times it should shoot 3 times

The pistol dont care what caused the trigger to be squeezed, it just reacts as it was designed

postoak

05-24-2010, 06:18 PM

I am thinking the same thing.

swamp

05-24-2010, 10:03 PM

i think there is more to it than just operator error... the smith 500 is a double action revolver...

Sidekick

05-24-2010, 10:24 PM

I don't care if it's triple action. It won't fire unless someone has their finger on the trigger. Never underestimate the ability of someone who doesn't know what they are doing to completely screw it up.

Just a Hunter

05-24-2010, 10:41 PM

The double action trigger on the 500S&W is likly less than 8ft/lbs.
I would suspect the recoil of this pistol is far greater than that in a upward movement.

It dont take alot of movement on the trigger to reset the action and if your finger is still in place while your attempting
to control the reoil you now have a accident waiting to happen.

IMO The recoil of this level of pistol seems to be rearward at first and then upward. I think this is contributing to the loss of trigger control and then
the discharge of the pistol afterwards.

swamp

05-24-2010, 11:16 PM

Sidekick, as in full auto mode.. now i get it... keep your finger on the trigger and the revolver goes into full automatic... nice

Just a Hunter... I dont think any of those people could pull the trigger that fast if they tried... something is definitely wrong... its like the inertia of the recoil is causing bad things to happen that shouldn't

Look at the 3rd video ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4OE78spknk&feature=player_embedded here is a comment by flymasterA... seems to be on spot... "This is the notorious S&W double-hit. Mine has done it 3 times. S&W says it from pulling the trigger twice inadvertantly, and that's a LIE. There's a slow-mo of it on You-tube. The next cylinder opening progresses without a trigger pull from the recoil inertia and automatically does a hammer-throw to fire the round down the bore. It's always a 1-2 firing, so it's never a 'sympathetic' firing. It also seems a slow squeeze rather than a brisk pull makes it more likely. "

Just a Hunter

05-24-2010, 11:45 PM

Who knows for sure?
I doubt I will ever own anything more powerful than the 44mag I currently have.
Its all I ever wanted, and alot more than I really need.

swamp

05-25-2010, 12:15 AM

I'm going to attempt to show these videos to the gun manager at a local cabelas and see what he thinks... something isnt right... I cant believe there hasnt been a recall on these S&W 500s

Just a Hunter

05-25-2010, 12:29 AM

http://static.howstuffworks.com/flash/revolver-diagram.swf

Squeeze the trigger to watch tha animation.

This is a fairly basic approach to how a revolver works, but it gives a good idea to how a cylinder is set in motion and rotated.

TBH I dont see how the 500S&W is rotating its cylinder and firing unless the trigger is being inadvertanty squeezed.

Regardless of what is really going on I appreciate the notice and please share any updates as you learn of them.

Dennis Keith

05-25-2010, 09:02 AM

I used to make knives with GW Stone. GW modified a smith 22 semi for a friend that wanted a really light carry piece. Upon receiving the weapon the owner told us of a malfunction. Seems the magazine fell out after the last round was fired instead of the slide staying locked open. Try as many times as he could GW could not duplicate the fault. When I tried, the magazine fell out every time. I found that with large hands positioned incorrectly that a thumb could rest over the magazine release with enough pressure to release the magazine upon firing the last shot. GW's hands were too small to reach the magazine relaese when he gripped the weapon for firing. How are you gonna fix something you cannot duplicate in the lab. Those double taps show that the .500 is not to be used by casual shooters, or those with weak grips, because it does indeed appear to function as designed, that is, it rotates the cylinder and fires a second round when the novice reacting to the massive recoil does indeed pull the trigger of the weapon a second time, in very rapid succession.

GF.

05-25-2010, 12:51 PM

So the question is this - do other DA revolvers do the same thing under heavy recoil?

I tend to agree with Post and JAH that the DA is operating exactly to specification... and the shooters are not.

Brings up a point, though... If this is the sort of thing that happens with really big DAs, why did they build anything this big in DA instead of Single? Maybe they could reduce the frequency by increasing the trigger travel, but I have a feeling that these folks are hanging on for dear life; they can't possibly keep the trigger all the way down under recoil, so the trigger breaks, the pistol recoils backwards faster than a shooter can tighten up, and inertia returns the trigger to ready. So when they tighten up again, trying to regain control of the beast...

Kinda makes me wonder why there's no 3rd shot coming off, but I suppose the first trigger pull is a proper 'squeeze' and the second is more of a choke-hold....

GF.

05-25-2010, 12:52 PM

Dang, you guys are fast! We cross posted, but it looks like we all agree.... 'Cept Swamp, o' course ;)

swamp

05-25-2010, 03:01 PM

As per the videos i don't agree that the S&W 500 was functioning normally, I got an email stating that the problem was fixed... but no details were given so I am trying to chase down what the problem was and what the fix was...

Altjaeger

05-25-2010, 07:15 PM

The only way that pistol could fire like that is two trigger pulls. The cylinder would be blocked from rotating without that. But then some believe conspiracies and the supernatural extend even unto mechanical objects. :smile:

As to the flash from the cylinder gap, it was not particularly alarming. I would expect more flash from a .357 Magnum than a .38 Special and more from this pistol that most.

But Swamp is right that no one should be using a gun they truly fear. Few of us need such a gun and most of us would not wish the punishment.

rimrock

05-26-2010, 01:28 PM

"there releasing tension on the trigger after firing resetting the action and the recoil is raising the pistol forcing the gun to cycle and fire again.
Operator error though totally unintentional."

BINGO!
learning to hold it and fire it correctly cures that, its a 100% operator induced problem, a decent firm grip and trigger control would cure that, you can,t allow the gun to whip around loosely in your hand to that extent, and yes I have fired full loads in a 500 S&W thats why I draw the line at useful recoil at the 454 cassul or 445 DWSM

swamp

05-26-2010, 03:23 PM

rimrock, I might agree with that except the time between shots it too quick for human reflexes to cycle the double action for the 2nd shot

GF.

05-26-2010, 03:59 PM

It's not a matter of 'reflex', Swamp; the shooters are squeezing continuously, but the recoil accelerates the trigger backward past the squeeze - allowing the trigger to return to 'start' - so that when the shooter finishes the squeeze, they end up tripping the trigger a second time...

Recall that nothing happens at all until a split second after the hammer is all the way down on the first cap, so the trigger is ready to cycle before any recoil begins. All it takes is for the recoil to move the whole gun backwards faster than the trigger is moving toward the frame. The trigger itself has a spring to return it to 'start', plus the trigger and the trigger finger have their own inertia, so it takes a split second to get trigger and finger up to the same speed as the frame of the revolver and the shooter's hand. Essentially, the shooter's trigger finger flies open, but the muscles are executing a constant pull, so they finish what they started.

The 'fix' would be to figure out how to prevent the trigger from beginning a second cycle until the trigger is squeezed beyond a certain point, but at that rate, the ability to get off a second shot in a hurry would be compromised....

But tell me this... Does this happen primarily when somebody is holding the shooter up from behind? 'm wondering if there isn't something going on with the shooter getting accelerated backward first, then slamming into the supporter. I noticed that the women involved here also kept their elbows locked up tight. So recoil tips the revolver up and back. Shooter starts moving backward, then meets with sudden resistance, which essentially causes the revolver to 'kick' again as it continues backward. Just thinking there might be something about that rock & roll cycle that compounds the problem.

swamp

05-26-2010, 04:58 PM

Altjaeger

05-26-2010, 05:16 PM

GF.. a well known handgun reviewer on the internet emailed me and said the problem was fixed and gave no details... I am trying to find out what the fix was but so far he hasnt responded back... I also email smith and wesson.. no response so far... I havent seen this happen with any other revolver... have you?

If the reviewer is that well known please share his name. The only fix I know of would be add more weight to the gun or cut the weight of the powder load and/or the bullet\ reducing recoil. Anything else I am confident is pure fiction and faery dust.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Just a Hunter

05-26-2010, 05:38 PM

Hold on one freaking second.

Are you trying to to suggest there is no such thing as fairies or simply stating they dont make fairy dust?

I guess the next thing your going to imply is there's no EasterBunny or Santa Claus

swamp

05-26-2010, 05:47 PM

just a hunter, read some of the comments from the link about some of the original 500 primers causing accidental discharges in other cylinders is this all just a so much bull shit you think?

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2006/07/video_of_500_sw.html

"Another very dangerous early problem, with the original primers, was the firing of a round in another chamber as a result of recoil. Now that the primers have been changed, and if they are set properly, this is no longer a problem."

Just a Hunter

05-26-2010, 06:29 PM

I dont wish to negate the possibility of some sort of mechanical error, but the majority of the claims on the link you posted seemed to feel it was operator error that caused there dobule fire.

Just a Hunter

05-26-2010, 06:31 PM

PS: If I was looking into a hand cannon I would get something in the 460S&W.

This would give the option of firing the 460S&W, 454 Cassull or the 45 colt.

swamp

05-26-2010, 06:37 PM

i have no idea if the dbl fires were caused from protruding primers or weak cylinder springs but something definitely seemed wrong beyond the shooter... I have never witnessed a double fire in a revolver prior to this.. Have you ?...

I own a ruger alaskan in 454 casull and thats far more practical than the smith 500 from my purposes..

Just a Hunter

05-26-2010, 07:11 PM

I've never had anything like this happen to me with a revolver, but I once owned a Polish P64 (milsurp auto) that would gladly doubletap if you didnt keep a good grip on it.

Altjaeger

05-26-2010, 09:29 PM

i have no idea if the dbl fires were caused from protruding primers or weak cylinder springs but something definitely seemed wrong beyond the shooter... I have never witnessed a double fire in a revolver prior to this.. Have you ?...

No I have never witnessed or heard of anything like this but I have never been around when so large a pistol was fired, let alone by a novice. But neither have I ever heard of a revolver double firing without a double trigger pull.

Please explain how you can definately say it is a mechanical problem never before heard of with no evidence or knowledge of what is causing it? How could a protuding primer or weak cylinder pin possibly cause a cylinder to unlock, a pawl to rotate the cylinder or a hammer fully rebound to cause a double fire for without all three happening it would be impossible?

The only thing I can conclude is that once again you love of conspiracy theories has kicked in and you wish to accuse one of those evil corporate entities of coverups.

swamp

05-27-2010, 12:25 AM

Just a Hunter, ......apparently it was a problem only with the early guns but for whatever reason there was never a recall from smith and wesson regarding the issue

http://www.gunblast.com/SW_500.htm

Altjaeger

05-27-2010, 07:26 AM

Just a Hunter

05-27-2010, 04:24 PM

How do you do a recall for a problem that does not exist?
Ask a Democratic Official the policy they use once they hold a seat.

Altjaeger

05-27-2010, 05:42 PM

Ask a Democratic Official the policy they use once they hold a seat.

Good point!!! If it were not so true it might be laughable.

yoteshooter

05-31-2010, 08:58 AM

This is no diffrent than slap firing a semi auto rifle. Between the huge amount of recoil and the extreme weight of the gun, its slap firing. If you remember the old "hellfire" kits for semi rifles you can see this in action. No its not Bush's fault, no its not a conspiracy, and no its not a corporate coverup linked to the evil banking industry. Its actually high school level physics in action. And yes I have shot one of these, I actually owned the first two in my neck of the woods and have about a thousands rounds through them.

Altjaeger

05-31-2010, 10:18 AM

You will have to excuse me if I remain doubtful. There is a big difference in causing true "auto fire" in a gun that is designed to be self-loading and one that is designed to be manually loaded into the chamber. Even then as I recall the most common cause is a worn sear. Even John Browning had to mount a lever action on a plank and do a bit of additional mechanical chicanery to test the concept of an autoloader. I don't claim great mechanical skills but a gun requiring a minimum of 3 seperate mechanical actions that it was not designed to do automatically would seem unlikely to do so. Rather jamming would seem a far more likely outcome.

I will assume that the guns are relatively new, mechanically sound and operating as designed with unworn sears. Until someone can explain it it who has creditable credentials or in language this simpleton can understand I will stay with users accidentaly double tapping the trigger as the explanation.

Swamp, have you come up with a name for this nationally recognized source or an explanation yet?

swamp

05-31-2010, 12:48 PM

yoteshooter... a triple tap... holy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCjdQwJHEms

GF.

06-01-2010, 10:58 AM

Slow it down to a frame-by-frame, and what you'll see is that this idiot's grip is opening and closing repeatedly during the firing cycle. And guess what? Every tine hos grip tightens up again, the damn thing goes KA-BOOOM! one more time.

The only 'fix' for this 'problem' is made by Trojan, Lifestyles, and other manufacturers of quality prophylactics..... Unfortunately, the solution cannot be applied retroactively....:rofl:

swamp

06-04-2010, 01:12 PM

could be but never heard of this happening with any other revolver... have you?

Just a Hunter

06-04-2010, 03:34 PM

how many revolvers are currently chambered for a S&W500?
Would this not be basically the same revolver as the one chambered in S&W460 and if so why have you not heard of similar issues in its use.

Dennis Keith

06-06-2010, 05:41 PM

Altjaeger

06-06-2010, 11:08 PM

The difference is apparant when you compare the amount of energy generated by the .500. That amount of recoil just cannot be absorbed by most amateurs, without the types of incidents we see recorded by the photos.

There you go applying logic on something that Swamp has already decided is a manufacturers defect and is highly unlikely to change his mind in the face of any and all evidence. That being so the solution is for the manufacturer to add weight to the pistol and /or reduce the loading. Of course that would ruin its marketability and deprive serious users of their pleasure in it.

Dennis Keith

06-07-2010, 08:19 AM

Oh, yeah, my bad.

swamp

06-07-2010, 09:49 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgS4WgD9yB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgS4WgD9yB0

swamp

06-07-2010, 09:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgS4WgD9yB0

swamp

06-07-2010, 10:04 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIArhxHVZmM&feature=related

Bushman

06-07-2010, 10:41 AM

In the 8:49 posted video it sure looks like that hammer is cocked back for the third shot to go off too up into the ceiling looking at the still photograph and that is a young and likely inexperienced shooter like we have seen in some of the other videos. I've shot a .500 S&W at the range a couple of times and frankly it was not as severe as what I was expecting. I think that is the case with most of these double taps with new shooters. They have such a death grip on the pistol fearing a dislocation that they cannot get their finger off the trigger and relax their grip on the thing fast enough to prevent it from going off again. It is a big, heavy N frame pistol and that fact alone demands a firm grip.

If you don't think that a double action S&W pistol can fire fast, just Google some of the shooting that Jerry Miculek has done with his. He can shoot a double action pistol faster than the cycling rate of a Thompson sub-machine gun!

Altjaeger

06-07-2010, 02:12 PM

ROFL!!! Yup, Youtube clips without explanation or analysis provided technical answers to everything. In the mean time I am waiting to hear who this national authority is and what he says the S&W fix is! Maybe they made it a single shot?

I guess it is a good thing they never made a .460 Weatherby BAR at less than 10 lbs or it would be a manufacturers defect whether any mechanism ever failed or not!

GF.

06-07-2010, 02:59 PM

could be but never heard of this happening with any other revolver... have you?

I think JAH got it right. This thing is just too freakin' powerful for most people to manage. Think about it - there is an upper limit to how much recoil a person can hang onto, and that round is over the line.

Interesting, too - you notice that lean, mean fighting machine in the red tee-shirt got doubled on his third shot, at which point the whole rig had been lightened by either 800 or 1200 grains, depending on how you look at it. That's a large increment of weight, relatively speaking, so the recoil was coming at the shooter a might more briskly at that point, making the revolver harder to manage and therefore (IMO) raising the likelihood that a mishap would occur.

swamp

06-07-2010, 03:42 PM

Altjaeger

06-07-2010, 08:46 PM

GF, ...Jeff of gunblast.com stated in his review that a problem occurred with the cylinder rotating backwards upon firing with the heavier 440 grain loads and was fixed with a heavier cylinder stop spring.. see link below

http://www.gunblast.com/SW_500.htm

Interesting that the grip of the shooter still was identified as a causative factor. I might also question his ability to make such an analysis without a frame by frame review which may have been done and left unstated. Still I will not call his claims false, but will await confirmation from a second source.

GF.

06-09-2010, 01:01 PM

I guess I’m going to have to put a little ignorance on display here and say that I’m not sure what he means by saying that the cylinder was ‘rotating backwards”…

Given a simplistic understanding, a guy might interpret that to mean that the ‘empty’ cylinder becomes next in line, in which case a DA cycle would put a spent case under the hammer, which would be less than conducive to a double-tap. :hmmmm:

In any case, interesting that he noticed that the locked-elbows deathgrip seems to exacerbate the problem – totally in keeping with what I noticed earlier about the women who were being propped up from behind.

But I had a thought the other day… No, I’ve never heard of any other revolver doing, and Smith has made an awful lot of revolvers without encountering this problem in the past… So either they departed from their standard designs enough to create themselves a design defect, or they significantly underengineered some critical component (though, again, I’m not clear what role that particular spring might play) or maybe, just maybe, it’s operator error…

Even your Gun Blast guy said that the too-tight grip seemed to be important to his observations, so you factor in inexperience and fear of the recoil and you get some people choking the snot out of this thing, which is evidently causing issues.

Even so – is it a design defect when people who have no business firing a weapon like this have ADs? You know what they say about ‘foolproof’ and someone going out and building a better fool….