What is Poaching?

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I started to do a Ford vs. Chevy or even a "What's better a 270 or 30-06" thread but nobody really cares about that stuff any more so I decided to ask,

"What is Poaching?"

Is poaching the worst case scenario of taking a game animal out of season, without a license, or is it any violation of any game law no matter how small, trivial, insignificant, or inadvertent the transgression might be?
.
For instance: I have heard (although I can't recall where) that when fishing if you have a limit of fish on board, and you boat another fish, even if your intent is to toss him back in the water, that at the moment the fish is in the boat it is in your possession and you are at that moment in violation of the daily bag and possession limit.

As for myself, I know that at the end of duck season, I am in possession of more than the possession limit of more than one kind of duck. Does that make me a poacher. Technically it does.

Many properties are transected by county or even state lines. What is legal on one side of the line is illegal on the other side of the line.

What makes a Poacher, What are your thoughts?

Alan


What are your thoughts.

[Bill Gunn]

I would have to say that if you break the written law where your at, in any way to harvest a fish or animal, you are a poacher.
If left up to the individual, how to interpret the game laws, you may as well do away with them.
I've met people that actually went out at night and hit deer with junker cars just for the hell of it. What do you think their interpretation of the laws would be? :rolleyes:

[Altjaeger]

I guess there are degrees of poaching kinda like sin.:)

Legally I was a poacher a few years ago when I placed the wrong deer tag on a buck due to inattention. It cost me about $350 to learn. Do I see myself as a poacher? Not really. I see it as a mistake by an inattentive hunter.

I think Bill is right in terms of a legalistic definition. For me to label an individual a poacher barring him from my camp that it would take a case of deliberate action willfully in violation of the law or repeatedly showing a lackadasical attitude in being knowledgable of the law.

[pepaw]

A poacher in my mind is someone who intentionally hunts/fishes outside the seasons, bags more than his legal limit and/or hunts/fishes where he has no legal right.
A thief of the public's resources.

I have no patience for thieves. Especially armed ones.

pepaw

[Bill Gunn]

A poacher in my mind is someone who intentionally hunts/fishes outside the seasons, bags more than his legal limit and/or hunts/fishes where he has no legal right.

pepaw

I agree with the intentional part as far as being a "Poacher", but you still have to punish the mistakes to keep the intentional ones at bay.

[dave-t.]

I shot an out of season rabbit that was in the garden this week, so I may not be the best one to ask. :eek:

I can see making an unkown accident, like placing a wrong tag on an animal when you have the right one withh you, or canoeing down the river under a bridge that (poorly) marks a trophy fish area, or forgetting there is a lead shotshell in the waterfowl gear etc. But, I have seen real poaching, and there is no comparison. There is obvious intent to disregard and break the law with a real poacher.

I think the Conservation agents should bust rule breakers, intentional or not, but in my mind there is a pretty big difference difference between someone with one fish 1/4" short on the stringer, and someone with a spotlighted deer in the truck, or the guy who saws off horns and gets out of dodge.

I have also been over the possession limit of fish in the freezer, even though I never went over the daily limit. Thinking of that makes me wonder, if the possession limit is 60 crappie, and you have 60 in the freezer, are you a poacher if you go fishing? Are you more of a poacher if there is 100 in the freezer, or are you just a guy with some free time and a good spot? :confused:

[Twanger]

To the letter of the law, if you take game in a manner that is not in accordance with the law, then you are a poacher. Intent has nothing to do with it.

In my heart, I believe that intent has everything to do with it. If we were perfect beings then we'd all have angel wings. Its very easy to break a law by mistake because there are so many of them. I'd hazard a guess that most of us break laws every day. Did you buckle that seatbelt before or after you put the car in drive? Did you drive 31 in a 30 zone? How many of us REALLY come to a complete stop every time at a 4-way stop intersection.

As legal ethical hunters we are expected to know the law, however, new laws are added every day and not all of them are published in the Hunting Guide. Even if you know the law, some are not enforced nor does DNR wish to enforce them. For example, in Maryland by the letter of the law a rifled barreled shotgun is a rifle, and therefore not legal to deer hunt with in many areas. By the letter of the law, only shotguns are allowed, and by definition, shotguns are smooth-bore only. However, thousands and thousands of hunters take to the woods every season with rifled barreled shotguns and kill many thousands of deer. Are they all poachers? Well? A buddy of mine pointed this out to a DNR officer, and they had no answer except that it's not enforced.

So what's the difference between a guy who purposefully does not buy a license or buck tag and kills a buck with a spotlight at night with a .22, and a guy who does buy a license and tag and uses an 'illegal' rifled barreled shotgun? I think there's a huge difference, but according to the law they are both poachers. :confused:

[Altjaeger]

Dave-T on the possession limit thing I would say it depends on your state laws. Texas says, "Fish stored by a person in their permanent residence do not apply to their possession limit".

[dave-t.]

Alt, it does count in MO, but the only people I've heard being busted for it were big time poachers who killed everything they could year round. It was more of a tack on charge than the main event.

At the MO state run trout parks the daily limit is 4 per person, possession limit of 8 per person. If you fish and camp for 4 days and know how to catch trout, you'll be in violation by the end of the trip. This one is the only game law that I've ever seen my dad encroach on. He has never been one to side step any game laws or limits at all, but he would always keep his daily limit until the camping trip was over, regardless of how many fish were in the cooler from previous days.

[GF.]

And hopefully not in the literal sense!

The kicker is that while most of us would like to think that Intent is the critical factor, you can't regulate it, so there has to be some objective standard in order for the laws to be enforceable.

'Legal shooting hours' in most states allow a fair amount of time every day during which there might or might not actually be enough light to shoot - kinda depends on the weather - but on the averages, the 1/2 hour before and after sundown is a pretty reasonable standard. You can argue all day long whether it's 'light enough' to shoot or not, but you can't dispute what time it is, and if you don't bother to wear a watch, that's not the CO's problem...

Likewise with possession limits. If you've got 3 limits' worth of fish in your possession, well, have you been poaching or have you been camping for three days? Pretty hard to tell, so it's pretty hard to enforce the daily limit. At least if they're home in the freezer, it's a pretty good bet that you had to make a run back to the house somewhere in the process.

The trouble is, the objective standards have to be on the conservative side so that the COs have a decent chance at catching the bad actors and making the charges stick. So that 'inconveniences' all the honest folks in order to be effective against the Bad Guys. Sometimes I feel like that's a ridiculous burden for the Good Guys to bear, and other times I figure that's why we need to be able to trust the enforcement folks to cut an honest person an honest break on an honest mistake. The kicker, of course, is when you get some knothead who takes an unnatural pleasure in using the regs to bust honest people's cojones just because they can...

:mad:

All that said, there are some things on which I think the COs should be more willing to bend than others. I'm prepared for them to be extremely strict on season dates, having the proper licenses, stamps & tags, bag/possession limits and property lines, for example. In other cases, it seems to me that the system would benefit from having a few more options in terms of what kind of charges might be brought. Maybe a reduced fine for an 'improperly tagged' deer, rather than the full-on, 'we know you did this maliciously' Poacher's penalty... but then of course, you're writing additional regs, which is never going to be pain-free....

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

How many of you can tell a Ringneck from a Bluebill at shooting light in the rain? How many of you can tell a 12" spread from a 13 1/4" spread at 150 yrds in the time it takes him to cross the sendero? How many of you know a whitefronted dove from a whitewing dove?

Alan

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

This is all going somewhere, you know. It has to do with a trend that I am seeing both in the hunting and fishing world and the shooting world. There are some things that just cannot be determined by the average hunter in the time constraints of the hunt. There is a flash of white on the Bluebill but you don't usually see it until the bird is broadside or going away, neither of which is a good time to shoot. Most hunters can't guess within +-3 inches a bucks spread at 150 yards much less 1 inch. White fronted doves usually fly low through the fields and the whitewings are a little higher.

Gun owners, hunters and fishermen are clamoring for existing gun and game laws to be enforced with vehemence. So, there being more than one way to skin cats, all that needs be done to dampen the spirits of hunters, fishermen and shooters is to start enforcing every little law and regulation on the books. Soon those of us who actually follow the letter of the law will be quite few in number. License $$$ go up, and the number of violators on the books goes up and general interest in a sport/hobby that puts the participant under intense scrutiny becomes more trouble than it's worth.

I hunt ducks on Choke Canyon Res. about once a year. The last time I was there the atmosphere in the office when they found out that I had been duck hunting was nothing short of cold. #1 son went out to the lake with one of his buddies on Memorial Weekend (that's crazy enough in itself), and the Game Wardens stopped them and checked everything. He said jet skis and ski boats were literally causing their wakes to splash over the side of their bass boat and the Warden's boat and yet they didn't bother with the obvious recklessness and quite possible intoxication going on around them and concentrate on checking the fishermen. I guess I could go on give more examples which would prove, what?

I believe that the Parks and Wildlife Services are being manned by a new breed of Warden well versed in the the rules and regulations with the purpose in mind of writing citations.

I don't have a concealed carry permit, I don't really want one. I feel that it is backdoor gun registration. I have been encouraged by DPS Troopers to get the CCP as opposed to answering my questions about how I should transport a handgun in my vehicle. They tell me that much is left to the discretion of the arresting officer. I say, "Whoa, whada ya mean ARRESTING Officer?" Well, all we need is for our crooked politicians to start doing what we're asking them to do, except they'll start doing it to us. The easiest way to take out a gun owner is to make breaking a rule a felony and then wait for us to not be able to live up to unreasonable expectations.

I guess I'm just getting more and more paranoid these days.


Oh, A Poacher is someone who takes or attempts to take a game animal or fish or fowl illegally.

Alan


I've got a few stories but I'll tell them later.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

One time I was hunting doves with three friends in Duval Co. #1 son was about 5 - 6 years old. The limit was 12 birds. We were spread out around the water hole and I was close by the truck with #1 son sitting in the back. He had wanted to go running around picking up birds but I wouldn't let him and stayed there at the truck taking what shots I could get. I had one dog and he was working hard because the doves were flying fast and furious like they do in South Texas at water at dusk. I told #1 son to make a line of birds for each of us and let me know when there were 12 birds in each line. The dog would only retrieve to me so he was bringing all the birds to the truck. I kept peeking over the side of the bed to count for myself to. Finally he piped up and said there were 12 in each line and I called to everyone to stop shooting. The other guys came over and collected their birds and I put mine in my bag. We were laughing and talking about the hunt when #1 says, "Daddy, what about these others?" I looked and there was another line of 12 birds behind the tool box. My jaw hit the ground and I asked where they had come from. He said, "Those are mine, you told me to make a line for each of us." By golly I sure had told him that. I was one fast dove picker that night. All the guys got a good laugh about it at my expense because I kinda obsessed about those things, you know silly limits and all! I asked a Warden friend of mine about it after I was sure the statute of limitations had run out and asked him what he would have done if he had gotten that story from someone with an extra limit of doves. He kinda gave me the lazy eye and told me, "It would have depended on how scared you were". I told him I would've won an Oscar on that count. One of the guys with me that day was a DPS Trooper so I guess I had a credible witness. That was in 1985 and things were bit different then.

Was that Poaching? Yep, Fraid so! For all of us actually because we should have been keeping up with our own birds and you really can't shoot on a collective limit, or fish that way either. I kinda think it would be tough for a warden to walk away from that one, but I suppose it could happen.


Alan

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

My grandfather would never have dreamed of killing more than his two bucks and a doe was out of the question, just an old timer mindset, but he kinda bent some of the other rules a little. During quail season which is from November to the end of February, he would bring home 4 quail about once a week for he and my grandmother. On his way in he would stop when he saw a covey of quail and shoot one of them in the head with his 22. He had a little Browning Auto "Short" (I still have it) and the quail would come up to see what the one was doing flopping around on the ground. He would take four and nor more and he tried to not shoot up the same covey twice through the season.

Was that Poaching? At the time they couldn't be shot with a rifle, and that still may be the case. I haven't checked.

Alan

[Sabre]

[QUOTE


I believe that the Parks and Wildlife Services are being manned by a new breed of Warden well versed in the the rules and regulations with the purpose in mind of writing citations. .[/QUOTE]

Tax collectors is all they are. The sherrif of Nottingham. Cops are pretty much the same. Freedom ? When some dumb shit somewhere wants to make every little thing you do illegal ?

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Well, Sabre that's just what I'm saying, and the real danger in this is not the fact that law enforcement agencies of all sorts are encouraging increased citations (revenue), Hell, they'll take a picture of your car and send you a ticket in the mail in some places! The real danger is in the psychological effect it has on the citizenry. I know people who have gone their whole lives without so much as a traffic ticket. They are devastated when they get a ticket in a speed trap (and they do exist) because, "Now they have a record". As more and more people "get records" the stigma attached to being on the wrong side of the law is both outwardly and intrinsically is diminished. A larger and larger segment of the citizenry becomes more and more used to dealing with (and trying to evade) being caught breaking any of the multitudes of laws available to break. Law enforcement budgets go up and agencies grow in size and scope and a "Marshall Law" system develops. Us against them. Look around and say it ain't happening! Our whole culture is in a mindset of lamenting the things that are wrong, making new laws to counter what's wrong, and enlarging those agencies designed to enforce those new laws.

Oh well,

Alan

[Wismon]

Sabre and Alan,

I completely agree. Around here both the game laws and the traffic laws have become mainly a vehicle for revenue collection through predatorially targeting honest citizens.

In this state the game laws are so convoluted that not even the game wardens can keep up with them. I'm not too far from throwing in the towel on hunting and just concentrating on the target shooting, reloading, and plinking aspects of this hobby. Who needs all the aggravation? Let's see, is it legal to shoot a non-whiskered buck on the third tuesday of the month during a full moon but not during a rain storm, or is it the other way around?

And there isn't enough server space for me to get wound up about the traffic laws around here. Supposedly we have the second worst traffic in the nation - second to Los Angeles. Well, I've been in LA during rush hour - for my money it's nothing compared to this dysfunctional place. And instead of trying to be part of the solution the police make the situation worse - all the while sneering enroute to the municipal treasurers' offices.

"To protect and serve" has become "to fleece and harass."

[Chuck S]

Another line that is being crossed with more and more regularity is the one concerning available income for things such as fishing/hunting licenses. Here in Wyoming the Fish and Game folks have priced the averaged waged folks out of the hunting business in many cases. Hunting and fishing isn't supposed to be just a sport for the well off but here, more and more it's sure becoming just that. In far too many cases, these days hunting and fishing licenses are exactly like entry fees and camping fees on public land such as forests and parks, it's just one more way to tax an overtaxed population. Given this level of government corruption, it's no wonder that poaching is on the rise.

Another big area throughout the west is the BLM/USFS inclination to close roads. With an aging population this is the height of folly as most folks gain some infirmities with age. Drive around the barrier though and it's breaking the law. Same goes for closing roads to large tracs of USFS land that abuts a ranchers outfitting business. Sure seems like their catering to a wealthy crowd who can afford payment or services under the table.

Couple all of this and I'm seeing more and more otherwise very honest folks who are breaking so-called laws concerning hunting, and fishing.

Wish there was an organization that worked toward protecting hunters adn anglers rights. I'd be the first to join.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

When I was an Asst. Principal, I got up at the first day assembly and asked the student's if the wanted to get rid of me. They all cheered and hooted that they did. I told them I would tell them how to do it. They got quiet cause they wanted to hear this. I said, "Get to school and class on time. Do all of your classwork and homework, and don't misbehave or do anything they weren't supposed to do." I don't think they were expecting to hear that. By the end of the day I had 5 kids in my office. I could only figure they didn't really want to get rid of me.

I often ask people the same question of sorts. What is the worst thing that could happen for any police department? They go through all kinds of scenarios from shootouts to bombs to chemical spills, wrecks, etc. I let it go for a little and then explain that the worst thing that could happen for any Police Department is for everyone to start obeying the laws. If there were no lawbreakers then law enforcement would be a financial liability for any government entity. A bunch of cops would be out of work because there would be no need for their services. Could that happen, sure it could. It happens all the time. We've got our state legislatures working full time making new laws for us to break and the enforcement agencies are getting bigger and bigger.

Alan

[dave-t.]

Sounds like you guys have beeen reading Ayn Rand. Let the over bearing gov't run wild making enough laws, until eventually everyone is a law breaker and has a record or citation that can be held over their head, to keep the population in check (ie. under the gov'ts thumb).



With the wardens.... Here in MO the focus seems to be getting more women and minorities instead of getting the best person for the job. Some of the wardens have a strong distaste for hunting in general, and may not support the activity or the participants at all.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

Actually, no I haven't been reading Ayn Rand, but she was a pretty smart gal (cept for the atheist part). She probably would have looked around at the current goings on and said, "Da, told you so!"

I believe we will see more and more governmental agencies infiltrated by left wing liberal types who have an axe to grind with sportsmen. WE, as Americans used to pave the way, strike out in the wilderness of the unknown, blaze the trails for others to follow and now it seems, more and more we are looking to others (countries) to model our institutions after. Are the law abiding citizens the only ones who fear the consequences of illegal acts? I mean, Millions of people can enter this country illegally, remain here illegally and soon will be allowed to live here legally illegally. They do not fear capture, detention and deportation much less jail time. Plot to kill Americans, get caught and all of a sudden you've got rights! You'll get a laptop and an E-Harmony account and pretty soon you'll be a playah! What do they fear? There is a revolving door in most big city police stations. Arrested for "whatever" by night, get a good hot breakfast and a shower and you're back on the streets by noon the next day. What do they fear.

The only ones who fear the consequences are those who care about following the laws. We make sure we have the right tags and licenses, have all the paperwork filled out, have all our current papers with us, titles, registrations, current inspections, numbers positioned properly on the boat, certificate of number on board, blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum. And after all the life jackets, and throw cushions, and sound making devices are checked all there is to bust my chops about is that my fire extinguisher is out of date. It's still charged but out of date. Write me a WARNING? FU I want the GD ticket if you are going to use up 15 min of my fishing time that I have waited a month to have, leave a bad taste in my mouth and get a chance to show me how well my license tax money is being used. it's uncalled for and nothing short of bullying and intimidation.

On the other hand. #1 son and a friend of his were tied off and fishing in his boat. I was in my boat. We were catching White Bass fast a furious. I got my 25 and settled back and let some calf liver soak for maybe a few cats. #1 son and his friend were still catching WB when the fish cop showed up. He checked me first and counted every fish. Then he goes to #1 son's boat and starts counting fish. When he's through there's less than 50 but he holds up one of them. Prettiest little legal WB you ever saw except it wasn't a WB. It was a crappie, and it wasn't long enough. #1 son and his bud just look at the fish cause neither one of them knew it was in there. We guess it hit the rattle trap and just got tossed in without either of them looking at it very good. It was cold as the ice it was sitting in too, so there was no putting it back. I guess the Warden used his administrative discretion because he tossed it back in the ice chest and told them to be more careful.

There's good guys and there's bad guys but these days it seems like the bad guys are winning.

Alan

[GF.]

To Dave's point... It's gonna get rough once there's a good chance that any given CO/Warden/FishCop/what-have-you is not him/herself an avid sportsman.

Scary thought - let's see what happens once the ARAs decide to defeat the system from within by becoming Enforcement....

[Twanger]

Scary thought - let's see what happens once the ARAs decide to defeat the system from within by becoming Enforcement....

Yes... I had that thought also, and decided to not even articulate it. That scenario would be awful.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

This is all going somewhere, you know. It has to do with a trend that I am seeing both in the hunting and fishing world and the shooting world.

I hunt ducks on Choke Canyon Res. about once a year. The last time I was there the atmosphere in the office when they found out that I had been duck hunting was nothing short of cold.

I believe that the Parks and Wildlife Services are being manned by a new breed of Warden well versed in the the rules and regulations with the purpose in mind of writing citations.


Alan




What makes you think they haven't already don't that?

Alan

[DaveHawk]

Here in Md the Potomac River is Federal property and hunting on the river can either be enforced by the Fed's or the Park police or the County police. Use to be if the Fed's showed up you were good hunting down to one point on the river but the county made the line about 2 miles north of the Fed's line. A friend was Duck hunting on the river this past season and when he came off the river all 3 agency's were there to greet him. They asked if he was at ......... which is the Fed line and he said yes it's where he has hunted for 40 years. Now the Fed gave him a ticket for not hunting back up where the county line is. I told him "You Dummy" LOL