I want a new .20 gauge...

[MOGC]

The intended purposes will be small game like rabbit, squirrel, and also to use for a lightweight long trip overland packing turkey gun. New chokes and loads can make the .20 gauge a viable 40 yard gobbler getter and a small frame lightweight shotgun is a bunch easier to pack over hill and dale than a larger, bulkier, heavier .12 gauge.

I was thinking a Remington Wingmaster 870. They list at 6 1/4 pounds with a 26" barrel, which is a tad longer than I really wanted. But the weight is right and that is a tried and true gun that I am very familar with. Then at the local Wal-Mart I ran across a 11-87 Premier Upland Special .20 gauge. A little research says the weight is listed at 6 1/4 pounds. The little 11-87 has a 23" barrel with twin beads on the rib, straight English style grip which is a little different for me but very compact and easy handling. It shouldered nice and naturally. I think I could add a sling and have a compact lightweight gobbler getter with the right choke and load that I could pack for miles on a hot day in the Ozark Mountains. Thoughts are appreciated...

[dave-t.]

I really like my sxs 20g for small game, but I haven't been sold on using it for turkey.

870 or 11-87, I don't think you could go wrong either way. I do like the look of that straight grip though, and if different sized folks may be using the gun that grip may fit everyone pretty well.

I have a buddy that is a turkey hunting fool, several states every year and he spends a lot of time and money chasing them. He went with a youth 870 20g, 21" barrel I think, and he loves how light and compact it is and the way it shoots. I would have never picked that gun for him though, as he is 6'7" and the gun doesn't come close to fitting him in any sort of traditional since.

I'm not normally a fan of autos, but in this case I would go with the 11-87, if not a double of some sort.

[Badger]

MOGC,

A few years ago I bought a Remington 1100 Magnum (3-inch) 20 gauge and use it for everything from grouse to turkey here in PA. I have a few 12 gauge guns that are now used for trap and sporting clays.

Badger

[Altjaeger]

[QUOTE=MOGC;2048 Thoughts are appreciated...[/QUOTE]

What are you waiting for?
:D

[Bushman]

I winced a little when I saw 20 gauge and turkey used in the same sentence. I know that you are head and neck shooting a turkey and they are probably fine for something up close, but I would design for the worst case scenario, not the best case. A 20 gauge 3" load might have the same weight of shot as a 12 gauge 2 3/4" load, but it does not have the same powder/power equivalent and has a longer shot string. Turkey loads are pretty high end loads and I guess that I regard a turkey in the same league as a goose. Big and powerful enough to demand all the power and shot that you can get on them and to me that says at least a 12 gauge 2 3/4" and a 3" would be even better. I've got three 20 gauge guns and nice as they are for grouse and rabbits, I would not take them after turkey.

[Badger]

Bushman,

I hear what you are saying about the 20 gauge; the shot string may be longer than the 12 gauge, but the total 20 load is on the turkey in a milisecond. My patterns are fine for turkey with both gauges.

Badger

[MOGC]

The standard for turkey hunting is to get 80-100+ well distributed pellet strikes in a 10" circle at point of aim at 40 yards. Do that and you have a turkey killer. My wife's little 870 Youth Model .20 gauge with 21" barrel, Indian Creek Black Diamond Strike .555" choke, and Hevi-13 #6's averages 117 hits. That is an easy 40 yard turkey killer. Is it the same as a .12 gauge? Nope, my Benelli M1S90 3" .12 ga. with Indian Creek BDS .665" and Hevi-13 #6's averages over 200 hits. But heck, dead is dead, isn't it? Gobblers at 40 yards won't know they've been killed by a Hevi-13 #6 pellet launched from a .20 gauge at the same velocity as from a .12 gauge, all they'll know is... dead. I know the .12 gauge puts twice as many pellets on target, but really how many are actually needed to effect the kill?

I'm not sure how "shot string" has anything much to do with shooting what is basically a stationary target? I understand the concept as it applies to flying or fast moving targets, but that usually isn't the case in turkey hunting.

[Sabre]

I've bought two 20 gauge 870 Wingmasters in the past 8 years. Both are gone now thankfully... Both were JUNK with a great big capitol J.. Now I have a 20 gauge Browning BPS and am happy with it. Better workmanship overall than either of the Wingmasters with none of the functional glitches. In fact, there are no Remington firearms presently living at my house and I intend to keep it that way from now on.

