European Scopes

[AK-49]

Has anyone found a comprehensive review comparing the top European scopes against each other... Swarovski, Kahles, Leica, Zeiss, S&B... not sure if Leica is making rifle scopes now are not.

[Herne]

I've used S&B Zeiss and Swarovski. And Kahles and Docter.

I didn't know that Leica ever made scopes. Binos yes, but not scopes?

S&B are very good, German or Hungarian. Swarovski are very good. Zeiss are good so long as your eye is dead centre as the light goes down. If not the eye centralising doohickey makes it black out which is a PITA if you hunt as late as we do.Its a particular internal geometry designed to reduce parallax errors and improve accuracy. Bloody nuisance - once its gone its almost impossible to re-acquire the target! (only ever bought one of them and sold it pretty quick, since wages and reputation depended on being able to kill deer).

Kahles and Docter are both budget brands (Kahles being owned by Swaro), and Zeiss had a budget line sold in the US. Kahles and Docter are OK I suppose. The edge definition and late evening performance isn't a patch on the main brands. The only thing you can say about them is that you cannot go back. Once you have used the real McCoy, you just cannot live with the cheaper two. I believed a gunsmith who said you could - so someone got a very good deal on an almost new Docter, and I went back to S&B - better deal than Swaros at the time, but a Swaro would have been equally good.(Expensive little exercise)

[AK-49]

Herne, how does Swarovski's 1 inch American line compare to their 30MM PH line of scopes. Thinking of putting a Swarovski 1 inch scope on that HS Precision once I get it.

[Herne]

I can't help in detail, but most of the top manufacturers have kept (did keep) their 1"/25mm tubes for fixed power, and the 30mm, which gives a great deal more area, for varipowers.

As far as I know, and am willing ot be corrected, there is no great difference in actual optical performance. Sharpness edge definition and the like. The difference comes in light transmission. So if you are looking to save weight on a sheep rifle - animals which are essentially diurnal, and late evening performance is not such a factor, then the smaller tube won't show a disadvantage.

Start trying to use the same scope for night adapted animals, like deer, which use the late evening, and you would certainly have problems compared to the 30mm tube. Depends on your last shooting time of course. (Though with that class of glass showing such high image contrast which is really as important than theoretical definition, you will still be a lot better off than with the ordinary coke bottle bottoms in a tube that most manufacturers churn out.

Or you could go for a 6x or 8x fixed in a 25mm tube and then you know you'll be fine, day or dark. That was what i did, because everyone I knew either left their varipowers at some fixed value, or fiddled with them at the wrong moment, and I could see no advantage. So I had a fixed 6 S&B on the 6.5 and a fixed 8 on the 270. (25mm tubes) Learn to mount the gun accurately and they line up perfectly easily and quickly, and I never looked back, near or far.

[AK-49]

the Swarovski PH line use 4 coil springs to hold the reticle errector in place but I don't know if the Swarovski American 1 inch line of scopes uses the coil springs (which are said to be better) or leaf springs. Does anyone know ?

[Bushman]

All I know is what I see. I have always been a variable guy and figure that I have it enough together not to fiddle with them at the wrong time. I'm a dark to dark deer and elk hunter and often as not I'll be in some dark piece of security cover at first and last legal light. My western rifle wore a Leupold 2.5-8x36 Vari-X III for a lot of years for it's compact size. Not any more as I have seen the light and it now has a Swarvoski 2.5-10x42 PH 30mm on it. Still fairly compact and lighter in weight than a S&B 30mm would have been. Early on I was pretty pleased with a 1.5-5x20 Leupold Vari-X III on my deer hunting rifles and my M99 .300 Savage still wears one with a heavy duplex which I rather like. That scope preference changed when I went to a Zeiss ZM/Z 1.5-6x42 30mm scope for my deer hunting. I was so pleased with that scope in low light that I bought another improved version called the 1.5-6x42 VM/V and those two scopes are on my #1 and #2 deer rifles. It is the quality of the glass and the coatings that transmit light through a scope, not so much the 1" or 30mm tube size. My rational for looking at the Euro scopes in the first place was in knowing that they hunt later into the evening than what we do. In good light take your pick of near any of the quality scopes out there, in low light like what you get in a cedar swamp on an over cast evening at last legal light when the big guys are on their feet, that is where those Euro scopes shine. Almost good enough was never good enough for me and my deer hunting equipment. I see no need for a lighted reticle because looking through any of my Euro scopes at last light is like someone is holding a spot light on the target, they are that bright in low light even with those 42mm objectives.

[Herne]

Bushman - I agree. Good glass is expensive over here, but I would never buy a budget scope whatever the maker again, for all the reasons you state.

For my money, S&B, Swarovkski and Zeiss make gunsights. Everyone else puts glass in tubes.

[AK-49]

I found out today that the Swarovski A Line uses leaf springs and not the coil springs, nor does the A line have the same quality of glass as is found in their PH line and in their Z6 line.

BTW... the PH line has been discontinued, the Z6 scopes are now their flagship line of scopes and they are pricy.

[bugsNbows]

Swaro is coming out with a Z-5 (and maybe a Z-3) soon (end of May I heard). They are basically comparable to the Z-6 EXCEPT a). 1 " tubes supposedly b). 5 and 3 zoom ranges respectively c). same glass as Z-6 d). cheaper. I think around $1300 for a typical Z-5 for example.

Also, I have two Swaro AV scopes (3-9 X 36 and 3.5-10 X 42) which are wonderful. Absolutely zero issues. The 36 has the great #4a reticle and the 42 has the (now discontinued) TDS reticle. I highly recommend these "tweener" Swaro models. I also have a Kahles CL 3-9 X 42 which is very good too. However, Kahles split from Swaro and I don't think they currently have a US distributor. If they need warranty service, it s across the pond time.

I heard that Leica is coming out with some nice rifle scope offerings (this October).

Premier Reticles also has some great (but pricey) scopes available.

There are just so many choices.

[DancesWithKnives]

I have the Swaro 1.5-6 x 42mm on my main deer/elk rifle. Like some of those above, I really like the low light performance. That's one key factor that separates the good scopes from the great. As I get older and my vision is poorer, it becomes all the more important. As every year passes I appreciate it more and recall the cost even less.

My reticle preference is a little different than Bushman's, perhaps because his low light vision is better. I find the illuminated reticle very useful. I have the lighted circle and dot (in the middle of heavy crosshairs), which is extremely easy to center on a target. The Swaro brightness control permits you to adjust it to a perfect level for your light conditions.

DWK