Why wasn't the .300 Savage more popular?

[Bushman]

I was thinking back over lots of years of whitetail deer hunting and asked myself if I could have what muzzle velocity and what foot pounds of energy for the ideal whitetail cartridge, what would it be? 2500-2700 fps and 2200-2400 fpe is what I came up with. I've used a .30-30 and that was okay up close, but I think I would have trouble at longer range. My current #1 and #2 whitetail rifles are a 7mm-08 and a .308 and they work well enough, but are on the plus side of 2700 fps and 2400 fpe number so they can tear up some meat on the way through. I think that the ideal should be at least .27 caliber for a good blood trail and I don't think that more than .30 is needed for deer. Somewhere between the .30-30 and the .308 for mild recoil in a light easy to carry and scope rifle that should reach out well to about 200 yards. When I run those figures into the charts, what comes up is the .300 Savage. Actually my #3 deer rifle, a M99F. Why shouldn't the .300 Savage be more popular than it is?

[Sabre]

I was thinking back over lots of years of whitetail deer hunting and asked myself if I could have what muzzle velocity and what foot pounds of energy for the ideal whitetail cartridge, what would it be? 2500-2700 fps and 2200-2400 fpe is what I came up with. I've used a .30-30 and that was okay up close, but I think I would have trouble at longer range. My current #1 and #2 whitetail rifles are a 7mm-08 and a .308 and they work well enough, but are on the plus side of 2700 fps and 2400 fpe number so they can tear up some meat on the way through. I think that the ideal should be at least .27 caliber for a good blood trail and I don't think that more than .30 is needed for deer. Somewhere between the .30-30 and the .308 for mild recoil in a light easy to carry and scope rifle that should reach out well to about 200 yards. When I run those figures into the charts, what comes up is the .300 Savage. Actually my #3 deer rifle, a M99F. Why shouldn't the .300 Savage be more popular than it is?

The 30-30 works fine out to 200 yards and even beyond. Don't know why today's hunter's underrate it so much. Sighted in 1.8 inches high @ 100 yds. she's dead on @ 150 and only 4.5" down @ 200. Hornady's new Leverevolution ammo shoots considerably flatter and also carries quite a bit more energy downrange {1304 ft lbs @ 200 yds. VS 1046 for 170 gr. Win. Silvertip's} if the regular stuff don't suit ya. I've killed a big pile of deer with my 30-30's at distances from "singe the hair" to a measured 314 yards {one shot kill and a complete passthrough} and have yet to recover a bullet from one.

[Bushman]

The first deer that I every shot stopped a .30-30 bullet broadside from about 50 yards. As much as anything I remember sighting down those old buckhorn open sights of that M64 Win. and even as a 13 year old kid, I knew that I wanted a scope from then on. The Savage hits at 100 yards with what a .30-30 does at the muzzle. Given what I saw personally, I thought that I wanted more power. I know millions of deer have fallen to a .30-30, but I didn't want to find a bullet still in the deer and I did.

[Sabre]

I think it probably depends more on the bullet you used than the cartridge. I've seen a few 30-30 bullets recovered from deer and they were all 150 gr. Win. power points. All were expanded almost to the base and to a very wide mushroom. I'd bet you could stop a soft, easily expanded bullet like that inside a deer even if it were fired 400 fps faster from a .308. Never used power point's in a 30-30 myself. All of mine were shot either with 150 or 170 gr. Remington core-lokt's or 170 gr. Win Silvertips and like I said, I've yet to recover one from a deer. I've stuck with the silvertips exclusively for the past several years because they are very accurate {MOA} out of my scoped Marlin 336 and consistently give me quarter to half dollar sized exit holes even if a shoulder happens to be in the way. The core-lokt's are tougher, expand to a lesser degree and typically leave a smaller {nickel sized} exit in deer. In fact, I once saw a 170 gr. 30-30 core-lokt recovered from just under the off side hide of the ribcage of a large bull moose. Pretty sure it would have exited a "little" 250 lb. deer.

[Altjaeger]

My impression is that it did quiet well until the .308 came along. Not long after that we hit the magnum craze of the late 50s and 60s when faster was better. For those wanting a M99 the .308 and later the .284 was the hot rod. The .300 just could not compete.

I think though from its introduction in the 1930s(?) throught the mid-50s it did quiet well. I remember several among men I knew as a child. Finding a nice one at a reasonable price would be great, but perhaps more fascinating would be a .303 Savage with a couple cases of 190 grain ammo. :)

[Smokey]

The 300 Savage in the model 99 was very popular in PA when I was growing up - quite a while ago. It was in the north central part of the state and most people hunted the mountain sides rather than the tops. Shots at deer were usually not very long. It was a great cartridge for the type of terrain.

At that time the 30-30 was still the most popular caliber. I believe a Win Mod 94 then cost about $65. But if you had a lot of money you could get a 30.06 or .270 for $130 to $150.

[ncboman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/10407Indianartifacts005r.jpg

all these were recovered from deer.

some 30-30 silvertips in there.

ncboman

[Smokey]

Looks like some buckshot and slugs in there too. Never much liked using shotguns for deer but living in Virginia, Illinois, and hunting some parts of SE Pennsylvania you didn't have much choice.

Never was anything wrong with the 30-30. The biggest elk I ever shot went down with one shot from a 30-30 using a 170 gr Silvertip. Was only 30 - 40 yards away.

[ncboman]

.22mags and ML bullets too. :D

I killed a lot of deer with a 30-30, a lot, and have a definate affinity for the lever guns. The good handling just comes naturally for me. I like my winchester a lot.

... that said, an 06 will kill deer not hit right, a 30-30 won't.

I like the 30-30, esp as a starter rifle for my boys, but it's just not in the same league with long action calibers.

no recovered 06 bullets in my collection. :cool:

ncboman

[dave-t.]

30-30 and 30-06 were the deer rifles in my area for as long as I can remember. Around 1988-90's folks started getting more darring .243's, 25-06's and .270's started showing up.


I've seen just one 300 savage in the field. Those m99's were never popular in my part of the midwest.

Probably the main reason was that the 30-30 did it cheaper and the 30-06 did it faster and flatter, and both were available in stock locally.

[Bushman]

Not many rifles carry as well as a lever action M94 or M336. Only the Marlin took a top mounted scope well and to my eye, a scope crippled that portability some. I don't honestly know what bullet I was shooting my first buck with because everything except my underwear was borrowed back in those early days. What sticks in my mind was the hassle of unloading that early Winchester and needing to run every round through the chamber. Also as a starter gun they were cheap, but cold, inexperienced fingers letting down that hammer on the pre-cross bolt safety models was dangerous imo.

Alt, there are quite a few of those .303 Savage M99's around and lots of them are on the used gun rack because finding ammunition is near impossible. At least finding .300 Savage ammo is still doable.

Then I got to thinking maybe it was because the .300 Savage was not chambered in a lot of other rifles other than the Savage line, but Remington had it in their early semi-auto M81A and their slide action M760. Later on it was even in the bolt M700 Classic series. Upstaged by the .308 to be sure in the M99, but what made it such a pleasant round in the light weight M99 made that same rifle into a pretty stout kicker in the .308. A friend of mine bought a M99 in .308 back in the '60's and he didn't like the recoil. When I was growing up I always thought that the lines of a Win. M88 trumped the looks of a Savage M99, but all a guy has to do is carry both of them for a little while and the M99 wins as a one handed carry rifle with that rounded receiver. It sure makes for a nice piece for the close in deer that most of us hunt. I think that it deserves more of a following.

[Sabre]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/10407Indianartifacts005r.jpg

all these were recovered from deer.

some 30-30 silvertips in there.

ncboman

Any 170 grain silvertips in there or just 150's ? The 150's and 170's perform quite a bit differently from what I've been told and I remember you saying in the past that you'd used the 150 silvertips quite a bit. Also, how many were picked out of deer you'd shot lengthwise ? I have no doubt you could stop most .30-30 bullets with a lengthwise hit {and lot's of 270's, 7mm's and .308's etc. etc. too}, though Ray Atkinson claims a 170 gr. core-lokt will shoot through a large muley buck from stern to stem. Never have shot one lengthwise with any .30-30 bullet. Maybe that, combined with my preference for the 170 grain bullet is why I've never recovered one from a deer yet. I tried a Texas heart shot once 30 years ago and vowed never again. That was with a .30-06 and 180 core-lokt and the bullet did not exit. Didn't make it to the lung cavity either but stopped in the liver. So much for the mighty 30-06 and it's fabled ability to shoot lengthwise through deer. I figure if the only shot I have at a deer is in the keister/through guts, I haven't done my hunting very well and the deer gets to walk.

[Altjaeger]

I figure if the only shot I have at a deer is in the keister/through guts, I haven't done my hunting very well and the deer gets to walk.

Agreed. Besides I don't want to clean up the mess.
:(

[Smokey]

It is unfortunate that so many people now have not been exposed to the Savage 99. I agree it is one of the easiest guns to carry for a long period of time in one hand. It was very well made which in truth was it's downfall. I have owned six of these rifles and still have four - 30-30, 250-3000, and two 308's. I foolishly sold two in 300 Savage.

I also agree with Sabre that if your only shot at an elk or deer is through the butt, it is best to let them go. This has happened to me numerous times and I have never regretted it. Sometimes I got them the next day or later the same day. Other times I naver saw them again.

[Don Wald]

Bushman,

I think the buying public let the small ballistic advantage of the .308 Win. over the .300 Sav. influence their decision. That and the fact that the M14 fired the 7.62 NATO cartridge.
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/DWald_photos/SavageM99300Sav.jpg

[Bushman]

Nice M99-EG Don, I don't think that there is any doubt that the .30-06 and the .308 being military cartridges enhanced their reputation in the sporting rifle market segment. That short neck on the .300 Savage does not endear it to the hand-loaders, but aesthetics aside it has pretty nifty ballistics for a deer hunter around here. I was asking myself that same question yesterday. If the .300 Savage is so great, why then is my 7mm-08 and my .308 my #1 and #2 deer rifles? I've only ever shot two deer at over 200 yards and not much over either. There is always that little voice inside that is saying, what if you need to make a really long shot? Do you want a sub-moa bolt action 7mm-08 with a bigger scope or a lever action brush gun? Hindsight says that M99-F would have worked pretty well most of the time, but that is not all the time.

[Smokey]

I have always felt if you were to think of any rifle as a piece of art all you have to do is look at one of Don Wald's photos of the model 99 EG. The lines of these rifles are great.

Bushman - I feel the 99 is capable of making those long shots being chambered in 308 and as some people don't realize the 7mm-08 [although I have never seen one].

The first new rifle I ever bought was a 99DL in 308 which I ordered. It was a big disappointment. You almost needed a paper plate to cover a 5 shot group. My father had the 250-3000 and it was a tack driver. We just could not get the gun to group. After many calls to Savage and after doing everything they said to do, the gun was returned. Four months later it came back with a new barrel and had some other things done to it that I don't recall now. But it shot very well. All my groups were with 150 CL were at or under 1.5 inches. And if I was doing very well at shooting I would get a one inch group now and then.

Just before the model 99 was terminated there was some work done on a long action for chambering it in 30.06 or 270. One of these rifles is in their museum and the other was sold for $6000. Would have been interesting to shoot one of them.

[Bushman]

Interesting to shoot one, but painful probably too. The .30-06 is a pretty good kicker and a M99 stock is not the best design for a lot of recoil. Savage messed around with some strange adaptations and not all of them were recorded very well in the reference books that I have. I was killing time in the collector room at the Cabela's in Richfield, WI. last year and saw the strangest M99 that I ever saw. It was a take down model with a .30-30 barrel. Nothing too unusual about that, but the second barrel in the set of two was a .410 shotgun barrel!!!

I got my own M99 at a collector show when I was looking for a nice piece for my son to use. I was actually looking for a .250-3000, but a guy from Canada was walking around with this M99 over his shoulder for sale and we met in the isles a few times. I remarked that was a nice M99EG that he had there because it looks just like the one in Don's picture. It is nice he said, but it is an early '50's M99F. Knowing that the F stood for featherweight, my interest went way up. Nearly a pound lighter than an EG at 6.5 pounds with that ahead of it's time rotary magazine... What's not to like? I made the sale contingent on my buddy who specializes in used M99's looking it. He had a table set up farther down the show and it was just a good thing that this guy never got to my friend's table or I'd been out of luck. Nice as it is, I'm surprised that it was not gone two isles over where I first saw it. It has a Leupold 1.5-5x20 mat finish scope with the heavy duplex in ultra low mounts on it now. A travesty that it did not get out deer hunting last season.

[SST]

The 300 Savage couldn't compete because the 99 was too expensive to manufacture.

[Bushman]

They did make the M99 in .243, .308 and .358 for a time too. They really cheapened them up in the 60's and 70's. The clip was faster to unload, but those old M99's with the cut checkering and the brass rotary magazine just always looked and felt better to me. Like new used I've only got $380. into my 50's F model, so there are still some bargains around. I think that guys just got caught up in the more is better mindset. If a .300 Savage was good then a .308 was better and then why not go to a .30-06 and what the heck a .300 WM should work still better yet. I borrowed a pre-64 M70 .300 WM and shot about half a dozen deer with it back in my youth. Know what? They didn't fall down any faster than if I had been using something normal.

[ncboman]

Never shot a .300 Savage, but I have shot a .300 Weatherby mag and a .300 Win mag.

The 300 Win mag is a kicker for sure. :D

ncboman

[Bushman]

NCB, I thought that you were a .30-30 guy. #2 son got a good deal on a .300 Weatherby Magnum Vanguard and I went with him to the range the first time that he shot it. The look on his face said it all after that first shot.:eek:

You .30-30 guys. Do you ever look at that rifle and say to yourself I sure would like to be able to shoot farther?

[Bushman]

That .300 Savage and the .300 WM and .300 Weatherby don't belong in the same sentence together.
Muzzle energy with a 180 grain bullet:
.300 Savage....2207
.300 WM.........3501
.300 Wby Mag..3890

What I like about the Savage is that it is right between a .30-30 at 1827 fpe and a .308 with 2743 fpe.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I have a M99 in 300 Savage. It is all of the good things there is to be said about a rifle. Easy to carry, points well, accurate and packs plenty of wallop with my Sierra 150 GKs. It is easily the best shooting rifle in my safe. The 99 is essentially a single shot action with a magazine. The bolt comes forward and slips up locking in as tight as any single shot on the market.

The 300 Savage was the precursor to the 308 Win and was, I believe, briefly considered as the new 30 caliber military round. The 308 won out. I don't mind the short neck at all, although my charging funnel does stick at times. I started using Win Ball Powders and it meters so well that I use my dump to load it. The RCBS 1500 has of course changed all that.

I haven't shot a lot of deer with the 300 Savage but there's really no reason why not other than I was simply carrying something else. I would not hesitate to take a shot out to 250 yards.

There are lots of reasons why particular cartridges do not sell as well as others but therein lies the reason that they are not still around. They didn't sell best. I like mine and if I didn't have one I would get one.

Alan

[kenjs1]

seems like the trend towards higher and higher velocities might finally have crested. Personally I find all the best virtues of the 300, and more, can be found in the 260Rem and heavy for caliber bullets. I am totally enamored right now. Perhaps a 300 Savage would be a reason for getting a model 99 but for my use so would a 250 or 257. The 300 Savage does have me rethinking a 308 though. If my shots are short -ie 'woods gun" -why would I want the extra recoil?

[Smokey]

I have two Model 99's in 308 and don't mind the recoil. I do not see this recoil as bad as most state but I do shoot some guns that do have excessive recoil.

Hopefully I'll run into a 7mm-o8 one of these days in a model 99.

[Altjaeger]

I have two Model 99's in 308 and don't mind the recoil. I do not see this recoil as bad as most state but I do shoot some guns that do have excessive recoil.

Hopefully I'll run into a 7mm-o8 one of these days in a model 99.

You could do as John Wooters did and rebarrel. He had a Winchester M88 rebarreled to 7mm/08 then a custom stock carved that was a full length Mannlicher type stock. It was something to drool over.:)

[kenjs1]

Altjaeger - what are the chances of getting a picture of that? I am trying to get my mind around what that would look like.

[Altjaeger]

Altjaeger - what are the chances of getting a picture of that? I am trying to get my mind around what that would look like.

I am really not sure. He wrote an article on it some 15 or more years ago for Peterson's Hunting about it. Try Google.

[Bushman]

Are we sure that they made a Savage M99 in the 7mm-08? It seems to me that by the time the 7mm-08 was being loaded commercially that the M99's were pretty much out of production. My Gun Traders Guide lists a .284 for the M99 in the M99C and the M99PE, but I'm not seeing a 7mm-08 listed.

Rogue River Rifles puts those high end lever actions together and that might have been who did John's M88. Big dollars to do it as I got their catalog once.

[Bill Gunn]

Found this, but I think I heard they were made in 7mm08 before.

"During its production history the Savage 99 was chambered at one time or another for .303 Savage, .30-30 WCF, .300 Savage, .250 Savage, .22 Hi Power, .22-250 Remington, .243 Winchester, .308 Winchester, .358 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, .284 Winchester, 38-55 WCF, and .32 Winchester Special among others"

"Yes, in 1965, Savage made the model 99C. It was available in the 7mm-08, and is valued higher than the other calibers on this model. "

[Smokey]

Bill, it was also made in 375 Winchester.

The 7mm-08 and the 22-250 were only available in the 99C. These both saw limited production with the 22-250 being the most rare caliber.

[Bushman]

.25-35, .32-40 too. The .32 Special is a surprise along with the .375 Win. and the biggest wow is that .22-250!!! Then again after seeing that .30-30 with the .410 switch barrel in a M99, it looks like they tried lots of chamberings on that M99 platform.

[howdydoit]

I like the 300 savage, and had given serious thought to chambering a rifle in a 6.5/300 savage. I think it would give excellent ballistics and has the room to move some of the heavier for caliber pills with plenty of uumph.

But for a whitetail cartige im not sure you could do better, for an all in one close to mid range, light recoil, and excellent barrel life.

It should have kept up with the 30/30.( another cartridge i really like)

Howdy:cool:

[Bushman]

I think that economics entered into the .300 Savage keeping pace with the .30-30. My buddy who collects and sells M99's told me that when the M99 was competing with the M94 out west, it was the ranch hands that were buying the M94's and the ranch owners that were buying the M99's. The M94 was inexpensive and as such lots of people bought them as their starter deer rifle. What doomed the M99 was the cost of manufacturing. Being a perfect platform for the .300 Savage cartridge, when the M99 went down, it took the .300 Savage cartridge down with it.

[Silvertip]

Bushman,

No , I never look at my .30-30 and wish it could shoot further because I selected it for close up work and that is what it does perfectly. If I'm gonna be hunting where long range may come up I will take my .303 which has no problem reaching out to 300 yards.

cheers,

Silvertip

[Sabre]

Bushman,

No , I never look at my .30-30 and wish it could shoot further because I selected it for close up work and that is what it does perfectly. If I'm gonna be hunting where long range may come up I will take my .303 which has no problem reaching out to 300 yards.

cheers,

Silvertip

I never do either, but then I've been using the .30-30 for nearly 40 years. I know it's trajectory {shot a couple truckloads of woodchucks with the old girl}, accuracy and terminal performance like the contents of my wallet and am confident I can kill ANY deer within 200 yards with one shot. There aren't any fields or power line cuts where I do my hunting these days so the possibility of getting a shot I couldn't handle with my .30-30 are virtually nil. Back when I did hunt where there were open fields {and couldn't afford a bunch of different deer rifles} I killed several deer beyond 200 yards with my .30-30. Never missed or wounded a single one {all those woodchucks helped alot} and the farthest was a measured 314 yards. That 314 yarder was one shot, one kill, the deer didn't go 30 yards after the hit and the bullet passed completely through.

[Smokey]

Sabre, I like that paragraph on the 30-30. I have always felt it was very under rated as a caliber even though when it first came into production it was a caliber that others were compared to. It was much like calibers are compared to the 30.06 today. But then the 30-30 was one of the few smokeless powder cartridges at the time.

I grew up in PA using a 94 in 30-30 and was very successful with it. I never shot a deer at 200 yards with it but the ones I shot went down quickly. I hunted the side hills in Clinton and Potter county and long shots were limited.

One of my best days was when I walked into a small gun shop in Souderton, PA and found a model 99 in 30-30. I quickly traded a pre-64 model 94 and some cash for it. It was in excellent shape and I believe it is a Trapper model - somewhat shorter than the standard model 99.

I carried that rifle a lot, shot a few deer with it, and it is the rifle I always carry when I'm scouting prior to an open season.

Oh, when people talk about 30-30 killing power, I shot my biggest elk with that rifle in New Mexico. A large 6x6 with one shot, a 170 grain silvertip, at fifty yards. The elk fell as soon as it was hit.

[Bill Gunn]

I hunted the side hills in Clinton and Potter county and long shots were limited.

Where in Potter County?
I use to hunt Oswayo, Hebron Center, and Odin for a lot of years.

Also hunted a lot in McKean County

[Smokey]

Potter county is directly east of McKean. Clinton is south of Potter.

[Bushman]

The new issue of Rifle Magazine is all about lever actions and while it does have a nice article about those Savage M99's, it also has an article about the Savage cartridges. Something that I never realized about the .300 Savage until I read that article is that the .300 Savage is the most efficient .30-caliber ever offered commercially. From the article: "By being the most efficient, I mean it still delivers more feet per second per grain of powder than any other .30 caliber. That claim is a tremendous testimony for a cartridge that is nearly 90 years old."

I have to say that when I bought my early 50's era M99F a few years back, I would have wanted it to have been a .308 that day. Since then I have really come to appreciate the .300 Savage cartridge for what it is and it fits beautifully with that lighter weight F model platform.

[Greybeard]

the .300 Savage was popular for awhile but the junior form of magnumitis kind of did it in - the .308 Winchester, and then the real form of magnumitis, the Weatherbys and the Winchesters and the 7mm Remington mag. All of this developed a mentality of speed and "high energy". People became enamored of high velocity regardless of how much powder you needed to get it. Cartriges like the .300 Savage and the .257 Roberts were pushed aside in the minds of Joe Hunter. I didn't read the article you referenced but it apparently hit the nail head on. Did it mention that the Army almost selected it slightly earlier than the .308 for its new military round? Did it mention that the .300 Savage was well ahead of its time as a predacessor of short "magnums" which it would be if the more modern powders were available back then? Well your nice old Savage rifle in .300 Savage is a dandy eastern deer rifle and actually a pretty good western deer rifle. Most mule deer are killed within 200 yards in most of the west. Good for you. Keep on harvesting your bucks with it. They will not know the difference as dead is dead. Greybeard/

[Fuzzball3]

" Why shouldn't the .300 Savage be more popular than it is? "

No secret to it. You can't seperate the cartridge from the rifle, a 99 Savage. When it was new it was "poplular" in wish books but expensive. That was a time when relatively few occasional hunters had the extra loose change to pay much more than a 94 Win or 336 Marlin. Many hunters only had a single or double shotgun for a total arsenal. By the time people had more money to spend the rage was bolts and more powerful cartridges at about the same price as a 99. That continues today.

Personally, I would love to have one of the fine old rotary magazine 99 rifles in .300 or .250 Savage but the prices are far out of line just for nostalgia. So, my lever gun is a old Marlin 336/.35 Rem., love it.

[Bushman]

No flies on that .35/336 combination for most woods hunting either. I had a M141 in .35 Remington for a time myself, then that little voice in my head kept asking what if you see one way out there? Last year's 200 yarder kind of cemented that idea for me. Being a gun guy, I could have probably pulled that shot off with any of my scope sighted deer rifles, but maybe not with that peep sighted M141. You can shoot a close deer with a rifle that shoots far, but you can't shoot a far deer with a rifle that shoots close. It is a travesty to leave that M99F .300 Savage in the gun safe, but the 7mm-08 just fits the bill a little better.