Time to throw away your lever gun...

[GF.]

Yep, they're all obsolete again :rolleyes:

Have you seen this one? Marlin's got a follow-up to their 'almost a .308' round, this one being 200 grains of the 'leverevolution' load in .338 at about 2500 fps, which they say compares to a 180-grain load from an '06.... :confused:

Wouldn't it be a lot more interesting to do a run in .32 WinSpcl and see what Cor-Bon, BuffaloBore and Garret can do with it? :D

[dave-t.]

I saw it, and although it sounds interesting, it seems to be a 'tweener big game round. overly big for a common deer round, and not up to snuff with the true big bore lever guns in 45-70. And if you were wanting some more reach than the 45-70, you're not looking for a tube fed lever gun, you're up to bolt guns and big power scopes.

[Badger]

GF,

I prefer my old Marlin .444 Sporter stoked with 265 grain slugs. Second choice is my old M1894 Winchester rifle with 24-inch octogon barrel stoked with 150 grain handloads. The PA deer have yet to complain.

Badger

[howdydoit]

I always enjoyed my 35 rem 336 Marlin. It was a deer stopper. I dont see the leverguns going away anytime soon. And with Mossberg taking over the 94 win line it should make for some interesting rifles on the market.

howdy,.:eek:

[Smokey]

It's hard to imagine not having M99's and M94's around. I've carried both for a lot of miles and enjoyed every bit of it. I still use both a little each year. Glad Mossberg is coming out with a copy of the M94 as we do not know what Winchester is going to do.

[Sabre]

Yep, they're all obsolete again :rolleyes:

Have you seen this one? Marlin's got a follow-up to their 'almost a .308' round, this one being 200 grains of the 'leverevolution' load in .338 at about 2500 fps, which they say compares to a 180-grain load from an '06.... :confused:

Wouldn't it be a lot more interesting to do a run in .32 WinSpcl and see what Cor-Bon, BuffaloBore and Garret can do with it? :D

No way the 32 spcl. could come anywhere near the ballistics of the new 338 Marlin. The muzzle numbers for Marlin's new 338 are actually almost identical to the old 358 and 348 Winchester's but this new one retains it's velocity much better over distance thank's to Hornady's new bullet's. The 348 and 358 were considered good moose, elk and bear thumping medicine in their day. I see no reason the new 338 shouldn't do just as well on heavy game provided Hornady's bullet construction is up to snuff.

[Hi Ball]

Well Boys, I don't suspect I will be pawning off my 444 Marlin anytime in the near future or the 45/70 1895 model. Ifin I need a .338 caliber rifle, I'll just pick one out of my vault. Only it is a real .338 mag or better!:)

[TinStar]

If I were interested in a long range lever action it would be a BLR and not one of the newer ones that are restricted to one brand of ammo and one bullet. If I was really interested in a long range thumper it would be a bolt anyway. I look at it as more commercial hype to sell more guns. Not a bad thing; just not for me.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

[jbmi]

I love my lever actions, being left handed they work great for me. I have 5 but only hunt with 3, my Win. 94 and 64 are safe queens.
These are the three that see the woods each fall.
Marlin 336 35rem.
Win.88 in 338-08 (338Federal)
Savage 99 in 358.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/jbmich/IMG_1468.jpg

[Bushman]

jbmi, I've been wondering where you have been and glad to see you posting over here again. I have admired those 88's of yours since you showed us them back on the old forum. Has the fact that Federal commercialized the .338 Federal since you built up that rifle made it any dearer to you? Since a scope sighted .35 Remington, a .338 Federal and a .358 Winchester would all do pretty much the same kind of job in a deer woods around here, how do you decide which one to use on any given day?

[jbmi]

Bushman, My 88 will shoot the new Federal 338's but I have not found one that it will shoot well. Right now that ammo is just to darn expensive to keep trying every round Federal makes.
It shoots my reloads very well, I can keep 5 shot groups in 1.5" all day. It really likes the 200gr. Combined Tech. ballistic tips, and the 200 gr. Noslers Accubonds.
I'll use each rifle a few days during deer season, the 35rem is really my sons so he gets first choice to use it, I have a custom MRC in 358 also that needs to see the woods too.
If you read your post on the "history of the rifle" you'll see why I enjoy the Model 88.

[Bill Gunn]

Marlin 336 35rem.
Win.88 in 338-08 (338Federal)
Savage 99 in 358.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/jbmich/IMG_1468.jpg

Really Nice Guns :)

[GF.]

No way the 32 spcl. could come anywhere near the ballistics of the new 338 Marlin. The muzzle numbers for Marlin's new 338 are actually almost identical to the old 358 and 348 Winchester's but this new one retains it's velocity much better over distance thank's to Hornady's new bullet's. The 348 and 358 were considered good moose, elk and bear thumping medicine in their day. I see no reason the new 338 shouldn't do just as well on heavy game provided Hornady's bullet construction is up to snuff.

Sabre - you missed my point entirely.....

My question is one of why bother to 'invent' a 'new' round just to sell more rifles when there are so many Great Old Cartridges out there already? I guess some folks think 'new & different' will sell better than 'nostalgia'... Either way, you're selling the tried & true, just with different labeling and a whole new crop of advertising hype....

A .32 spcl would be a great small game/plinker rifle which - with a modernized load behind it - would easily serve in the deer woods come fall (Not that a lot of deer haven't probably fallen very neatly to that round, but modern shooters do seem to have a need for biger numbers) . Sort of like the thread on the .357 Mag in a rifle, but in something that could pass for a period piece, rather than a bastardized 'old timey'-lookin' rifle shooting a round that was intended (at its release) as the latest, greatest, be-all, end-all scientific advance in handgunning.....:confused:


It's just the way I see things, I guess. I shoot roundballs out of an iron-sighted caplock for a reason that makes sense to me, just like I shoot 405 grainers out of my 1895, just like I shoot pointy, 140 grainers out of a 7-08 case in my 2-7X scoped bolt rifle. In each case, the load makes sense in that rifle. A 200-plus-yard lever action makes as much sense to me as a .22Hornet revolver or a 500-yard 'dangerous game' rig or a 200-yard, double-barreled 'stopping rifle'. :confused::confused::confused:

[Altjaeger]

I love my lever actions, being left handed they work great for me. I have 5 but only hunt with 3, my Win. 94 and 64 are safe queens.
These are the three that see the woods each fall.
Marlin 336 35rem.
Win.88 in 338-08 (338Federal)
Savage 99 in 358.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/jbmich/IMG_1468.jpg

I like your tastes.:)

My cartridge selection is not quiet so exotic. My 336 is in .30-30, the pre-64 M88 is .308 and the Savage 99 was built about 1920 with the rapier like schnabel foreend when the barrels were still stamped .250-3000 instead of .250 Savage. They have all killed deer for us and the Winchester has killed two feral hogs in my left handed wife's capable hands.

Nice selection you have!:D

[Sabre]

Sabre -

A .32 spcl would be a great small game/plinker rifle which - with a modernized load behind it - would easily serve in the deer woods come fall (Not that a lot of deer haven't probably fallen very neatly to that round, but modern shooters do seem to have a need for biger numbers)

I think you must have the 32 Winchester special confused with some other cartridge. Standard factory ballistics for the 32 are a 170 grain bullet at 2250 fps. That's 50 fps FASTER than a .30-30 launches a 170 grainer. At nearly 2000 foot pounds of muzzle energy that's a bit much for small game {to say the least} and PLENTY for any deer that ever walked out to at least 200 yards. As I said before, the 338 Marlin's ballistics are in the same class as the old 348 and 358 Winchesters. The problem is, neither the 348 or 358 are suited to use in the Marlin action, as the 348 is physically too big for it, and the 358 is loaded to SAMMI pressures that are considered beyond the safe limit for Marlin's action. What other "old cartridge" would you suggest Marlin try that would be able to equal the 338's numbers while still being suited to use in their action ? The 20 some year old 356 Winchester is the only thing I can think of that would come close and that has already proven to be an abysmal "FLOP".

