How high is safe?

[bill m]

There has been a couple of other forums that I spend a little time at. One in particular, it seems like I am the only conservative loader on the page. At least it seems that way sometimes.
I have never talked with so many people who seem to think that load data is just a general guide. Sometimes it seems like the attitude is "Take it or leave it".
I don't spend much time on that reload forum because I just don't have anything to share.
I believe that the data is important; not something to set aside because you want your 30-06 to have 300mag velocity.
My years reloading certainly are not measured in scores. And the amount of calibers that I load are in the ten range. But I have had success in all of those calibers finding the load combo that give all that I could expect from my cartridge. And I never had to go "over" to get it.
I am grateful to all of the wildcatters out there that took risks to bring us the selection that we have to chose from today. But I think of them as being a little different than most. Certainly they have some skills that I don't have. That's probably why they live through it and we end up with another caliber to look at. Maybe they go through a lot of assistants? :hmmmm2:
I never recommend to anyone to go beyond the limits of data. When I hear senior posters coaching young reloaders on "how much over" is safe, my skin kind of crawls. Remember that I am talking about another forum.
I just wonder if I am too conservative? Am I more rigid than I need to be. I mean, it works for me. But I sense some kind of violation when I hear the talk that I just mentioned. So I wonder if I'm over reacting.
I'm a big boy. I can handle opinions. After all, I'm asking for them.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks, Bill

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Powder makers, Bullet makers, Rifle makers, etc. all publish loading/reloading data for a reason. It is a science not alchemy. They all try for precision and accuracy in recording and disseminating their data for our use. There have always been those who push the established edges of the scientific envelope in any field. Sometimes they fly in the face of God. Sometimes God is merciful and tolerant of fools. That about sums up my views.

Alan

[Badger]

bill m,

HIGH powder charges are not worth spit! A few fools go to the "RED LINE" and beyond for whatever reason. As an old reloader, I say we reach the Accuracy Load long BEFORE the Max Loads. IF any numb nuts wants to "Add More Powder", I hope that idiot is 6 benches away from me at the range.

Badger

[GF.]

There are those who learn by reading books.

There are those who learn from watching the mistakes of others.

And there are those who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves....

JMO, there are already more than enough cartridges out there that are fully capable of producing more 'power' than most human bodies can withstand, and they do it at SAFE pressures. Therefore, it seems to me that these self-styled 'wildcatters' are declaring themselves immune from the laws of physics and the limitations of metallurgy in order to achieve something that has already been done - safer and better - by somebody else who had a whole hell of a lot better idea what he was attempting.

So... What do they stand to gain?

And what do they stand to lose????

Like somebody once said, there's no sense winning a Stupid contest just because you know how. :hmmmm:

[bill m]

Man, that is a great summation, Badger!
It is about much more than personal safety. It's about the safety of the people that are all around you.
I really enjoy range work. And I do watch the people that are shooting next to me. Unfortunately, I will never know if they are safe loaders until something goes wrong.

[purple heart]

Hey Bill, there's always going to be people that push the envelope no matter what they're doing.
It's been my experience that the most accurate loads were below max. That also saves on trimming
brass so often and the life expectincy of the brass.
Some people run into problems when they take just one manual, especially an older one, and go by
the published loads when the test gun or barrel is totally different than the one they're using.
If you have a gun with a 22 inch barrel and try to get velocity readings like the 26 inch test barrel the book used
you could be in for trouble.
Like badger said" I like to keep those people way away at the range.

[Gil Martin]

I never load anywhere near maximum loads. Most of my reloads are about the mid-point of most reloading data. Works for me. All the best...
Gil

[Phil T]

Some of the data in loading manuals stops short of the point where the pressures become erratic. The average may be below the maximim allowed, but some of the higher pressured individual rounds exceed the max allowed.

[bill m]

Not being picky. But your comment makes no sense to me.

I would think that load data should stop before pressures become erratic. Don't you think?

How do you define "Average"? It may be below the maximum allowed....ok. I'm missing the point.

"Some higher pressured individual rounds exceed the max load. What does that mean?

I really am interested in understanding what you are trying to say. Can you give it another try?

Thanks.

[southtexas]

count me among the conservatives. If you want a 300mag, get one, don't try to make your 30/06 a 300Mag. Just don't make sense to take chances with 50K psi, that close to your face.

[Ol` Joe]

Not being picky. But your comment makes no sense to me.

I would think that load data should stop before pressures become erratic. Don't you think?

How do you define "Average"? It may be below the maximum allowed....ok. I'm missing the point.

"Some higher pressured individual rounds exceed the max load. What does that mean?

I really am interested in understanding what you are trying to say. Can you give it another try?

Thanks.

I`m not the poster you are questioning but I think I can help.
There are three SAAMI pressure figures that are used in developing load data or ammunition by the ammo companies.
1- MAP or Maximum Average Pressure
2- MPLM or Maximum Probable Lot Mean
3- MPSM or Maximum Probable Sample Mean
The MAP is the number we see in our manual as the SAAMI max pressure. The MPLM is the result of adding 2 units of error to the MAP. The units of error are calculated by dividing the standard deviation of the sample by the square root of the sample size.
The MPSM is for most purposes the max single pressure allowed.

The MPLM is important to the load developers as it is the highest pressure average that a load can expected to produce and still fit SAAMI guide lines. The MPSM is in some cases the reason we see max pressure in the manuals as 3-4K below the SAAMI MAP. They found a pressure reading to exceed this in tests and backed off the load. This is where the term “spiked” can come into play. The other main reason for sub max pressures in the books max loads are the use of powders that fill the case before there is enough to raise pressure to the max amount. The use of slightly faster powders cures this.
There is a bit more then this in SAAMI standards for pressure, bullet wt & velocity are a part too.
A example of SAAMI specs a lab might follow when developing a load could look similar to this”

Cartridge-------------Vel/fps-----------MAP/psi-------------MPLM/psi-------------MPSM/psi
30/06-----------------2900---------------60000----------------61500------------------63800
These are by the way the actual SAAMI numbers for the `06 with 150 gr bullet.

As to the original posters question. I think a lot of handloaders look at a rifle as being able to handle the highest pressure cartridge it is chambered in. They also look at the pressure SAAMI allows for their cartridge. If the cartridge is like the `06 and the MAP is 60K, lower then the MAP of say a 300 win mag at 65K, and they look at the fact they are both chambered in the same rifle and it can stand the pressure of the more powerful cartridge safely it raises questions on the true max the cartridge can be loaded to. The brass is also a part of the pressure containment question but we all know the 30-06 case is the same as a 270 case just a difference in neck diameter and 270 is also a 65K MAP cartridge it starts to make sense that we can safely raise the pressures in our 30-06 to the same 65K level and be safe doing it.
True we don`t know when we are there or if the pressures are exceeding the MPSM without proper equipment such as a Oehler M43 or RSI Pressure Trace. Cautious increases in charge though can allow us to see that problems are arising with out “blowing up” our rifle. Normally pressures in the 70K range will cause cratered and leaky primers, the same signs the books tell us to watch for and back off from. Excessive head expansion is also a sign to watch, primer pockets expand along with the case head and will become loose with a couple firing of too hot a load.
The experienced handloader that exceeds the book knows if he sees any signs he must back off. He also realizes he isn`t gaining much velocity. In the case of the 06 he might stop at the 65K of the 270 win and be 5K over the 30-06 SAAMI std but still within safe limits of rifle and brass.
I don`t recommend anyone exceed the book max. I just offered this as a possible explanation of why and how some think that do it.

[bill m]

Good read Ol' Joe. Thanks.
Your final analysis looks like mine just the same.
If people who load like that would never shoot them right next to me, I'd submit to free will.

[Shipster]

I think some of you guys are forgetting that a rifle chambered in 30-06 in a Remington 700 is not the same as a 30-06 chambered in a Winchester or any other Brand. Every chamber or barrel is different. Even those made by the same company. There are too many variables in reloading to just stamp that if you are reloading beyond what some bullet manufacturer or powder company stamps as a max load is an idiot, well fine, but I let my rifles tell me where my max load is and then I work down from there. Remember not all 350 Chevys are created equal and neither are rifles chambered in 30-06 or any other caliber.

Shipster

[bill m]

Never intended to give an impression that anyone is an idiot. Sorry if that was sensed.
We're not forgetting that Remington chamberings aren't the same as Winchester. But that's a great reason not to buy a Remington.
That was a joke...
I do get what you're saying. Thanks.
And welcome to the forums!

[Shipster]

Your right bill m That is a good reason not to buy a Remington, plus a list of other reasons that I won't go into. :flute: :cool1: And thanks for the welcome. :ciao: