How NOT to hold a revolver

[AK-49]

http://dougdavisent.com/safety/revolver.html

[Smokey]

Oh, it hurts to look at that.

[Badger]

AK-49,

I bet he does NOT do that again! Where did that guy learn to use a two-hand hold like that on a powerful revolver? Any revolver? That is another vote for MANDATORY Firearms Training.

Badger

[Bill Gunn]

AK-49,

I bet he does NOT do that again!

Badger

That's what the farmer said when his horse died....

[Badger]

Bill,

At my firearms instruction classes, I take a small cardboard box about a foot square, lay it on its side so it is like a tunnel. I shoot a .357 revolver inside the box as it lays on the bench. The blast usually destroys the box. It is a vivid display of the damage done by the flash gap. I now know it works on thumbs, as well.

Badger

[AK-49]

Badger, when you do that demonstration I assume that you have a double layer of protection for your neck, face and eyes etc...

would you expect similar results had he (the guy who lost his thumb) been shooting a 357 Mag?

Honestly I do hate to admit it but I never considered escaping gases from around the cylinder gap...

[Bill Gunn]

I had a friend of mine do it with my S&W Mod. 27 .357.

It hurt, and burned a lot :eek: but everything was still attached.

[dave-t.]

A guy I hunt with did that with a 357mag, but he had thick leather gloves on, and it just looked like a bad smash that didn't break the skin. It would have been a lot worse without had he not been wearing the gloves.

[Hi Ball]

I hate to see someone have a GUN ACCIDENT EVER!!!

Is there a cure for STUPIDITY??? YES, it is called Gun Education class 101.

This guy should have gotten some kind of instruction prior to even firing that weapon or any weapon. He evidently choose NOT to do this and now will be reminded the rest of his entire life.

If I were going to jump out of an airplane, YOU can bet your life, I am going to got proper instruction from a Professional. Yes, class room education goes a long long way in being able to have good fun and enjoyment without traggedy. GUN SAFETY CLASSES ARE OFTEN "FREE" or of little cost in most area's.

[AK-49]

I have been around guns all my life and have never thought of gas bleeding out from around the cylinder gap on a revolver. Am I the exception?

I know about gas bleeds when there are case failures in bolt action rifles etc. Guess this is a wake up call for a lot of people.

[StringJumper]

I found this out the hard way but it could have been worse. A friend had one of those old Navy blackpowder pistols and asked if I wanted to shoot it. I used a pine tree to steady the pistol and when it fired the gases blew pine bark back into my face and eyes. For a few moments I thought my eye had been put out but it recovered after a few minutes.

And no...we were out hunting and consequently I was not using safety glasses. I do use glasses each time I am at the range.

And it's just my opinion but if the gases from a .460 are powerful enough to sever a finger then I think the pistol should have some sort of shield or shroud on the frame to deflect the gases foward out of harms way.

[Badger]

AK-49,

I sit at the bench with ear and eye protection and shoot through the pasteboard box placed at arms length in front of me. I see no need for "double protection." I also shoot a cake of ivory soap with a .22 at 7 yards to show what the bullet will do and that the .22 is not a toy.

Many folks assume they know all about guns when they do not. I had a class at the agency for a dozen agents who needed to be checked out on the PPK .380 undercover gun. A certain female agent was texting during the classroom instruction with her right thumb and was obviously bored with my classroom instruction. On the 7-yard line she prepared to fire the PPK held in her right hand. She placed her right thumb BEHIND the slide and fired!!! She did not text with that thumb for a while.

Badger

[Badger]

StringJumper,

Revolvers have always sprayed gas on firing from the gap between cylinder and barrel ever since the Patterson Colt. All is fine IF you keep fingers and hands AWAY from the gap like you need to keep away from a running chainsaw. If the shooter keeps both hands, and fingers, on the stocks, all will be well. I will bet the Instruction Book that came with that revolver advises of the gap danger. Presupposing folks read the book, first.

Another safety point: DO NOT fire any revolver with a bystander standing on either side of the gun. Hot powder gasses and bits of lead can fly out and injure a bystander.

Badger

[AK-49]

Here is an article on the situation: http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/236609/

Todd held the pistol grip with his right hand and placed his left hand under the trigger guard of the revolver and also braced the gun against the window of the deer stand,” the complaint states.


http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-arwdce/case_no-1:2008cv01059/case_id-31284/

I wonder if the window has glass in it? So does glass have anything to do with it... Mr Brown is pretty clueless in any case from what I can tell. Being from Arkansas no wonder!

If the gasses from that 460 are that severe then I think the strap would soon be weakened to the point of failure... there is more to this than escaping gases I think (like glass maybe)

S&W Manual....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...l_09-12-07.pdf

The manual on the S&W site states on page 19:

WARNING: ALWAYS KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY
FROM THE AREA BETWEEN THE CYLINDER AND
THE BARREL DURING FIRING. PARTICLES AND HOT
GAS WILL BE FORCED OUT FROM BETWEEN THE BARREL
AND CYLINDER IN ANY REVOLVER DURING NORMAL USE.
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING WILL CAUSE SERIOUS
PERSONAL INJURY.
• Always use the proper grip as shown for a two-hand hold
(Figures 11 & 12). This keeps hands and fingers away from
the barrel/cylinder gap.
• Never allow hands or fingers to extend beyond the front of the
cylinder when firing (Figures 13 & 14). This is an improper
hold for any revolver.

[snake river rufus]

I had a friend of mine do it with my S&W Mod. 27 .357.

It hurt, and burned a lot :eek: but everything was still attached.

Funny, I had a friend do the same thing with the same model. he had wrapped his hand around the cylinder. Thumb and fore finger both gas cut to the bone.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

The first time I was ever allowed to touch a revolver (my father's Ruger Blackhawk flattop) and was being given instruction in the safe handling of same (I had learned to listen very closely because of the repercussions off the back of my head that occurred if my little mind started to wander off) I was told to never hold my hand or anything else that I wanted around the front of the cylinder because hot gas and lead shavings came out of there. I didn't have to be told twice. If you want a good idea of what's happening, shoot a revolver on a pitch black night. You'll get the full effect!

Alan

[Badger]

AK-49,

DID Todd READ the S&W Instructions, specifically page 19, BEFORE he fired that revolver? He only has one good thumb left, so I hope he reads the BOOK! OF COURSE he will sue S&W for his injuries because he cannot read, nor can he comprehend the written word in English. AGAIN, I reluctantly say Todd is a Poster Child for MANDATORY firearms training BEFORE one owns a gun. We cannot CURE stupid so we have to blame the gun manufacturer! Does Todd drive a car/truck or use a chainsaw? Can he walk and chew gum at the same time? Finally, does he currently mate? If so, the gene pool is negatively impacted, in my humble opinion.

Badger

[AK-49]

Badger, I am wondering if glass was involved in the amputation. If that 460 is releasing so much high pressure gas to amputate a thumb then would not the strap soon be weakened to the point of the gun being unsafe to use?

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

The straps on revolvers do show gas cutting wear after prolonged use. I have never heard of one failing. Of course we shall see when these hand cannons they're making these days start getting long in the tooth.

Alan

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I went back and looked at the picture again and my second reaction was the same as my first. It's not appropriate for print.

Alan

[AK-49]

still i wonder if the amputation was assisted by glass... or other external factors ,, more than what meets the eye here i think

[Hi Ball]

AK-49......There YOU GO AGAIN!!! Sticking your foot in your Big ALASKAN MOUTH sounding like some sort of JERK Bud. Now how many people have you ever met from the state of Arkansas?

Now what in your marble like brain, makes you think that because someone is from Arkansas, they are somewhat lacking in their ability to accomplish a said task or have a lack of mental capacity or education for crying out loud. Please do answer by all means!!!

I know a hell of a lot of distinguished people from ARKANSAS and most are just like people from other states, except for their Southern Draw in speech and friendly ways with others and you will always have that down in the South.

We have several people in our family or clan, that do have more educational degrees from various Universities across this USA, than you could hang on walls in an hours time. So get the hell off the "Slanderous" & "Degarding" tidbits and think before you poke jabs, at a great state of people in the U.S.A. Oh yeah, YOU can stand up and salute all those boys from the state of ARKANSAS, who are now laid to rest at National Cemetary's.

[AK-49]

LMAO, one of my best friends is from AR

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Hi Ball seems to be feeling better.

Alan

[Badger]

AK-49,

I cannot see how glass beyond the gun could cut off a thumb. At best the gas pressure from that handcannon would push a glass pane AWAY from the gun. The big pressure gasses originate at the cylinder gap and go OUT. The SEAT of the high pressure gasses was the cylinder.

A redo of shooting out of a window with the shooter's hands on the stocks-AWAY from the cylinder gap- would prove my point.

Badger

[Dennis Keith]

If the off side of the cylinder gap were against the frame of the "Window" then all of the escaping gass would have been focoused on the Thumb. Either way that pistol is way too strong to show any disrespect to.

[AK-49]

with such severe gas bleed would the strap soon we weakened to the point of failure

[Badger]

AK-49,

Most high intensity cartridges do cut away the top strap at the top rear of the barrel. Look at a .357 or .44 magnum and see the indented line just under the top strap. It will take many, many rounds to cut through that steel. In the past several alloy framed revolvers were discontinued because of the gas cutting.

Badger

[ncboman]

Learn somethin every day.

I was unaware of the danger and while my experience with big pistolas is limited, I have shot a few of em.

I gotta show my boys this.

ncboman

[AK-49]

i was unaware of the danger too... never thought about it really... scary.

[Badger]

It is scary alright. That is why it pays to read the book FIRST with guns, chainsaws, tractors, etc.

Badger

[Twanger]

I had no idea this would happen either. Thanks for the link.

On a related topic, you should NEVER wrap your thumb around the top of a crossbow stock right before shooting. It's easier to do than you might think. The bow string did not cut my thumb off, but I have never done it again! :eek: It's a similar feeling to smashing your thumb with a 20-oz hammer.

[Hi Ball]

OK GENTS, YOU Too AK-49!!! Now just look at this from another perspective shall we. To cut a 2 inch thick piece of steel, the cutting torch must have two things in tune with one another. GAS for the heating process and AIR for the cutting of the material.

Glass from a window payne did NOT cut that young man's thumb off! It was a combination of the Heat in milliseconds & Air that did the job on his thumb.

He is lucky to have lost on the first joint!!! If he would have laid that pistols up next to his leg, it would have more than likely cut it away also.

ALAN.....I am in great Spirits Today!!! I get to eat birthday cake after supper tonight. Yeah and before anyone asks, I am 39 boing on 40.;):):)

[LE]

I see this as a learning lesson or a reminder that a moment of inattention can last a lifetime.

[Badger]

LE,

The Moral to this story is run, do not walk, to a lawyer's office and SUE. We cannot fix stupid, but a lawyer will "FIX" the blame and seek remuneration. I would prefer to fix individual responsibility. When this guy's case goes to court against S&W, I want to be on the jury.

Badger

[AK-49]

Badger, what is the b/c gap supposed to be on that S&W X-frame chambered in 460

[Badger]

AK-49,
Even though I have been to the S&W Armorer's School twice, I do not know what the gap should be. Perhaps S&W could advise you. I worked on M65s and carried one of the five I built and as a Personally Owned Weapon (POW) it came home with me to the farm when I retired.

My .357 Magnum NEVER burned/severed any of my finger/digits BECAUSE I used my two handed grip on the STOCKS. READ THE BOOK!

Badger

[AK-49]

Badger, I have no burning desire to put any body parts in harms way of the b/c gap.

Does .006 inch sound about right

[GF.]

Even though I have been to the S&W Armorer's School twice, I do not know what the gap should be. Perhaps S&W could advise you. I worked on M65s....


Now, this is pretty interesting... As a handgun/wheelgun Newbie, it didn't occur to me that there would be model-specific and cartridge-specific B/C gap specs until Badger made that point there....

And gee, whizzers, batman! -- maybe these things aren't as simple as you might think!

On the one hand, it was kind of nice, living in Wyoming, to think that all you needed to buy a handgun was a current WY driver's license and a way to pay for the pistol. It was kind of a nuisance, living in MN, to need to go through the 3-week background check and get a permit to purchase. And it's a royal PITA that up here in CT, you need to take a handgun training class and put in for a permit that brings CCW privileges with it if you want to purchase a handgun and be allowed to possess it outside of your own, private home.

But it probably would've saved that guy a big hunk of thumb....

Ironically, I think Smith stands a better chance without any shooters on the jury. If I were Smith's attorney, I'd tell these non-shooting jurors that they're all smart enough to know that a gun is an inherently dangerous item when handled in a careless manner. Surely they, as 'reasonable persons' would have had the sense to read the manual carefully (and hopefully even go out and get some hands-on training), especially given that this particular gun was known by the purchaser to be an especially powerful weapon, and surely they would realize that the reason that so much of the manual is printed in BIG, BOLD TYPE is that the information is so important to the safety of the gun owner/user.

Somebody like AK or Twang or me - all three of us having fessed up to not knowing that this could happen - would be S&W's worst nightmare, because we can probably see ourselves deciding that we didn't really need to read the manual, in which case any other 'reasonable person' would make the same (bad) choice.

We all think of ourselves as knowledgeable shooters and thoughtful, careful, & safe gun handlers... But we can also see ourselves making the same mistake our friend 'Lefty' here did - so it can't be a reckless or irresponsible act on his part if it could've happened to us, could it??? (I think this is the argument against an 'empathetic' judge vs. a hard-nosed adherent to the letter of the law....).