[GF.]

You're right - brain fart on the .32WinSpec as a 'light' plinker...

My point there being, though, what if you were to take that 170 grains up to a nice, round number somewhere north of 200 grains and loft it out there at 2400 or so? Sounds like one full-size can o 'whoop-ass, double-strength formula to me....

I'm kinda interested that you say that the Marlin action won't manage the pressures of the .358 - I don't keep up on these things, so I'm gonna take your word on it, but it surprises me that an action that will handle the Garrett/BuffaloBore/Cor-Bon loads wouldn't be OK with a round that sort of came & went some years ago as perhaps a victim of the high-pressure magnum craze.....

Anyway, let's take something that you say will work and look at the .356 - well, if that one was a 'flop', then what are the odds for a round that requires the use of one particular proprietary bullet, even though it's in a bore size for which there is a really good selection of styles, weights and manufacturers?

Seems to me that the only thing the .338 Marlin has going for it is the fact that you can run it through a Marlin lever action; in every other respect, it's a weak second to a .338 Federal/.338-08, and falls quickly into the dust behind a .338-06--and the bolt-actions will allow you to shoot anything from 160 grains to about 250 depending on which case you choose.

Different strokes and all that, of course, but I don't see this one going anywhere. A 20", welterweight octagonal barrel on a .32 WinSpec with a full-length magazine and a decent piece of wood, though.....:cool:

[Sabre]

You're right - brain fart on the .32WinSpec as a 'light' plinker...

My point there being, though, what if you were to take that 170 grains up to a nice, round number somewhere north of 200 grains and loft it out there at 2400 or so? Sounds like one full-size can o 'whoop-ass, double-strength formula to me....

I'm kinda interested that you say that the Marlin action won't manage the pressures of the .358 - I don't keep up on these things, so I'm gonna take your word on it, but it surprises me that an action that will handle the Garrett/BuffaloBore/Cor-Bon loads wouldn't be OK with a round that sort of came & went some years ago as perhaps a victim of the high-pressure magnum craze.....

Anyway, let's take something that you say will work and look at the .356 - well, if that one was a 'flop', then what are the odds for a round that requires the use of one particular proprietary bullet, even though it's in a bore size for which there is a really good selection of styles, weights and manufacturers?

Seems to me that the only thing the .338 Marlin has going for it is the fact that you can run it through a Marlin lever action; in every other respect, it's a weak second to a .338 Federal/.338-08, and falls quickly into the dust behind a .338-06--and the bolt-actions will allow you to shoot anything from 160 grains to about 250 depending on which case you choose.

Different strokes and all that, of course, but I don't see this one going anywhere. A 20", welterweight octagonal barrel on a .32 WinSpec with a full-length magazine and a decent piece of wood, though.....:cool:

Short answers to all of this GF. First, you'd never see the 32 special pushing a 200+ grain bullet at 2400 fps within the bounds of safe, traditional lever action pressure limits with any powder available today. It just plain doesn't have the case capacty and that's the end of the story. The 35 Remington has slightly greater case capacity and a better expansion ratio, yet the best the "hot rodders" have been able to get out of it within the 44,000 psi pressure ceiling generally accepted as the safe max. for the 336 action is about 2300 fps with a 200 grain bullet. Second, the 338 has significantly better downrange numbers than the 348 or 356 ever did because of Hornady's flex tip bullet with it's BC of .430. The 356 and 348 could have come close if they were ever loaded with spire point bullet's but they weren't because the technology didn't exist at the time. And third, I don't have a crystal ball but my feeling is that you are probably right in that the 338 will most likely be obsolete just like it's medium bore predecessors 20 years from now. Only time will tell of course but I never had any intentions of buying one anyway so it makes little difference to me one way or the other. Beside all of this is the fact that the 338 Marlin does generate SIGNIFICANTLY better downrange numbers than anything ever before offered for use in a traditional, tube fed lever action. For someone devoted to that type of rifle, it's probably the best thing going for heavy game like elk and moose at longish ranges. As for me personally, I done got all my experimentin' with different ca'tridges outta my system years ago and will continue to rely on my trusty ol' .30-30 for collecting my winters meat till the end of my days.

[GF.]

I guess the question I can't shake is this - why would anyone want a 'traditional, tube-fed lever action' rifle chambered for a round which, compared to the old stand-bys, has nothing of any consequence to offer at 'traditional, tube-fed lever action' ranges?

What's good about lever actions? Well, there is (arguably) a light & handy aspect - one you totally lose when you saddle one with a 24" barrel and a big-arse scope - and on the intangibles front, there's their general old-timeyness; that sense of doing things the same way GrandPaw did. Of course, the trouble there being that the way GrandPaw did things had nothing at all to do with plastic-tipped bullets and shooting at ranges where a scope & laser rangefinder are going to be pretty much required equipment

Wrong tool for the job, no?

But maybe you can tell me this... If I had a sharp-lookin', modern-steel repro of my wife's grandmother's grandfather's Win 1886 in .40-82, what do you think the ballistics could look like if a guy were of a mind to load it to the firewall?

I have a feeling that for any hunt where I'd want to use a lever gun, the BPCR ballistics would probably do me just fine, but since you seem to have ready access to a lot of data, it does make me wonder what might be possible out of those big old cases..... I guess the originals were in the range of 260-280 grains at something around 1400-1500 fps, btu I'd think that modern powders could ramp that up a bit.

But if I were ever to take the 1886 afield, you can bet your butt I wouldn't be thinking about scoping the old girl....

[kenjs1]

I bought a model 92 for the reason you mention. Wanted something up close without a scope for certain situations. There is a nice tie- in here that the Lever Revolution ammo for the 44mag shoots VERY well in that little rifle. Though for some reason it is more finicky to load into the tube than the Speers I was using.

[Hi Ball]

JBMI........Nice looking lever guns you bet!:cool:

Yep, I gotta stand in G.F. corner on creating more calibers in the gun world, when there are so many older calber's that do just fine taking big game animals.

I certainly do enjoy hunting with the 444 Marlin using those high dollar Hornady Leverevolution ammo :eek::eek: even though the price scares me into a dark corner. Anything bigger gets the attention of those hardcast Beartooth Bullets in the 325 grain.......they will stop a tank almost.;)

[Sabre]

I guess the question I can't shake is this - why would anyone want a 'traditional, tube-fed lever action' rifle chambered for a round which, compared to the old stand-bys, has nothing of any consequence to offer at 'traditional, tube-fed lever action' ranges?

I guess that all depends on the way you want to look at it. Using that train of thought, cartridges like the .30-30 and 32 Special should never have come to be. After all, they were the new, flat shooting, high velocity long range numbers of their day and really offered nothing over such old standby's as the .38-55 and 32-40 at so called "traditional tube fed lever action ranges". The new 308 and 338 Marlin cartridges just take things another step forward. As far as doing things "the way granpaw did 'em" I think it's important to note that granpaw most likely used iron sights, even if he hunted with a bolt action rifle. The bolt action pre-dates widespread use and acceptance of the scope sight by a good 50 years and early bolt actions were not designed with scope use in mind any more than early lever actions. As far as being the "wrong tool for the job", my Brother bought one of the .308 Marlin's last year and it shoot's circles around his Browning A-Bolt 7mm-08. So which is the "better tool" for sniping deer across a corn field, a tube fed, lever action 308 Marlin that groups under an inch at 100 yards all day long, or a bolt action 7mm-08 that's hard pressed to stay inside 1 3/4" ?

[GF.]

So which is the "better tool" for sniping deer across a corn field, a tube fed, lever action 308 Marlin that groups under an inch at 100 yards all day long, or a bolt action 7mm-08 that's hard pressed to stay inside 1 3/4" ?


Neither, most likely, though for the two you offered, the accuracy benefit of the Marlin offsets with the trajectory advantage of the 7-08 (given the right load.

I just figure hey, if you want to shoot across beanfields, get a beanfield rifle.

If you wanna sneak around in the woods, get a sneakinaroundinnawoods rifle.

If your brother likes his Marlin, then God bless him. I just don't get it

[Sabre]

I just don't get it

Sorry 'bout that GF, but you know what Ron White says, "YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID":p

[southtexas]

GF:

Just call Kenny Jarrett in South Carolina and ask him to build you a beanfield rifle on a Marlin lever action (maybe ask for a nice 257WM or 264WM).

I'm SURE he'd be happy to oblige!:D

[Sabre]

GF:

Just call Kenny Jarrett in South Carolina and ask him to build you a beanfield rifle on a Marlin lever action (maybe ask for a nice 257WM or 264WM).

I'm SURE he'd be happy to oblige!:D

Nobody ever said these new cartridges transformed the Marlin lever into a proper "beanfield rifle". What they DO ACCOMPLISH is to FINALLY elevate Marlin's traditional, tube fed lever actions to the level of performance that the Savage 99 and Browning BLR chambered for such as the .300 Savage .308 and 358 Win., have been delivering for decades. Anyone too STUPID to wrap their mind around that concept isn't worth the time and effort to argue the point with.

[southtexas]

STUPID...you must really like that word.

[Sabre]

STUPID...you must really like that word.

When it applies.

[southtexas]

Opps...walked into that one!:)

Ok, since we have established that I am not to quick on the uptake, or to use your terminology: stupid, I'm sure you will permit me to ask what is, to you, I'm sure, a stupid question:

Am I stupid because I used saterical hyperbole, which you obviously found offensive? Or am I stupid because I happen to agree with GF. That is, I would prefer to have a bolt action rifle for open country hunting, but am perfectly willing for you and your friend to use the weapon of your or his chioce?

[Sabre]

Opps...walked into that one!:)

Ok, since we have established that I am not to quick on the uptake, or to use your terminology: stupid, I'm sure you will permit me to ask what is, to you, I'm sure, a stupid question:

Am I stupid because I used saterical hyperbole, which you obviously found offensive? Or am I stupid because I happen to agree with GF. That is, I would prefer to have a bolt action rifle for open country hunting, but am perfectly willing for you and your friend to use the weapon of your or his chioce?

Both :rolleyes: and neither ;)

[southtexas]

Obviously a Democrat...

[Sabre]

obviously STUPID :eek: And if you're trying to win my vote for the HuntAmerica Asshole of the year award you can just forget it cuz GF already has that one all wrapped up !:D

[Indy]

obviously STUPID :eek: And if you're trying to win my vote for the HuntAmerica Asshole of the year award you can just forget it cuz GF already has that one all wrapped up !:D

Takes one to know one.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

We're having a vote for "Hunt America Asshole of the Year"?!?!?!?!?

Alan

[Bill Gunn]

Takes one to know one.

Indy...

You forgot to say "NA NEE NA NEE NA NA"


We're having a vote for "Hunt America Asshole of the Year"?!?!?!?!?

I found the "Hunt America Asshole of the Year" official song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i6OrOZwtmA

[Sabre]

Takes one to know one.

That was brilliant ! Did you think that up all by yourself, dumbass:confused: ?

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I found the "Hunt America Asshole of the Year" official song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i6OrOZwtmA

I will definitely be passing this one on to some really special folks Bill! Thanks!

Still Laughing.

Alan