The Future of Antler Point Restrictions?

[venado]

ARs as implemented in many states has been by pure point counts whereas in TX the ARs have been primarily based on a combination of minimum spread and points. I believe the addition of "spread" is an important ingredient.

The record so far in TX has been positive based on hunter feedback and the expansion from the initial areas of 2002 has been dramatic. This is especially so since hunters in the initial counties had to work hard to get the Texas Parks and Wildlife to agree to implement them. After 7 years the TPWL, on their own initiative, have implemented ARs in a significant portion of the state. Those areas where the ARs have been implemented tend toward areas where there are small landowners and a high concentration of hunters. The places where they are not being implemented encompass areas where the landowners have large plots and the hunting pressures are generally much more controlled or those areas where the deer population is limited.

I know that ARs, the point count kind, have been implemented in Arkansas, Alabama, Georgia, Pennsylvania, New York and probably many others that I am not familiar with. It appears from what I have read that the results have been positive from a QDM standpoint, and generally have support of hunters following an initial period where change of any sort had them upset. There are potential problems with point restrictions such as high-grading but offsetting that it appears that the reduced harvest of 1 1/2 yo and 2 1/2 yo deer more than balances it out. Usually coincident with ARs is an increase in the antlerless harvest to attain a more balanced sex ratio which is broadly speaking a QDM priority.

I'd like to read comments on your opinion and experience with ARs in any state where they are currently being applied.

[pepaw]

Venado,
I loved it for short term, but I am really concerned in Leon Co. where there are so many hunters top-ending the buck population. Anything with a rack near 13 inches is in trouble. Especially the dumb 1.5 year olds. Leon Co. was never known for wide racks and I can see this being a county of old, narrow 6-8 pointers which continue to breed the same genes.

In Atascosa and Goliad, a 13 inch rule would really upset me. We kill only mature bucks, and some of them never get much past 13" inside. I prefer a 1 branch anterlered buck / 1 spike limit as opposed to 13" rule.

JMHO

pepaw

[venado]

pepaw, any chance that those hunters were killing those same class bucks before ARs??

[Sabre]

The future doesn't look bright for AR's here in NY thank God. There have been AR's on an experimental basis in three southern NY DMU's for the past several years now. Hunter satisfaction with the results has been very low and as a result DEC has passed a resolution that will make it very difficult to get AR's implemented in any other DMU's.

[Altjaeger]

One of my concerns here is that many I see are obviously mature, but make calling it 13" iffy. My guess is that some never top 13" and few really exceed 15" make calls in the field difficult and questionable.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

My thoughts are as they have been for a while now. ARs are, it seems, the best game in town in regards to forced QDM. So, Hunter A knocks off a buck that looks 13 but it turns out it was a 12. Does he become an outlaw because he leaves it lay because he doesn't want to take the chance on getting caught or does he become an outlaw when he decides to take the chance on getting it on ice. Does he have to keep the horns as evidence of sex or can he give them away and take his quartered carcass home. He became an out law when he pulled the trigger. The only honorable thing for him to do is turn himself and the deer in to the nearest game warden and take the consequences of shooting a buck who's antlers were too close together.

I hardly see the logic in this. When the State begins putting more and more restrictions on any activity it opens up opportunities for people to cross that "illegal" line which then requires increased enforcement and the circle widens.

I'm all for Game management but I find any kind of ARs to be very arbitrary.

But

As long as hunters refuse to educate themselves on aging deer and on insisting on shooting bucks instead of does for meat and as long as the horns are what everybody wants then it's going to have to be the horns that make the call on making the shot. Ever see anybody age a doe before the shot? Hell no. Most guys only shoot does because they have to and they do it with total indiscretion. A few that I have heard on this board do try to pick and choose but there is as much controversy as to whether to shoot young does or old does as there is in the buck issue. In order to adequately manage a deer herd on a Statewide basis the greater majority of hunters would have to be very "up" on Whitetail social structure and carrying capacities of the particular areas that they hunt in. This is nearly impossible, primarily because most hunters simply do not care. They want their bucks and they'll shoot does if someone's watching.

Even if the schooling was there it would still require State enforced regulations to make it work. So what do we do we stick a 13" spread or unbranched antler on them and call it Game Management. I've been saying all along that there are plenty of mature deer that will never make 13 inches. They're eating food and stressing the herd during the rut.

Now if the ARs had some stipulation for shooting those mature(ing) yet narrow racked bucks the would gain an advocate in me.

Alan

[Altjaeger]

I took the Hunter Safety Course with my boy last fall out at Ft Hood. The instructor told me that the gamewarden had ticketed people that brought in deer between 12" and 13". I don't pretend I could judge that difference at a 100 yards under field conditions and would not subject the boy to having to turn down a shot of what was likely a legal deer, but not sure.

No system is perfect and I recognize some promising young bucks would be killed, but I am turning more to a minimum points rule such as 4 points on one side. It is much more clear as to right or wrong. I am sure some promising young bucks are killed now.

[Laturkeyhtr]

I am sure some promising young bucks are killed now.


Before QDM, there were many promising young bucks being killed too. Now with and form of AR's there are some quality deer being left for the future. In most cases the AR's should be set to protect a particular age class such as 1.5-2.5. I can agree with Alan in that there should be some mechanism in place to permit the removal of older bucks that don't meet the criteria, but then that will become a crutch for some as they "thought" it was older.

BTW, Alan, glad to see you showing back up. :)

[pepaw]

Venado, I am having trouble because of the few survivors I am seeing from last years excellent crop of young bucks.

Yes, they were killing most of the bucks before. But before we actually saw a few racked deer survive because the hunters has already decked a young 4 or 5 point and went home. Now those hunters must wait on one of the few wider racks and take a bonus 1.5 year old spike who might have amounted to a decent deer. Same number of hunters, few forked racked legal targets.

pepaw

[txm]

I doubt that it will remain in effect long term.
While it is working to improve the age structure it is resulting in fewer license sales.
Many occasional hunters don’t care to need to look a deer over that closely and many hunt one or two days per year and don’t have the time.
They pay the same as a hunter that hunts every week.
License sales are more important than improved quality overall.
When the budget starts hurting, I think that they will go away.

[Sabre]

I doubt that it will remain in effect long term.
While it is working to improve the age structure it is resulting in fewer license sales.
Many occasional hunters don’t care to need to look a deer over that closely and many hunt one or two days per year and don’t have the time.
They pay the same as a hunter that hunts every week.
License sales are more important than improved quality overall.
When the budget starts hurting, I think that they will go away.

Same thing happened here. Your average Joe hunter doesn't have alot of time to hunt and just wants to kill an antlered buck, any antlered buck. Like it or not the QDM crowd has tried to shove their values down average Joe's throat and he's gagging on it. I've heard lot's of average hunter's complain that they only saw one buck all season and couldn't pull the trigger because it didn't meet the four point rule. This happens two or three seasons in a row and average Joe gets pissed and quits buying a license.

[venado]

TXM, goes with the old adage, "follow the money", usually right, but after a few years I'll bet there is a big stink if they try to take away ARs...!! Again it will mean "CHANGE"....boooo:mad:

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Again it will mean "CHANGE"

I don't normally HATE words, but that one is Grating on every nerve I've got!

Alan

[Laturkeyhtr]

This happens two or three seasons in a row and average Joe gets pissed and quits buying a license.


Sabre, I imagine that you will disagree, but as I see it, within a year or two, QDM will provide opportunity at a legal buck. From then on it should only get better.

[Sabre]

Sabre, I imagine that you will disagree, but as I see it, within a year or two, QDM will provide opportunity at a legal buck. From then on it should only get better.

No I don't agree because I've heard the complaints from hunters that have gone 2-3 years without sighting a legal buck first hand. These complaints were heard by me at the end of last season and the program has been going on in those previously mentioned DMU's for at least 3 or 4 years now. {forget exactly} One thing you out-o-staters need to realize. Our gun season is only three weeks long. Many hunters only have weekends to hunt. We don't have the huge deer herds that many of you are used to in most areas of NY. You'd find it's not so easy to see multiple bucks in a season {and sometimes not even one} if you only had say five or six days to hunt in an area where there were only 15 deer per square mile of densely forrested habitat, and the ratio of does to antlered bucks was 6-1. Unless you hunt in the over populated {well above ideal carrying capacity} area's of Western NY, the finger lakes region or the city suburbs where deer numbers can run from 50 to as high as 100 per square mile, you aren't likely to get to look over many bucks in a whole season in NY.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Sabre, I could be wrong as I read over your post. I may have a hard timeconceiving hunting an area with such low density. However, I am not sure I understand either a hunter that has to hunt and is so stricken by "must kill a buck" to define a good season.

[postoak]

I don't know about the future of ARs. The situation I hunt is a national forest broken into about 30 sections. Each section is surrounded by 1-5 acre hillbilly homesites. These people don't obey the game laws now, generally, and this is another one they won't obey. So, the chances of a buck growing up to where I can shoot it just got slimmer, since my county just went to the ARs. :mad:

[Bill Gunn]

I've had people that live/hunt in the super heavily forested areas (read:: "no food for deer") of the Adirondack Mountains in NY, and have hunted in the Western area of NY tell me... " In your area it's nice to get a 2 or 3 deer each season, in our area, it's nice to SEE a deer in a season".

It was like that when I hunted a large tract of private land near Newcomb NY. One year a large group of very dedicated bow hunters put in 625 hours of hunting, in the first year that the area was open to hunting..... and only one fawn was spotted.

[postoak]

Wow, Bill, they really WERE dedicated.

[Sabre]

Sabre, I could be wrong as I read over your post. I may have a hard timeconceiving hunting an area with such low density. However, I am not sure I understand either a hunter that has to hunt and is so stricken by "must kill a buck" to define a good season.

Because to many of us hunting is still about putting in the winter's meat supply, not putting another set of trophy antlers on the wall to stroke our ego. In other words, to me and many others, the main objective in hunting is to kill game. Not play deer farmer and raise a good antler crop. I've got more antlers than I could ever eat already. Once your walls are covered I haven't found them terribly useful.

[venado]

I don't believe I understand how ARs reduces the number of bucks that are SEEN. I assume that those bucks that did not get killed in one year are there for the next year with the exception of natural mortality. If that is correct, only Herd Reduction would result in unhappy hunters after year one not AR.

Seeing is not killing of course and I do recognize that if killing a deer is the highest priority for a person that one might be frustrated that first year. It is important to recognize that ARs as established by most state agencies are intended for herd balance purposes and not "trophy" purposes even though their "trophy" potential improves with age.

[Sabre]

I don't believe I understand how ARs reduces the number of bucks that are SEEN. I assume that those bucks that did not get killed in one year are there for the next year with the exception of natural mortality. If that is correct, only Herd Reduction would result in unhappy hunters after year one not AR.

Seeing is not killing of course and I do recognize that if killing a deer is the highest priority for a person that one might be frustrated that first year. It is important to recognize that ARs as established by most state agencies are intended for herd balance purposes and not "trophy" purposes even though their "trophy" potential improves with age.
Ah yes, but "Seen" bucks make very poor stew compared to dead ones and antler restrictions make it much harder to kill a buck. Why ? Because you can't pull the trigger until you're SURE of a point count. In your open country it may be relatively easy to get an accurate point count, particularly if hunting from an elevated stand, but in heavy cover, particularly if still hunting or doing drives from the ground, it can be very difficult. When you know that buck you see slipping through heavy cover may well be the only one you'll see all season, counting points is the last thing you want to be wasting time on.

[Herne]

Sabre- I can see your point but...

Its all a matter of what you get used to. We have places where you can come across 3 different species of deer, and there are two different seasons, and for one of the species, buck and doe seasons do not overlap.

Further, and this was on military land, there was a rigorous QDM programme in place, where you worked not on points, but were expected to age males so you culled out poorer ones. Not a case of 2 points a side - legal - shoot. Rather it was good for his age - keep. Poor for his age - shoot. mistake - get bollocked rigid by the Deer Manager

And actually you get used to it quite quickly, and you make your stew from does. Altjaeger has had to do the same thing, LA has been out with me in varying country, and it doesn't hold you back, really. It does make you a better deer man, and a much better hunter

[Sabre]

Sabre- I can see your point but...

Its all a matter of what you get used to. We have places where you can come across 3 different species of deer, and there are two different seasons, and for one of the species, buck and doe seasons do not overlap.

Further, and this was on military land, there was a rigorous QDM programme in place, where you worked not on points, but were expected to age males so you culled out poorer ones. Not a case of 2 points a side - legal - shoot. Rather it was good for his age - keep. Poor for his age - shoot. mistake - get bollocked rigid by the Deer Manager

And actually you get used to it quite quickly, and you make your stew from does. Altjaeger has had to do the same thing, LA has been out with me in varying country, and it doesn't hold you back, really. It does make you a better deer man, and a much better hunter

Fine except, as I've explained before ,you don't get to shoot does in many areas of NY at all, so it's buck or nothing. In my area, most years you can get a doe tag but some years you can't. It's nothing you can count on from year to year. Pretty lousy stew with no meat if you ask me.

[Herne]

Fair point.

But. -- there is not a lot of point in shooting all ones youngsters. Less in shooting all the matures. ARS of some sort are all OK to ensure htat youngsters grow up, but hte effect will break down if hunting pressure is so severe that, by following ARs all you do is put the load onto a more necessary part of the population - the breeding mature animals.

That way all you do is shift the breeding age!

However, it also has to be accepted that there is a penalty to living in a highly populated area. You end up with a lot of people who want to hunt, less spaces for deer to live in, less spaces where you can hunt, and the jam is spread thinner.

If you want to hunt, then you need to live in an area of rich farmland, with plenty of broken rolling ground which creates lots of copses and small woodlands close to food for the deer. Also not too cold winters for winter kill and not too dry summers for good doe lactation and recovery from pregnancy.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Sabre you stated:
Because to many of us hunting is still about putting in the winter's meat supply, not putting another set of trophy antlers on the wall to stroke our ego. In other words, to me and many others, the main objective in hunting is to kill game. Not play deer farmer and raise a good antler crop. I've got more antlers than I could ever eat already. Once your walls are covered I haven't found them terribly useful.


The problem I have with that comment is many of the complainers are always talking about killing "their buck". If meat hunting was their intention, then it would seem that the overpopulation of does would fit their bill very nicely, but it has always been about "getting their buck". Am I wrong?

[southtexas]

If you want to hunt, then you need to live in an area of rich farmland, with plenty of broken rolling ground which creates lots of copses and small woodlands close to food for the deer. Also not too cold winters for winter kill and not too dry summers for good doe lactation and recovery from pregnancy.


Herne: I agree that you have described an ideal environment for deer. But it's not the ONLY environment where one can find good hunting. E.g, the hill country of central Texas is known for good hunting (albeit some what small critters) and the brush country of south Texas is fairly well know as a good hunting area. And neither of them fit your description very well;)!

[Sabre]

Sabre you stated:

The problem I have with that comment is many of the complainers are always talking about killing "their buck". If meat hunting was their intention, then it would seem that the overpopulation of does would fit their bill very nicely, but it has always been about "getting their buck". Am I wrong?

In some areas I'm sure that's true. However, in areas where does are simply not legal game {large portions of NY actually} it's either an antlered buck or tag soup.

[Sabre]

Fair point.

But. -- there is not a lot of point in shooting all ones youngsters. Less in shooting all the matures. ARS of some sort are all OK to ensure htat youngsters grow up, but hte effect will break down if hunting pressure is so severe that, by following ARs all you do is put the load onto a more necessary part of the population - the breeding mature animals.

That way all you do is shift the breeding age!

However, it also has to be accepted that there is a penalty to living in a highly populated area. You end up with a lot of people who want to hunt, less spaces for deer to live in, less spaces where you can hunt, and the jam is spread thinner.

If you want to hunt, then you need to live in an area of rich farmland, with plenty of broken rolling ground which creates lots of copses and small woodlands close to food for the deer. Also not too cold winters for winter kill and not too dry summers for good doe lactation and recovery from pregnancy.

I also agree with your assessment of ideal deer habitat. There are areas just like you describe in NY. Unfortunately, if all the hunters in NY tried to live and hunt in the farming areas there wouldn't be room to swing a dead cat without hitting another hunter. Much of NY is mature forrest/wilderness with very low deer numbers due to it being poor deer habitat. Couple that with severe winter weather that causes significant winterkill some years and we simply don't have an excess of does to harvest in large portions of the state.

[Herne]

Sabre - this is true A lot of people think woodland is good deer habitat. Well in severe winters conifers are good winter cover, but much woodland, unless it is well coppiced is pretty poor feed except for short spells. And even if it has been coppiced, it still needs grass lands for hedges, browse and crops.

And if you have that sort of stuff- its easy to have a high deer density, and good quality.

Not that we are having an argument, but that's how in this area of Dorset, we get away with it. As an example when Mike came over, as I recall, one afternoon we saw (albeit in doe season) over 20 deer in one afternoon on a single 350 acre farm, two or three were good bucks, one was a gold medal which is 200B&C class for its type. And Mike sat in a swamp to get his doe. Wet arse to make him feel he'd achieved something!!

No, I have a lot of sympathy for the hunting enthusiast who lives in difficult terrain with low numbers - and that REALLY punishes the smallest mistake. How newbies keep up their enthusiasm I don't know. And I can quite see why ARs don't have overmuch charm!!!

ST - I agree that sort of country isn't the only country, and I love stalking on the open bare areas of down land (reminiscent of Tasunkawitkos prarie photos) where you have no cover except hollows in the ground. Obviously deer numbers are much lower per sq mile, but paradoxically very often they are easier to find. You can see them for a start, (so every hunt is a stalk, in that you know you are going for something) and they tend to use the same hollows in the same wind directions because thats the ONLY shelter. Hedges aren't really dense enough, and the wind really sweeps across it. Long crawls on ones belly and long shots.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Herne/BEREDOWN.jpg

Typical winter crops on open downland using the spot and stalk technique. The deer are there - follow the big hedge out into the mid distance and halfway out in that open field are 5. Beyond the sugar beet, just under the tip of the upper twig going out to the right. About 8-900 yards out and you have to come down the hill and then up and over a little roll in plain view to get a 200 yard shot. They don't show too well, but its a grand stalk - boundary is the RH hedge which you can't cross, so its a challenge. One of my most favourite and successful places.

But, broken ground, good feed, hedges and copses you do get the numbers, and you have an approach. Every field is another hunt on its own. Out of choice - the field country, which Mike has seen. Its not as easy to use as it may seem, but if you can use it (and very often you do get very close) it is good fun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Herne/SV-Newmans-Farm-4-3-04.jpg

This is a crosswind approach along a hedge. You can see the doe lying up at 50 odd yards, just. High neck off the sticks. Very typical winter hunt for us. They will lie up on the downwind side of the hedge for shelter, in the sun, often on high ground so they can see into the downwind approach. You loop round, break cover and then make yourself as slim as you can to slither along the hedge till oyu cna get a clear shot!

Better than other types? Well I prefer it, but that doesn't make it better. Just different.

[Laturkeyhtr]

Herne, I still remember those low belly crawls through standing water. But it was worth every inch of it. I also remember that one at the farmwhere we used the hedge for visual cover, but then had to crawl through it into that drainage ditch to knock one of them over. It was fun!

I too remember breaking wind only to find you right behind me. :D

[Renegade]

I like Pa.'s new raised antler restriction. It's been in place since 2002 now and has gained wide acceptance. I believe they figure it in the 70% approval range. The old restriction didn't do a whole lot, it was (the old) at least 2 antlers, or one antler at least 3" long; protected very few buck and pretty much had the same effect as high grading by shooting many potential trophy buck as youngsters. When it came to sightings you'd see a ton of does and very few, if any bucks. Spikes were common, as were young deer.
Since the raised AR went into place there's a noticeable change, not only in field sightings but in the harvest and the buck contests. The president of the states taxidermists assoc. even said there's been a noticeable increase in the deer brought in. Now granted the harvest is down due to herd reduction, but even with less deer the harvest of 2.5+ buck has increased compared to yearlings. In fact the data shows we take more 2.5+ buck now than before. Which of course common sense says it should since we're now protecting young bucks and growing more 2.5+ than we used to when pretty much any buck was legal.

[venado]

Renegade, thank you for your post. Your opinion appears to differ with some that post here regarding where PA currently is and has come from over the last few years (that 30% I suppose.:rolleyes:). Just out of my own curiosity what part of the state do you hunt and how long have you hunted in PA?

[Renegade]

I hunt the central part of the state as the norm, in unit 4D. But in my 34 years of hunting PA I've hunted various other parts on occasion in the north central and north eastern area.
When it comes to opinions in Pa., you'll probably get 7 different opinions from 10 different guys when it comes to deer management strategies. But no, I'd say the typical response that I've heard the most would be "I like antler restrictions but I'm not too keen on the herd reductions". But I've also seen several poll's that favor AR's and never much bad mouthing of them, with the exception of some of the PUS people.