Bullet construction

[AK-49]

There is a lot of talk regarding which cartridge for which big game animal. In my opionion bullet construction is far more important than the cartridge from which it originated from when comparing somewhat similar calibers.

[southtexas]

AK: I agree. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, it doesn't remember what was printed on the bottom of the cartridge.

[Altjaeger]

Ditto. That is why I like standard construction bullets like the core-lokt for whitetails. I fear in many cases premium bullets will fail to expand as well.

[Hi Ball]

I am a great believer in bullet expansion! Without it, you have nothing but a pass through shot and damage to tissue and vitals is kept to often a minimum. Thus you end up with a long tracking job and many times a lost trophy or meat supply for the freezer.

I like Nosler Partition bullets because they are a premium bullet but expand every time out the gate, to give that football size type of tissue damage inside the big game animal. Thus delivering all that kinetic energy to the target for the most part.:)

[GF.]

Expansion is good... up to a point. But then again...

JMO, when dealing with any bullet designed for hunting, there is a far greater likelihood of overexpansion than under.

Look at the flying ashtrays that the ammo mfrs are loading into the 300-gr. .45/70 loads. Or 12-ga. slugs, fer chrissakes! ML bullets, too....


:confused::confused::confused:

What part of a hole that's wide enough and deep enough to let you see daylight on the other side of the critter is somehow 'unsatisfactory'?


:confused::confused::confused:

Take that Partition, for instance. People swear by 'em, but if you hit a shoulder (or even the ribs of a nicely fattened deer) from fairly close, you can shear off the whole front end in the first inch or so of penetration, and then you're left with a bore-sized, flat-nosed bull-ette to do the rest of the work... And a lot of guys think that's just fine & dandy. And often as not, these same guys will say that something like an expanding copper solid such as the X-bullet is 'too hard' and doesn't expand 'enough'.

Hell, if it's transiting the chest at a larger diameter (and likely a higher velocity) than the shank of your Partition, and doing it more reliably with probably less meat damage up-front... then what on earth is not to like????:eek:

:confused:

There's nothing really 'wrong' with the plain old cup & core bullets, provided that the respective components don't part company on impact, but the only advantage that I can see of those vs. a copper monolithic is the cost of the damn things. In the milder loads, the coppers just aren't needed--but then again, they won't likely hurt anything, and they may be the better choice (in many respects) at the short ranges that I tend to shoot. No doubt they'll expand every bit as much as they were designed to do- no matter what I happen to hit - and a neat, smaller hole clean through is all I ask.


Most important is shot placement. Then making sure that you've matched the bullet to the game and range. How you get it there is pretty much irrelevant:cool:

[purple heart]

I'll stick to my old favorites- Hornady interlocks. They haven't let me down
yet in a number of calibers.:)

[GF.]

Does anybody put those into a factory load for my 7-08?

Herne has used them once or twice and liked 'em, so I might just give 'em a go myself, if I can find some....;)

[southtexas]

Hornady does:

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=a9dd50ccfa0b390f26c3b73f9258d823&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=53ee1cde93c4a430e98dd507689626df

[dave-t.]

Good Lord. Pricing on ammo has gone through the roof.:(

[Hi Ball]

Now talk about price manipulation! In the local gunstore, .380-auto was selling for $22 dollars (1 box per customer) a box of 50 for Blazer ammo. A box of 9mm Luger was $15 dollars......which has more bullet weight and more powder in the case.

Yes, I guess you could say that stores and ammo manufacturers are making a big time profit from the rest of us gun nuts.:rolleyes:

[GF.]

It's not that bad, Dave - hell, not even Cabela's charges full-price for that stuff... They sell the light mag for the list price of the regular...

Not that I'd be as likely to buy the light mag... I think if I were going for a non-standard load, it'd be the managed recoil stuff... Take a 7-08 down to 7-30 Waters levels, most likely....

Funny thing I noticed, though... or my .45/70, they sell bulk 'cowboy' loads with plain lead FNs for $195/100 rounds.

Buck ninety-five every time you squeeze the trigger.

Remington green box hunting loads are $35/box. Buck seventy-five each.

Neither one sounds like a cheap plinker load, but only a Gubmint employee would go for those 'buy-in-bulk savings' prices....

Near 'nuff to make me look into a reloading kit....

[Smokey]

I'm not as technical as a lot of you as I do not reload. I do have a RCBS press and accessories I bought about 35 years ago that I haven't started to use. In the past I would buy five to ten boxes of factory ammo at a time and from the same lot when on sale. I would then date the boxes and use the oldest first. So, I always had a good supply available. An example of what I have is when my son was sighting in his 30-06 last year for elk he said it was the first time he was using centerfire ammo that was not older then he was. He was 26 at the time.

For the most part I use the Remington Core-Lokt ammunition. It has worked great for me over the years on deer and elk. I always get a kick watching these hunting shows as the deer are hit, then jump and take off running. I do not see that much when we shoot game. Do the deer always fall where they stand? No, sometimes they run, but rarely out of sight. In most cases they just drop. The same for elk, only once we chased one over 100 yards.

I'm sure we are not any better shooters than anyone here. We do take our time to place our shots in the proper places. We never shoot them in the hind quarters no matter how big the racks are and we don't take shots length ways through a deer from the back. These bullets have worked well for us and I see no reason to change.

[Herne]

Smokey that is just so so true.

I don't know whether you know, but I stalked deer commercially for about 15 years. One saw and heard from all sorts of clients with all sorts of guns. At the end of the day, it boiled down to sticking it in the right place. Not all the magnums, horsepower nor bullet technology in the world gets anyone out of that.

Equally for my own shooting - inevitably mostly young bucks and does, on controls. I never used a clever bullet - Hornady Interlock, but the load was very accurate in each of the two guns. Heavyish for calibre and not really fast. Again, it was a matter of waiting for the shot, or making it, but in and out in front of the 10th rib. That produced a pile of consecutive one shot kills - every time a coconut, and one is talking about an awful lot of deer. Like you some ran some didn't but all were dead, and the number of extra shots were numbered in (much) less than the fingers on a hand each year, mainly when one found that an unseen obstruction had been clipped.(we shoot well later than you gents in the evening).

But you are so right - get close enough, hit it right and don't take fool shots, and you'll go home with the deer.

Define a fool shot ..... anything that isn't in and out in front of the 10th rib. ie substantially broadside. Why? Because it isn't taking the shortest possible route to the vitals. :)

[dave-t.]

GF and Highball- About 16yrs ago when I bought my first centerfire, I was shocked that it cost me nearly $18.00 for 20 shells of 300wm. Seemed aweful high at nearly $1.00 a shot, now if you can get by with staying under $2.00 per shot, you've found an excellent deal.

That right there is the main reason I picked up reloading this year. I ran through the stockpile I had, and in comparing prices, and thinking that over the next 30yrs that I plan to shoot they aren't going to get any cheaper.

10-12 boxes of ammo, or reloading supplies were comparable in price. If I was an older man, I probably would have just bought the 10-12 boxes. If I play it smart, I'll still be able to sell the press, etc. when I've had enough.

But you all know about the plans of mice and men. ;)

[Bushman]

GF, I personally think that Hornady is on the wrong track by only offering that 7mm-08 139 grain Interlock in the Light Magnum load. I gunned a few deer with it and would buy it again if it was in their milder Custom series. I thought it was too destructive on my close in deer. A big buck's heart strained through my fingers when I field dressed it after I shot it with a 165 grain Interlock Custom load out of my .308 and that is good enough bullet performance for me. The whole reason that I went to a 7mm-08 from a 7mm RM was NOT to get magnum results on deer. For just a normal priced factory loaded deer bullet, I would look at a Federal Fusion 140 grain load before I would use that Light Magnum load again.

I shot a lot of deer with the Nosler Partitions early on and like Hi Ball writes, they blow the stuffings out of the inside of a deer. What I didn't like was that they go in small and that back half comes out small. My deer did lots of their bleeding inside and blood trails were sparse at best. Football profile wound channel is how he put it. Myself, I have preferred a cone shaped wound channel that puts some blood on the ground from a larger diameter exit wound. I like a quarter to fifty cent piece size exit wound size and what I got with Partitions was more dime size. Thick winter coat, muscle and fat would close down those little ones. There was always a dead deer at the end of the trail, but as dim light closed in, where is the trail was always the issue with the Partitions. It didn't seem to make much difference if I'd gunned them with a 7mm-08, .308, 7mm RM or a .300 WM. Smaller exits are why I don't use them any more.

[Herne]

Bushman I agree about the Interlock. Its a superb bullet at sensible velocities, but I did a fair chunk of close in shooting with a 257R loaded to full throttle in 100g. Which is trotting on a bit - and close.

That bullet was on the margins, with a lot of expansion.

At the end of the day its a cup and draw bullet - and why does one need the speed this side of 400 yards?

Much wiser to operate the bullet firmly in the middle of its performance envelope, and leave the speed to those who have difficulty shooting straight and think it might help.

What its supposed to help I have no idea, but they keep saying it does, so I imagine it must.

[GF.]

A least the dust plume the bullet kicks up on impact lets them know how badly they've missed... So I guess there's that, and the fact that the faster bullets don't leave them in suspense too long :D

I hear ya, Bush... I knew somebody around here had used it in the light mag and thought it was overkill.. And honestly, I bought my 7-08 for exactly the same reason you did. I can't complain about the on-game performance of my (long gone) 7Mag... since I never fired it at anything with a pulse... but what it did to my shoulder was nothing I could see paying any extra for :rolleyes:

Seriously, though... If I hunt with that rifle any time soon, I think I'll be using the 140 grain managed recoil loads, just trying to take the noise level down a notch, and maybe there'll be a little less bruising on the meat... Honestly, at the ranges I take all my shots, I could use lever gun in .45 LC and never worry about holdover, point blank range or any o' that Bullistical Stuff :D

[Bushman]

I actually went up to a 160 Nosler Partition in my 7mm RM to avoid a lot of bloodshot meat on deer I suspected that I would see with a 140 grain at something over 3100 fps if I hit meat. Then like an epiphany it hit me literally in between the eyes when the recoil compressed my down parka and my forehead stopped the scope. I got the buck, but right then I said to myself, you need to build yourself a smaller deer rifle. The RM has not been deer hunting since.

[dave-t.]

Bushman, same reason I shoot 180 Interlocks out of my 300wm, to keep speed under 3k fps. I shot a few deer with 150's and one with a ballistic tip and decided that I needed a less destructive bullet, and a big part of that will cure itself if you have less speed to begin with.

The other issue I have about the 300wm, is that when you have an accurate rifle that you are very familiar with, but is on the big side, is it smarter to abandon it and start from scratch, or to use it and load it in a way that will fit your needs? I went with the latter.

I also find it handy that my 16yr old rifle and favorite load will be my 'go to' for elk this season. No guessing on how the load will shoot, how to sight in, or how to hold for a farther than normal shot. Familiarity has its advantages.

[GF.]

Just the same.... I'm pretty happy being familiar with a rifle that doesn't knock the snot out of me every time I touch it off.... :D

[dave-t.]

Those guys in Africa get by shooting much bigger guns and shooting many more animals than I do every year. I've survived it this long, and don't see it getting any worse than it already is. :cool:

[GF.]

Ford! .......... Chevy!


Blonde!.......... Redhead!


Remchester! .......... Winnington!



Tastes Great! .......... Less Filling!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Hi Ball]

LoL there gf

[Rick Teal]

GF:

What do you mean?

Red Heads are always better looking!!!!! :cool::D

[GF.]

Good to see you, Rick... Where've you been?

[Chuck S]

The bullet is the key after the load and lastly the cartridge. Of course the rifle or the shooter/both or conditions can negate all that. For velocities between 2300 and about 2700 I've gotten good results from Hornadys, Sierras and Noslers. They all behave similarly when plowing through soft tissue and a rib or two with the Nosler being more apt to exit although the hole might be smallish. I'm speaking of using bullets from about 100 gns in a 243 up to 180 gns in a .30 caliber rifle. To save meat/heart/etc I've gone to Combined Research (Part Gold/Failsafes) bullets or Barnes except when wanting a heavy for caliber bullet in the .308, 7x57, or my 30-06. When things get dicey momentum trumps energy and velocity can be detrimental to your health. :eek: Lower speed and big stout bullets are the bet then.

For flat shooting, longer distances, applications, specifically Pronghorns or prairie Mule Deer, I favor the Sierra Boat Tails but am trying the new 130 BT Barnes this year for Antelope first and then possibly Mulies. For Elk I'll be using Grand Slams most likely as I have a bunch loaded already but if not them, then back to the 150 gn Partition Golds.:cool:

I'm also in the market for some of the bonded core bullets to try out to see if they don't remedy the smallish exit holes. I'm sure some Swift A Frames would do the trick but they are way too expensive for my beer budget!:(

[Hi Ball]

Chuck S., You might want to give those TBBC bullets a go! Trophy Bonded Bear Claws are one great bullet but not really needed for harvesting deer. I use them in Africa because they are a premium bullet and work great on all plains game. They are a great "Cheap" insurance policy to bring home your trophy set of horns.:)

Now getting back to just deer or antelope hunting, Remington makes one of the best overall bullets a hunter could possibly use to bring down his or her buck. However, if your speed goat hunting at ranges over 350 yards, I would advise to try the Nosler Accubond bullet, great B.C. and very accurate too.:D

[Chuck S]

Have to admit that I've let the prices put me off of these two ( A-Frames and TBBC) but have no doubt they are superb bullets. Has anyone used the 200 or 220 Nosler Part at somewaht less than maximum loading in an 06, 308, or 300 mag. I suspect that they like my Grand Slams will give better, less explosive results loaded down somewhat and this combined with the heavy bullet should penetrate and keep on penetrating after leaving a sizable hole.

[Bushman]

I haven't seen any weight Nosler Partitions act much different from each other. 140's out of my 7mm-08, 160's out of my 7mm RM, 165's out of my .308 and 180's out of my .300 WM all did the same thing in the deer and elk that I used them for. Small going in, blew up in the middle and smaller than I wanted coming out the back side. I know what you mean about the price of ammo. Loaded Federal Barnes 140 TSX bullets for my 7mm-08 were $49.95 a box yesterday at Gander Mountain. There was a guy looking at a Weatherby there and I told him to price Weatherby ammo before he went for one of their cartridges over something more common. One of these years they are going to re-do the packaging for center fire cartridges to 5 or 10 packs like they have done with the turkey loads.

[Chuck S]

One thing that has come to light over the past decade for me is that slower is often better and with slower you can control the expansion/explosiveness of a bullet and make it behave more like a so-called premium bullet. This works particularly well with bonded core bullets that will often give you a neatly mushroomed, near 97% of the bullet exiting while blowing a nice sized hole on the way out.

[manwithaplan]

Unless I have a very good chance of shooting over 200 yards I really prefer 220 grain corelokts in my 06. They always expand alot and they always break bones and penetrate leaving 2 holes for a better blood trail.

[GF.]

Lord, that sounds like overkill even to me!

This thought popped into my head last night or this morning... not sure why.

Though not a large sample size, the few deer I've shot with Sierra 150s in a 7-08 factory load have all reared up on their hind legs at the hit, and I've never seen that with any other bullet; 1 was a textbook heart shot, 1 was double-lung a bit far back into a little paunch (mis-read the angle :mad: ) and one was that fringey shot to the windpipe that lead to the longest, toughest trailing job I've ever been a part of. And these shots are all in the 15-35 yard bracket, so pretty close to MV and probably north of 2700 fps. I got exits on all three, but I also got bits of jacket floating around on the first two.

Anybody have a theory on why I got that reaction?

They do produce a very quick kill when you put them where they belong, but so does everything else. Placed right - by which I mean avoiding heavier bits of muscle - they're still fairly destructive, but at least I don't have to worry about any ricochets from up in a tree....

I'm hoping not to use any bullets on deer this year, but I do hope to someday settle on One Bullet for that rifle, that I can use for anything from big Elk on down...

[Chuck S]

In the end analysis it's the accuracy of the shot coupled with being able to reach an animals vitals with the shot. You can do it with a fast, stoutly constructed bullet all the way down to a momentum heavy, heavy for caliber load like the 220 above or even a 240 grainer. The expansion is easier to predict and control with the slow and heavy and due to the added momentum penetration is almost always awesome with a superb blood trail. For sure a premium bullet such as the Barnes TSX in 130 gns or more will most always fully penetrate a deer cross chest, even if the shoulders get in the picture but so will a Remington CoreLoct or Hornady in 220 grain adn the cost is much lower.


Recoil is often bad with heavy bullets but surprisingly you can load them down to lower recoil and still get that great penetration although the mushrooming might suffer a bit.

[manwithaplan]

A 30-06 with 220's is still a pretty mild shooting gun. If a grown man can't handle that he should just take up bird watching. A 12 gauge with a heavy pheasant load has a harder kick for **** sake

[GF.]

Shoot a lot of heavy bird loads off of a bench, do you?

:rolleyes:

And please mind your language.....

[manwithaplan]

Yes a matter a fact I do shoot heavy bird loads off a bench some over 2 ounces.

[rimrock]

I think a great deal of the discussions on bullet construction,expansion penetration etc. are... when you think about... it based on the fact that many guys select calibers that are smaller than ideal for the intended application and then they are trying to make up for the lack of bullet weight sectional density and cross sectional area of the projectile thru some magical improved bullet design. that and they don,t have a clue about trajectory or game anatomy ,now the reason is based on increasing velocity without increasing recoil in many cases , and lack of experience actually hunting and judging ranges in the field and the fact that many guys can,t estimate ranges or shoot accurately worth a damn, past the point where they can hold dead on the target.
easily 75%-80% or more of all big game is killed at under 300 yards, so super velocity is not required
think about it! is theres not much in the way of game a caliber with decent weight and caliber like a 44 mag, 35 whelen, 340 weatherby, 375 H&H,378 weatherby, 416 Remington or 458 LOTT can,t kill effectively within its ideal range, obviously its recoil, and possibly muzzle blast that are the major the factors, your tying to avoid, because at least one of those calibers will effectively kill any game with decent bullets
select a decent hornady, speer or similar cup.core bullet in a 240 plus sectional density in those calibers thats generally a 250grain weight plus and you can concentrate on shot placement more than bullet construction.
think about the MILLIONS of bison, deer and ELK killed in the 1800s-1930s when most hunters had never seen a caliber that pushed a bullet past 3000fps and many bullets were cast lead or cup/core designs
in most cases if you can,t get into 300 yards or closer before firing,or learn to accurately judge ranges and hold correctly for longer shots, at big game I think your just not hunting hard enough and relying mostly on equipment and velocity rather than hunting skill.
really how hard is it to sight in a rifle, print out a trajectory chart and get a range finder and use it in the field if your serious about longer shots, or just get in closer before firing
now IM not about to suggest you can,t, as an example use a 257 Roberts or 6.5mm Swedish, on most big game if you want too, and kill most game very effectively but at some point the larger calibers will prove more effective

[Chuck S]

manwithaplan
wrote: "A 30-06 with 220's is still a pretty mild shooting gun. If a grown man can't handle that he should just take up bird watching. A 12 gauge with a heavy pheasant load has a harder kick for **** sake"

I've seen grown men flinch shooting many different calibers some high recoil and some not. At any rate a flinch isn't what a good hunter is after. When looking at recoil look at both the round and the rifle. Weight of the rifle and round, stock design, weight of powder and lead and more add up to recoil. I've a 6lb plus 06 that will slap the ever loving snot out of you should you put a 220 gn full bore load in it. In fact the formula shows it has more recoil that a 150 gn bullet out of a ten lb scoped Weatherby! Even given one of todays fancy shock absorbing recoil pads I'm betting that rifle will hurt most grow men. Back to what I said but let me add a bit more. Lower the velocity and the harsh recoil goes down by leaps and bounds. Additionally you get the benefit of shooting a heavy round that will not come apart, distort, etc due to high velocity. Max penetration from typical big game 308 caliber rounds peak out somewhere around 1700-1800 ft per second velocity due to this factor.

[GF.]

Chuck - you really think there's a lot to be gained by attempting to reason with anyone smart enough to shoot 2 oz. bird loads off of a bench? :hmmmm:

Bears repeating:


I think a great deal of the discussions on bullet construction,expansion penetration etc. are... when you think about... it based on the fact that many guys select calibers that are smaller than ideal for the intended application and then they are trying to make up for the lack of bullet weight sectional density and cross sectional area of the projectile thru some magical improved bullet design.

If you go small bore, you'll probably want more expansion. If you want reliable penetration, you have to go for controlled expansion. And the faster the bullet, the harder it becomes to engineer a bullet that offers 'enough' of each.

Like the motorheads say...

There's no replacement
For displacement

But within reason; if a guy has a personal recoil limit of 150 grains from an '06 case, he's (IMO) better off shooting a .270 than a .30 because of sectional density and as a plus, the velocity is such that it doesn't require a metallurgical miracle to create a bullet that will provide a nice mushroom without blowing to pieces on impact.

And bear in mind that flinches are not a physical result of recoil, but a mental one. When I shot a lot - maybe a brick of .22/month - I could shoot my 7 Mag without flinching; but when I first got the 7, and before I owned the .22, I had a flinch so bad that I once closed the bolt on a spent shell (not realizing) and when the trigger broke, I opened my eyes and was looking straight at the ground. That's what happens when a guy who weighs 135 pounds dripping wet starts his shooting career with a belted round - he gets belted around but good!

Nowadays I get to shoot my rifles so rarely that while I can still break a clay bird every time - shooting my 7-08 offhand at 60 meters - I really can't group worth a damn off of a bench any more. If I get inside an inch at that same range, I'm wasting ammo after that. But FWIW, a .243 wouldn't probably do me any better, and I'd have to give up nearly 1/3 or even 1/2 of my bullet weight plus switch to more expensive bullets to do it. No, thanks....

[Bushman]

GF, you are forgetting about the male ego that is more easily bruised than a shoulder. Wanna see my magnum? I help a lot of guys during our annual sight in days at the range and it is an exercise in diplomacy to suggest that a lunch plate size group might be the result of a loose scope mount instead of shooting with one's eyes closed and teeth clenched in a grimness. From my observation, I would say that a .30-06 is on the upper limit of what most guys can handle and they would be better served with a .30-30 or a .300 Savage in these parts. My kid wanted a "deer rifle" and what does he go out and buy but a .300 Weatherby Magnum! That thing unfocuses his eyeballs every time he shoots it and clears the benches on either side of us at the range. He has yet to shoot a deer over 50 yards away with the thing and needs 180 grain TBBC bullets to avoid making hamburger on the hoof.

Actually I think sometimes that little guys handle recoil off the bench better than bigger guys do because they move. Generally smaller guys are in better shape too and muscle takes recoil better than adipose tissue where the only thing solid behind the rifle is a shoulder bone.

[dave-t.]

There are a variety of benefits to using a magnum, but recoil ain't one of them. As an old football coach used to tell me, "You're going to get hit either way, so you may as well catch the ball." Same with a rifle, you're going to get kicked the same whether you hit or miss, so you may as well have the focus and mental toughness to make it count. Your shoulder is taking the same hit either way.

Second is that we really have to put into perspective what we are shooting, and think on what real magnums and big guns are. There are guys hunting with 450's and 470's launching 500grn projectiles and hitting their mark, being effective on game. Buffalo hunters could shoot 90+ rounds of 45-90, and 50-110 shells in a few hours time, and make those shots accurately at some unbelieveable distances.

Shooting a 7mm, 300, .338 mag, is not nearly as punnishing when you look at things that way. We are talking about medium bores after all. Yes they kick, and no you're not going to blow your retna's out by using them.

[Chuck S]

I don't put a lot of stock into perspective when it comes to recoil. Rifle weight, stock design and more works wonders but all too often I've observed far too many of those who shoot the 7mm Mag and up with the dreaded disease magnuitus! The 338 Win Mag can be particularly vicious as all too often it's set up on a lighter rifle where as the 375 H&H is rarely found in a light one.

Focus may help as can mental toughness but in the end recoil and ultra loud noises take their toll and the shooter develops a flinch and with that all accuracy is gone!

[Bushman]

Chuck, I sometimes wonder if the firearm industry isn't headed in the wrong direction with the lighter is better craze. When I was growing up it was unheard of finding a normal bolt action rifle that was much under 7.75 pounds without a scope. Now with the advent of carbon fiber, injection molding, aluminum, magnesium, CNC machining, fluteing... they can make rifles extremely light weight and in larger cartridge chamberings. Back in the 70's and 80's I spent some major money for Kevlar stocks and light weight barrels to get scoped bolt actions into the 7-8 pound area with scopes. Now that kind of weight is commonplace even with wooden stocked production rifles. Every action has an opposite and equal reaction which transfers to a higher degree of felt recoil in a lighter weight rifle. While I am not unhappy with a 7# scoped 7 Mag. because I carry it way more than I shoot it, that rifle and it's 7mm-08 safe mate aren't the most stable rifles to try to hold offhand.

Dave, great quote about going to get hit anyway, so you might as well catch the ball. I'm going to use that one the next time I'm helping my kid sight in his .300 Weatherby. Helping a young man sight in an iron sighted H&R 45-70 on the range one day, the kid said "It's hard to see the target through these tears!" One of the most honest things that anyone out there has ever said to me when sighting in a hard kicker.

[Chuck S]

You are exactly right as lighter rifles equate to more recoil. A long time ago after a punishing day shooting my 300 weatherby I figured out that I needed more padding between me and it! The next day found me shooting with a diy recoil pad I put together for bench and line work. It consisted of a wide piece of leather about like the shooting patch you see on fancy sweaters. I glued to the front of it a smaller piece of a sleeping pad foam. That kept the nastiness from the rifle calmed down a bit. Later I found the Lead Sled for sighting in or testing rifle accuracy was the ticket. Meanwhile I was steadily down sizing in the kick department. Shooting heavy loads in a 45-70 or any of those bigger cannons is not my cup of tea and I've found that to be the case for many who say that recoil doesn't faze them. A quick game of shooting without the shooter knowing whether or not there's a cartridge in the chamber will convince most flinchers that they need to tone it down a notch.

[Hi Ball]

Sometime ago, I got into a real Donny Brook about using the .223 Black rifle to hunt animals that should be hunted with something bigger in bullet and more kinetic energy. Well, I was jumped on by several who say the .223 is KING OF THE WOODS!!! I am not buying that no matter what anyone group of people believes the "HOG WASH"
I personally pick the caliber to the big game animal intended, then select the weight of bullet and once again decide what type of bullet I am going to use.

I remember once upon a time, going after a whitetail buck when the season opened using my newly aquired .300 Win mag with a 150 grain bullet. I got my buck but left the front half in the woods. Now that tiny little 150 grn bullet just about destroyed the buck, who was shot at around 40 yards. It would have been better for that deer to be standing 200 yards away I thought to myself later in the day. A lesson I learned the hard way!

[GF.]

Hi-Ball - is it really you? Where and how the heck have you been?

Or have I been duped by a computer glitch again?

[Hi Ball]

G.F. I gotta tell you in the flesh it is really yours truely!!! I got knocked down a time or two but always seem to keep coming back savy. Thanks for asking by the way I hope you nad yours has been doing well.

OK listen up folks, especially those that don't really know ok. Now with todays advances in weapons and things that go hand and hand with them, RECOIL is of no big concern because there are indeed several ways to deal with "recoil". You can get yourself a Magnum PAST RECOIL PAD and it will take away over 50% of that recoil. There are new materials out now days that BUTT PADS are made of and they too will cut that recoil down to 40%. A combination of both recoil pads and butt pads will certainly tame any heavy hitting gun that recoils more than the shooter wishes.

I have used Muzzle Brakes in he past but don't really care for them, especially if firing the rifle from a prone position, it is dangerous to do so. It can blow debris into your face and eyes!!! However, from the bench they work fine, just make a heck of a lot of "noise & muzzle blast" to deal with for others around you. I have also used the Mag Na Port service which helps reduce recoil about 15% and certainly does reduce "Muzzle Jump" by as much as 70%. I have worn 2 of those "Past Recoil Pads" in a hunting vest for over 11 years now and they do he job in spades (great results lowing recoil) especially when shooting my DGR rifles or my lever guns with heavy loads in them, those being the 45/70 and the .444 Marlin, both using heavy cast bullets. So in closing, if your shying away from a magnum caliber because of recoil, best you rethink your thoughts shooters or hunters, there are ways to tame that Big Cat called RECOIL!!!

[Bushman]

Hi Ball, sure good to see you posting again. I think that as much as anything it is the noise of those magnums that makes people a little jumpy. My #2 son shoots a .300 Weatherby Magnum which I know is some less than what you've got, but it is enough to clear the benches off either side of us at the range. He was shooting that at sight in days this year and #1 son was driving into the parking lot and he said that he sure could pick that one out from the other boomers. I plug and muff at the range, but I don't do it out hunting and I don't think that many people do. I think it was Sidekick that made a great analogy for shooting to something that his football coach said. "You are going to get hit anyway, so you might as well catch the ball."