I don't want to see mandatory handgun safety courses in all 50 states, because I think it's bad policy, a bad precedent, needles regulation, etc., etc..

But you can't argue that Hunter Safety courses haven't made hunting safer. You can't argue that Defensive Driving/Driver Ed courses don't make for safer drivers than just having Old Uncle Steve teach ya how. In short, you can't argue that handgun safety training isn't a good idea for anybody on any subject, activity or thing.

So the trick is to make sure that we apply enough peer pressure on each other that we all know that if you want to take up handgunning, the first thing you do is VOLUNTARILY get the training that you need....

[Badger]

GF,

The biggest problem with mandatory training is that the police usually do it and IF they do not schedule a class, no one gets a permit to buy a gun.

I agree with voluntary training and my classes are full every month. Many of my students join the gun club and are safe shooters.

Badger

[GF.]

Yeah, locally the hardest thing isn't finding someone to give the class, it's finding someone with an open seat to sell you...

Luckily, we have a former officer at church who is going to do one, so at least I can get in... I'm thinking this will be good for his cash flow because there is just so much demand...

Hadn't thought about mandatory training and requiring that only the police can provide it. One more point at which to control access....

[AK-49]

i think this thread has been a pretty good class in how to not hold a revolver.

[ColoYooper]

First, let me concede that is not a safe (2) hand grip on a revolver.
I'll even repeat it "THAT IS NOT A SAFE (2) HAND GRIP ON A REVOLVER"

However...Something doesn't add up. I've shot hot 44 magnum reloads for 20 years and have experienced "spitting" with some powders. I've never placed my thumb so close to the gap as to injure myself...but I've been stung when practicing a crossed flashlite hold with my 44 magnum. And yes the cutting force of the plasma is reduced by the square of the distance. But I was only stung from a distance of a couple of inches.

I suspect the problem is:
a) He has a significant alignment problem with the cylinder or
b) (MOST LIKELY) The 45 long colt rounds he admitted to firing before the incident were more than likely lead. I'd bet he did not clean the lead out before he fired the higher pressure plated bullets.

[Bill Gunn]

Mythbusters just recently tried to prove this couldn't happen. Neither Jamie or Adam thought it was possible.
Here's the results when the experiment was tried...

Holding a hunting revolver improperly can cause your fingers to be blown off by the escaping gasses emitted when the bullets are fired.

confirmed

This myth came to the MythBusters in the form of a picture that was too graphic to show on air. After testing the handgun and noting the power of the gun’s recoil and the gasses that emitted from between the barrel and the chamber, Adam and Jamie built a pair of chicken hands to test the damage these gasses can cause to an unprotected hand. While Jamie’s less anatomically-correct hand only suffered some minor flesh damage from the gasses, Adam’s hand – specifically created to mimic the bone and joint structure of a human hand – had one finger blown almost completely off, confirming the myth.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode-122-thermite-vs-ice


I happened to catch that show, it was an eye-opener !!

[GF.]

Yup, that was the episode that got me to post this topic in the first place... It was pretty impressive, though, frankly, I'm not sure how 'anatomically representative' Adam's 'hand' really was, owing to the difference in bone density between a human thumb and a chicken wing (or any other bone, for that matter, bird bones being hollow in almost every species)....

On the other hand...... :rolleyes:... his chicken-wing creation had some muscle tissue in the way of the gases, whereas an actual thumb has none. Just a little fat pad that doesn't wrap very far up onto the side there, so less cushion and less distance = vastly greater force striking bone. Either way, if anybody still wants/needs to see those pics that never made it to air, just go to an image search engine and punch in the title of this thread.

I suppose it's possible that somebody got 'stung' pretty bad and found a pic of a trashed thumb to post as a bit of a good, old-fashioned stretcher, but when I mentioned this to the guy who I'm hoping will be doing my pistol class soon (and who happens to own a .500), his eyes about bugged out of his head... Just like this: :eek:

He clearly wouldn't consider holding a .22LR that way, so I don't imagine I'll be forgetting about any of this any time soon....

Someone here (who had left his brain running a bit longer than I had :embarassed: ) pointed out to me that in order to get anything as heavy as a bullet up to 2300 fps, you've got to have gases under pressures that will drive things as light as gases and burnt/unburnt powder particles one helluvalot fatser - or maybe 2 or even 3 helluvalots faster - than 2300 fps, so I guess this is one time where I'll concede that light & fast is pretty deadly after all :D

One thing for damn sure..... Only a Royal Chucklehead would let any portion of his/her anatomy get anywhere close to that gap.

:eek: and double :eek: