Speculation questions

[Rich]

In your opinion, how long were Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

Upon what do you base your, for lack of a better word, assumption?

Were things different outside the Garden of Eden?

[Waidmann]

In your opinion, how long were Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?][/QUOTE

I have no idea, although I don't think it was very long.

[QUOTE]Upon what do you base your, for lack of a better word, assumption?

No babies.



Were things different outside the Garden of Eden?

Yes. I accept Occam's Razor as presuppositional (read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)). In short, it says, "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity." It's commonly understood as "The simplest explanation for a phenomenon is most likely the correct explanation." The Scriptures say that towards the East, in Eden, God planted a Garden, and in the Garden.... If things were the same all over, why plant a garden?

Waidmann

[TinStar]

Had to be different as the Garden is described as guarded when they were booted out.
By reading the desciption it was different than the rest of the world.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

[Waidmann]

So, Rich, what's your take on the three questions?

[ncboman]

Where's Swampman?

He knows the answers to these things.

ncboman

[Rich]

Waidmann,

Most of the time when I ask these types of questions I don’t have an opinion. When you asked me, I had to take several minutes to think about my answers.

In your opinion, how long were Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

Believing God created Adam and Eve fully mature and ready to produce offspring, I was seriously hoping for a biology student to come on here and tell me that after the ovary excretes the ovum it travels down the fallopian tube and arrives in the uterus within X number days and give me that number. Also I was hoping they would tell me how long it takes the sperm to get to wherever it is suppose to fertilize the egg. They would then back track from this and guess Adam sinned prior to this event. They were expelled that day. That’s what I would then believe.

Upon what do you base your, for lack of a better word, assumption?

I base it on the idea that God created the earth to be populated. Therefore He would have created Adam and Eve fertile. God tells us by one man’s sin sin entered the world and spread to all men. From that I surmise Eve was not yet pregnant.

Were things different outside the Garden of Eden?

The only difference outside the Garden of Eden and inside was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life were only in the garden. God told all the animals and birds they would have plants for food. So the animals inside and outside the garden would act the same toward each other. None would have any fear of man.

[ncboman]

God created Adam from dust. God created Eve from Adam.

to me, this suggest Eve at least was created as an infant. I suspect Adam was too.

ncboman

[Herne]

In which case who looked after and fed them? But I agree there is no specific age to them.

As for the Garden of Eden being guarded, - by what or whom?

[Waidmann]

As for the Garden of Eden being guarded, - by what or whom?

And I suppose we could add these questions to that list. Since when, and against whom?

Waidmann

[TinStar]

Gen 3 V-24

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

[Herne]

No Tin. To keep the way is old fashioned English for the road or path to.

So the garden wasn't guarded, just the road is the meaning of the piece (In the sense of protection - like for instance a river keeper). It could also mean to indicate the way.

[TinStar]

Herne,

I think you are the one who is incorrect. Most commentaries I've read said the cheribims guarded the way so that man could not get back in and eat of the Tree of Life. That would have meant his fallen state would have been eternal. Many time there is a little lost in the translation.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

[DaveHawk]

Gen 3 V-24

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

I thought Rich said the garden was destroyed. I wounder how he knew that. He must be talking to sawmpy.

[Herne]

Herne,

I think you are the one who is incorrect. Most commentaries I've read said the cheribims guarded the way so that man could not get back in and eat of the Tree of Life. That would have meant his fallen state would have been eternal. Many time there is a little lost in the translation.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

Tin, I was merely pointing out what the words meant.

But there is an important point at stake. You (anyone generally) cannot say that in this case something is lost in the translation, and then at the next step go deep into some obscure translation to find a meaning to suit? which is a favourite tactic of some (not you in particular)

Quod scripsi scripsi, as Pilate said. What is written is written, and that is what the literalist must stand by.

For me of course it is quite easy - the word of God is contained therein, as is much history and fairy tale, and much has been lost or gained in many translations. So I have no difficulty is finding the truth in the Big Bang, or evolution. They are quite obviously the work of God, and if ever there was proof of the existence of God it is wonders such as those. But the scribblings of a bunch of Goatherds who tell a story of a flood with animals 2x2 - that is merely the limit of their knowledge, and a statement of ignorance of a world beyond the Mesopotamian triangle.

(The flood story is particularly apposite, since it appears quite commonly in Mesopotamian folk lore - and there was a flood there of course and the reasons why known - but it is rarer elsewhere.Which indicates to most that the flood was probably localised? But localised was of course their entire world, and hence the tale in that form. )

Freed from the constraints of the sum of tribal knowledge in the bronze age, at least now each of the wondrous new discoveries can be attributed in full to their creator, rather than limited and demeaned so they are forced fit within the scope of a 4000 year old book. I am surprised that some should so limit their God, for He did not so limit them.

[DaveHawk]

If you say something long enough and listen to BS long enough , the walls begin to break down and you will begin to believe anything.

[Herne]

Fair enough Dave. Tell you what. Square the colour of sunlight as we see it wit the speed of light. (The doppler shift therein as we rotate about the sun) and square that with the Creation being 4-5 thousand years old.

I find it strange that a country such as the USA should spend all that money and time on a project like the Hubble telescope, - can position it, with considerable exactitude to look at stars and to and all, and yet everything it has produced is utterly false. Has to be false, because they are looking at things which are billions of years old. Trivial drivel? Or else the biggest and most expensive practical joke of all time?

BS Dave?

[Rich]

Gen 3 V-24

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

I thought Rich said the garden was destroyed. I wounder how he knew that. He must be talking to sawmpy.


Was the Garden of Eden on the world or not?

"Knowing this frist of all, that in the last days mockers will come with mocking, following after their own lusts and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.' For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the Word of God heavens existed long ago and earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water." Peter 3:4-6

[Herne]

Yes Rich, but with respect that is a completely false argument. Not the facts necessarily - that we are discussing, but the proof or evidence offered.

You are using the subject in question as a proof, which is intellectually inadequate.

Its a bit like saying that Methuselah got to 900 yars old (or wathever) because it says so in the Bible. Therefore, because it says so in the Bible, it is a fact that M got to 900 years (or whatever). You ain't proved squat, merely repeated hte question in another form.

I don't suppose you'd care to be up in court on such an evidential system.

[Indy]

I believe the Eden story is one of the world's greatest metaphors. It describes the change of human culture from one of idyllic hunting and gathering to one of farming, cities, empires, and rulers.

Homo sapiens was intended to live the way we always had. But once we had tasted of the "tree of knowledge," there was no going back to that.

It is interesting to me that most "informed" people consider the change from hunting and gathering to "civilization" to represent progress. Yet we know that it was accompanied by a lessening of stature, presumably worse health, and a huge increase in the work week. All we got for that was the ability to support much larger populations.

Genesis got it right.

So...I'd have to answer that "Adam and Eve" were in the garden for many millenia. I base this opinion on paleoanthropology. The garden was everywhere so it was not different "outside." But once we left, we could never go back or find it again. It was and remains forever guarded by a committee within our heads which tells us the solution to doing the wrong things is to try to do the wrong things harder because whoever dies with the most toys wins.

[Wismon]

Well you can still live out in the woods nekkid if that's what you want. There was a guy who used to post here who would just about do that for a month at a stretch from time to time.