[Badger]

Sabre,

I hear you about 870 Remingtons. I have seen some in the local gunshop that looked like a plumber built them! They were a "parkerized black" rough finish that would do for my canoe as a boat anchor.

Badger

[Bayrat]

As soon as I read how you intend to use it (no wing shooting) I thought of the youth models also.

I've got two Mossberg Bantum 500's here, and with the thickest Kick-eze pad on them they are not much shorter length of pull than an adult sized gun.

And don't underestimate a good 20 guage with X-full choke and the right shell for turkey. For many years a friend of mine and his wife both used 20 ga's with oridinary field loads of #6 shot. Not one turkey they shot at lived to complain about poor pattern results. Long before all the super-duper chokes and special shells, folks were killing turkeys quite well with field loads of 6's.

All three of my 20 guages, with an x-full choke and 3 inch Winchesters with 1-1/4 of #5, put enough pellets in a turkey head area at 40 yards to kill it a couple of times. With #6's even more so.

Both these Bantums have 22 inch barrels. With the extra large Kick-eze pad, a sling, and butt stock shell holder sleeve, they are 6 -1/2 pounds on a postal scale.

And I agree with the last two posts - I'll pass on the Remington's also.

I love the looks of the old wingmasters, but I find that the top of the comb is too narrow for me to shoot comfortable as long as other makes. And I've seen a few that at the wrong time became single shots when the shell elevator spring broke.

The newer 870's, no way I'd put money into one. Like Badger, I've seen too many that the action was so stiff that grown men had trouble working reloading them.

Badger,
I don't think it's "Parkerizing" like some military guns use. I was told they are bead blasted while in the white then blued, which comes out dull black on a bead textured surface. Thats one of the questions I meant to ask when I was touring the Remington factory last summer.

I did get to chat (yell over noise) a bit with one guy who was stacking the new model shotgun barrels that are threaded into the reciever like Itica deer slayers have. Couldn't make out what model number he said it was with my ear plugs in and all the machineary noise.

Oh well, next time.

Bayrat.

[MOGC]

I have read some bad reviews of current 870 production guns. That really pains me as I have an old 1960's 870 that I cut my teeth on and love dearly. The Wingmaster has always been a favorite of mine. The Express Model is a cheap substitute and really irks me. I like the Browning BPS it is a really nice pumpgun... sorta. Browning needs to put the BPS on a diet, the .20 gauge is overweight by a full pound. I'm not going to pack a 7lb .20 gauge when my .12 gauge Benelli M1S90 weighs the same.

[Bayrat]

Even some of the first express models were better.

Shortly after the express came out I heard that Remington and the union were going head to head. There were rumors of closing down Illion and moving production elsewhere, plus, about that time Remington had to pay out millions for the 870 barrel settlements. And the 700 trigger safety debates were hitting the fan.

Not sure if those events had anything to do with the quality, but the 870 express I was seeing as new ones after that were rough to the point of being tough to get the action open or closed all the way.

The finish I saw on all those new barrels during the tour last summer were far nicer.
Bayrat

[Badger]

Bayrat,

Thanks for the clarification of that "Black Parkerized" 870 finish. Actually, it looked like a paved rough road! I have some OLD 870s that are blued and quality, but that was long ago. My trap gun is a 870TB made in the 1980s.

Badger

[Sabre]

I'd tell you to actually try the 20 ga. BPS. Mine has the 26" barrel and is supposed to weigh 6 lbs. 15 OZ. It may weigh that much {haven't actually weighed it} but it sure doesn't feel like it. In fact, I still had the second Wingmaster I bought {28" barrel} when I got the BPS and I honestly couldn't tell much difference. The 20 ga. BPS is well balanced {better than the 28" Wingmaster} and slim like a 20 ga. should be. It also handles/fits me better than a Wingmaster, so naturally I shoot it better. There have never been any functional disorders with my BPS {can't say the same for either of the Rem's} and they retail for about 100.00 less than a Wingmaster. You know, I'd really like to buy American, but I'll be damned if I'll pay $100.00 more for an inferior product to do it. Remington should be ashamed of themselves.

[Smokey]

I have a couple Wingmasters. One is a 20 gauge but it is over 25 years old and I've never had a problem. It has been used a lot for ducks in Illinois and pheasants in Wisconsin. Have not experienced any problems.

[Bayrat]

One is a 20 gauge but it is over 25 years old and I've never had a problem

I'd agree about the older wingmasters. Up to a point...... and that's if it's going to be shot alot.

Buddy of mine uses a wingmaster for trap. He's had it for about 25 years also. Swapped it over to an 870 trap stock shortly after he got it.

Puts at least 5000 rounds through it each year. He wore out the first two, he's still on his third barrel - the last two being the longer forcing cone 870 comp barrels. And it's one of the single shots I mentioned. The elevator spring broke many years ago and being he doesn't shoot doubles, he never bothered to replace it.

The care taker at the gun club used an old 870 sportsman for all his deer hunting and the occational slug shoot competions. Puts maybe several hundered rounds through it a year. He had to replace the barrel in that one too. Nice gun, but barrel didn't last as long as he had expected.

I've spent alot of time around trap and skeet fields and I've yet to hear of any other make of shotgun that the barrels wore out. Maybe that's why Remington had to shell out millions to settle the barrel claims.

I hope they're doing better now. I'd hate to see such an old, well established company have jobs lost from here to other areas, or worse yet, go under because the bean counters are making 'cheaper' decisions.

Bayrat.

[Smokey]

I've heard some time ago that Mossberg was making the shotgun barrels for Remington. Don't know if that is still the case or if it was even true?

[Twanger]

I bought a Beretta 391 20-ga autoloader, hoping the wife would shoot some skeet with it. It's a soft shooting gun.

Nice to shoot, but I can't find a slug barrel for it anywhere. I've checked all the typical sources, including Beretta.

[Bayrat]

Smokey,

Like Hastings, Mossberg for many years has made "replacement" barrels for the 870, and still offers them on their website and in the back of their catologs.

Fifth catogory down on this page.....

http://www.mossberg.com/products/access.asp?type=barrels&section=access


But I haven't heard anything about them making 'the' barrels that Remington originally puts on the 870s.

Considering all the shotgun barrels I saw being made at Remington last summer .... and that some of the machines being used were obviuosly not new, I don't see why Remington would farm out the work to Mossberg when Mossberg has farmed out some of their own barrel work.

One of my older Mossberg 20 ga barrels is stamped "Made in Mexico".... and the steel is quite excellent by the way. When I reamed the forcing cone and honed and polished it, the steel was nice and consistant. And it gives very consistant patterns - even with chilled shot.

Maybe 'if' there were problems with Remington 870 barrels, Hastings and Mossberg saw a market opening :confused:

Bayrat.

[George Foster]

I have been shooting 870 Wingmasters since '67 and at the present time own two 20ga and a 12ga. This is the first time I have ever heard anything about a barrel wearing out and I have never had a broken part on any of my 870's. In fact for a good 20years I was shooting 5000 rounds a year of Skeet with a pair of 870's 12 & 20ga and never had a bobble. Besides that I hunted grouse and woodcock with them each year and still do for that matter.

[Bayrat]

George,
Problem ones I spoke of are newer models than your 42 year old Wingmaster, and other 870 models were mentioned.

I'd love to have one of the earlier Wingmasters. That and the Winchester 12's are what I think pump guns SHOULD look like. But since they don't fit me without alot of mod's, they would sit above the fireplace where I could look at them .....

....... and I'd catch hell If I put one there ! ;)



Bayrat

[MOGC]

I have a 1962 .12 gauge Wingmaster with the skinny "corncob" forearm and love that old shotgun. I have it worn nearly silver from packing it around. I've killed a lot of game with that old gun over the years. I don't shoot it much anymore, but I know I could pick it up, stuff some shells in it, and go out and it will perform as well today as it did when it was fresh from the factory.

I'm not a competitive clay bird shooter so I am wondering, how do you wear out a shotgun barrel?

[Bayrat]

MOGC
".......... I'm not a competitive clay bird shooter so I am wondering, how do you wear out a shotgun barrel? "

Shoot more than 100 rounds every week......and get one of the thin walled barrels. :mad:

That's how my Friend with the 870 Trap went through barrels. He got it used, and I suspect it was one of the ones made during the "thin barrel" era that DuPont/Remington had made the settlement about back about 15 years ago. Then started using 870 Competion barrels because of their longer forcing cone. They were possably made during that same thin barrel time period.

The following is from a discussion about Remington barrels on another website and supposidly a copy of this was sent along with the settlement checks. I remember it was a topic of discussion on trap and skeet fields for a few weeks when word got out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The lawsuit alleged that the value of the shotguns was reduced because the barrels are not strong enough and sometimes burst in normal use, causing damage to the gun and, in some cases, serious bodily injury. Remington, DuPont and Sporting Goods deny such claims and assert that (1) barrel bursts are extremely rare and occur only when improper ammunition is used, including improperly loaded ammunition generating much greater than normal firing pressure, or when the barrels are obstructed, and (2) the Remington owners' manual and the accompanying firearms safety booklet give full and adequate warning of such hazards. The enclosed check constitutes a compromise of the claim that your shotgun has lost value. The amount is not intended to represent the cost of a new barrel, and you are free to use the money however you wish.

The $17 million fund from which your check is paid is only one part of the settlement. In addition, Remington now makes, and will continue to make, barrels for Model 870, 1100, and 11-87 12-gauge shotguns from a different type of steel, which can withstand higher pressure."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The other friend with the 870 Sportsman got a bulged barrel on one side from shooting Active slugs in a fixed choke IC barrel.

It was one of the real short (about 20 inch long?) barrels.

Anyway, it took him awhile of looking, but he found another barrel that length that was a bit thicker, but also fixed IC. He swore the fixed chokes were better than the newer interchangable choke barrels. All I know is that the thing was deadly acurate shooting Actives with him doing the shooting. And it was light and easy to move through the woods with.

He passed away in 99. At the funeral, I was surprised not to see it in the casket next to him. He dearly loved that gun.

One of his son's still deer hunts with it, but doesn't put 1/10th of the slugs through it the old man did. As far as I know, the newer barrel has held up fine, but, for what it's worth, he switched to using Winchester 1 ounce slugs.

Bayrat.

[Don Wald]

Bayrat,

I'd suggest a Remington M1100LT 20. I bought one and added a 26" vent rib barrel. I've had a lot of luck in the field with that gun.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/DWald_photos/47b7d731b3127ccebb633e3388b10000002.jpg

[Bayrat]

Don,
Your gonna wear out those pegs over the fireplace. :D

Yes, the 1100 would be a choice. Lots of used ones to be had around here in "green country". But, they need to be looked over carefully.

I almost bought one from a local skeet shooter. The magazine tube was worn knife edge thin on the end ! :eek: Some of those tubes didn't hold up to alot of shooting. And, the 1100's were also in with the barrel settlement along with the 870's, and 11-87's.

If I had one I was drooling over, I'd take it to a gunsmith and have the barrel thickness checked for uniformity before I'd buy it. Easy for a smith to do.

Bayrat

[MOGC]

Don,
I would need 3" capability, can't get that with a .20 gauge 1100 can I?

[Sabre]

One other thing I forgot to mention about the BPS 20 gauge. It's the only 20 gauge I know of that comes backbored from the factory. Mine patterns better than any other 20 I've ever owned and I've knocked gobblers stone cold in the dirt repeatedly at 40+ yards with it. Darn thing thinks it's a 12 gauge and I don't think it's any heavier than a 20 gauge 1100.

[MOGC]

If I am going to carry a 7 lb. gun it will be a .12 gauge. A .20 needs to weigh closer to 6 pounds.

[Don Wald]

MOGC,

I believe the M1100 in 20 gauge is 2 3/4" only.

Don

[MOGC]

I didn't think so Don, thus my mention of the 11-87 earlier in the thread.

[Hi Ball]

MO-GC.......Now what are you waiting for, Christmas to arrive early?
I love the Remington semi-auto's in the model 1100 but for a Gobbler Gun, I want a pump gun simply put my man.

The 870 pump is just about bullet proof and in a 20-gauge it will kill a turkey dead! I am not sure about the 40 yds but I know it will do it at 33 yds. Now an old timer once told me that a good turkey gun should put at least 22 pellets into the vitals of that birds head, spine etc. ;):)